/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>642747

Because their church elders tell them that they know better than the word of God.

>>642747

Pastor Anderson is a phony. So he memorized a bunch of the Bible that is it. Basically it is equivalent as one of us memorizing a bunch of scripture and going around namefagging.

>>642759

not an argument

>>642760

It is. What makes his interpretations of any importance. They are just his own ideas. He holds no theological background of importance aside from his ability to memorize. Is memorization such a fantastical feat, when one can simply turn to the verse that they want to look up?

>>642761

Besides that isn't an argument. The thread is that your saved by gaith and rewarded by works which your post had nothing to do with

>>642762

Yes it is, especially if you post a video of Anderson as some form of expert. We have this thread almost once a week if not once a month.

Because cdefenders of faith only don't base their arguments around logic, but around emotion.

They start from the "so you're think you're better than me for doing something for God, huh? You ain't shit, you do bad things too" and move from there.

And since logic and emotion are two horses of the same carriage, they'll always, and I truly mean always, find a little twist and a little sophistry that justifies their self shame, mainly the fact they purposefully kid themselves that bible verses about faith mean faith only.

And defenders of works only (mainly Bergoglio, nu-caths and normies) are also looking for an excuse of their feelings, except it's for their want to not be confrontational with infidels.

>>642766

No it isn't

>>642761

>What makes his interpretations of any importance.

Nothing. The objective truth is given by the Holy Spirit who indwells the saved believer. That is how one discerns the spirit of truth from error. No prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20).

If you aren't saved you may continually go from one doctrine to another without knowing which is true. But it isn't the same with everyone.

John 14:16-17

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

1 John 2:27

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

>>642747

Heresy of pelagianism, you are saved by grace alone. Faith and works are justification and evidence of salvation

>>642747

This guy is seemingly twisting verses that say the Church will spread to cover all EARTHLY nations, that heaven will be glorious, and good works are important; in order to transform Heaven into a mirror of his own Earthly political values. Calling certain doctrines "communist" is a huge red flag.

Was gonna include verses but apparently my comment was too long, I'll break it up.

>>642747

>>642830

There will be no human kings, no nations in heaven:

Zechariah 14:9

>And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

Hebrews 11:13-16

>These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Galatians 3:26-29

>So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Psalm 10:17

>The LORD is King forever and ever; nations have perished from His land.

>>642747

>>642831

Everyone receiving equal reward from God is NOT unfair, because ultimately He owns everything; it is up to him to do as he pleases. Wanting to be wealthier and more powerful than your neighbors in Heaven is dangerously unChristian.

Matthew 20:1-16

>For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius [a standard day's wage] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

>About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ So they went.

>He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

>‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

>He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

>When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

>The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

>But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

Philippians 2:3-7

>Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Romans 9:14-16

>What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! For He says to Moses:

>>“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

>>and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

>So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Deuteronomy 10:17

>For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

Revelation 21:27

>But nothing unclean will ever enter it [Heaven], nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Ephesians 5:5

>For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

1 Corinthians 15:9-10

>For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.

>>642824

Saved with faith maybe?

>>642832 (You)

>>642747 (OP)

His claim that you can be saved if you have faith but eschew good works is the most contrary to scripture of all, IMO. The other stuff is questionable, but that borders on outright heresy.

John 14:19-23

>Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) said to him, “Lord, how is it that you will manifest yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

James 2:14-26

>What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

>But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

>Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

>You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

>In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Matthew 25:41-46

>“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

> “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

> “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

>"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

>>642836

What constitutes good works exactly? Volunteering? Charity? Helping the homeless?

>>642838

Yes, that and more.

We're called to do good in almost every aspect of our lives; from saving lives to raising the next generation to being polite and considerate in everyday conversation.

>>642884

And when I say, “know God” I mean living by his 10 Commandments of the OldTestament and Mark 12:30-31 of the New Testament. I don’t actually have to worship people like this Anderson guy do I?

>>642831

no

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

>>642888 (checked)

God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

>>642824

Justification is by faith alone.

I'm really tired of every single protestant quoting the Bible to defend their retarded fanfic. Every single heretic, every single snowflake, every single degenerate likes to quote the Bible. Every single one of them, completely ignorant of theology or actual Christianity.

>>642981

>every single degenerate likes to quote the Bible.

In what universe is this true?

>actual Christianity.

I can tell you right now if you're "tired" of hearing the Bible, then you definitely have a false history and false view of what actual Christianity is. Get right with God.

>>642981

>I'm really tired of hearing biblical teaching

>>642835

Nope. Saved by grace, through Faith

>>642976

James 2:24, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

I will take the bible over your Lutheran dogma thank you.

>>642993

Your fanfics are as much biblical teachings as those from JWs, who also love to quote the Bible. Or mormons, or those retards in korea who think there is a god the mother incarnated in a woman. That is how much your quotes and fanfics are worth

>>642989

Im tired of hearing protestants, who perverse the Bible to no end, without understanding what it is, or what it meand

>>643009

>Only my special church and its special (self-)appointed experts can interpret scripture. Stay away minions, you can't read properly. Jesus only taught theologians, not you mere mortals like fishermen or farmers. Just do what we tell you and we'll make sure you win salvation.

No wonder there are so many gadolig priests abusing their power when this is the power they're given by folks like you

>>643006

>let me throw out the entire Bible for one verse

Retard

>>642991

Someone going and quoting the Bible is acknowledging the inspired authority of God's word. I'll gladly talk with them over someone who shuns the word of God and desires to throw it in the trash can. You're simply trashing God's word. And truly I am telling you, there is little hope for someone who trashes God's word and throws it in the dumpster, making it second class and making it of none effect. At least the other person isn't belittling and laughing at the truth. They might still believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and his words that he spoke.

If you have faith, it results in works. No works, means no faith. Thus, they are inherently interconnected. Faith+works, simple as that. And that's how all Christians until Luther have always understood it.

>>642747

Faith is the seed, works is the tree, salvation is the fruit of the tree. It's not complicated, people should stop trying to separate them these things. Anyone with genuine faith WILL produce works which is proof of his faith.

>>643271

Nope

Romans 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

>>643287

nope >>643297

>>643297

That's a strawman, I didn't say we're not justified by faith, but that faith WILL and does produce fruit 100% of the time, hence faith and works cannot be separated, Christ's cup of salvation always leads to regeneration. Hence the Parable of the Sower and Matthew 7:17.

Abraham was justified by faith, but he was also not a lazy bastard, his faith led to works because it was genuine – after all – he didn't "imagine" himself climbing the mountain to offer up his son, he walked the mountain and was going to do it – Faith was leading to works – though works is not the source of faith, faith is the source of works… The two are conjoined and can never be separated.

Faith is the beginning of righteousness and therefor its source (which is God), but when it's genuine, it will naturally lead to works as per the Parable of the Sower.

>>643252

The problem isn't reading the bible, the problem is the eisegesis pr*ts do to justify their heresy

>>643297

Out of faith stems rightousness, that's what I said. No works without faith can't be righteous, that's the whole point of the verse. Now you explain to my why would st. Paul bother to explain this distinction if works weren't important.

>>643101

You think James is wrong then and scripture is fallible? James literally directly contradicted your extra biblical Lutheran dogma invented in the 1500s and you know there's no way around it.

>>643307

>The problem isn't reading the bible

Ok then why are you saying you're tired of it? Because you can't say anything against it is why. Because it's the truth. You want to get people off the path and away from the light of the word and into irrelevant discussions that will take them nowhere.

>>643327

When did I say James was wrong? And if anything James would be wrong over the other 26 books.

James 2 is justfied to man by your works, that's why he keeps saying "brethren". And he even says in James 2

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

And with Abraham it is to because Romans 4 says Abraham was justified before circumcision and it literally tells you he wouldn't have glory to God by works

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

>>643306

>but that faith WILL and does produce fruit 100% of the tim

Nope

>him that worketh not but believeth

If you automatically did works then that wouldn't make any sense

>>643353

So you agree a man is justified by works and not by faith alone

>>643353

>When did I say James was wrong? And if anything James would be wrong over the other 26 books.

Or maybe, just maybe, you are still wrong and NONE of those 27 books teach Lutheran dogma?

>James 2 is justfied to man by your works

That's not the case, an you just prooved that. Key sentence and base of James discurse is not "brethren" it's this: "can faith save him?" (Beside, "brethen" argument is stupid because Paul say this in Romans 4: What shall we say then that Abraham hath found, who is our father according to the flesh.. Paul speaks to his "breathen" as well).

>And with Abraham it is to because Romans 4 says Abraham was justified before circumcision and it literally tells you he wouldn't have glory to God by works

The "works" Paul was speaking against were "works of the [Mosaic] Law" (Rom 3:28ff, 4:9ff), while James was speaking of good works done in union with Christ. (NB: sacrificing one's son isn't even a commandment of the Mosaic Law.) Protestants often miss this simple 'solution' because they refuse to categorically distinguish between "works of the Mosaic Law" and good works in general, done in union with Christ - the 'works' are not the same.

>>642967

this

>>643111 (checked)

WIN!!

>>643536

To man yes, to God no

>>643605

protties: we have to be justified before men

Jesus: THE WORLD WILL HATE YOU

>>643587

Or you're wrong considering there's about 150 verses that teach sola fide and about 10 that seem to teach the opposite

Paul and James are talking about brother in Christ not physical brother you tard

Are you retarded? James 2, Romans 4, and Galatians 3 all qoute Genesis 15:6 but only James 2 is talking about good works and not works if the law? That's conoletely retarded abd Romans 4 and Galatians 3 talk about people being saved without works but by just faith >>643111

>>643607

>we have to be justified before men

When did I say that?

And again Romans 4 says Abraham was justified to God before he was circumcised so he couldn't have been justified when he would sacrifice Issac bevause that was way after he got circumcised

>>642747

Need to answer these basic questions:

"What does FAITH mean?"

"What does JUSTIFY mean?"

"What does SALVATION mean?"

"Am I relying upon a PERSON (CHRIST) or a PROCESS?"

>>643610

Why invent justification before men when 1. It never says "before men" and 2. the world is suppose to hate us anyway? Not adding up.

>>643608

>Or you're wrong considering there's about 150 verses that teach sola fide and about 10 that seem to teach the opposite

There is absolute zero verses that teach sola fide. Not a single one. The best shoot is one in Ephesians but it's only because it's inherently anti-pelagian but it still does not speak about justification by faith alone.

>Paul and James are talking about brother in Christ not physical brother you tard

Then why, o vain man, do you insist that it changes ANYTHING?

>James 2, Romans 4, and Galatians 3 all qoute Genesis 15:6 but only James 2 is talking about good works and not works if the law?

But there is the problem. James 2 does not speak about Genesis 15. It's about Genesis 22. And that justification took place in this, 22th, chapter. Of course, if you don't believe in protestant bullshit that makes perfect sense.

> That's conoletely retarded abd Romans 4 and Galatians 3 talk about people being saved without works but by just faith >>643111

Romans 4 and Galatians 3 are primarily about Mosaic Law i.e. that it does not save and never could save. You chop those chapter to fe verses and except rest of people to be us blind. A defining characteristic of all heresies is that they appeal to Scripture in selective sound bites, since appealing to the broader context would expose the error. I'll examine some of that ignored context and show why it does harm to the Protestant appeal to Romans 4. Here let me expalin it what those chapter means.

The passage I had in mind was Romans 4:13-16, coming right on the heels of Romans 4:9-12 (another context routinely ignored by Protestants). In 4:9-12, Paul emphasizes that Abraham's faith was regarded as a righteous act prior to his being circumcised, and that is to prove that justification does not depend on whether one is a Jew or Gentile. That passage shows clearly that Paul was not worried about people trying to save themselves by their own works instead of trusting in Jesus alone by faith alone, but rather that the real problem was Jews thinking themselves superior to the Gentiles and missing the fact justification is apart from the Mosaic Law (Rom 3:28). This sets up Paul for summarizing the heart of his Gospel message:

13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring - not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

If Paul was talking about some generic "law" and generic "works" in Romans 4, then this passage really makes no sense. But if Paul is talking about the works of the Mosaic Law, then the beauty of this passage really pops out. What Paul is saying is that God granted a saving "promise" to Abraham back in Genesis, and reception of this "promise" was not conditioned upon adhering to the Mosaic Law which was instituted in Exodus. In fact, Paul says if this "promise" came through following the Mosaic Law, then the prior condition of Abrahamic faith would be nullified.

Using the Catholic principle of Scripture-interprets-Scripture which Protestants don't like, I'll now turn to Galatians 3 which brings about this same message in a more plain manner:

15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.

>>643666

Paul brings out some very amazing points here. First, Paul points out an important nuance which is that the promise God made to Abraham in Genesis mentioned "offspring" (more accurately "seed") in the singular, not the plural. What most Jews were accustomed to doing is reading texts like Genesis 12:7 as speaking of "offspring" in the plural, as in 'one big family'. Really, this "seed" God promised to Abraham was a future son, Jesus! It is through Jesus directly, and Abraham indirectly, by whom all nations would be blessed (Gen 12:3-4 + Galatians 3:8). So Paul is saying it's absurd and wrong to think that the Mosaic Law, "which came 430 years" after Abraham, would somehow steal that privilege and promise from God's covenant with Abraham.

Thus, the grand realization that Protestants miss is that Paul is not talking about people who are trying to 'work their way into heaven', but rather people who are looking to the wrong covenant to be saved. The Jews thought salvation came through being a member of the Mosaic Covenant, when Paul is saying the Mosaic Covenant never offered salvation in the first place! So even if a Jew kept the Mosaic Covenant, that wouldn't save them (Gal 2:21). Salvation always came through one source, faith in the "seed" of Abraham, Jesus. Protestants made a horrific error by thinking that salvation does come by the Mosaic Law but since we could not keep the Mosaic Law perfectly then Jesus had to keep it perfectly for us!

Paul explains that the Mosaic Law had a temporary function, not an eternal one as Jews and Protestants mistakenly think. The Mosaic Covenant lasted for only about 1500 or so years and ended at the Cross. The Mosaic Law was "added" (Gal 3:19) to the picture as God's way of getting mankind ready for the Messiah. The Mosaic Law would formally expose sin ("the law brings wrath") and the need to deal with sin, which simultaneously prefigured and prophesied for us the Sacrifice on Calvary. This is why Romans 5:12-14 says sin and death were in the world before the law was given to Moses and why sin is not formally charged without a law in place.

After realizing this, it is clear that if someone ignores or misunderstands Romans 4:13-16 when reading Romans 4 (and Gal 3:15-19 when reading Galatians 3), then they've missed Paul's entire point! They've come up with "another Gospel" (Gal 1:8), which is unfortunately what Protestantism has done the last 500 years.

Also, this paste of verses without context is what any proof text without context is - pretext.

>>642967

so we shouldn't worship him? maybe just venerate him?

>>643271

>>643297

This is the actual controversial doctrine, not what was posed by the OP. That is: does faith result in works? This is where the fundamentalist baptists fall apart, and do what they accuse others of doing with James 2:24 but with Romans 4:5.

>i want to be saved without any effort or thinking on my part!!! ARGHHH! WHY CAN'T I JUST DRINK LEMONADE AND PLAY VIDYA ALL DAY AND BE SAVED?!

if only it was so easy YOU HERETICS