[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / agatha / asmr / cyoa / hisrol / lds / leftpol / vg / zoo ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Email
Comment *
File
Password (Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: ee448d23ae224f8⋯.jpg (95.94 KB, 550x386, 275:193, chrislam-in-america.jpg)

acb62c No.648321

I've been looking into Islam more and more recently

>Muslims say if you're anything but a Muslim you go to hell

>Universalism (the belief that everyone, including Muslims, will be saved) is becoming more popular with Protestant Christians

>Swedenborg claims to have had visions of Muslims in Heaven

>Catholics say CCC 841: Muslims will be saved, they worship the same God as Christians

So why shouldn't I hedge my bets with Islam? The only Christians I see who outright claim Muslims go to Hell and you have to convert to be saved are the Orthodox (along with various Prot denoms, but I'm not considering those), so should I just look into those two faiths to determine what to believe?

acb62c No.648322

>>648321

By "those two faiths," I mean Islam and Orthodox Christianity


b6c724 No.648324

galatians 1:6-12

>I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

>Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

>But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

>As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

>For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

>But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

>For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Let mohhamed, proclaiming the gospel of islam, be accursed. For the quora would make God a liar if it were true titus 1:2, which it is not true.


3ec0be No.648325

>>648321

>Universalism (the belief that everyone, including Muslims, will be saved) is becoming more popular with Protestant Christians

because many people believe it doesn't mean its true or certain

>Swedenborg claims to have had visions of Muslims in Heaven

who?

>Catholics say CCC 841: Muslims will be saved, they worship the same God as Christians

No it doesn't


0ec688 No.648327

File: 2be5628ab375e66⋯.jpg (43.6 KB, 620x330, 62:33, IMG_20180511_120803.jpg)

The Catholic Church says Muslims, like anyone else, can go to heaven if they were not taught the Scriptures correctly and lived virtuous lives. Even then Purgatory is a thing. That being said, if one were to outright reject Jesus' teachings and hate His Holy Church, then all bets are off.


6fd35d No.648328

File: dfa9f8bfda94d77⋯.jpg (235.2 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 003-jesus-cleansing-temple.jpg)


acb62c No.648330

>>648325

>because many people believe it doesn't mean its true or certain

Of course not, but that wasn't the point I was making. That's not meant to sound rude, I was trying to be brief in the OP rather than clear, and I do think my point didn't come across very well. Basically, if there are two groups, and Group A says "you have to join our group" and Group B says "you can join either group, it doesn't matter" I'm going to join Group A. If a bunch of people start proclaiming Universalism, and the other group claims a narrow path to salvation, shouldn't I just take the narrow path? However, I do recognize that there are more than two groups in this scenario

>who?

Mystic in the 1800s, he wrote a book called "Heaven and Hell." His work was influential, and was praised by Mark Twain and William Blake. Joseph Smith copied some of it when he created Mormonism. In Heaven and Hell, Swedenborg claims to be given a vision of Heaven where he sees Muslims, Pagans, and Jews alongside Christians.

>No it doesn't

"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."


463d5a No.648332

>>648321

I've been reading the Quran aswell, I don't see their teachings on the Gospel to be different than ours. They still tell people to Love God and Love thy neighbors.


b6c724 No.648333

>>648330

>group a

>group b

How about group c, which says don't believe us or any one else. Believe and obey God instead like said in galatians 1:10

>For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.


6120b7 No.648334

>>648321

>>648332

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)


b6c724 No.648335

File: ae6a8b6e7d24f72⋯.jpg (36.99 KB, 400x377, 400:377, ae6a8b6e7d24f7223945602a33….jpg)

>>648332

>all this low effort shilling and bait

The quoran forbids pork, but acts 10:10-16

>And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,

>And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

>Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

>And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

>But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

>And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

>This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

And 1 timothy 4:3-5

>Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

>For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

>For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


e49925 No.648336

>>648330

When you follow Universalism, you play with fire. Just my two cents.

"I am a jealous God."

Most gods seem to hold similar feelings.


6d8e5f No.648340

File: 4aa7658ee80da3d⋯.jpg (85.11 KB, 1200x630, 40:21, 879879278987.jpg)

>>648321

>Swedenborg claims to have had visions of Muslims in Heaven

Well Swedenborg claimed a lot of things.

He literally claimed to have debates with John Calvin, Failed to get him out of his [Calvinism] btw, and with Luther. Literally read This book related, Swedenborg was literally dabbling in Occult practices, and just unironically making up his own heaven, and hell, and was fooled by fallen spirits Ie, Demons. As for Islam, it sprung up far after Christianity, and Doctrine wise, it literally looks like they just ripped their stuff off the Christians. Personally i'd recommend orthodoxy, continue to study, continue to prayer, if you're looking for the truth, but im telling you dude in Islam, it's a master slave relationship when it comes to god. Just from my basic research. Get book related btw for an orthodox perspective on death. On death you usually find out a lot when comes, to different faiths outlooks on death. One of the things, personally for me that im still trying to come to terms with toll houses, cause i grew up in the late 90s/early 2000s, and death was for the most treated as well natural, a good thing. That's totally alien to ancient traditional christian outlook on death.


3ec0be No.648341

>>648330

plan of salvation ≠ saved


acb62c No.648342

>>648332

Ehh gonna disagree on that, Islam and Christianity have pretty clear differences, despite their similarities

I feel like I need to explain where I'm coming from a bit. I was raised Catholic, fell away for a bit when I read the Bible and thought it seemed pretty Protestant (sola fide seemed especially present in the Pauline epistles and the books by John). I didn't become Protestant because I still found most arguments against Protestants pretty compelling (like the 1500 years one), and I also found that many other passages in the Bible were clearly teaching Catholic doctrine (like the real presence of the Euchurist).

I went through a bit of a period where I studied different religious viewpoints and came to this eventual conclusion

>There is one God, so I won't follow any Pagan religions

>God can make himself clear, so I won't follow any weird New Age/Spiritualist "dude just follow your feelings" crystal """"relationships not religions"""""

>Jesus was definitely real and sent by God

I read the New Testament and the Quran together, while praying to God to help me. I eventually decided that Christianity was true, and went back to Church. I later even posted about this as a success story on this very board.

Recently, however, a lot of old doubts about Catholicism have been coming back to my mind, and I've been drawn back to the idea of converting, generally to Orthodoxy or Islam

>>648340

Haha, I never knew that stuff about John Calvin. That's really nutty. I've honestly only been vaguely aware of Swedenborg, I haven't even read his stuff. That's just plain crazy though, I knew he influenced Mormonism but I didn't know he was on the same level of crazy


6d8e5f No.648344

>>648340

*err excuse me, miscommunication on my part, what Swedenborg saw, in his visions, and out of body experiences may have been real to him, but it wasn't the real heaven or hell, he wasn't in hell, or heaven dude he was still in the arterial Plane. He was more than likely as father rose points out in, the book better, than how Im trying to convey. He was being manipulated by demons dude.


6d8e5f No.648348

>>648342

>Haha, I never knew that stuff about John Calvin

Yea in he out of body experiences when he claimed he was in heaven. He claimed he debated Luther, and made him he the error of his was in theology, but failed to get John Calvin, out of his Calvinism. Pretty funny, but again that doesn't sound like heaven, or hell cause for one in Swedenborg's writings, there's in no final judgement, or toll house experience. It honestly dude unironically seems like that dude from 2 centuries ago got used and abused by fallen spirits. I'd just say get the book cause father rose does a better job at explaining this, as he was a monk, and a good one it seems when was still on earth with us.


fdbcbc No.648358

>>648321

>Catholics say CCC 841: Muslims will be saved, they worship the same God as Christians

This couldn't be more wrong.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

"All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331"

"Plan of salvation" has nothing to do with "definitely going to Heaven". It means that, as you can read in 842, the Church professes that all humankind has a shared destiny which is God - and that muslims are a bit special in that regard as they, like jews, proclaim to worship the God of Abraham. That and nothing else. Literally ANY person on earth is part of the plan of salvation - whether God will let them achieve that or not is … you might've guessed it … up to God Himself.

Stop lumping together the Catholic Church with heretic homo-praising sects that have twisted and perverted God's revelation.

Orthos profess the very same.


5c1d42 No.648374

>>648321

that is not what CCC 841 means.

It means that God did not plan for just so and so people to be saved but has a plan of salvation for all people. But that doesn't mean that Muslims actually follow that plan (or they'd be Christian) or that they are saved.

It does say that they worship God, but also states that they *profess* to hold the faith of Abraham. Not that they actually do.

Either way the Catechism itself is not infallible, though some parts of it refer to infallible teachings.

The actual document behind it Lumen Gentium presents it differently, prefacing it with:

"Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God" before the part that the catechism quotes.

It then continues

"Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience."

and

"Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life."

So its essentially referring to God having a plan for everyone, including Muslims and Jews, but people not necessarily accepting that plan. It also seems to be talking about invincible ignorance, or any other such cases where a person through no fault of their own goes through life without hearing the Gospel.

As such it is *not* saying that Muslims are saved, rather reaffirming that Christ died for all men, and that in some cases a person is not necessarily damned because they didn't hear the Gospel.

It furthermore states:

"Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator."

Which is essentially saying that

1. There is perhaps some truth in this or that false religion

2. But the full truth is only found in the Church and in Christ Jesus

3. The false religions, despite containing small amounts of truth, have twisted the truth and follow lies

4. and this is the key part, they "serve the creature rather than the Creator", which seems to be saying that despite them *professing* to follow the faith of Abraham and despite them technically worshipping God they do not actually serve God. They serve Satan.

So no, hedging your bets with Islam could potentially damn you, considering that you have heard the truth and rejected it, if you convert to Islam.


ce48ce No.648381

>>648321

Do this:

>read the Bible

>believe the Bible

>believe in the whole Bible

>believe nothing but the Bible


8ceacf No.648394

>>648342

Do not, and I repeat, DO NOT CONVERT TO ISLAM. I live in Lebanon, and I'm around Muslims everyday. Sure some of them are nice people, but they aren't real Muslims. GO AND WATCH ACTS17APOLOGETICS ON YOUTUBE. He will dispel all doubts regarding Islam. Please go anon. It is better to convert to Orthodoxy than convert to Islam if given the choice.


b25082 No.648396

>>648321

Fuϲk the sand tiggers and their moon-worshiping monkey demon of a prophet.


64e0ed No.648400

>>648321

1. Prots are wrong, they aren't an authority on the subject because they aren't the true Church of Christ

2. 841 says that the plan of salvation includes them, not that they are saved. The plan of salvation includes all people. Also if you read literally 5 lines down it says in bold text "Outside the Church there is no salvation"


6e2296 No.648411

File: d1c3f0fcdf00d33⋯.gif (7.75 KB, 200x400, 1:2, d1c3f0fcdf00d33ed722c29ea7….gif)

>>648330

Yeesh that's Catholic doctrine? Makes me glad that I made the right choice.


f7d1a7 No.648425

>>648341

whats the difference?


34c2d9 No.648431

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>648321

Muhammad vs. Jesus: Judging Religions by Their Central Figures


49cb6b No.648444

>>648332

If you were reading Koran, you would know that it doesn't


ddcddd No.648468

File: 4988eb72a93a6d3⋯.jpg (51.57 KB, 738x870, 123:145, Kill it with fire.jpg)

>>648321

>Presbyterians

Non-apostolics YES!!!!


0efaa7 No.648476

That's not what the Catechism says…


6ee2e2 No.648504

File: 5e8d7dce36801fa⋯.jpg (48.73 KB, 480x409, 480:409, islam.jpg)

File: 5e5e31c0d2330e9⋯.jpg (167.16 KB, 871x1200, 871:1200, “St. Pius V and St. Charle….jpg)

File: 0b5e634c8bebda6⋯.jpg (171.04 KB, 960x960, 1:1, Aquinas on Islam.jpg)

File: 1d8b81be3055bc6⋯.jpg (936.88 KB, 2342x2866, 1171:1433, Islam vs Christianity.jpg)

File: 74f3230092e8542⋯.jpg (371.5 KB, 1639x2048, 1639:2048, islam2132.jpg)

>>648321

>>Muslims say if you're anything but a Muslim you go to hell

Are you going to believe what every cult tells you?

>>Universalism (the belief that everyone, including Muslims, will be saved) is becoming more popular with Protestant Christians

Stop believing in Protestantism. It's a heresy and it's dying out like all other heresies in Christian history. Most mainline sects of Protestantism won't be around in the next century.

>>Swedenborg claims to have had visions of Muslims in Heaven

What makes him a credible source? There have been many loonies with weird visions throughout history, my friend.

>>Catholics say CCC 841: Muslims will be saved, they worship the same God as Christians

You can't take the verse out of context. It says that Muslims claim to worship the same God, but then a few lines down:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

<Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

<Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Mission - a requirement of the Church's catholicity

849 The missionary mandate. "Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be 'the universal sacrament of salvation,' the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men":339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

850 The origin and purpose of mission. The Lord's missionary mandate is ultimately grounded in the eternal love of the Most Holy Trinity: "The Church on earth is by her nature missionary since, according to the plan of the Father, she has as her origin the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit."341 The ultimate purpose of mission is none other than to make men share in the communion between the Father and the Son in their Spirit of love.342

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God's love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, "for the love of Christ urges us on."343 Indeed, God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth";344 that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.

852 Missionary paths. The Holy Spirit is the protagonist, "the principal agent of the whole of the Church's mission."345 It is he who leads the Church on her missionary paths. "This mission continues and, in the course of history, unfolds the mission of Christ, who was sent to evangelize the poor; so the Church, urged on by the Spirit of Christ, must walk the road Christ himself walked, a way of poverty and obedience, of service and self-sacrifice even to death, a death from which he emerged victorious by his resurrection."346 So it is that "the blood of martyrs is the seed of Christians."347

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm


d3323d No.648510

>>648321

>So why shouldn't I hedge my bets with Islam?

Because you're not "hedging your bets", you're denying Christ and going to hell


03be2b No.648535

>>648358

>proclaim to worship the God of Abraham

>together with us they adore the one, merciful God

Its written that they indeed adore the same God as christians, not just proclaim to do so.

>>64835

>technically worshipping God they do not actually serve God. They serve Satan

>they serve Satan, but worship God

This doesn't make sense.

>>648504

>through no fault of their own

So the only way of a Muslim to worship God is if he has no fault of his own ignorance. But the Cathecism talks about all muslims, not just the ones that aren't to be blamed.

>>648374

>either way the Catechism itself is not infallible,

"The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which I approved 25 June last and the publication of which I today order by virtue of my Apostolic Authority, is a statement of the Church's faith and of catholic doctrine, attested to or illumined by Sacred Scripture, the Apostolic Tradition and the Church's Magisterium. I declare it to be a sure norm for teaching the faith and thus a valid and legitimate instrument for ecclesial communion" (Fidei Depositum)


1fc2ca No.648539

>>648321

1. Universalism also includes the belief sinners go to hell before they go to heaven.

2. Jesus is God to Christians. He is a prophet to Muslims, who therefore think it's blasphemy to worship him.


2dff0a No.648546

“Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is

antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son.” (1 John 2:22)

Who denies Jesus Christ also denies the Father. How can muslims worship the same God as christians??


2dff0a No.649261

“Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.” (Pope Eugene IV)

“It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. (Pope Clement V)


0c33b6 No.649837

File: 238534610b6a4c1⋯.jpg (2.09 MB, 1696x6224, 106:389, islam1.jpg)

File: 30b3395193858bf⋯.jpg (2.05 MB, 1336x6290, 668:3145, islam2.jpg)

"Worship the same god"

>the trinity: father son and holy spirit

vs

>some demon with a crescent motif

On jesus:

>Son of god, the messiah, 100% man and 100% divine as outlined in the nicene creed

vs

>he's just some guy lmao

k


15c0f3 No.651379

>>648321

>So why shouldn't I hedge my bets with Islam?

Because then you'd be a Muslim.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / agatha / asmr / cyoa / hisrol / lds / leftpol / vg / zoo ]