/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I'm sorry you haven't been able to find adequate spiritual satisfaction yet. He sounds like a lovely man and I hope he goes to heaven, despite the uncertainty of him not being in the Orthodox church.

I was very dissatisfied with the Lutheranism of my youth. It provided a good foundation when I decided to return to religion in my late teens, but I found Protestantism overall to be theologically unsound and sometimes outright cruel.

I've been discerning into Orthodoxy for a long while now, and I'm going to start attend church soon. From reading Fr. Seraphim Rose, Kallistos Ware, listening to countless podcasts on the subject, I've become convinced that the Orthodox church is the church founded by Jesus and the apostles, the church of the early church fathers, the desert fathers, the church the gates of Hell will never prevail against. Only the Orthodox have sufficiently preserved the Nicene Creed, the essence-energies distinction, and patristic theology, with the Coptic Orthodox as a close second.

I hope you do keep inquiring into Orthodoxy, I'd recommend the podcasts Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy, No Other Justification, Rome is Burning (their religious episodes in particular), and Fr. Spyridon's videos.

The thing with justification by faith alone vs works is it's a false dichotomy. We who subscribe to Orthodox patristic theology do not believe you acquire salvation points by doing good things, but that we participate in the mystery of life in Christ, and that true faith and theosis includes trying to act justly and kindly. The "works" are really just the ceremonial law of the Israelites. We're not saved through rituals, but through theosis, participation in - and unity with the uncreated divifying energies of God.

I hope your family will understand in time. They tend to be happy just that you remain Christian. We must always put truth first, even if it means being alone with Christ, but it's a far lighter cross to bear than eternal separation from God.

Have you visited an Orthodox church and attended Liturgy? Spoken to the priest there? Have you read any of the writings of the church fathers? The order that you do these things isn't important, but I recommend such actions. I simply showed up to liturgy one morning and afterwards spoke with the priest about what I was looking for and he recommended some readings for me to start with (everything by Kallistos Ware is fantastic, though he's a modern writer). What does your wife think of this? Is she in your same situation?

>>635117

My wife trusts me with theological things because I've been intensely studying them for years, and she is only recently taking it seriously. That said, her family is a Baptist one, her dad is a stalwart Baptist theologian, and the "Eastern-ness" of the Liturgy, vesting, even architecture might be a bit much on her. I haven't spoken with her much about it tbh.

>>635117

Forgot to mention this, but we're also going to go to a Vespers service in a couple weeks when I have Saturday off, hopefully I can talk to a priest then

the orthoprot meme is real

>>635127

orthodox gets to have the apostolic authority, but still keeps the things most american protestants really want

which is sex in regards to priesthood/marriage, and disobedience to an authority figure, which I think is pretty uniquely American

>>635118

>>635119

Family is always the hardest to deal with, especially practicing Baptists. You and your wife will be in my prayers friend. If you have the time, I'd recommend you two read and study together about this a bit, perhaps after the vespers service when you speak to the priest ask for his suggestion as to what to start with. Send him an email as well if you haven't already, giving him a heads up that you're going to be there.

>>635128

I just want objective truth and a life pleasing and acceptable to God.

And a history of papal inconsistency and horrible scandal combined with a dogma of absolute incorruptibility of the church doesn't sit well with the part of my brain that can into logic.

>>635107

Try an OPC church

>>635131

Even the popes themselves admit that Papal Supremacy is a latter theological development. Nowhere in the church fathers would you find anything similar. Even Paul corrected St Peter on the Judaizing issue, without Peter invoking his supposed Papal Authority. I hope you find your way to mother church, and I hope we meet in heaven.

>>635131

>humans being corrupted is scandalous to me

>Matthew 16:18 is illogical to me

Get your life sorted out my man

>>635133

>Even Paul corrected St Peter on the Judaizing issue, without Peter invoking his supposed Papal Authority.

Popes still get corrected, it's only when theological pronouncements ex cathedra or done is it a no-go, which most Popes never do.

Another symptom of Americanism, is that people have 0 idea of how the Papal authority actually operates. Any Pope who tried to push doctrine that is anathema would get de-Poped, and any announcements ex-cathedra come out after meeting with the rest of the Church, too.

The whole point of Papal Supremacy is that legit agreements carry TRUE AUTHORITY stamped with the Holy Spirit.

>>635131

>dogma of absolute incorruptibility of the church doesn't sit well with the part of my brain that can into logic.

the incorruptibility of the Church does not apply to the human operators, you should fire your almonds more.

>>635139

Protestants have more in common with Catholicism than they do with the Orthodox, I don't know of many Orthodox-Protestant conversions that really work well.

>>635131

how much do you really know of inconcistencies and scandals in the history of the Orthodoxy Church? Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it's not there:

https://www.pokrov.org/

If you feel like becoming Orthodox, begome, I have no quarrel with it. Just don't point to things like that as some proof that Orthodoxy is true, because perfection is not of this world, and certainily not in any institution in the world that is made up of men

>>635142

>Protestants have more in common with Catholicism than they do with the Orthodox

strongly disagree. Protestantism and Orthodoxy have more in common because their doctrines in one way or another arise from a rejection of this or that Catholic dogma. That is true for Orthodoxy too, where their doctrine evolved, especially since the 19th century, in a constant attempt to pose themselves as an anti-thesis of Catholicism.

> I don't know of many Orthodox-Protestant conversions that really work well.

The internet is full orthoprots that go on youtube video asking for a "debate" and throwing around their talking points they never researched themselves, exactly like they used to do when they were prots. So yeah, it depends what you mean by "it doesn't work well".

>>635146

>That is true for Orthodoxy too, where their doctrine evolved, especially since the 19th century, in a constant attempt to pose themselves as an anti-thesis of Catholicism.

Can you post an example where orthodox changed when the catholics stayed the ssme?

Isn't the inception of catholicism the roman cardinal wanting to change doctrine?

I'm neither so I only heard about it.

>>635147

>Can you post an example where orthodox changed when the catholics stayed the ssme?

It is pointless to argue about this kind of thing. Both doctrines evolved organically over time (which does not mean they changed), I only made a difference about how one doctrine just did its own thing while the other one evolved to give itself an antithetical identity that frankly isn't really there to begin with.

>Isn't the inception of catholicism the roman cardinal wanting to change doctrine?

The inception is the East not wanting to submit to the authority of the Pope. When the Churches were united most heresies actually came from the East and it was the West that had to fight against them.

But I don't want to start a pointless discussion about history. It's ok if someone chooses Orthodoxy, I just don't like the abuse of memes repeated cluelessly and the adversary attitude that some have.

>>635147

>Isn't the inception of catholicism the roman cardinal wanting to change doctrine?

It being so cartoonish and brazen should throw up more than a few red flags regarding is verisimilitude

>>635150

>I only made a difference about how one doctrine just did its own thing while the other one evolved to give itself an antithetical identity that frankly isn't really there to begin with

My question was how did you come to that conclusion. What events unfolded that made it so.

>>635133

The popes always attempted to assert what they viewed as their rightful supremacy. Later popes do not say that papal supremacy is a novel development. That is a misreading of what Benedict XVI said. The way supremacy is exercises has changed from the early days, but the pope has always been chief among his fellow bishops.

b u o m p

>>635131

>And a history of papal inconsistency and horrible scandal combined with a dogma of absolute incorruptibility of the church doesn't sit well with the part of my brain that can into logic.

papists on suicide watch

Bumping with related history.

>>635254

Thanks for that, it was exactly what I wanted to know

>>635137

I don't get how that's different than saying he's just another bishop. On paper it makes a difference, I guess. In practice I don't see any difference. And the whole caesaro-papism critique - that Orthodox patriarchs will kiss the ass of the state - doesn't really apply to the vast world of Orthodoxy and I don't see how that wouldn't apply to post V2 popes. They might not be subservient to a particular state but they still appear to be subservient to worldly politics except that it's globalist ie they more or less endorse the European Union rather than endorsing, say, Putin.

>>635128

We have an authority figure in Jesus Christ and he chastises us with the conviction of the holy spirit. Having other authority figures in play just seems like a way of spreading the authority around if you ask me.

>>635146

>This is how Catholics think

But just think about it. Calvinists could say Catholics and Pentecostals have something in common because they reject TULIP. What a preposterous characterization.

>>637480

>>637492

Then you should ask Christ why He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, and ask why He breathed the authority of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles. Also, that whole pentacost thing, you know about this right?

If Christ is your sole authority, why do you persist in denying His authority?

>>637489

only the orthodox church has had the courage to remain an ethnic sect, true

>>637495

Because I don't have any faith that a man like Jean Paul II or Francis could have sole legal right to those keys. As the Bible says, we will know them by their fruits. Papal authority is a failed hypothesis at this point.

>>637500

>Because I don't have any faith that a man like Jean Paul II or Francis could have sole legal right to those keys.

Then you deny Christ and His authority. He gave the keys to St. Peter, and the Petrine Seat has existed since that time. Just because it may hurt your feelings, does not mean that Christ did not institute the mandate.

>As the Bible says, we will know them by their fruits. Papal authority is a failed hypothesis at this point.

Yes, the fruit of 2,000 years of an unbroken Church.

>>637501

>He gave the keys to St. Peter

True.

>and the Petrine Seat has existed since that time

The one in Antioch or the one in Rome?

>Just because it may hurt your feelings, does not mean that Christ did not institute the mandate.

What mandate?

>Yes, the fruit of 2,000 years of an unbroken Church.

What was the Reformation?

>>637502

The Pope is not a deity, neither was St. Peter a deity. Yet, the pronouncements made ex cathedra MUST HAVE THE MARK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, or they are just paper.

Until you realize this, then you will understand the need to recognize apostolic authority. It's not the Catholic Church's fault the Orthodox undermine their own apostolic authority by pretending the Petrine seat doesn't exist.

>he doesn't even wear a Geneva gown or use the hymnal, and we have deaconesses.

American orthodox in a nutshell. Entirely focused on what other people do and how he looks, rather than focused on God.

>>637503

>The one in Antioch or the one in Rome?

Rome.

>What mandate?

Petrine seat.

>What was the Reformation?

God's will working throughout history. Despite the massive success of the thieves of the Reformation, the Catholic Church still stands, despite being made a target of the British Kingdom and Empire for a good 300 years.

As the false Churches get swallowed up, the Catholic Church will stand even unto the arrival of Christ. As He promised.

>>637504

>The Pope is not a deity

This seems to be the only "mystery" The Catholic church cares to maintain

>>637504

papal authority*

>>637507

You lie.

>>637506

>Rome.

Why does Peter's seat in Rome carry more authority than his original seat in Antioch?

>Petrine seat.

What does that mean?

>God's will working throughout history.

You made the claim that the Church is unbroken, don't shift the goalposts.

>>637501

You deny Christ and his authority because your popes already did that on your behalf through the ecumenical councils

>>637511

The closest thing to a split in the Catholic Church was the western schism. Eastern/reformation is a bunch of states deciding they don't like the Church telling it what to do/holding land. Only Russians/Serbs think the Orthodox is anything more than an ethnic schism.

>>637513

for instance? nicene creed?

>>635254

Thank you for this

>>637648

I meant when John Paul II brought in a bunch of voodoo priests and other leaders from other religions and engaged in their rituals and set up places of worship to false idols in the Vatican. There is no excuse for it, least of all the fact that he's the pope.

>>635131

>Even Paul corrected St Peter on the Judaizing issue, without Peter invoking his supposed Papal Authority.

It is questionable whether Paul rebuked Peter at all.

A very interesting video on the subject.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxDvhDIiVc0&ab_channel=vaticancatholic.com

>>638904

Orthodoxy and Pentecostalism are the two most related denominations of Christianity because they've both maintained the spirit of truth.

>>637503

>muh antioch petrine see

St. Peter was alive as the bishop of Rome during St. Evodius' time as Patriarch. The true successor to the keys given to Peter is the Roman bishop, who was St. Linus.