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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: 2b2d5b18380b865⋯.png (1.81 MB, 1280x829, 1280:829, christusrex.png)

f2d4e6 No.639560

Something that has always put me off protestant churches was the problem of legitimacy. Protestant theology sounds more correct to me than the Apostolic one, but at the same time I can see in the Bible the ground for an established church "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her", so how can I turn my back to that church?

Please, prots (Baptists, Presbyterian. Lutheran, Anglican, whatever) explain me why your church is legitimate. I don't want to spark a debate or anything, it's a genuine question by a person drawn towards Lutheranism but can't see it as legitimate.

42784e No.639561

>>639560

>so how can I turn my back to that church

Don't. Seriously. Do not. Traditions may be overwhelming, there were good popes and there were bad popes, there were good times of the church, there were times that the church was rotten. But it was us who are not perfect who was at fault, not that insignificant little rock which the church is founded on, the one that Christ has promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


f9bd9c No.639565

File: 3601d98fbba585c⋯.jpeg (42.61 KB, 254x489, 254:489, 75204C66-2688-43D7-BCB6-B….jpeg)

We actually follow the teachings if the apostles instead of traditions of the elders like what Jesus rebukes the pharisees for in Mark 7

Faith alone.

Acts 16

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

No baby sprinkling.

Acts 8

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

No worshipping man.

Acts 10

25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.

Jesus went to hell for 3 days.

Acts 2

31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Also Baptists aren't protestant


f22c91 No.639568

>>639560

I'm a Prot by default, not by will. My questions to the Apostolic Church have never been answered, so these are essentially my objections/evidence needed:

The only evidence that I will ever accept is between 33 AD and 325 AD, anything later than that is too late to even matter to me for obvious reasons, so within that time frame, do the Church Fathers believe in the following

1) That Rome is prime

2) That they understand apostolic succession as we do now and not apostolic tradition instead

3) That they believe churches can not fall

4) That improvements and deviations from what the Apostles taught is an ability given to someone

5) Show me a line of sure Pope succession that thought of itself as the Pope and exercised ability as the Pope does now, and that it is not a later development past 325 AD

Excluded from evidence to me: Any pre-suppositions on what you think the Church should be based on your modern experience, no references past 325 AD and no organizational assumptions brought back into the era

I've been reading the pre-Nicene Church Fathers for a bit now, still gonna continue until I find all of this (though I am slow going through all of them).


f2d4e6 No.639569

>>639565

I'm not asking things from a doctrinal view. I know about that debate etc.

What I'm saying is: even if I hold that all baptists beliefs are true, how can I become baptist when the Catholic/Orthodox church can trace its legitimacy to the apostles?


f9bd9c No.639570

>>639569

Well if they teach completely the opposite of what Jesus and the apostles taught then the gates if hell clearly prevailed against that church so it isn't the one in Matthew 16:18


277fa6 No.639571

>>639568

You seem to be honest minded. You will find your questions answered.

(not by me btw :D)


f2d4e6 No.639572

>>639570

They argue well what they teach is right, and who am I to think what I believe in is true, against hordes of theologians, far more learned than me, that claim otherwise and also trace back directly to the apostles?

Protestant theologians also have their reasoning (with which I often agree) but they don't have the apostolic succession


b29288 No.639573

>>639560

>Protestant theology

>sounds more correct

There is a standardized Protestant theology now? Color me surprised.


f9bd9c No.639574

>>639572

>They argue well what they teach is right,

Which it is not

>and who am I to think what I believe in is true,

It's called knowing how to read

>against hordes of theologians, far more learned than me,

strait is the gate

>that claim otherwise and also trace back directly to the apostles?

Ha, no they can't

>Protestant theologians also have their reasoning (with which I often agree)

Okay

>but they don't have the apostolic succession

And neither do catholics


f9bd9c No.639575

>>639574

Also appstolistic succession is not ever nentioned in the Bible


f2d4e6 No.639576

>>639573

I meant the 5 solas which are held by all prots, in the specific


f9bd9c No.639577

>>639576

Just so you knkw a lot of prots don't follow sola fide and sola scriptua


f2d4e6 No.639579

>>639574

>it's called knowing how to read

If the Bible were so easy to read, we would not have had so much division


f9bd9c No.639583

>>639579

Because most people don't follow what it says and instead think they know what God is like without reading the Bible.

For example you say women have to obey their husbands which most nowaday Christians reject even though the Bible specifically says it

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.


f2efec No.639591

I have no particular denomination yet, but the catholic faith doesn't seem right for me.

They can say that they're not praying to the saints or Mary all they want, but if you're on your knees holding your hands, you're praying.

Also, faith and works doesn't sit well with me. Jesus's sacrifice is the only thing that gets you into His kingdom.

Not to mention that the catholic church has done many despicable things.

I've been to catholic mass, I've asked God over and over to lead me to the truth, and I'm still not feeling that it is the one true church.


27d7ae No.639621

File: 02a38743eb3a561⋯.jpg (62.61 KB, 500x500, 1:1, 3f82c099031e92d10004c37f72….jpg)

>>639560

That is, if you see the church as an institution rather than a universal body of believers. That isn't to say that the church can't have institutions or structure of any kind, but I can't see it that Jesus himself would create a single, institutional church without leaving behind any kind of structure, rites, laws etc. For that church


032138 No.639629

File: 480b0f1fe7222b0⋯.jpeg (36.87 KB, 244x320, 61:80, E4A6869D-2999-4319-8AB6-6….jpeg)

>>639583

Also they may be reading a false Bible version


15b5f1 No.639634


e1d373 No.639643

File: 4077f2903803f70⋯.gif (853.75 KB, 352x240, 22:15, 1513432088388.gif)

>>639565

>Baptists aren't protestant


79b96f No.639649

>>639579

The issue of legitimacy never made sense to me. The original word we now translate as church didn't mean a legal institution, or even an institution, it meant the body of believers.

The gates of hell shall never prevail against Christians. Whatever institutions they may instigate, that's a different issue.

An institution saying it has sole authority to decree rightness is (1) saying that we can't come to the Father through Christ against biblical teaching, (2) is obviously going to be corrupted and attract corrupt people.

Don't abdicate your responsibility to have a personal connection with the Father through Christ and the Holy Spirit to some institution. Institutions won't save you, ritual will not save you. If you think like that, you're thinking like the Pharisees.

You know the Talmud says to ignore any miracles or heavenly signs and only count as legitimate the decisions of the majority of their elders. Yeah, I noticed the magisterium sounds a lot like that. If God moves me to do something, Imma do it, regardless of institutions. That's why the legitimacy of any Christian institution is always non-existant. People can be a part of the body of Christ, but an institution is always something else.


dbf6b4 No.639653

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>639565

>Baptists aren't protestant


907a7c No.639659

>>639643

>>639653

Are they actually a sub-denomination of protestanism?


7366ef No.639666

File: d9d85cac50af5f8⋯.png (235.82 KB, 497x512, 497:512, Luther.png)

>>639560

Reporting in for Anglicanism. Our bishops are ordained from an Apostolic line, this is true, no matter what Catholics say.

We are theologically Lutheran-ish, but we don't have problems like other protestants with Tradition.

>Advantages

-Few restrictions, yet theologically sound

-Based apologists like CS Lewis and Peter Hitchens

>Disadvantages

-Degeneracy

-Hemorrhaging followers to the Lutherans, the Catholics and the Continuing Anglican movement.

-Being a very open church has its ups and downs


3d9ed4 No.639873

>>639591

Salvation is by grace alone through Christ alone. Faith and works are gifts of justification, mainly they are they evidence of having accepted the grace of God. This is Catholic theology.


3d9ed4 No.639874

>>639666

Book of common prayer article of religion xxv disagrees with you and denies the sacrament of ordination. If you don't believe ordination is a sacrament then you can't ordain hence no apostolic succession


1735b1 No.639884

>>639873

>mainly they are they evidence of having accepted the grace of God

I am pretty sure works are supposed to be a testament of faith you give to God (not that he needs one since he knows everything, but it's about your intentions and your desire for his love more than anything); the idea that you use works as manifest evidence for others to see is a protestant one. Other people are not God and therefore cannot know if you have faith by looking at your works.


3b5ef6 No.639885

File: 66b64784dc1f204⋯.jpg (103.9 KB, 736x739, 736:739, 1d5b52d4d3b88e752de1c348cd….jpg)

>>639666

>Reporting in for Anglicanism

I find it funny that you "people" dare show your face around these parts


1bd06f No.639893

>>639666

>666

Boy satan, atleast TRY to be a bit subtle next time and dont look like a complete failure.


da3c0d No.639913

>>639884

No. That is the heresy of pelagianism to say by ones own works one is saved. Orthodox catholic doctrine states that works are a gift of justification that follow from accepting God's grace. They come from God not from man. Sure this is similar to what some prots may claim but those prots will then contradict that by saying works are not justification so I ignore them.


adcf3d No.639949

File: deb910f5db47b87⋯.jpg (149.44 KB, 635x946, 635:946, when-protestants-answer-ca….jpg)

>>639560

>explain me why your church is legitimate

Ekklesia does not mean "CHURCH" as in the institution of a Church.

Ekklesia, the greek word translated most often into English as "(the) Church" just means assembly.

It doesn't refer to a man-made institution or organisation, it refers to the spiritual assembly of all believers, visa vie: where two or three gather in My name, there I am with them.

And that the gates of hell shall not prevail … well, yeah. Even if every Catholic priest, bishop and pope was deaded and every other apostolic equivalent, and every church building demolished, every block of land sold, every crucifix and every rosary burned, and so on … do you REALLY think the Church had been prevailed against? The Church is God's people, not some corporation chill, I'm using the term with its real meaning that claims "a direct line" from Peter and the other apostles exists in its bishops and other office holders. WE are the Church. Ergo, every last believer will have to be hunted down and killed before the Church has been prevailed against, and not even three generations of Kims has succeeded in that goal in one country.

And while we're on it: the line of apostolic succession, which, by magic, makes this guy who is Bishop of some place a direct successor to the original guy who held that office and was an apostle, ergo and ipso facto, that guy is an apostle by succession. Bishops, like everyone else, get elected. Granted it's by a select few (eg; the conclave), or maybe even only by one, their Archbishop, but it means this claim to "succession" isn't even a spiritual succession – as in the apostle Peter anointed Linus as HIS apostle, and Linus anointed Cletus, and so on. At least hereditary kings have some form of lineage. No, here it's the persistence of the post's existence, I guess. "We can trace a line of elected Bishops of Rome back to Christ's own apostle." Really? THIS is the entirety of the great claim to being "Princes of the Universe"?

It IS true that aside from the Anglicans and, more tenuously, the Lutherans, most protestant church congregations are headed by a dude they either elected themselves – the same way Popes are – as Presbys do, or someone they employed from the phone book, the person who assembled that congregation in the first place, or the person who evangelised the locals and forged by suffering the congregation … and aside from the phone book thing, all are methods the earliest churches used to appoint their bishops, teachers and deacons. In each case, their protty prayers would have been the same prayers for God to direct their choice as the Conclave uses, in purpose if not form at least, so, really, if the same Holy Spirit informs both, how are they so different?

God did not come in human form to establish a renewed hierarchical temple with a reinvigorated priesthood to renew the old corrupted one, he came to tear it down and replace it with Himself as head priest, and with believers' bodies as the Holy of Holies, that is, the seat of the Spirit of God. To wit, we believers are the royal priesthood, we are all now the ones who are supposed to be doing the priestly duties, not hiding in lay organisations waiting for a priest to fart us into action. Hierarchy and rigid memberships to a specific organisation and successions are not what Christ was establishing, and certainly not what the Book of Acts or any of Paul's letters describe.

So, you can see from this, OP, that the "problem of legitimacy" is a paper tiger in this protestant's eyes. The legitimacy of any congregation (I don't say "church" for there is not 100,000 "churches" but one Church) is rooted in the Spirit that exists in the congregants' hearts as true believers whom Christ "knows". Now, you may say, "But the host, anon, the hoooost. If not one of His own priests celebrates the Eucharist, how will Christ know where to turn wafer into flesh?" … and there we can have an entirely different discussion. Suffice to say that if the Elders of a congregation anoint and lay-on of hands a leader from amongst them, and they have the same Spirit, they are repeating the same pattern the New Testament describes. We are not a religion of very carefully performed rituals, we are a spiritual union with our God. He knows whom He has called out from the world.

But, look, I get it, these are controversial ideas for some people. If such loose ideas about who is "in" and who is "out" of the Church is too discomforting, by all means, join an apostolic church and cling to the idea that your membership, that your name on the church roll is what grants you your election into salvation, not the Spirit who lives within you, and not the fact that Christ can say, "You, in life, I knew. Welcome into your rest."


adcf3d No.639952

File: bfe1dc92088f0a3⋯.jpg (38.11 KB, 423x272, 423:272, reagan-thumbs-up-for-a-fiv….jpg)


7366ef No.639953

File: 56a70dcc26b4ecd⋯.jpg (64.63 KB, 780x438, 130:73, MarxismEverywhere.jpg)

>>639949

Well said

As fun as it is to argue who's in succession, we're all screwed if we allow Marxism to flourish in any Church. We will end up being ruled by a despot like the Kims, and they will persecute us for the reason that we serve another King.


8b5478 No.639975

File: 2ed1c097b95413b⋯.jpg (13.78 KB, 481x499, 481:499, 2ed1c097b95413bb8e3ab39c8c….jpg)

>>639569

>how can I become baptist when the Catholic/Orthodox church can trace its legitimacy to the apostles?

The scribes and Pharisees could trace their legitimacy back to Moses, that didn't make them right. What >>639570 said.

>>639579

If everyone accepted the Bible at face value, there would be no division. (We would all be IFB).


474658 No.639999

File: b2d97be8dbe7cf9⋯.pdf (1.16 MB, Kingdom of God_ A Baptist ….pdf)

>>639560

You should look into reformed protestant covenant theology for an answer to your question. Here is a pretty easy book from a 1689 baptist.

Specifically look at how the Church is the "spiritual offspring of Abraham". As a spiritual offspring, our organization, unity, and succession is not primarily physical by the laying on of hands. If the Church were the physical offspring then the state of Israel would be the true Church, but we all agree in principal to a discontinuity between the two covenant peoples.

So if the Church is the spiritual offspring, then it means that when we are looking for the true church, we ought to look for the operation of the Holy Spirit in it. This operation is evident in the people by; the renewed life (Romans 8:5-6), the preeminence of Christ in all things (John 16:13-14), the fulfillment of or duty to preach the gospel (2 Timothy 4:5), the right teaching of doctrine (1 Corinthians 2:15-16), and the right ministration of the holy ordinances (1 Corinthians 11:17-21). These criteria have lead me to the reformed baptist church as the most pure, but remember there is room for some diversity even within the Church universal.

I hope this helps.


3b5ef6 No.640005

>>639975

>We would all be IFB

But "baptists" are also divided among themselves???


50dcfe No.640006

>>639659

You can't be protestant if you aren't protesting the Catholic Church. Protestants are called protestant because they're protesting the church to reform it. Baptists want nothing to do with Catholicism and could care less what they "reform".


3b5ef6 No.640007

>>639999

>our spiritual union isn't through the spiritual communication of the Spirit by the laying on of hands

Nice meme


3b5ef6 No.640009

>>640006

>Protestants are called protestant because they're protesting the church to reform it.

I'm sure all those l*therans and c*lvinists all would to join the Church if the pope would just give in to their demands. Ha.


474658 No.640011

>>640007

>John 3:8 KJV

(8)  "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."


fe405a No.640012

>>639560

>But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If our gospel be Paul's our churches alone are legitimate


61a69a No.640015

>>640011

Start arguing any time


474658 No.640042

>>640015

OP doesn't want a debate.

If you do, then start your own thread.


61a69a No.640058

>>640042

>cast stone

>hide hand

>"how dare you"

I read that as an admission to having no argument


474658 No.640061

>>640058

How is truthfully answering a specific question from OP about what my denomination believes attacking you?


b1ae10 No.640120

>>640061

>truthfully

But that's wrong, see >>640007


f27f4e No.640699

>>639568

I will try to help at least give you some resources to start out. I'm phone-posting so I have limited ability to copy and paste. First of all, the anti-Nicene Christian written record is scant in comparison to later periods so you have to adjust your expectations somewhat. Defending the Church against Protestantism (or if you suppose the early Church were Protestant, against Catholicism) wouldn't have been an explicit focus for them since they were unaware of these later controversies. In addition, there no real complete systematic expositions of the Christian faith from this period. So if you think, "why didn't they right more clearly or in more volume about topic X?" keep some perspective.

First, the succession of popes is clearly set out by Irenaeus (he also gives a succession for the Church of Smyrna). He does not explicitly discuss papal prerogatives here, but that's not the purpose of the passage. The purpose is an appeal to antiquity of the established Catholic churches versus the newness of the heretics.

>1. It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these [heretics] rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to the perfect apart and privily from the rest, they would have delivered them especially to those to whom they were also committing the Churches themselves. For they were desirous that these men should be very perfect and blameless in all things, whom also they were leaving behind as their successors, delivering up their own place of government to these men; which men, if they discharged their functions honestly, would be a great boon [to the Church], but if they should fall away, the direst calamity.


f27f4e No.640700

>2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].

>3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed into the hands of Linus the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles. In the time of this Clement, no small dissension having occurred among the brethren at Corinth, the Church in Rome dispatched a most powerful letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace, renewing their faith, and declaring the tradition which it had lately received from the apostles, proclaiming the one God, omnipotent, the Maker of heaven and earth, the Creator of man, who brought on the deluge, and called Abraham, who led the people from the land of Egypt, spoke with Moses, set forth the law, sent the prophets, and who has prepared fire for the devil and his angels. From this document, whosoever chooses to do so, may learn that He, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, was preached by the Churches, and may also understand the apostolic tradition of the Church, since this Epistle is of older date than these men who are now propagating falsehood, and who conjure into existence another god beyond the Creator and the Maker of all existing things. To this Clement there succeeded Evaristus. Alexander followed Evaristus; then, sixth from the apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telephorus, who was gloriously martyred; then Hyginus; after him, Pius; then after him, Anicetus. Soter having succeeded Anicetus, Eleutherius does now, in the twelfth place from the apostles, hold the inheritance of the episcopate. In this order, and by this succession, the ecclesiastical tradition from the apostles, and the preaching of the truth, have come down to us. And this is most abundant proof that there is one and the same vivifying faith, which has been preserved in the Church from the apostles until now, and handed down in truth.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm


7b270d No.640705

>>639659

Aren’t they sort of like Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses?


f27f4e No.640706

>>639568

Apostolic succession is not hard to prove, and probably not what you think it is. It is just the idea that bishops derive episcopal authority from their ordination by other bishops, and that this line of succession traces back to the Apostles. Putting this in opposition to "apostolic tradition" is wrong. If a bishop deviates from the apostolic tradition by falling into pertinacious heresy, they are still validly ordained, but they lose their authority as a Catholic bishop. So apostolic succession and tradition worl together. You can see this in Irenaeus' Against Heretics and Tertullian's Prescriptiom against Heretics.

Another early patristic passage is from the Epistle of Clement of Rome, where Clement tells the Corinthians that they can't depose the lawfully appointed clergy and set up their own. Not very low church at all.

The idea of "improvement and deviation" is not really an accurate description of Catholic doctrine. Catholics do not teach in contradiction with apostolic teaching. There is an idea of doctrinal development, which is that things that were not taught so explicitly in the New Testament may be drawn out and expanded upon. The most obvious example is the Trinity, which is not explicitly taught in Scripture, but the principles behind it are.


f27f4e No.640709

>>639568

This short book by Adrian Fortescue is an argument for the papacy from early sources. His cutoff point is the Council of Chalcedon, so if you insist of the arbitrary cutoff of 325, you can just ignore the later sources I suppose. The book is public domain, but I can't find any free online copies other than this page (click Full View to read the book).

https://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/100645762


045b17 No.640823

>>639565

<baptists aren't protestant

>citation needed

I never get tired of this headcanon


63d34d No.640830

>>640823

baptists are secret catholic order sent to make real protestants look bad


5016c1 No.640899

>>640706

>It is just the idea that bishops derive episcopal authority from their ordination by other bishops

I think there are multiple views of this, since I have seen many say it is the idea priests have their priesthood by ordination the line of which goes back to the apostles.

>and that this line of succession traces back to the Apostles

And this is where apostolic succession as you define it becomes impossible to prove. Not only because most bishoprics don't even claim knowledge of each previous bishop, let alone prove it, (thus making the line of succession an unfalsifiable empty claim), but also because the apostles ordained no bishops. The apostles ordained elders, who together as a group ruled individual churches, not bishops who alone lord over priests (another novel office). This is seen in scripture, for example Philippians 1:1

<To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons

>If a bishop deviates from the apostolic tradition by falling into pertinacious heresy, they are still validly ordained, but they lose their authority as a Catholic bishop

So which is it, do bishops derive their authority from ordination by valid bishops, or their orthodoxy? If it is the former, they cannot forfeit this authority by heresy.

>Another early patristic passage is from the Epistle of Clement of Rome, where Clement tells the Corinthians that they can't depose the lawfully appointed clergy and set up their own. Not very low church at all.

What Clement said (speaking on behalf of the church of Rome not as bishop of Rome) was that the system of elders had been established by God, so they could not be justified in rejecting it.

>There is an idea of doctrinal development, which is that things that were not taught so explicitly in the New Testament may be drawn out and expanded upon. The most obvious example is the Trinity, which is not explicitly taught in Scripture, but the principles behind it are.

The trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture inasmuch as the nicene creed is not in the bible. However, the trinity is actually taught in scripture, and its components are explicitly taught most clearly. Compare this to things "implicitly" taught in the bible, like the bodily assumption, allegedly taught by a passage in Revelation (famous for its eccentric symbolism and allegories) about a woman in the sky being rescued from satan, without actually identifying this woman as Mary or claiming she was assumed bodily into heaven, or even giving indication that this is intended to be a literal passage at all, or the immaculate conception and sinlessness of Mary, which is "implicitly" in the greeting "Hail, you who have been graced". This is not so much proper development of the faith once delivered in scripture as it encounters false religions and heresies, and more doctrinal evolution and innovation, with novelties being inserted back into a bible which knew nothing of them.

>>640709

So I just looked at it, and found this truly striking

<When one Anglican has admitted that he finds a constitutional Papacy in the fathers and Councils down to 451, another Anglican, possibly still more learned in patrology, will deny that these old texts mean any real primacy at all. We shall go on arguing about the meaning of the fathers even more hopelessly than we have argued for centuries about the meaning of Matthew 16:18. The only possible real standard is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment, that can answer your difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents.

To translate: Nothing is to have any epistemic authority whatsoever but the papacy alone. This is why papism is so dangerous, it serves to remove God from His throne and enslave the will of man to the papacy, if it and scripture conflict, the pope prevails, if it and tradition conflict, the pope prevails, if it and reason conflict, the pope prevails. Since to the pope is made the "living authority", which decides right or wrong, the pope is granted the power to make true and false at will. God is outright denied the right to do as Jude 3 says and once for all deliver a faith, no, it is said this must be subjected to a "living authority", which can change it at will, and having changed it, it becomes having always been so. The pope is granted the power to alter reality as he sees fit, in one instant the truth is as it is, and the next it is as it becomes, as Ignatius Loyala said, "if she [the church] shall have defined anything to be black which to our eyes appears to be white, we ought in like manner to pronounce it black". Let no one make any mistake, that is precicely what that means, in practice if not in theory, and in light of that fact, it is clear that the pope, standing in the very temple of God, declared himself to be God.


7b270d No.640972

>>639953

Why doesn’t anyone ever print the Popes quote on this photo? The second he was handed this thing in a very awkward public setting, purposefully being set up and put on the spot, he held it in his hands looked down at it and said, “This is wrong.”


f2c1a9 No.647263

>>640899

>I think there are multiple views of this, since I have seen many say it is the idea priests have their priesthood by ordination the line of which goes back to the apostles.

This is not a different view. This is just a corollary to episcopal apostolic succession. Priests are ordained by bishops who trace their ordination back to the apostles, so priests also trace their ordination back to the apostles.

>And this is where apostolic succession as you define it becomes impossible to prove. Not only because most bishoprics don't even claim knowledge of each previous bishop, let alone prove it, (thus making the line of succession an unfalsifiable empty claim), but also because the apostles ordained no bishops. The apostles ordained elders, who together as a group ruled individual churches, not bishops who alone lord over priests (another novel office). This is seen in scripture, for example Philippians 1:1

Apostolic succession is not any more impossible to prove than any other historical fact. We don't have lists of lines of ordination for all clerics, but we do for the pope for example, and papal succession is just as much a verifiable historical fact as the succession of American presidents or the kings of England. For bishops that have no record of their complete line of ordination, we still know their orders are valid because we know how ordinations were done throughout history, and know that the ordination would have been valid at each step of succession. Episcopal consecrations are performed together by multiple bishops and if there were doubt about a bishop's ordination, it would be known and rejected by their brother Catholic bishops. The idea that apostolic succession cannot be known is a conspiratorial mindset.

You are reading Presbyterian views into the text that are simply not stated. The term priest (from "presbyteros" meaning elder) and bishop ("episcopos" meaning overseer) are both used in the NT. The argument is that the terms are used seemingly interchangeably in places, so therefore the Catholic distinction between priest and bishop is false. That's a fallacy because even if those  terms did not carry their current sense, that does not mean that the distinct offices that they designate did not exist. Further, if we suppose that the terms did have the same meaning, it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine to refer to a bishop as a priest since bishops are also priests. We also see the distinction between bishops and priests early in the church fathers

The idea of "elders, who together as a group ruled individual churches" as contradicting bishops and priests is fallacious. In the New Testament era, the Church was small and dispersed, so the diocese and the parish would have been equivalent. Secondly, a diocese can have multiple bishops. Even today the Diocese of Rome has multiple bishops beside Francis.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocese_of_Rome

Having multiple bishops, priests elders or whatever word you use does not mean that they are all equal in authority. Pope Francis is the chief bishop of Rome and the other bishops, while still his brother bishops, are auxiliary bishops.

>So which is it, do bishops derive their authority from ordination by valid bishops, or their orthodoxy? If it is the former, they cannot forfeit this authority by heresy.

That's a false dilemma. Someone who is orthodox does not become a bishop just by being orthodox. They have to be ordained a bishop. A bishop that becomes a heretic loses his jurisdiction as a Catholic bishop although he still retains holy orders.


f2c1a9 No.647264

>>640899

> The trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture inasmuch as the nicene creed is not in the bible. However, the trinity is actually taught in scripture, and its components are explicitly taught most clearly. Compare this to things "implicitly" taught in the bible, like the bodily assumption, allegedly taught by a passage in Revelation (famous for its eccentric symbolism and allegories) about a woman in the sky being rescued from satan, without actually identifying this woman as Mary or claiming she was assumed bodily into heaven, or even giving indication that this is intended to be a literal passage at all, or the immaculate conception and sinlessness of Mary, which is "implicitly" in the greeting "Hail, you who have been graced". This is not so much proper development of the faith once delivered in scripture as it encounters false religions and heresies, and more doctrinal evolution and innovation, with novelties being inserted back into a bible which knew nothing of them.

It's a big assumption to say that no matters of faith are taught symbolically in Scripture. If that were so, then the book of Revelation (which as you say is full of allegory) could not teach much of anything, and you would be forced to discard it as Luther did. Further, the Bible never claims to be the only source of our doctrine, and it's a big assumption to assume that it is. The early Church (including in the first century) didn't treat Scripture as such.

>To translate: Nothing is to have any epistemic authority whatsoever but the papacy alone.

That's a big jump. What he's saying is that constructing a religion from scratch based entirely on our personal interpretation of source documents is going to result in radically divergent opinions about how that religion should work. And that is not obvious enough from common sense, we have proof from the Protestants interpreting the same Bible into 30,000 Protestant denominations.


111db6 No.647318

>>647263

>Priests are ordained by bishops who trace their ordination back to the apostles, so priests also trace their ordination back to the apostles.

Then it isn't a succession of episcopal office but priestly mark.

>we do for the pope for example

The list of papal succession is anachronistic and self contradictory. For example, it counts Alexander VI, but he titled himself sextus on account of Alexander V, who was from the line of Pisa, and is titled an antipope.

>For bishops that have no record of their complete line of ordination, we still know their orders are valid because we know how ordinations were done throughout history, and know that the ordination would have been valid at each step of succession

As I said, that is an unfalsifiable empty claim.

>The idea that apostolic succession cannot be known is a conspiratorial mindset.

No, it's just a logical look at history.

>You are reading Presbyterian views into the text that are simply not stated

No, I'm letting the text speak for itself. There is never any distinction made between overseers and elders, and certainly none within the office. One must read the later development of monoepiscopacy into the New Testament to have it there (which, of course you do, since if Jesus did not establish bishops, all the claims of Rome are false).

>The term priest (from "presbyteros" meaning elder)

As you just said, it meant elder. Presbyteros attained the meaning 'priest' centuries after the New Testament with the evolution of a Christian priesthood. Christians called their clerics elders, so when they came to see them as priests, elder came to mean priest.

>both used in the NT

Yes, but the former is not used in reference to a Christian office (hiereus is used only of Jesus, or the Jewish priests, or pagan priests), and the latter is used synonymously with presbyteros (which also had a non-priestly old covenant backround).

>seemingly interchangeably

Not seemingly interchangeably, outright interchangeably, i.e. Titus 1:5-7

<This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach.

>That's a fallacy because even if those  terms did not carry their current sense, that does not mean that the distinct offices that they designate did not exist

Thing is, scripture lays out instructions for these offices. Apart from the aforementioned Titus 1, there is also 1 Timothy 3, which lay out qualifications for these offices. We have nothing for the offices which are also unseen in scripture. The New Testament recognizes two offices, elders and deacons.


111db6 No.647319

>>647263

>Further, if we suppose that the terms did have the same meaning, it doesn't contradict Catholic doctrine to refer to a bishop as a priest since bishops are also priests

Well they aren't called priests, and they are absolutely never distinguished. If we derive our ecclesiology from the text instead of looking for ways to fit our ecclesiology into the text it won't matter how compatible our ecclessiology is if it isn't what the scriptures are actually giving us.

>We also see the distinction between bishops and priests early in the church fathers

Yeah, in the ones where it had already developed, but you're ignoring the handful of fathers where it hadn't, not to mention Jerome, who said in the days of the apostles there was no difference between the two.

>The idea of "elders, who together as a group ruled individual churches" as contradicting bishops and priests is fallacious. In the New Testament era, the Church was small and dispersed, so the diocese and the parish would have been equivalent. Secondly, a diocese can have multiple bishops

Again, it doesn't matter if you can find ways to fit the Roman Catholic hierarchy into the bible, it still has nothing to do with the bible.

>Having multiple bishops, priests elders or whatever word you use does not mean that they are all equal in authority

But having no distinction between them does

>That's a false dilemma

No it isn't, because if the episcopacy is dependent on valid ordination then it is independent of orthodoxy, and they will remain bishops so long as their ordination remains valid, otherwise it wouldn't be dependent on valid ordination.

>A bishop that becomes a heretic loses his jurisdiction as a Catholic bishop although he still retains holy orders

So holy orders do not make bishops?


111db6 No.647320

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>647264

>It's a big assumption to say that no matters of faith are taught symbolically in Scripture

One which I did not espouse

>Further, the Bible never claims to be the only source of our doctrine

You can go ahead and find another source for your theology if you don't want a divine religion. For my part, I want my faith to be based on what God has revealed.

>The early Church (including in the first century) didn't treat Scripture as such

But they did treat it as the only source of revelation

>That's a big jump

It's the logical meaning of the words.

>What he's saying is that constructing a religion from scratch based entirely on our personal interpretation of source documents is going to result in radically divergent opinions about how that religion should work

Is that what he said? I thought he said we need a living (changing) authority (specifically, the papacy) because otherwise we can know nothing objectively. Hence why he says this authority can reject theories and determine the meaning of documents. It makes the pope the foundation of one's epistemology, the final authority to which all else (including the very word of God) is subject and disqualified upon contradiction. What he's saying is that the reason he believes the bible and the early church show a papacy is the papacy tells him to see it.

>radically divergent opinions about how that religion should work

We certainly don't see that with sola scriptura, since groups which hold to it are the most united of those who claim to be Christian (compare with groups who oppose the principle, such as Romanists, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses).

>30,000 Protestant denominations

False witness.


88646d No.647331

File: 36fd9dcc5c1fc44⋯.jpg (12.71 KB, 464x447, 464:447, 5c762be881d64eff8fe54f6968….jpg)

>>639560

come home (whatever race) man


56ecec No.648262

File: 0ce9b5e07f0b544⋯.gif (492.69 KB, 1080x1080, 1:1, 0ce9b5e07f0b54437623b44581….gif)

>>639560

>Ekklesia

>assembly of believers

How do I lend legitimacy to one's faith in the triune God?

The real issue is what the hell a "church" is, what you think is, what it thinks it is, and why anyone would lend allegiance to it over God and his words.

If someone is Christian then they are part of the only Assembly; if they are anything else before being a Christian, such as catholic or baptist, they likely aren't Christians.


293741 No.648349

It comes down to whether you have faith in the word of God or not. If you can't bring yourself to trust that it is telling the truth, you will have nothing left worthy of trusting in. But God cannot lie.

Hebrews 6:13-20

For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,

Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.

Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Luke 11:9-13

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Isaiah 45:22-23

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


293741 No.648356

>>648349

Oh yeah I almost forgot, 1 John 4:1 tells you believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God. As some believe the word of God, and some do not. And Jesus also said ye shall know them by their fruits.

If you believe the word is true, they are out there, they have always been until he returns. Even in times when it may seem like nobody else believes or has any respect for these things, God has yet reserved 7000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.


d315e7 No.648357

>>639949

This was a great post. Read it whole




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