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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: ba0abc921c42a53⋯.jpg (862.26 KB, 1920x1783, 1920:1783, Cefalù_Pantocrator_retouc….jpg)

9e2e67 No.684475

So I've looked up some of the main theories, but each seem to have pros and cons, is there any kind of synthesis which can be made?

The extent of my research is small, but I tend to agree most with, in no particular order the Penal Substitution Theory, the Moral Influence Theory, and the Example Theory to the degree that I understand them.

Penal Substitution theory is often considered the standard interpretation, and there are good reasons for this since it emphasizes the same sacrificial ideas that the Bible supports, but it tends also to be far too favorable to a sola fide approach, that because the punishment has already been borne, just believing that it has is the correct relationship of gratitude to the divine and thus it doesn't really speak to the importance of works.

Moral influence theory seems to be almost baptismal, that God baptized the world by pouring out His blood on it, that might not be correct, just my interpolation that might be heresy. This does have a weakness however in that it doesn't speak at all about Christ as Logos and that His sanctifying grace existed throughout all time, which I was told was the proper way to think of it theologically by a Catholic priest, although I may have gone about explaining it wrongly.

Lastly Example Theory, pretty basic, I like it because it focuses on Jesus's ministry and sacrifice as the example, even though it could easily be made into secular bullshit like the Jeffersonian Bible, which is just plain insufficient no matter how many atheists and deists say they follow Jesus but not religion like total tards indulging their pride everywhere they go.

I'd like to know your thoughts because this seems very connected to the church one should attend, and since it's Sunday it's an ideal thread. However I'll stay silent on denomination because I don't want to bring in meme answers.

a56f0a No.684478


1f4fe6 No.684514

The doctrine of the Atonement is one of the paradoxical mysteries of the Christian faith, that don't have an easy logical explanation, sinilar to the Trinity or hypostatic union. We can say a lot with dogmatic authority, but a lot of it will ultimately be speculation. If you haven't read this article, it might help you get some hostorical perspective.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02055a.htm

That said, I think we should keep in mind what language the New Testament does use (obviously), like ransom and sacrifice.

>Penal Substitution theory is often considered the standard interpretation, and there are good reasons for this since it emphasizes the same sacrificial ideas that the Bible supports, but it tends also to be far too favorable to a sola fide approach, that because the punishment has already been borne, just believing that it has is the correct relationship of gratitude to the divine and thus it doesn't really speak to the importance of works.

I don't think so. Even from a Protestant perspective, if Christ merited the forgiveness of our sins, that forgiveness still has to be applied to us at a particular point in our lives. That is, we aren't born into a state of grace/justice, but we come into participation in grace at the time we are saved/justified (at least in mainstream Protestant thought). The main difference is that Catholics believe that we can cease to participate in that grace by turning to mortal sin, and even many Protestants believe in mortal sin or at least that grace can be forfeited by apostasy.


4840a4 No.684515

Read the bible


9e2e67 No.684567

>>684478

Interesting, I find that compelling

>>684514

I would have to agree with Catholics in saying that such grace can definitely be forfeited because grace itself is a definite state of being.

>>684515

Meme answer, you suppose I haven't?


9e2e67 No.684570

>>684514

Elaborating my views I suppose I'd say I'm Anglo-Catholic, although I'm not settled on any one apostolic tradition. Really I'm trying to just follow the argument (argument is another translation of logos funnily enough) wherever it leads me. So far I've narrowed it down to Apostolic Christianity, but no further.


54aa8d No.684594

the example theory isn't really a theory, in the sense that it is true but not sufficient to explain everything. it is definitely one of the aspects but not everything. actually i've been thinking about this somewhat and i desire to sort find some sort of way to have a theory that allows for both the ransom theory and the satisfaction theory. perhaps in someway that ties into "the way (example), the truth (satisfaction maybe?) and the life (ransom maybe?)" - some form, just like how st. aquinas would usually never contradict st. augustine but expand upon his theories.

i find it hard to believe that for like a thousand years everyone was so totally wrong and off the mark about the ransom theory, and the satisfaction theory doesn't really speak about the word ransom, except that is from scripture from st. paul. i feel there has to be more to it. personally the idea of the ransom theory does sound strange to me, but my idea is that there must be something more to it, if it lasted for a thousand years and by incredibly intelligent and saintly men like st. irenaeus and st. augustine. and if a new theory could come up a thousand years later, a new one can come too a thousand years later. i haven't really started to work on it yet, mostly because i don't really understand the ransom theory or why it was so compelling. the satisfaction theory does make sense, although it does seem to be missing a bit of something too.


0b1906 No.684601

File: ca215b5b581059c⋯.png (415.15 KB, 351x480, 117:160, ClipboardImage.png)

Christus Victor best theory


750286 No.684650

>>684601

This

OP must be baiting


9f241a No.684712

Superabundant satisfaction sacrifice. Penal Substitution is undefeatable


9e2e67 No.684738

>>684601

Explain please


3fcade No.684790

>>684738

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christus_Victor

Death entered the world through man's sin. Christ entered the world as man and destroyed the power of sin by trampling death through death. We are saved through our faith uniting us to Christ's victory over sin, normatively this is initially done through baptism, in which we put on Christ by being buried and raised with him. At least that's what it is when you have an apostolic sacramentology




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