/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Based Chrysostom. If Orthodoxy ever becomes even somewhat large in the west I anticipate much kvetching and many REEEEEs over the fact that he's so honored in the Orthodox Church.

>>661057

They're trying to subvert Orthodox. If you're in it, fight that type of shit back hard >>660290

>>661057

He's a doctor of the church (highest level of a saint for teaching) in the Catholic Church

>>661046

They're atheists, and see things from a material pov. So among any other reasons they hate Christianity because they think a less merciful, more tribalistic and materialistic religion, like what the Vikings supposedly believed in, having been dominant instead would have made their lives far better than whatever their current living situations are. Its similar to liberal atheists disliking Christianity because they think its responsible for the Dark Ages. Put simply, I don't see much point arguing over the smaller stuff so long as they refuse to put faith in God's Promise.

>>661171

yeah except Christianity utterly decimated their paganism, to the point it is literally completely dead and they are all truly larpers. we didn't even leave like little small minority communities, it was a complete genocide. they either died or had to convert to Christianity. that's what i call dominance.

>>661172

>it was a complete genocide

no, it was mostly conversions.

genocides take forever and are bloody and all that, a ton of european pagans weren't really willing to die for their faith, much less try to resist Christian conversion.

>>661046

>smoloko

Don't use that side anon.

>>661174

i mean in the sense that they were completely destroyed and stop with reddit spacing

>>661178

I've posted on image-boards before reddit even existed.

>>661172

>>661178

They don't care, as I mentioned they're atheists. They want the amazingly beautiful and rich Europe/World they imagine would be in place if Odinism or any other pagan religion of their approval had been dominant instead of Christianity.

>>661046

You should also give Dialogue with Trypho by St. Justin Martyr a read.

>>661046

> because it is the truth

If it's the truth, why does it need to be shilled forever?

It's the only truth that requires this.

Everything else that is constantly shilled is false and people would stop believing it once the shilling stopped.

Like atheism, or if someone tried to make you believe that 2+2 is 5 when in reality anyone who would not be subjected to that mantra would find out, on their own, that two things + two things, is twice two things and not twice plus one.

>>661172

>yeah except Christianity utterly decimated their paganism, to the point it is literally completely dead

This has not happened in any "Christian" nation on Earth.

Even America is very unchristian with its circumcision craze.

Japan still worships Amaterasu.

Mexico still has Santa Muerte and Day of the Dead.

Christian Africa still has its customs.

Christian Europe is teeming with heathenry, non ironic heathenry, in fact it is so heathen that its indistinguishable since it's everywhere.

>>661214

>2nd pic

>XVI century

>earlu popes

>>661342

>being this dense

>>661221

THISx100

That guy who said it is called AtmanBrahman so I assume he's hindu and thus an actual pagan and not someone like larping Varg.

>>661046

You are preaching to the choir here, 75% of /christian/ hate Jews, and 25% are Catholics. I try to breadpill /pol/ whenever I see a religious debate there, but you are free to go and make a thread whenever you like. As I see it, either the Church or the Jews will prevail, but the future is too small for both.

>>661057

This. Only Orthodoxy can save the West.

>>661298

>If it's the truth, why does it need to be shilled forever?

>If the Gospel is truth, why does it need to be shilled forever?

>If it's true Jesus is King, why does He need shillers constantly?

>If God is good and true, why does He need to be shilled at all?

>If a shill says "Don't kill yourself, you havre much to live for." don't believe him because the truth doesn't need to be shilled.

That's what you sound like right now.

>>661298

>Catholic damage control

>>661456

>Mohammed was from a part-Jewish family, and the rulers of Saudi Arabia are all ethnic Jews too.

Proofs?

>>661046

But i tought we were already the Christian /pol/ version

>>661444

(checked)

Exactly.

If you cannot arrive at something on your own then it is not truth.

How likely do you think would it be for someone who has never heard of Christianity to recreate it verbatim from scratch, since it's the ultimate truth, as it is said?

It's extremely unlikely. They might come up with something that is somewhat similar, but it won't be 1:1 verbatim, the word of Dod would not be replicated in its whole, despite being the ultimate truth.

The fact that it's monotheistic makes it even less likely, since that's not the default thinking for people.

We call traffic lights and phones, stupid.

Printers are evil.

We give personality, even if it's just very very weak, to all sorts of things that aren't alive very easily.

In a world without missionaries, without propagation, etc, missionary faiths die out, but other things remain.

You know what true faith looks like?

Belief in a god or gods but having little to no written records of it, because everyone knows it's true and they don't need to write it down.

If you are a god and nobody needs to talk about you because you are intrinisically regarded as real, even without scripture and co, then you've made it into the big league.

If you need someone to day in day out attribute everything to you and remind people of you, then that's extremely insecure.

>>661521

>Dod

God. Sorry.

>>661430

I am Catholic and i hate jews why are you trying to say we don't and most of the people at my church openly dislike jews and call them christ killers

>>661529

just ortholarpers thinking that they are somehow relevant. catholics have historically hated the jews the most, we basically invented anti semitism.

>>661529

>>661547

lmao, the Vatican Bank is a usurious organization beset with scandal. No need to hate the Jews when you've become them.

>>661554

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/204717

so it says jews have a chance to go to heaven but its up to god wow man you really got us nice misleading picture under the headline to make it seem like the pope said it that doesnt change the opinion of alot of catholics about jews you are making me dislike orthodox people right now i have usually had great relationships with them

>>661557

>lmao, the Vatican Bank is a usurious organization beset with scandal. No need to hate the Jews when you've become them.

jeez with all those scandals how has it lasted so long

>>661286

>But i don't see anyone wanting to evangelise /leftypol/

Are you the christcom gang guy ?

And to answer the question that's because the premisses of the left are not christians, the communist are by definition anti-religious, the left of nowadays is by definition materialistic and progressive. In leftism what matter is not charity but a materialistic one.

But the right have it's principles on the proservation of the tradition (and the neo-paganism is a perversion of this ideal), so this principle is not anti-christian by essence.

You can see real christians are of the right.

You destroy anti-christian arguments, that's all. You introduce them to a better understanding of judaism and christianity. Those who are interested will come then.

And we could also destroy lefty-pol arguments, the fact is the propaganda of the left comes from the forces of powers themself, not from forums, etc… So a better deal is to stop the anti-christian rethoric doing damages on /pol/

>Tell them God is no respecter of persons

He is.

>but that if they are faithful to Him, their nations will likely live and prosper once more, just like before this modernist mess.

No. We should tell them that God loves nations, but only if they are traditional, then he destroy them.

Now keep your force of inertia to you.

>>661521

And yet we've gone over this before.

The pagans of today that are either not LARPers or not as LARPy are that way because of either being lucky enough to be part of an unbroken tradition, like the Mari people or Hindus, or have leaned heavily on written down academic research based on writings and research by Christians, historians and archaeologists. Pagans that just kind've do their own thing and follow their heart and don't rely on said writings tend toward the Liberal New-Age Wiccan Mystery Religion spectrum of "paganism."

You say paganism is more legit because it can just spring out of nowhere with no need for maintenance via handed down rituals and writings. Yet with the exception of some leftover traditions and habits here and there, European paganism, as anything cohesive, recognizable or significant, lied dormant for hundreds of years until a movement, starting in roughly the mid 70's began a concerted effort to consciously reconstruct said worldview via the aforementioned writings and research. Without this movement, based on recorded information, not just "gut feelings and instinct", boards and pages and groups like 8chan/asatru/, The Asatru Folk Assembly, etc. would literally not exist. Earlier movements and individuals of the late 1800s/early-mid 1900s that attempted similar revivals like the Nazi Occultists and Guido Von List's Ariosophy/Armanism, ultimately degenerated into Germanic-flavored Mystery Religions due to sloppier research and the need to syncretize with mystery religions due to the lack of structure and substance of pagan scholarly work at the time (It's no coincidence that the modern pagan movement started to flourish shortly after foundational classics in pagan research like H R Ellis Davidson's "The Road to Hel" and "Gods and Myths of Northern Europe" started being published in the 40s through the 60's) As I've said before, May poles, May cats, knocking on wood and kissing under the mistletoe is not enough to make a religion. You need a cohesive worldview or else the aforementioned are just empty meaningless habits.

Real pagans or wannabe real pagan LARPers = unbroken tradition or reliance on reconstruction through recorded information.

Liberal (or otherwise) LARPers = Feelings, instinct, UPG, heavy syncretism with existing systems like Christianity and Mystery Religions, or at best playing fast and loose with the aforementioned recorded information. In other words, treating paganism like it will just magically spring up out of nowhere.

In regards to your reference to the Japanses "worshipping" Amaterasu - with the breakdown of maintenance and state enforcement that came after World War II, Shinto has been reduced to window dressing habits and traditions that have stuck around, but ultimately take a backseat to the materialist nihilism that has become the de facto religion of Japan (which honestly, considering that isn't that much different from paganism, you might have a point there after all.)

Once again, your theory of pagansim being able to magically spring forth without maintenance is proven patently false by the actually reality of the history of paganism itself.

>>661563

> you are making me dislike orthodox people right now

I couldn't care less about you. The Pope watched as 1 million Orthodox Serbs were murdered or expelled from their ancient homelands in the 90s, so you already are my enemy.

The current political developments only hint towards a grand battle between Orthodoxy and Catholicism within the next century, true Christianity vs fake. One will prevail, one will be annihilated, and God will decide who his true flock is.

>>661588

you keep getting angry at me for popes i do not like i am a tradtionalist catholic… also your ideas about Catholicism vs orthodoxy are delusional

>>661589

>you keep getting angry at me

I am not angry at you.

>also your ideas about Catholicism vs orthodoxy are delusional

We'll see.

Go to self improvement general /SIG/ and post traditional Catholic teaching on virtues by Fr Ripperger

>>661627

>>661627

>What do you mean "recreate" it?

What I mean by "recreate" I mean recreate it.

It is natural for humans to create thundergods and co pretty much every time, doesn't matter where you go, if it thunders then they have a thundergod of some description.

Or at least a spirit or something.

What does not happen is someone recreating Christianity just like that.

Nothing else needs to be said about this.

These things do not need missionaries, they happen to any people left alone to their own devices with their natural ability, their soul, to connect with the world.

>>661521

>If you cannot arrive at something on your own then it is not truth.

You're going to have to put your back into it to get your fruity redefinition of what truth is to stick.

>How likely do you think would it be for someone who has never heard of Christianity to recreate it verbatim from scratch, since it's the ultimate truth, as it is said?

Zero. Ultimate truth can not be arrived at by non-ultimate beings. Christianity is revelation, not deduction or invention.

>>661639

You're forgetting one tiny little detail: the Pandora's Box of science that has been opened and cannot ever be closed again.

Eventually, on their own, humans arrived at the truth that snow is not the product of Mother Holle shaking out her bed set, but rather the ice crystals that precipitate in Earth's atmosphere. On their own, humans arrived at the truth that thunder is not the product of a bearded man throwing a hammer or a metal bolt towards the Earth, but shock waves caused by sudden bursts of thermal expansion in the clouds. Even if you theoretically got your hands on something like an Infinity Gauntlet and snapped your fingers and made all books and knowledge disappear and send all of humanity back into the stone age to prove your point, humans would eventually develop back towards arriving at this scientific model of the universe. And a scientific model of the universe, with multiple complex natural systems working together in tandem and harmonious order, does not point towards a bunch of personified natural phenomenon squabbling about.

Even modern pagans, whether they're trying to recreate their gods and worldview loosely or as tightly as possible from books and research, have fallen to trying to adapt their beliefs to the scientific model. Whether it be viewing their gods as Jungian archetypes, or deified ancestors, or tulpas/egregores, or trying to interpret the realms of ice and fire meeting over Ginnungagap as being a metaphor for The Big Bang, or just throwing their hands up and just saying "Heck with it: sure it's all a bunch of stuff our forbearers made up to explain what they did not understand, or to convey the worldview of their culture, but muh heritage!"

But do you know what is actually compatible with the scientific model? What could actually account for a complex network of systems working together in such beautiful harmony? A monotheistic creator. As the idiom goes: "take a sip from the cup of natural sciences and you will initially be an atheist. Drink that cup all the way to the bottom, however, and you will arrive at God. And wouldn't you know it. The Egyptians, Indians, and Middle Easterners were beginning to arrive at this truth by the Late Bronze Age.

All on their own.

>>661568

>Are you the christcom gang guy ?

No. I hate communism with a vengeance, but if you believe cozying up with the Atomwaffen Division is better, you got another thing coming.

>And to answer the question that's because the premisses of the left are not christian, the communist are by definition anti-religious, the left of nowadays is by definition materialistic and progressive.

And you believe occultists, pagans and atheists are better?

>He is.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

[b]11 For there is no respect of persons with God.[/b]

Romans 2:5-11

>You destroy anti-christian arguments, that's all. You introduce them to a better understanding of judaism and christianity.

You aren't bringing them to a closer understanding of shit.

You are just showing them some theologians weren't big fans of the jews.

But given they already quote Luther and Calvin pretty often on the subject, but i'm not seeing any of them lining up to join those churches, so it wont change their hearts.

>And we could also destroy lefty-pol arguments, the fact is the propaganda of the left comes from the forces of powers themself, not from forums, etc…

Yeah, no.

It's still humans that make this shit.

You can dismantle them just as well(personally, i'm keeping an eye on a certain far-left project that was popular a decade ago, to make sure it dies well).

No one gets a safe pass.

>So a better deal is to stop the anti-christian rethoric doing damages on /pol/

By being the channer version of that loser that tries to impress popular kids by imitating their clothing and sucking up to them, so maybe they will invite him to hang out sometimes?

>We should tell them that God loves nations, but only if they are traditional

And where is Christ in all this?

You have literally made our faith a spiritual window dressing.

Again, that traditionalism could be wrapped up in shintoism(like Japan), or the Imperial Cult, or atheistic reactionary larping, for all it matters.

The apostles didn't get sent to make sure we wear national costumes once a year, do some festivals to honor muh ancestors, and not let a lot of foreigners in.

They got sent to preach Christ, and baptise the nations.

Any cultural benefit resulting from that was incidental spiritual grace, like nice leaves on a vine.

>>661738

You are just over-interpretating ONE of all the arguments against anti-christian rethoric of /pol/.

Now if you have better arguments feel free to use them, find quotes or make memes. It doesn't invalidate the validity of the argument of showing them the theological reality of the difference between jews and christians and hebrews.

Someone can do as Pius XII did, condemn modern deviations of nazism and condemning anti-racism in the same text, and even preparing a text against jews. I don't really see your argument against showing the theological reality.

>>661746

>It doesn't invalidate the validity of the argument of showing them the theological reality of the difference between jews and christians and hebrews.

Because, again, if this idiotic campaign had been effective, /pol/ would have been filled with edgy calvinists and lutherans by now.

>>661749

>calvinists and lutherans

there is not only protie quotes first

then I don't really see a campaign.

and in the end I don't care if most /pol/acks stay edgy, what matter is the fighting of error, it will lead the ones who want to Truth.

>>661751

>there is not only protie quotes first

Ok.

Then the same answer. but with those quotes's denoms, as well.

>then I don't really see a campaign.

Not officially, but it's

>and in the end I don't care if most /pol/acks stay edgy, what matter is the fighting of error will lead the ones who want to Truth.

You are cuddling a highly influenceable snake, because you believe it has good intentions, and thinking it won't turn around and bite you, despite acknowledging they have loosed all their venom on us before, by simply being nudged slightly.

>>661752

*but given how much they have been resposted, it's a lowkey version of it.

>>661713

>>661646

You see, you disagree with me.

But the beauty of my actual truth is, that I don't have to discuss it, since it has been happening, is happening, and will continue to happen.

Whether I post or not.

I can and will completey agree with you here, because it literally doesn't matter.

Amen. I love the God of the Bible.

I can say this all day, but it doesn't matter. If I don't go out and be a missionary, and this applies to heathen faiths as well, a missionary faith WILL crumble away.

>>661769

>, and this applies to heathen faiths as well

Provided I would be trying to convert some people who don't believe in it to it.

Sure, you'll have your stragglers, but if the vikangz would have gotten to the aztecs first and "converted" them then we'd still end up with some weird mish mash xipe totec simulacrum.

Because missionary faiths can't reach everywhere nature can.

You cannot cover all the things nature has to tell.

This might sound like new age babble, but its the best compression I can deliver not to write huge essays here.

Not even science can truly help, can you imagine a series of fully and truly coincidental lightning strikes at some rational science thing that also talks about gods?

Like really close strikes.

Sure, at first it would be "just ions" and "a natural discharge of electricity" but every additional bolt would force "doubt" into at least someone.

The actual, non ironic scientific nature of the event would still instill spirituality in the people.

Because it is a veneer painted on top of us, there are places within us that cannot be reached with cold hard science and rationalism.

>>661769

> If I don't go out and be a missionary, and this applies to heathen faiths as well, a missionary faith WILL crumble away.

Mate, you aren't a missionary.

A missionary tells people about God, Christ, sins, repentance, and all that.

You have yet to mention any of those words(yes, i checked) in your ramblings.

You explicitly reject any attempt at trying to actually convert them(just "God loves traditionalism"), and just want to add a couple of more antisemitic infographs to the mix.

You just feel slighted they associate you with jews.

That's it.

You don't them to change or repent in anyway way, you just want them to see you as their guy.

>>661753

Indeed, that's easy theology, I don't think can do much more here. Yet it's still this.

>>661752

you just have to contradict their argument and expose the truth about jews and the Church. It's simple to anderstand. No snake kissing or something, stop over-reacting like a women.

>>661771

>But the beauty of my actual truth is, that I don't have to discuss it, since it has been happening, is happening, and will continue to happen. Whether I post or not.

Yes, the process of humankind moving towards a monotheistic view of the world, backed by science has been happening. For a long time.

>Amen. I love the God of the Bible. I can say this all day, but it doesn't matter. If I don't go out and be a missionary, and this applies to heathen faiths as well, a missionary faith WILL crumble away.

So the key to a faith being eternal is to NOT go out and tell others about it, and to just remain static and in one location in perpetuity? Didn't seem to work out too well for the European and Native American pagans when they encountered a more aggressive proselytizing faith (Nor for the Middle Eastern pagans against the Mohammedans, for that matter.) Doesn't seem to be working out too well for Hinduism either, as it's caste system and other aspects of it's worldview are crumbling away to the point of being a rural phenomenon in the face of increasing modernization and urbanization:

http://www.mahavidya.ca/2008/04/14/changing-attitudes-regarding-the-indian-caste-system/

Also, leftover Shinto habits don't seem to be protecting Japan from crumbling into ever accelerating rates of degeneracy that make the West look like a theocracy in comparison:

https://youtu.be/qpZbu7J7UL4

In fact, some of the worst aspects of leftover Shintoism and paganism in general (i.e. Animism - the spiritual "aliveness" of inanimate objects, that you referenced in the tendency of humans to call traffic lights "stupid" sometimes) encourages stuff like this:

https://youtu.be/RYNdiLrvwzA

https://youtu.be/lrgCjeXrmD4

Not to mention the fact that if you just compare, for example, Iron Age paganism to Bronze and Stone Age paganism, you're going to see quite a few differences that won't be particularly kind to the "Eternal non-Missionary Religion" thesis.

Even other non-missionary pagans crumbled in the face of more aggressive "missionary pagans" as referenced here: >>661740

Also, notice that virtually all of the reconstruction efforts of the modern European pagan movement have exclusively focused on the Iron Age. Why? It's as I've already said here: >>661582 : not enough information due to said earlier forms of paganism crumbling away over time. And, as also said earlier, reconstruction efforts without diligent research produces frankensteinien chimeric worldviews that barely resemble the original.

>Not even science can truly help

>The actual, non ironic scientific nature of the event would still instill spirituality in the people.

Because it is a veneer painted on top of us, there are places within us that cannot be reached with cold hard science and rationalism.

Oh yes, science has indeed been inspired and informed by spirituality and the other way around. Just not the kind of spirituality you're hoping for. In fact, it's even been encouraged and flourished under the missionary religion that you loathe. Forthcoming pics related.

>>661172

>it was a complete genocide

eh, not really. most of the killings done against pagans had a political animus under them.

For example, charlemagne subdued and converted the saxons because they were border raiding and threatening his empire.

Tryggvason and fairhair's pagan holdout enemies were holding out mainly because they didn't want to lose their autonomy by being subsumed into united kingdoms under a high king. Basically, paganism was their way of being obstinate against conquering kings.

When presented with no political coercion, the germanic peoples usually warmed up to and adopted christianity voluntarily (this is much better than genocide – it shows that the truth always prevails over lies).

The lombards christianized basically as soon as they walked into southern europe.

The goths became arians by way of persuasion on the part of ulfilias, and though arianism is shit, it is more true than odinism.

Iceland voted to adopt christianity, and let paganism stay legal. The pagans simply withered away within a generation.

England was converted, more or less, by monks making appeals to their kings and community leaders.

Germany was converted by showing that god-trees could be cut down.

Truth kills lies, regardless of whether men kill men. Our god is truth, and even without killing men or the threat of violence, our god puts the lies of the devil to death in men's minds after careful consideration.

>>661804

>>661805

And just in case those aren't enough, here ya go:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christians_in_science_and_technology

>>661817

In other words, show me where science has encouraged a revival of polytheism and a faith in bearded men throwing crap from the sky, rather than encouraging the view of an all-encompassing intelligent designer of the entire cosmos.

>>661811

wtf I'm Orthodox now

>>661835

>the orthodox denial of origen and augustine makes you want to break away from the one true church.

>not thinking deep about whether the pentarchy was really just an invention of justinian as a secular code that was later adopted by the invalid council under the trullo, thus rendering the east a bunch of low-test caesaropapists who are no better than the church of sweden in principle that st. john chrysostom would face palm at on account of their weak will before the state.

your choice. I was just saying that origen should never be trusted because he's an anathemized heretic and augustine don't constitute the whole of the apostolic witness and their divergence means they need to be understood in light of the rest of holy tradition, and not as the end-all be-all representation of it.

>>661837

Dude, it was just a joke. I'm not even Roman Catholic.

>>661839

and I just wanted to roast the orthos. mine was a joke too, I just deliver in dead-pan.

I don't understand /pol/'s allergy to Christianity. I remember that board being full of Christian Identity people and next level super antisemitic Christian boomers. Now Vargism is being artificially pushed like mad. This happened around the same time as the plebbit invasion too.

>>661239

I agree with you. There are people who've made it to this board from pol etc from some outreach. Not everyone on pol is a diehard pagan LARPer, or some people just jumped on trends because they don't know much about Christianity other than what they hear from (((their))) media.

>>661781

We want to evangelize them, we just have to know the "in" for them. For some people it's the beauty of art, for this group of people it might be something else. These are just ins, then we teach them more about Christianity and what it entails and requires. We show a fruit first and then show them the tree.

>>662002

>literally execute the guy when he is injured and after you already won the fight

That's murder and dishonor.

>>661639

Anon, I'm sorry but you are legitimately mentally ill from your false religion. I'm not joking or trying to mock you. I really do think your cognitive abilities have been impaired. Your response post is nothing like what a normal, rational would write, just rambling and repeating what you have said earlier without any reference to my post except one question which you answer inadequately. I'll pray for you, your mind's health, and your salvation because you need those desperately.

>What I mean by "recreate" I mean recreate it.

Not an answer. Does the person recreate merely a list of doctrine similar to Christianity or particular denominations? Is the liturgy the same? Is the god the person "creates" the self-same God of Scripture, or ontologically different despite similar names, metaphysics, and systematic theology? Is "recreating" even the right word describe this illumination?

>It is natural for humans to create thundergods

Man's sinful nature pushes him to sin thorough idolatry, who knew?

And how, my gnostic neighbor, does this prove "If you cannot arrive at something on your own then it is not truth," "If you are a god and nobody needs to talk about you because you are intrinisically[sic] regarded as real," or "These things do not need missionaries, they happen to any people left alone to their own devices with their natural ability" Man does not naturally seek God (See Psalm 14:1-4, 53:1-5; Romans 1:18-23, 3:9-18). Seeking an object of worship is not the same as seeking the One, True, Living God of the Bible, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Man needs help, first from God, and then from other humans who have been redeemed, preaching the Word.

>What does not happen is someone recreating Christianity just like that.

And? Not once have you said or shown anything to prove that your god demands, needs, or gives no communication to transmit truth to other humans. Please seek help because this is the language and reasoning of schizos. I'm not trying to put you down, you really do need professional help.

>>661738

>Any cultural benefit resulting from that was incidental spiritual grace, like nice leaves on a vine.

Nice, mind if I borrow this?

>>662302

Did I stutter?

There is literally nothing more to say about it.

If evangelizing stops.

If sermons stop.

If Bible distribution stops.

If missionarywork stops.

If the propagation, aka, shilling stop.

Christianity crumbles away and is not recreated naturally by humans.

This principle is the reason why you have all the above in the first place.

Don't project your mental illness on me.

>>662303

>Christianity crumbles away and is not recreated naturally by humans.

<but it says in the bible that shilling must happen because people don't naturally find god

They do.

Every time.

You simply call them idols, demons, or other things.

>>662304

>>662303

God save you. There's no convincing you with sound arguments.

>Don't project your mental illness on me.

You need help. You need Christ and a good counselor.

>>661521

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

>>662306

>God save you. There's no convincing you with sound arguments.

Circular reasoning is not a sound argument.

>>662322

Is that you speaking or copypasta speaking?

>>662302

Unfortunately, it's not a mental illness.

This poster's posts:

>>662304

>>662303

…are the product of a worldview that is fundamentally nihilist.

You see, what said poster is trying get across is that he thinks that if a scenario akin to man being set back to the stone age (i.e. all books, knowledge, technology, etc. being wiped out, and mankind has to start all over again completely from scratch) that Christianity would die out due to not having the recordings and precise rituals and precepts that it has now. That since mankind might try to cobble something pagan up again based on experiences in nature and trying to explain what they don't understand and inventing new "gods" based on said observations and guess work, that paganism is more "true and eternal."

What he doesn't realize (or perhaps what he embraces, unwittingly or not) is that this belies a disbelief in a supernatural Ultimate Truth that can only be the product of a monotheistic God. He does not believe that an Ultimate One True God would lead mankind back to reconstructing Christianity in exact preciseness. He does not believe this, because such a thing occurring would be far beyond the natural. For Christianity to rise from the ashes of such a scenario and be rebuilt to precisely back to where it is once again, would require a literal supernatural God to intervene and directly guide us.

But for the aforementioned poster, only nature and mankind's interaction with it is plausible. Under his logic, not even precise Iron Age European paganism would be perfectly reconstructed. There would be no Odin, or Thor…. or Zeus, or Hera…. Or Susanoo… etc. There would probably be A thunder god of some kind like Thundarozorca, or some sort of love goddess for people desperate for relationships, like, I don't know, Thotslutius. They wouldn't be the exact same gods as before, but pagan poster does not care about that. The poster only cares that the same basic templates based on man's baser instincts would pop up again, and that's good enough for him.

For pagan poster, mankind's base sinful nature is ultimate truth, simply because it is the mean we regress to due to our fallen nature: Ancestor worship; revenge blood feuds; "Might is Right"; human and child sacrifice; "he who dies with the most toys to be buried with to take with them into the afterlife (which is just a continuation of mundane life) with him" wins; petty conflicts of status and resources; indulging in sexual and sensual gluttony; those on the bottom being trash, and those up top being blessed (no matter how crooked they may be) due to some sort of karma or birth caste or Rig womanizing; one's petty little tribe/race is best and all the rest can die in fire for all one cares; moral relativity in relation to one's tribe/culture: this is ultimate truth for the poster.

>>662341

(cont'd)

Asceticism; extreme self-sacrifice; self-denial; a view of life beyond the here and now in this physical plane of existence; renouncement of materialism; love for strangers and enemies; meekness and humility; forgiveness; absolute moral truths; an abstract supernatural realm that exists and goes beyond nature: these things can occur in man naturally from time to time due to God designing us as good from the beginning.

Even "pagans" like Plato and Aristotle were beginning to stumble upon the Truth of a One True God in their philosophizing, which in turn influenced the science that flourished under Christianity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_argument

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmoved_mover

Even Norse paganism almost, but not quite, grasps such a concept in it's belief in Wyrd: a natural force that orders the cosmos to the point that everyone, even the very "gods", are subjected to it's whims.

But such good tendencies are extremely dulled and made rare by our corruption by sin, and can only be brought to full fruition by a relationship and obedience to the One True God. This can only happen under Christianity. Other monotheistic or abstract faiths like Islam, Buddhism, and even some esoteric sects of Hinduism attempt to approach these dizzying heights, but ultimately end up as bizarro corruptions of the Ultimate Truth in Christianity.

In short: our God tells us that he will not allow the gates of Hell to prevail against our church; and we believe him. We believe that even if all our books and rituals and recordings would disappear in a snap, that God would remain. That Truth would remain, and that God would guide us back towards it and Him. Because he is beyond nature, and not just something made up by mankind to explain the unexplainable and to fill the void in meaning in our existence. God is and always was, and always shall be

Pagan poster believes we would shrivel up and blow away like dust in an apocalypse of our books and rituals. He does not believe that an Ultimate One True God would intervene and guide us back to reconstructing the Ultimate Truth. He only believes in the "truth" that man makes up for himself when interacting with God's creation: nature.

Man-made meaning derived from interaction with nature is his "god": making him a nihilist.

>>662341

>…are the product of a worldview that is fundamentally nihilist.

No, Christianity or any missionary faith would die out in favor for that which people arrive at naturally.

I specifically added the stipulation that not even heathen faiths work very well for missionary missions.

I'm not being nihilistic, I'm being realistic, because I am describing the exact reality.

If a missionary faith stops missionarying, it declines because if it didn't decline without missionarying, then it wouldn't have to be a missionary faith in the first place.

All that blabla about child sacrifice (I give my only son) or might is right, etc are completely and utterly meaningless, but it's the only recourse you have because, as I have pointed it out.

The discussion ends at the ultimate reality of "missionary faiths die out because they are makebelief to those that do not arrive naturally at them".

It's literally as simple as that.

>>662342

> He does not believe that an Ultimate One True God would intervene and guide us back to reconstructing the Ultimate Truth.

Actual things happening do not require belief, they merely require observation.

Christianity, and other missionary faiths are the only "truth" that relies on your kind of apologetism.

No other truth needs this since only falsehoods have to be constantly reiterated. It is self evident.

If you need to repeat something forever because you very bloody well know that reality is different and people will be left with this reality if you stop trying to distract or detract from it, then your idea of "what is really there" is, to put it mildly, somewhat warped.

>>662342

>In short: our God tells us that he will not allow the gates of Hell to prevail against our church; and we believe him. We believe that even if all our books and rituals and recordings would disappear in a snap, that God would remain. That Truth would remain, and that God would guide us back towards it and Him. Because he is beyond nature, and not just something made up by mankind to explain the unexplainable and to fill the void in meaning in our existence. God is and always was, and always shall be

Wrong, media, including written and spoken word tells you this.

If you grow up without Christianity then you will not arrive at Christianity.

The only way you are arguing that "god will lead us back toward Christianity" is because you know about Christianity.

If you didn't know about Christianity then you wouldn't know the goal, the aspects the anything about it.

You were "missionaried", without that, you wouldn't be saying any of this, you are arguing backwards, whereas I am arguing forward.

And you know it.

>>662347

>>662349

>>662350

You're just repeating the same thing over and over again and confirming my point. That you think "truth" needs to be arrived at "naturally", not supernaturally. That God has not guided us to this point and that only our base instincts and make believe inspired by nature is "truth" and "reality." in spite of the Bronze Age Egyptians; the theories of Plato and Aristotle; the triumph of Christianity against Roman paganism while being severely persecuted; this same exact reality playing out in China as we speak; science, civilization and the West prospering and flourishing under the Christian worldview. All while paganism has crumbled away into habits and fringe cults.

Your denial of the supernatural and abstract,and your exaltation of man-made meaning inspired by the natural and your elevation of leftover hollow pagan habits as paganism's "triumph" is the only way you can process and deal with the cognitive dissonance caused by the cold hard reality of the defeat, decline and continued irrelevance of paganism, in spite of revival efforts.

And you know it.

You're a nihilist with a heart as hardened as the Pharaoh of Exodus, who continues to furiously plug your ears against the Word of God.

And you know it.

>>662354

The difference is that I don't NEED to post any of this because what I describe is happening, has happened and will continue to happen to any missionary faith, Christian or not.

You are making it more complicated than it needs to be.

But let's talk brass tax here.

>leftover hollow paganism

Do you consider Christianity, in its whole, globally, prominently pure or not pure.

As in, do you consider the world actualy more Christian than heathen or not.

I claim the following:

There is not a single Christian nation out there that is 100% pure Christian.

For reasons I have stated many times now.

I am not overestimating heathenry, you are underestimating it.

Severely. I cannot blame you, though, because it is simply that ubiquitous.

This is, again, because missionary faiths are paintjobs over things that are already there and also grow from things that are already there.

Remember, Christianity is the ultimate truth, it therefore needs NO SUPPLEMENT WHATSOEVER.

I am not the one with the low standards here.

You are. You allow any impurities and just call them Christian, you allow Christianity to be watered down into almost nothingness while also claiming that it's the ultimate hard truth that shines above anything and will find its way to the people in its true form eventually every time.

>>662362

>There is not a single Christian nation out there that is 100% pure Christian.

Or even a double digit.

Not even Orthodox countries are.

Slavic countries, especially have double faith, they are some of the more highly heathen observing places on earth.

>>662362

>>662363

And back around we go to the crypto-pagan argument: "We didn't really lose! We're still around in some form or another! So we really won!"

You wanna know how I originally got into paganism? I didn't naturally just "do it." I had to read about it. Learn about. Research it. And even then I brought my Christian worldview, that I had for 18 years, with me along for the ride. I was praying to Freya as my personal spiritual buddy, and focused all of my attention on all the main "gods": Odin, Thor, etc. (and mixed in some meditation and attempts at out of body experiences thanks to initially getting my information from the New Age section at Barnes & Noble.) I had dreams that I interpreted as me having my own personal valkyrie and spirit animals. The concept of a relationship with land wights wasn't even on my radar. It wasn't until I stumbled across the reconstructionist movement that I began to move beyond such cringe inducing silliness (albeit into a different sort of cringe inducing silliness.) As I've stated before (and that you've ignored repeatedly) when people just "go with their instincts" and "just make it up as they go along" they end up as your garden variety New Age Wiccan pagan. I seriously doubt you just "fell" into paganism. That either you are part of some fringe tribe that has passed down it's traditions, or you had to READ about it.

> because it is simply that ubiquitous.

It's so ubiquitous that unless they are one of the 0.00001% of those in tribes of unbroken tradition on earth, people have to literally READ and RESEARCH it in order to get it even remotely right, or they become New Age Wiccans. If there is no such thing as pure Christian countries, then why do people coming into the modern pagan movement from Christianity have to literally learn to deprogram themselves from the Christian worldview? It IS just a "paintjob" as you claim? RIGHT? :^) It should have no leftover effects, they should just naturally "get" paganism instinctively as you claim.

Even in paganism, if there is no priestly class, and no myths and traditions that are consistently passed down and reinforced from generation to generation, it too crumbles away. Missionary or not. Paganism has to be repeated; and as I said before, from the Stone Age to the Bronze Age to the Iron Age, that game of telephone broke down, and "gods" and traditions changed.

And honestly, if we were set back to the Stone Age, and Odin and Thor and Freya could not supernaturally guide people to remembering them and reconstructing them and their rituals, down to the finest details, then they aren't exactly supernatural gods, are they? If in this scenario, men just come up with different "Thunder", "Love", "Ocean", "Fire" gods with completely different names and rituals, then it's just men pulling stuff out of their rear based on base instincts.

Why do we have to literally relearn about "gods" that we should naturally just "get?"

Why should I bow down and worship and base my life around generic templates regurgitated by man's primitive flawed longing for God, when God has shown himself in how he has shaped the direction of the world? (which you continue to ignore and evade)

>>662375

>And back around we go to the crypto-pagan argument: "We didn't really lose! We're still around in some form or another! So we really won!"

It's not crypto at all.

It's everywhere.

You're the one saying "We totally conquered everything with truth, but…you know, we also absorbed all those things etc and Xipe Totec is fine if he's coming back as Santa Muerte" or other things like that.

Your personal anecdotes are of no importance.

I am talking about actual principles and processes here.

Every little bit, as insignificant as it may be, counters the notion of "the west (or any nation) having submitted to the truth of Christianity".

We can go back and forth til the cows come home, reality remains realitity.

>Even in paganism, if there is no priestly class, and no myths and traditions that are consistently passed down and reinforced from generation to generation, it too crumbles away.

There's thundergod, rain gods, death gods, and co all around the globe for a reason, and I have stated that reason multiple times.

They are that which emerge when nothing else is shilled and they crystallize out in their natural ways, every time.

Because if they didn't do that, then they wouldn't do that, but they do, so they do.

I know you have troubles grasping this, but if you whiped out the entire current religions and spiritualities and whatnot, "heathenry" would come back and manifest itself in its true way.

Names might change, customs might change, but the things that emerge will come back as the things that emerge, case in point: them emerging.

>Why should I bow down and worship and base my life around generic templates regurgitated by man's primitive flawed longing for God, when God has shown himself in how he has shaped the direction of the world? (which you continue to ignore and evade)

You don't have to, I am not evading this, I am just staying close to my words of missionary faiths not working.

A reason why I do not make an attempt at converting you, it is not possible because you believe too much in the thing that would not come back if it were erased, not even close, not even in the same ballpark.

I don't care what you do, just like, at the very end of the day, under the bottomest of lines, it doesn't matter what I say here or what you say here beyond personal passing of the time.

The things I describe happen, missionary faiths cannot win against the faiths that come from nature because it is everywhere, missionary work is a subset of nature, it lives in nature but it is not the entirety of nature.

It cannot cover everything and therefore cannot compete with everything.

As demonstrated daily, this is a principle. Not a specific pagan flavor or something I want to peddle or whatever.

>>662397

>It's everywhere.

>The things I describe happen, missionary faiths cannot win against the faiths that come from nature because it is everywhere, missionary work is a subset of nature, it lives in nature but it is not the entirety of nature.

And this really is a problem for any missionary faith.

For example. Christianity is the truth and all that, but generally it does not cover the effects of wearing your clothing in specific ways.

For example, wearing your clothes inside out protects you from witches, which is unironically believed even to this day, maybe not many know this this, but it is known.

You don't need to turn your clothes inside out to defend yourself against witches if you have the protection of God…

But tell that to those who know this little tidbit.

If your missionary doesn't cover that then that's the space where heathenry, or at least heretical thoughts thrive and must be combated.

Just one example. Extrapolate this on all the things you don't even think about or know but are there, remembered by people, not everyone knows all of it, but it adds up.

These things eat up the invading faith if you let them, it's really simple.

>>662397

>>662403

And the same crypto-pagan argument ad nausem. Again. This time with a clothes turned inside-out anecdote, and most of the major points dodged. Again.

What you're saying isn't difficult to grasp; just tiresomely repetitive (for something that doesn't have to be repeated) and built upon a foundation of grasping at straws.

We're clearly just going to have to see what happens over time; whether the gates of Hell triumph (whether due to inside out clothes or knocking on wood), as you proclaim, or not.

>>661997

>We want to evangelize them, we just have to know the "in" for them.

You need to go beyond the in, though.

This is just pandering, because of feeling butthurt for getting called a jew by neo-nazis, and feeling the idiotic need to get validated by them, for some reason.

>For some people it's the beauty of art

Except you aren't a wise old guy in a scarf that wisely shows the wonders of classical art, and reflects to the curious about what grace the artist must been conferred by God, to depict Christ's suffering or triumph in a Byzantine Icon or Renaissance statue, in such beautiful and profound light, and that grace is what moved all the art and architecture we consider beautiful and worthy of being enshrined in humanity's universal heritage.

OP is proposing we go to a modern art show in our most hipsterish clothes, and fawn over the goateed snobs, while telling them just how big fans we are of the art they like.

It's cringy and stupid.

>We show a fruit first

Which they can get anywhere with less cognitive dissonance, that's what you don't understand.

Any faith(even some radical offshots of judaism) or lack therefor.

>and then show them the tree.

Except they don't want the tree.

And if they do, it's highly likely they will adopt some fringe bonsai'd up abomination, like >>661960 testifies.

Yes, some did eventually meet Christ in such environments, but this idea would be ruining more than helping.

>>662620

anecdote [an-ik-doht]

noun, plural an·ec·dotes or for 2, an·ec·do·ta {an-ik-doh-tuh] /ˌæn ɪkˈdoʊ tə/.

1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.

2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.