/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>613511

It's entirely your fault every single time you sin. You didn't have to, you chose to.

>it's God's fault I hate Him and love sin

>Why should I feel bad about my "sins"?

Because they are an offense to God and corrode your love for Him and for other people and especially yourself.

>It seems to me like this is all God's fault for not creating me perfect.

Well you're wrong.

Also, perfection doesn't avail you shit. Adam and Eve were perfect, and look what happened to them.

>It's not my fault I'm not perfect, so asking for forgiveness for my mistakes is just like asking for forgiveness for being born, a pointless endeavor.

It's not your fault you're not perfect, but it certainly is your fault that you're not even trying to be. Calling sins "mistakes" makes it sound like it's a bug "whoopsei-daisy" moment, and not that they are calculated transgressions against His Law.

If you don't think that apologising or making up with other people is a waste of time, you certainly shouldn't hold it for Him.

>>613513

>>613514

Why God couldn't have created people without the desire to sin? Just explain me that.

>>613517

>Because they are an offense to God

God expects too much in my opinion.

>Adam and Eve were perfect

How so? They obviously made a mistake. Someone perfect does everything flawlessly.

>It's not your fault you're not perfect, but it certainly is your fault that you're not even trying to be

God does expect humans to be perfect, that's why he got the point of sacrificing himself brutally. If it was just about self improvement and trying your best, God could just ignore some sins, maybe sinning too much could be considered wrong, but sinning sometimes is an integral part of being human, it's inevitable, expected from fallible creatures. But God doesn't think like that.

>>613527

>Why God couldn't have created people without the desire to sin?

He because God wants people to have free will. No sin = no free will. No free will = we are no different from the animals. God created Man to be different from animals. Even so, Adam and Eve themselves were created without the desire to sin, but that was because they had no concept of it. They gained a concept of sin when the Serpent tempted Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and in turn tempted Adam to do the same. This is the Original Sin. Why doesn't He erase the Original Sin? Because man is different from the animals in that man has free will where as animals do not, as it should be.

>>613527

>God expects too much in my opinion.

Such as?

>How so? They obviously made a mistake. Someone perfect does everything flawlessly.

No, they don't. Someone perfect is someone who is complete, whole. Being born with original sin is a defect and is therefore "imperfect" since we no longer have that direct communion with Him which Adam and Eve lost in their consent to sin. It is achievable in this life, but it is very, very hard.

>God does expect humans to be perfect, that's why he got the point of sacrificing himself brutally.

It's more accurate to say that He requests this of us. Trying is good enough, but you must earnestly persevere until the end.

>If it was just about self improvement and trying your best, God could just ignore some sins, maybe sinning too much could be considered wrong,

He does. Minor sins won't go unpunished, but they are not enough to keep you from Heaven (i.e. going to Purgatory until you are cleansed). Few if anyone get to true perfection, becuase our selfish nature means that we will just about always fall short of what is asked of us through fear, cowardice, complacence etc.

But then again, why are you making the arument that sinning too much could be wrong if you yourself seem unrepentant?

>but sinning sometimes is an integral part of being human, it's inevitable, expected from fallible creatures. But God doesn't think like that.

It's not integral in that it's like food or drink. We can theoretically live without sin, even if we can't live without the effect of sin (sickness, death, ageing, being hated by others etc.) It is expected that we will sin, but it not an expectation that we should just throw up our hands and say "well, can't help it, i was born that way lol!". You have to fight yourself to overcome it as much as you can.

And He does think like that. Technically we don't even need to die perfect, just in a state of santifying grace. What happens to us afterwards with regard to Purgatory is up to Him, but He expects that our fight is difficult. He does not accept, however, that we simply give up because it's too hard or that He "asks too much". He gives us the sacraments of confession and Communion (i.e. literally giving Himself to us every dya if we want). How is this Him not thinking like that?

>>613527

Why did people decide to sin? You have a view of God that is way too personal, you must go to Him, not He to you. You must go to serve Him, not He to you. You must judge things by His standards, not Him by yours. Cease your sin.

>>613529

Does God have free will?

>>613531

>It's more accurate to say that He requests this of us. Trying is good enough, but you must earnestly persevere until the end.

>It is expected that we will sin, but it not an expectation that we should just throw up our hands and say "well, can't help it, i was born that way lol!". You have to fight yourself to overcome it as much as you can.

There is a dissonance between theory and practice it seems. Yeah, in practice you don't need to actually be perfect. God does demand people to be in a sinless state though. You would have to be perfect to achieve this state if it wasn't for God's sacrifice. I could argument that it doesn't make sense for God to demand this state of people in the first place, but that's okay, I concede this point to you.

I want to ask you more things:

1) Why God didn't create people without the desire to sin?

2) Why isn't God at least partially responsible for people's sins since he a) created us and b) created every temptation that cause us to sin? I don't believe in free will myself, but even free will believers have to admit free will is actually very limited and dependent on many things.

>>613549

>You would have to be perfect to achieve this state if it wasn't for God's sacrifice.

Being sinless is a good start, but it's not enough, because even if we don't sin we have to mortify our attachment to sin. For many great saints and one must suppose the Lord Himself, the attitude of "If the bare minimum wasn't good enough, it wouldn't be the bare minimum" is not a healthy one. It would be like playing a football match whereby your fgrand strategy is not to score goals against your opponent, but just being content with preventing them scoring goals against you. It might not cost you the match, but you're not really winning it either.

>I could argument that it doesn't make sense for God to demand this state of people in the first place

Respectfully, why not?

>1) Why God didn't create people without the desire to sin?

He did.

This seems like some kind of loaded question whereby one response is "well why did Adam and Eve sin?". He created people without sin, and moroever He created people without the desire to sin, i.e. people were created who knew nothing of sin or the consequences of it. They didn't even really know what they were doing or why when they were tempted by Satan, but they knew enough to know that it was being done in disobedience. They didn't set out with a "desire" to sin in the first place.

>2) Why isn't God at least partially responsible for people's sins since he a) created us

For almost exactly the same reason that my father isn't guilty of my poor life choices. Proximity isn't enough to "indict" him of partial guilt along with us. We did that all by ourselves. God would only be guilty if He didn't bother telling Adam and Eve about the Tree, and only after they ate it said "Oh wow you shouldn't have done that. Sorry, I forgot to tell you lol". Instead He gave them a commandment, and what the consequence would be of breaking it, and still they did it.

>and b) created every temptation that cause us to sin?

There's a lot to unpack in this short statement.

First of all temptation itself is not a sin. The fact that one is tempted does not mean you are in sin. Giving in to temptation is a sin. Temptation itself is a means to help us grow in virtue, if we let it, and resist it.

Secondly, our fallen nature distorts our perception of things to the point where we look on the good things created by God with a disproportionate or exaggerated lust for them. For many it's not merely enough to eat, for example, they have to pig out. What you are in part asking is "Why did God make food if people would only want to be gluttonous?"

Then there's Satan, who again was created good but through pride fell foul of God's glory by challenging Him, and was thrown out of Heaven. As vengeance, he sought to undermine God's creation, the summit of which is Man.

>I don't believe in free will myself, but even free will believers have to admit free will is actually very limited and dependent on many things.

It is limited by a lot, I agree, but this isn't to deny its existence. The point of our existence is to choose to unite our will with His.

>>613511

Oh, pagan. How paganly you pagan, and yet miss the entire point of the Gospel.

>Why should I feel bad about my "sins"? It seems to me like this is all God's fault for not creating me perfect.

Of course it is, dear. Never mind the detail about how you were created good, but that you willingly embraced sin in the same way as Adam and Eve, or you would have if they hadn't first. You should at least feel "bad" about your sins, EVEN IF you bear or accept no responsibility for them, simply because you have them in the first place. Sin is the antithesis of God. It is what makes God distant. These things alone should make you hate sin.

>It's not my fault I'm not perfect

But, you don't feel any of that because you are not regenerated, your eyes have not been opened, and nor will they if you retain your defiant resentment of God or lack of interest in Him.>so asking for forgiveness for my mistakes is just like asking for forgiveness for being born, a pointless endeavor.

>I am a worthless sinner, just how God wanted me to be

Not only is that a woefully poor assessment of your situation, but it maligns God's character, abrogates your responsibilities and puts you further from salvation than you were before.

When, instead, you ought to pray:

>"I am a worthless sinner. God help me see that."

>>613527

>Why God couldn't have created people without the desire to sin? Just explain me that.

We didn't start with a "desire" to sin. We NOW have a desire to sin. Sin entered the world. The entire batch is poisoned now. We're corrupted, burned under the skin with a desire to sin. The only solution is to burn the field down and replant, but only AFTER God collects all the salvageable crop.

>Someone perfect does everything flawlessly.

You're confusing perfection with automatons. A+E were perfect, but they also had choice, and through their choice, sin entered the world.

>>613549

>Does God have free will?

Yes. But God is also God. He is not affected by His creation.

Anime is reprobate.