/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>654320

>What did go wrong to the point of japan closing itself to the world? Were Ieyasu and Hideyoshi (and the other shoguns) possessed?

They feared that they would get colonized and spanish were quite brutal, unlike earlier portuguese

>How responsible were the dutch and the english for the anti-catholicism there?

Dutch helped the shogun to surpass catholic revolt. Verily, a (((merchant))) nation

>How could the orthodox have changed that timeline?

It would perhaps have better chance in terms that they could establish autocephalous church, thus eliminating fear of colonization or foreign infulenc as well as muh traditions part. But Orthodox were landlocked while Catholics and Protestants had access to world oceans, so that was practically impossible, sadly.

The Assyrian Church would have been perfect for the region and there is some speculation on whether they had a church there at some time.

>>654331

Do you think that Spanish colonization would have made things better?

>What did go wrong to the point of japan closing itself to the world? Were Ieyasu and Hideyoshi (and the other shoguns) possessed?

I'm not sure I'd go as far as "possessed" but they did not like foreign influence, especially when it brought something as strange as Christianity to them. A lot of Japanese at that time (and even many today) saw Buddhism as an intolerable foreign import, the same way a lot of European nationalists view Christianity itself (i.e. a non-native, destructive import which is hostile to their folkways).

It was for the same reason that the Japanese later on in the Meiji era actually made Western powers engage them on their own terms with the Equality Treaties rather than being treated like China and India.

>How responsible were the dutch and the english for the anti-catholicism there?

The fact that it got to the point that only the Dutch were able to stick around in Japan during the Sakoku era (albeit tenuously in Dejima which because a foreign port town, the only place westerners could visit) is pretty telling. They didn't cause it, but they clearly had no fellow feeling with Papists and didn't mind sending countless Japanese souls to Hell on principle if it meant they could make money.

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku

>Was the sentiment of japanese culture being replaced by that of the west inevitable? Would it have been possible for the missionaries to preach christianity without carrying western tradition?

This is a kind of loaded question since it assumes Christianity is something exclusive to the West when in fact it is universal. Many of the mores and customs of Japan (homosexuality, suicide-culture, pornography, lewd theatrics, paganism etc.) would have had to change, not because they are "Oriental" but because they are sinful and degrading.

Christianity itself has a really remarkable knack for making other cultures conform to it without losing uniqueness though. It's only when you try to change the faith to fit the world you see the decay start to creep in.

I think the most "Western" thing about it would be the use of Latin, which might be a problem for Japanese speakers, to the point that they may have been given an indult to say mass in their own language. That said, under Orthodoxy this might not have been an issue.

>How could the orthodox have changed that timeline?

Probably not, since at the time this was all going on arguably the most powerful Orthodox nation, Russia, was still making its way across Sibera, and was nowhere near the Pacific until the end of the 17th Century.

>As for christianity before the missions, one can only wonder the impact of nestorianism there.

This took a really big hold on China for quite a few centuries, and in other places along the Silk Road. It wasn't as successful as Islam was in these places, but in China they established whole sees and I think in the Tang dynasty a lot of courtiers (possibly some emperors too) were Nestorians.

>>654375

>A lot of Japanese at that time (and even many today) saw Buddhism as an intolerable foreign import

Yes, the daimyos' dislike for buddhism because of the ikko-ikki acted in favor of christianity in the beginning.

Christianity is universal, indeed, but the Latin Church might have been seen as way too imbued with western tradition for the shogunate.

Regarding the latin usage, I was reading the preface of Susaku's Endo Silence and in it there are some quotes by C. R. Boxer such as:

>Indeed, the executions began to be something of a religious spectacle, one of which Boxer describes as follows:

"This ordeal was witnessed by 150,000 people, according to some writers, or 30,000 according to other and in all probability more reliable chroniclers. When the faggots were kindled, the martyrs said

sayonara

(farewell) to the onlookers who then began to intone the

Magnificat,

followed by the psalms

Laudate pueri Dominum

and

Laudate Dominum omnes gente,

while the Japanese judges sat on one side ‘in affected majesty and gravity, as in their favorite posture’. Since it had rained heavily the night before, the faggots were wet and the wood burnt slowly; but as long as the martyrdom lasted, the spectators continued to sing hymns and canticles. When death put an end to the victims’ suffering, the crowd intoned the

Te

Deum Laudamus."

>Christianity is universal, indeed, but the Latin Church might have been seen as way too imbued with western tradition for the shogunate.

I'm not being snide but I'm just taking "western" to mean "not Japanese" here. The shogunate probably wouldn't have guessed at the ability of Christianity to merge with a local culture. It's understandable.

Another part of the problem was Anglo-Dutch reinforcement that you didn't "need" to evangelise, just do business, which probably only deepened the impression that Christianity was "western" and Shint/Buddhism were "eastern" faiths which could co-exist.

Interesting quotes, thank you. I suppose anyone can learn Latin, I just assumed that it might be more difficult for a Japanese speaker to pick up on. Thinking about it, it would probably be easier to pronounce (and properly) than English.

>Bata nostura, kui es in Chero, santificheta nomen tuam

>Abe Maria, guratia purena, Dominussu tecum

>>654359

I think it's possible they would have made it worse.

>>654391

True, but at least the Spanish could’ve made it happen. Either way, the church doesn’t need to be western in a cultural sense, and in fact could’ve intertwined with Jap culture to make it more appealing for them (cultural sense, not spiritual). But as you said, those merchants ruined everything for us. Since different rites exist within the church, you think there can be a Japanese rite so it can be more favorable for them?

>>654320

One of the things that bothered the Japanese about Christianity was the idea that their ancestors were in hell.

>>654391

>I think it's possible they would have made it worse.

At least the Spanish colonization would have prevented anime from existing.

Nagasaki was the center of Catholicism in Japan, and not on the original list of targets drawn up by the military.

But I'm sure that a Freemason president deciding to target it was just a coincidence.

>>654320

>What did go wrong to the point of japan closing itself to the world? Were Ieyasu and Hideyoshi (and the other shoguns) possessed?

To understand it in a modern context think of it as being a rejection of globalism and multiculturalism but imagine instead of just immigrants there was also literal conquest of territory. Now picture the beliefs of these immigrants gaining positions of power in society among local people.

>How responsible were the dutch and the english for the anti-catholicism there?

They fanned the flames but the fire was already started.

>How could the orthodox have changed that timeline?

They could not have made a difference bar some semi miracle like Spain going Orthodox or the Grand Duchy of Moscovy crushing the Spanish Empire.

>the reform might have been the worst thing that happened in the world. For it also had triggered the english and the dutch to spread anti-catholic sentiment.

Why do you think this is the worst thing that happened in the world?

>>654452

>One of the things that bothered the Japanese about Christianity was the idea that their ancestors were in hell.

That is the hard to swallow thing for Christian Asians all around because family ties are stronger here, much stronger than the west even in the past. I was told that for our faith in God can save them because the Lord sometimes help others who believe not for the sake of their friends and family who believe in Him. Then I was told the story of the cripple and his 4 friends who carried him through the roof of the house for Jesus to heal him. To carry a sick man on a bed through the roof is a very hard task.

And that is why our faith has to be strong first in order to carry others through ours. That is why we pray for others so their may be given and gift of faith and that their faith may not falter.

>>654457

>Nagasaki was the center of Catholicism

Actually that was Tokyo by that time period, Nagasaki was just where it was older due to that being where they were originally allowed to work and trade there (which was required because they had trouble getting direct funding from Europe so instead were granted trading privileges)

>and not on the original list of targets drawn up by the military.

Of the initial targets, which were not exhaustive. Remember the nuke that hit Nagasaki was destined for Kokura which was only abandoned by the individual pilots in the air when bad weather and smog made it impossible to carry out the mission safely.

>But I'm sure that a Freemason president deciding to target it was just a coincidence.

You mean a freemason president who left the Catholics of Italy/Rome, Austria and Germany virtually untouched whilst letting the Soviets having the Protestant region of Germany?

There is surprisingly many Churches in Japan. My favorite one was in Kyoto, it had a massive statue of Jesus welcoming people inside with open arms. I think there is room for Christianity in Japan nowadays, people there really lack meaning, and Buddhism or Shinto is not providing them that. Even though there are temples and shrines everywhere, and their have all these religious traditions, no one really believes in it, they just keep it for the tradition. People I talked to were really open minded and interested in Christianity.

>>654459

>Why do you think this is the worst thing that happened in the world?

The protestant reform led to the French Revolution and made the Enlightenment possible. The current world-understanding is the result of the reform.

Individualism, secularism, republicanism, materialism etc are all sprouts of the reform.

>>654478

Oh you mean the Protestant Reformation, the way your OP is set up it makes it seem as though you Japanese isolation reforms were the worst thing.

>The protestant reform led to the French Revolution and made the Enlightenment possible.

Did it though? Seems like a rather shaky foundation and something that would make more sense if the French Revolution happened in a Protestant country/region instead of a Catholic Country which had violently removed and expelled Protestants.

>Individualism, secularism, republicanism, materialism etc are all sprouts of the reform.

Going by your logic I could say Catholicism is the worst thing to happen to the world as without it there would have been no Protestant Reformation.

>>654452

>One of the things that bothered the Japanese about Christianity was the idea that their ancestors were in hell.

Neither we, nor Catholics state that someone is in hell or not. What we state however, is if someone is in heaven or not (the whole point of Sainthood)

>At least the Spanish colonization would have prevented anime from existing.

I know that its a shitpost, but this is stupid

Anime is a medium, and it can be both good and bad

But even the worst of anime (excluding pornography of course) are lot more wholesome than modern day western animation or slag that is made in HELLywood

I intend to move to Japan and this worries me. If my job takes me to a place where there's no Catholic churches. I would assume churches are situated in big cities mostly.

>>654452

>At least the Spanish colonization would have prevented anime from existing.

Yeah, but it also would have transmitted the Spanish work ethic.

>>654522

Anime would be a quite a loss in opinion or maybe anime would still appear but with solely Christian tones

but Spanish work ethic part is actually a great deal, to be honest. We are humans, not some robots that should work, work and do nothing but work

>>654331

>Dutch helped the shogun to surpass catholic revolt.

>to surpass catholic revolt.

>surpass

To … what now?

>>654402

Native Americans are allowed to celebrate the mass outdoors in traditional Indian dress. Who knows why similar accommodations weren't made for Celts.

>>654524

I am well aware, presumed CathFriend. It was banter.

>>654612

I'm Ortho and yes, I understood it

>>654597

Buddhism is also experiencing a 'reformation' I think. I have heard of another budding sect of Buddhism that is very similar to Protestantism: Following the Tripiṭaka (Buddhist Bible) to the letter and that is the only thing to follow, check; Lighter rituals and rites, check; Gaining popularity with the mass because it is easy mode Buddhism, check.

On the other note. Catholic and Orthodox have churches and parishes in Japan, Protestants on the other hand. I am not exactly sure but I believe they do 'rent' halls and meeting rooms for their communions from what I have seen. Someone posted a youtube vid about Christianity in Japan not too long ago, the interviewee said that they do that but I am not sure which denomination are they but I am sure that Cathodox have their churches and parishes so they might have been Protestants.

>>654616

Protestantism is the largest denomination today in Japan

Also protestants mostly dont need buildings, so its usual

>>654497

>more wholesome than modern day western animation or slag made in HELLywood

>>654320

>Were Ieyasu and Hideyoshi (and the other shoguns) possessed?

Everyone who isn't baptized (either the right way, or by desire) is possessed by the devil, anon. Maybe not in the flailing linda blair sort of way, but most certainly they are possessed.

>How responsible were the dutch and the english for the anti-catholicism there?

Hideyoshi began passing anti-catholic laws before the dutch arrived in japan.

Honestly, the big thing that led to anti-catholicism in japan is that the japanese were in a major power struggle when catholicism began to bloom in their country, and the leadership learned from portuguese jesuits that spaniards (who arrived after the jesuits) tend to conquer after conversion. It didn't help that many of the christian daimyo were opposed to ieyasu when he finally took power…

basically, it all boils down to power politics.

>Was the sentiment of japanese culture being replaced by that of the west inevitable?

I would say so. If meiji hadn't forced his back-asswards island to adopt western ways, they would have become a colony under western ways anyway.

>How could the orthodox have changed that timeline?

by not losing the russo-japanese war? I dunno. The orthodox seem incapable of expansion or proselytizing.