/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Read Isaiah 14 KJV

>>606191

Thanks man

Long answer is that several factor played the role, his pride that in turn led to rejection of authority of God, but since God is omnipotent, it couldn't do anything and since God is love and goodness, it automatically revolted against these ideas too. Also yes, it may also has something to do with us, because we are supreme creation, crown if creation and it was pissed off about it, so it sounds playable as well.

Short answer: Lucifer is a bloody moron.

>>606204

I know a lot of people here disagree with Isaiah 14 being about the devil even though that's the only identity that makes any sense, but it is clear in the Bible that Satan and his angels are insane with pride.

>>606178

>he despised the idea of submitting himself before God's creation.

That's Islam. Satan didn't rebel because he didn't want to submit to humans. He rebelled because he wanted to become God.

Isaiah 14:12-14

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

>>606550

>That's Islam.

they borrowed it from Christianity. Humans ARE supreme creation, and everything was made FOR us. We shall judge (have authority over) angel after resurrection of the dead. So this theologoumena is quite logical and acceptable and some church fathers supported it.

>I've heard somewhere that Lucifer was granted some sort of foresight into the creation of Man and that he despised the idea of submitting himself before God's creation. Is this the official account?

It's franciscan tradition. Venerable Maria of Agreda in her book The Mystical City of God, in which she records the visions she had of Mary’s earthly and heavenly life, Maria writes that the reason for Satan’s fall was that God had given the angels a vision of the Incarnation, giving them the full scope of what it would mean for God to become man. The devil was so repulsed by the fact that God would become man and become the Son of a creature that he rebelled. Others say that more than that, he wanted himself to be this vessel out of which God would take his nature.

>What really was going on with Lucifer and his decision to rebel?

Isaiah and Ezekiel tell us about his pride. Salomon adds his envy to causes. For those are two sins that spiritual being can commit.

>>606204

>we are supreme creation

I do not think so. for example the archangels supreme

>>606178

The Biblical account is hubris, and that’s the official position. He wanted to be greater than God. However, numerous stories have arisen on how it exactly happened. The story of him submitting to man is an old belief, pre-Christian, though it was preserved in the Quran

>It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down. (God) said: “What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?” He said: “I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.” (God) said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures).” (7: 11–13)

Why God don't destroy Luci and his gang.

why do they exist and torment men?

>>606663

No

It is directly said in the bible

Do your homework

>>607073

Because God loves His creation

>>607086

but it says that the weakest angel is stronger than the strongest men.

>>607087

What about eternal torment in hell?

>>607088

There's more to life than strength.

>>607089

state of soul depending on ones perception of God's infinite and eternal love.

>>607088

Nope

And this is bloody useless. Elephants and Rhinos are objectively stronger then us and yet, we are their rulers. Bodyguards are stronger than prince/boss they're guarding, but it doesnt say much about their position.

>Gen. 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

>Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

>2Esdra 8:44 But man, who has been formed by thy hands and is called thy own image because he is made like thee, and for whose sake thou hast formed all things—hast thou also made him like the farmer’s seed?

>Heb. 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

>14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

>Heb. 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

>6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

>…

>16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

>1Cor 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

>Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.