/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>689364

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Romanides#Heaven_and_Hell

According to Romanides, the Orthodox Church teaches that both Heaven and Hell are being in God's presence,[27][29] which is being with God and seeing God, and that there is no such place as where God is not, nor is Hell taught in the East as separation from God.[29] One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are being in God's presence, as this presence is punishment and paradise depending on the person's spiritual state in that presences.[27][30] For one who hates God, to be in the presence of God eternally would be the gravest suffering.[27][30][30] Aristotle Papanikolaou [31] and Elizabeth H. Prodromou [32] wrote in their book Thinking Through Faith: New Perspectives from Orthodox Christian Scholars that for the Orthodox: Those theological symbols, heaven and hell, are not crudely understood as spatial destinations but rather refer to the experience of God's presence according to two different modes.[33]

The saved and the damned will both experience God's light. However, the saved will experience this light as Heaven, while the damned will experience it as Hell.[30][34][35][36][37][38][39] Theories explicitly identifying Hell with an experience of the divine light may go back as far as Theophanes of Nicea. According to Iōannēs Polemēs, Theophanes believed that, for sinners, "the divine light will be perceived as the punishing fire of hell".[40]

>>689372

That being said I don't like Romanides in general, but on some points he's good, like heaven/hell.

Until our death, we have prefigurations of Heaven and of Hell in our lives. God lets the sun shine on both the righteous and the wicked, and lets the rain pour on both the righteous and the wicked. These are to push us to repentance and faith so that we may be saved.

As to the nature of Hell (and by Hell I assume we are talking about Gehenna)… All evil will be eternally destroyed. Christ will finally order every created thing under Him then order Himself under the Father so that all things may be complete. Every knee will bow to God. The actual Gehenna is described as the second death, as eternal destruction, as eternal punishment, as eternal torment, as the river of fire proceeding from God.

What form then does the Gehenna take? Is it eternal torment? But then how is God successful in His plan if some of those He has created bearing His image are eternally condemned? Is it annihilation? But then how does that not make God work against good, since He has declared all things to be good and beautiful? Is it purgatorial? But then how is this fire "eternal" in the same sense the Kingdom of God is "eternal", since both terms are used by Christ to describe them? Is it maybe semi-purgatorial, in that the evil part of creature is destroyed but the good part remains and they enter the Kingdom of God eternally maimed? But how is this consistent with theosis, or with how evil has no real existence of its own?

In the end we'll only know the exact nature of these things when, unfortunately for the condemned, they come upon us. For now we need to remember that God wills for all men to be saved, and so we must pray for their salvation and show them the light of Christ through our carrying out a Christian life daily. And we need to remember that Hell is a fate we must all avoid at any cost if we truly want to call ourselves disciples of Christ and friends of God.

I personally lean toward hope for universalism (because I heard a homily at my parish that was purgatorial universalist) but I don't think it's important to try to understand God's goodness in relation to Hell. Understand it in relation to what is before our eyes first.

>It's like the order is struggle in life, and then unspeakable damnation for eternity, rather than at least a life filled with pleasure, following which is unspeakable damnation for eternity, as with the apparent example of Jesus' parable of the rich man and the beggar.

God knows the heart of every individual. If we feel sorrowful and merciful toward somebody who has suffered throughout their life and been on the side of the oppressed, but died in unbelief and sin, how much more does God feel this way toward them? Are we more merciful and loving than God?

We cannot know how those around us will be judged. God will judge with that perfect justice that we cannot come close to. So don't think so much about it and focus on your own salvation instead. The saints say several times that we may have some surprises at the final judgment.

>>689378

Hebrews 6 mentions eternal judgement.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Matthew 25 mentions the virgins in Jesus' parable asking for a door to be opened, and the bridegroom says that he doesn't know them

And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

These verses seem to imply some kind of separation that is eternal, as in never ending.

Also, God being omniscient means that He knows the end of everything from the beginning, including people's fates. A creator knowing that his creation is going to suffer continually and eternally in the end, but creating it anyway also doesn't seem right to me. I think that Paul discusses this some, but he seems to end up saying something like, God is God and a man is but a man, and God can do what He wants to do.

What you say makes sense, though. Thanks for your input.

I believe it's all connected to the human existential experience as creations of God, if God is the source of all Life, then we must act within our role as designed by our Creator. When we deviate from this role, we become unrecognisable to the Creator and His answer to us shall be at meeting: I never knew you. When you choose to love the world, you choose to worship creation rather than the Creator. You reject your identity as a servant of the Creator, forming some sort of spiritual feedback loop unto your own self (the worm dieth not), and cut yourself off from the source of Life. You dam yourself from the Fountain of Life. Or damn yourself. As a result, although you have eyes, you are blind in outer darkness. You have a mouth, yet you gnash your teeth on nothing. You have ears, but all you can hear is weeping from loneliness and torment. Your soul burns in embarrassment in having been created, rejecting your God-given identity which gave you eternal life and free will in exchange for pursuing pleasure in unrighteousness in your fallen state at the whim of the sinful drives of the flesh, you have paradoxically chosen to be a beast (metaphorically on all fours like a dog) rather than a child of God, and flesh perishes, but the soul exists forever.

Hell is empty, my friend

>>689372

This fits in well with typical near death experiences where they describe Gods light as "penetrating" and exposing every action and thought for all to see. Those who had too many sins were filled with intense shame and regret and sought to escape the light of God by retreating into dark crevices filled with other souls who could not stand the light of God from exposing their true nature. This is also the Biblical view if you read carefully.

>Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them. It is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret. But everything exposed by the light becomes visible—and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.

>And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

>>689364

I suggest reading C. S. Lewis's the Great Divorce for a healthy perspective on the matter.

Real hell is being turned away from God. Not being able to be close to him ever again anymore. That is the place of ultimate darkness and pain.

>>689372

its still hell and eternal suffering, no matter 'where' it is

as of lately more and more i have come to delight and love the idea of eternal hell. as time goes on it sounds sweet and beautiful to me actually. as i see my own sinfulness and wickedness, i see these traits also more deeply entrenched in other people as well. and for these unrepentant people nothing could be sweeter and more beautiful than eternal hell. to me it's not even the so called stereotypical evil type person that i think truly goes to hell and suffers but it's the lukewarm, the couldn't care less, the apathetic.

i've started to see more and more clearly how truly vile and disgusting being lukewarm is. how utterly evil being apathetic truly is, it is truly demonic and the devil rejoices in it. these people get so many chances to change their ways, and they respond with apathy and what's more than that, in some sort of a paradoxical way they actually propagate and proselytize apathy and lukewarmness. they seek to corrupt and destroy by this way, and they lie to themselves that they're doing nothing wrong, or worse that nothing really matters. they think they can do whatever they want, and it will be all good anyways. even the people who presume they will go to heaven, who are terrible in itself, the ones who are even worse are people who simply don't even care about any sort of afterlife, they are totally apathetic towards it. for as st. paul was zealous at least despite being wrong, at least he was hot or cold, not lukewarm, prior to his conversion. the most disgusting people are lukewarm and just don't give a pooh.

it's hard for many people to understand just truly how completely disgusting this is. it's like the most vile people in the world go behind your eyes every day and you don't notice it. According to St. Faustina, this is what our Lord said to her:

The last day intention, according to Jesus' message to St. Faustina, is the most difficult of all: to pray for the people who are lukewarm and indifferent. Jesus described those people as follows:

These souls cause Me more suffering than any others; it was from such souls that My soul felt the most revulsion in the Garden of Olives. It was on their account that I said: "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass Me by." The last hope of salvation for them is to flee to My Mercy."

I have increasingly been able to see this more and more clearly, and for these people, I am so grateful that there is an eternal hell. For God is Justice and this is beautiful. I think it's harder for people to accept when they are more blinded by such things, and probably I hope I will be able to see things even more clearly as time goes on, but I really think Hell is a beautiful and fitting judgement for these people. The cross is an open and free gift, and they don't care, and they think that nothing matters, because they want nothing to matter, so they can serve themselves. They will soon see what matters and what doesn't. The depressing thing to me is if so many people who live like this and so revoltingly deceive themselves that nothing matters and are drunk with the wine of apathy, will also truly get what they want at the expense of all justice and logic, to have nothing that matters, especially when they were showered with gifts and blessings, freely from the Lord, just somuch as they would lift a little finger to turn to Him. Hell is truly beautiful to the Saints, I am sure.

>>690895

>I love that people get damned

wow, such charity

>>690200

Psalm 139:8

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

>>690917

That doesn't seem to be hell as the Second Death

>>690930

This verse is foremost about Omnipresence of God.

>>690200

This is true relationally. In the second death, we are forever cut off from being able to appreciate God's beauty and grace.

At the same time… http://silouanthompson.net/2008/08/river-of-god/

>>690913

you are saying you don't love Gods judgements? Aquinas said that it will be to the Saints delight to see people in Hell. How on earth really do you want non repentant people to go to Heaven? Now *that* is disgusting. You have no idea of what charity or love is if you think that God's judgements aren't the most beautiful and supreme. But they really are. The idea of unrepentant people burning forever in Hell is totally beautiful.

>>690936

>Aquinas said

I dont care

>>690936

I thought that Paul said that he would take the place of his people in hell if he could, or something along those lines

>>690936

There exist more saints than Thomas Aquinas.

St Isaac the Syrian:

>What is a merciful heart? It is a heart on fire for the whole of creation, for humanity, for the birds, for the animals, for demons, and for all that exists. By the recollection of them the eyes of a merciful person pour forth tears in abundance. By the strong and vehement mercy that grips such a person’s heart, and by such great compassion, the heart is humbled and one cannot bear to hear or to see any injury or slight sorrow in any in creation. For this reason, such a person offers up tearful prayer continually even for irrational beasts, for the enemies of the truth, and for those who harm her or him, that they be protected and receive mercy. And in like manner such a person prays for the family of reptiles because of the great compassion that burns without measure in a heart that is in the likeness of God.

>>690936

Also, those are some spicy hot takes. Talk to your priest about it, at least make sure that your interpretation is indeed acceptable according to Catholic theology, and profitable for salvation.

>>690939

Paul said that he wishes he could separate himself from Christ to intercede for his fellow unbelieving Jews.

>>690946

>at least make sure that your interpretation is indeed acceptable according to Catholic theology, and profitable for salvation.

Well, thomism was one of the primary school of thought in Catholicism (Not sure about current situation), so it is valid for them. But still I find it very unhealthy, considering that Christ's last words on the cross were "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." about people who were mocking and laughing at them.

There was one sadist in some thread several weeks or months ago, who followed same thought and openly said that he wanted to go to heaven so that he could see suffering, rage, hatred and torment of the damned.

>>690949

>about people who were mocking and laughing at them.

*at Him

typo

>>690949

Thomism doesn't mean blindly following Aquinas in everything though. I'd argue that the idea that the bliss of those in heaven is to enjoy the suffering of those in hell has never been *the* mainstream idea in the Roman Church, even if it came up several times.

And today I'm not aware of anybody who seriously believes that. While there aren't the same trends about Gehenna as there are in Orthodoxy, the idea that those in Heaven are happy about the suffering of those in Hell seems to be extremely niche.

>>690951

I dont know. Maybe this thing is more common on chan boards or Internet Christianity in general? I also never met similar Catholic. And there are people like bishop Barron so there's that.

>>689364

It's a false presupposition to think suffering = bad and pleasure = good. Transcend the carnal mind. Psalm 119:71

>>689364

What condemned the rich man? It was his walking by Lazarus. Would you deny Lazarus justice? God does not only defend the oppressed, He vindicates them. To separate God from the reality of Hell is to make God indifferent, which the Scriptures testify He is not. Our deeds have eternal consequences. Only grace can save us. Pray and act.

>>690936

>Now everything is known the more for being compared with its contrary, because when contraries are placed beside one another they become more conspicuous. Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

>A thing may be a matter of rejoicing in two ways. First directly, when one rejoices in a thing as such: and thus the saints will not rejoice in the punishment of the wicked. Secondly, indirectly, by reason namely of something annexed to it: and in this way the saints will rejoice in the punishment of the wicked, by considering therein the order of Divine justice and their own deliverance, which will fill them with joy. And thus the Divine justice and their own deliverance will be the direct cause of the joy of the blessed: while the punishment of the damned will cause it indirectly.

tl; dr: the sights of Hell make it clear what is it that the saints have won, and their "enjoyment"of it is indirect. Aquinas didn't encourage sadism.

>>690984

It's moreso the severity of the justice you speak of.

It's one thing for a punishment of a great period of time, and another for one that's eternal

>>691002

What's the condition of a soul that loves neither God nor neighbor? Would you have God save such a person? To do so would be to remove anything that's left of them. You might say, well, wouldn't you warn the living of that fate? That's what the rich man said. I'll leave it as an exercise for you to look up how Abraham responded. Check Luke 16.

>>691012

>Would you have God save such a person?

Yes >>690949

>considering that Christ's last words on the cross were "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

>>691016

One who neglects those in need cannot be said to not know what he does. Our Lord's statement applies to all men, as the sin of killing Christ was not passed like that of Adam, but forgiven. We can pray for forgiveness of the wicked, but we must also warn them of the ends of their actions.

Indeed those were not our Lord's last words, read the rest of the chapter.

39One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

What did the good thief do? He recognized his guilt, repented, and turned to God. Do this.

>>691012

If God knows that a man's fate is in hell before he is born, what can that man do about it?

>>691020

God's eternal purpose is salvation. The problem is sin. Surely it's in the power of an omnipotent God to give free will. Free will is a thorny unsolved problem, honestly, but Scripture clearly affirms the problem is man chooses sin.

>>691024

So do you say that God, being omniscient, knows the fate of all men, but He makes it so that it's still man's fault if he chooses to not be saved in a way that people don't understand?

>>690984

>>691012

>>691019

>>691024

Ignoring the fact that you are making an average lawyer out of God

You do realize that you can speak in normal, non-pretentious style like every human being does, right, sir Maximilian Von Lichtenstein de Trastamara the third?

>>691027

Why even post?

>>691026

What I'm saying is there's a difference between God and God's creation, and working out exactly how God's omniscience figures into the free will of God's creation is unsolved. Various answers exist, but what is consistently affirmed is man chooses to sin and move away from God. God can harden the hearts of already unrepentant sinners to His purposes, but we mess it up. Read Genesis 3, eg.

>>691027

This stuff is pretty much written about in old books and the style wears off. Sorry.

>>691029

I ask why God even made man if he knew that there would be some that would suffer a fate of eternal damnation.

You don't say that God thought that maybe all men would choose to follow Him, do you?

>>691032

As far as I consider lawyerist attitude about God a bit…unconvincing, this suffering has its certain explanation

Well, you already know Orthodox attitude about the subject and certain opinion of Catholic bishop mentioned ITT as well. In short, it boils down that Humans (and Angels) are created as Loving being who should, first and foremost Love God, their Creator and Father, who is Love himself. However, true love requires ability to choose, as forced love isnt love. When free will exists, of course there would be some people who shall reject Him. Such are demons, and such are damned. Orthodoxy basically views it as if it would depend on "vector" you choose: TO God or AGAINST God. And when people shall be exposed to Love of God, for some it will be as shining light and for some as burning fire, metaphorically speaking.

As for why He made us…Well there are questions that wont get answered before we meet Him personally, perhaps. Though one interesting thing is that, when you look at story of creation, God simply made rest of the creation, He made Stars, Planets, Plants and Animals with his Word, He made Angels in silence (Granted, it has its certain respect and Church fathers noted that), However, when it came to Humans, He said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness". Humans are basically only beings about which it seems as Persons of Trinity are discussing about. This is to show that, yes, creation of Humans would imply that there was a possibility to fall and He was creating being whos free will He would respect.

Me personally, I trust in God and believe that He has plan for everything. But there are maybe some questions that wont get answered in your lifetime.

>>691032

Oh, that's easy. Romans 5. By Adam's sin, sin entered the world. The flesh now has a natural desire to sin against God. Christ's obedience offers us a free gift of a fix of this through faith.

>>691036

>certain opinion of Catholic bishop mentioned ITT as well

to elaborate, it wasnt about as much about his view coinciding with Orthodox attitude in exact same manner, but about that Everyone is given chance to repent and hopefully they will choose so.

>>691039

Yeah, universalism is unjustifiable.

>>691040

Certain Saints such as St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Isaac of Syria supported the view of universalism (in terms of hope, though), so I think that your opinion is too rigid (? English isn't my first language, so maybe I used the wrong word). Nevertheless, I personally don't find it convincing. From my personal experience, there are people who actually despise goodness and reject it no matter what and more good you do to them, more enraged they get (Basically hellish attitude).

>>691041

That's fair. Rigid is the right word. I don't reject universalism in principle, that all men could be saved, I only doubt in fact, that all men are saved.

>>691037

But God knew this would happen, regardless.

>>691036

Is it true love for a man to go into endless torment if he chooses against God?

My emphasis is on the eternal part here.

>>691044

I mean, once sin enters the system, you could destroy it (tried that once, decided to let Noah live), or God can come in Himself and take it in Himself thereby fixing it.

>>691044

>Is it true love for a man to go into endless torment if he chooses against God?

I think that you are under impression that it is God that changes attitude. But infact, God is unchangeable. This depends on attitude by us.

To put it in another way, Imagine that you ultimately abhor certain person, to the very end of your means. It may not seem apparent at first, but deep down it is so and it shall be revealed later. And consider that this person is omnipresent. Now add to this the fact that you are made in image and likeness of that person, as well as other people, so basically you see yourself and other humans, you are constantly reminded about the person you hate. And lastly, this hatred is only because of your attitude and prejudices. This is basically about what we are talking about. It is not that God punishing the damned as damned punishing themselves by being hateful to God and His Love. As I said, by my experience there are people, who outright despise goodness. I dont like this fact, but it is so. No matter what you do, they ill abhor you to the end.