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File: 1bc92c7e6bb5b75⋯.jpg (84.04 KB, 620x350, 62:35, Indian-Christian-1.jpg)

9f0b4f No.602450

The Oriental Orthodox thread mentioning the Malankara church in India got me thinking. Despite the native Malankara church and the Catholics each having a presence in India for centuries – and the Anglicans and other Protestant groups being around for quite a while, too – how has Christianity remained such a small presence in India, despite the massive population?

I stumbled across an article from the Malankarans (https://archive.is/CEruY):

>“To understand India, you have to understand the Casteism, the Caste System,” [said] Metropolitan Mor Coorilos…Even though the Caste System is now considered illegal by the country’s own constitution (and it has been for several decades), the Castes are embedded very deep to the culture, the daily life, the people’s minds and in Hinduism. As Metropolitan Mor Coorilos stated, to oppose the Caste based society is to oppose Hinduism. If you don’t believe in the system, you are not Hindu.

>It is said that Orthodoxy was brought to the land by St. Thomas, disciple of Jesus Christ and a humble fisherman. This view has been tested and challenged by the academics and thinkers, but certain is that the first Christian influences arrived to the country in the very first centuries AD. Because of this origin the Orthodox tradition in India is Syrian and it is part of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. As a minority in a country where majority of the people are Hindu and where attitudes against other religions have increasingly hardened and even come hostile, the Orthodox Church has created itself a place among the people and the system. Metropolitan Mor Coorilos named this place to be a Myth. According to the myth, when St. Thomas arrived to India, he chose to convert only from the upper class. This would mean that all the Orthodox Christians in India are the descendants from the upper class, the Brahmins [~5% of the population]. This creates kind of balance, that has offered a chance to co-exist mainly peacefully next to the Hindu Caste system.

>Unfortunately, this has also had an exclusive effect on the church. It is the main reason why the church has not been active on the Missionary field, because that would mean opening the door for the Dalits and an indigenous people called Adivasi, who are together considered the lowest group of people in India. This is a situation that Metropolitan Mor Coorilos is actively trying to change…Many consider Metropolitan Mor Coorilos to be very unorthodox in his activities. His Eminence is convinced that if the Christian churches would have been more active in their mission to help the downcast and persecuted, India would be greatly more Christian society today.

If this is true, castes have been interfering with Christian activity in India since Day one. Did St. Thomas really make such a colossal error in judgement, only converting from the upper classes of Indian society to ensure that the church would survive?

More below on how this has affected other churches.

9f0b4f No.602451

File: 0dc9bd20f01b586⋯.jpg (404.68 KB, 1000x688, 125:86, img.jpg)

Here's some bits about the state of Catholicism in India.

>There are separate seats, separate communion cups, burial grounds, and churches for members of the lower castes, especially in the Latin Catholic Church. Catholic churches in India are largely controlled by upper caste priests and nuns. Presently in India, more than 70 percent of Latin Catholics are Dalits, but the higher caste Catholics (30% by estimates) control 90 percent of the Catholic administrative [positions]. Out of the 156 Catholic bishops, only six are from lower castes.

>Mass conversions of lower caste Hindus took place in order to escape the discrimination. The main Dalit groups that participated in these conversions were Chuhras of Punjab, Chamars of North India (Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and Madhya Pradesh), Vankars of Gujarat and Pulayas of Kerala. They believed that “Christianity is a true religion; a desire for protection from oppressors and, if possible, material aid; the desire for education for their children; and the knowledge that those who have become Christians had improved”. Christianity was thought to be egalitarian and could provide mobility away from the caste.

>Even after conversion, Dalits were discriminated against due to the “residual leftover” practice of caste discrimination. Sometimes the only change seen was their personal religious identity. In many cases they were still referred to by their Hindu caste names.

>In the Indian state of Goa, mass conversions were carried out by Portuguese Latin Catholic missionaries from the 16th century onwards. The Hindu converts retained their caste practices due to the involuntary nature of the mass conversions. This led to a lack of conscientious belief in Christian practices which perpetuated the existence of the social stratification.The upper caste Gaonkar Christians have demanded that only their community be given positions on the Pastoral Council of Goa's Catholic Church.

>In Tuticorin diocese, the untouchability existed till recent times, [and] lower castes such as Paraiyar and Mukkuvars are not allowed during liturgy services conducted for the elite caste.

>Pope John Paul II criticized the caste discrimination in the Catholic Church in India when addressing bishops of the ecclesiastical provinces of Madras-Mylapore, Madurai and Pondicherry-Cuddalore, the three archbishops of Tamil Nadu. He went on to say: "It is the Church's obligation to work unceasingly to change hearts, helping all people to see every human being as a child of God, a brother or sister of Christ, and therefore a member of our own family"

https://archive.is/QbhaT

https://archive.is/HFJOC


9f0b4f No.602452

File: a4959e55b29ddfd⋯.jpg (114.28 KB, 800x533, 800:533, IMG2012281385HI.jpg)

And now for a bit about Protestantism.

>The impact of Protestantism in India began to be felt only from the beginning of the 18th century. One of the notable and new features of these missions was the pride of place given to the Bible. Protestant missionaries had the Bible translated into several regional languages of India and other East-Asian countries, and this helped to popularize it. The Serampur mission gave great importance to education and journalism.

>Most of the early missionaries, i.e., Baptists, Anglicans, Scottish Presbyterians, Lutherans, American Presbyterians and American Methodists, failed to identify themselves with the local people and their culture. Many of them were individualists, and thought of Christianity largely in terms of a personal experience of Christ. For some others, the Christian faith primarily was a set of beliefs that could be shown to be superior to the beliefs of other religions. Many missionaries in the beginning were not interested in the poor or lower castes. They considered themselves to be superior to the natives. The majority of Protestant Christians in India today are the product of Christian mass movements, especially in Punjab, Uttar Pradesh, Bihar and parts of West Bengal.

>In the 19th century more and more Protestant denominations from Europe and also from America began to arrive in India. The denominational differences posed great problems in a mission situation. By sheer force of necessity the various denominations formed the habit of consulting together on common problems.

https://archive.is/cuBOl


9f0b4f No.602455

Now, there are 28 million Christians in India and that number is certainly on the rise. But I think this all sheds a lot of light into why India as a whole never converted.


a2a5d0 No.602456

>>602450

Why did the missionaries fail to covert them in using the toilet?


08b3b4 No.602459

File: a8f01b407e5bf74⋯.jpg (57.21 KB, 650x351, 50:27, nagaland.jpg)


9f0b4f No.602466

>>602459

That seems to be the way you do it. Bring the message to the society at all levels rather than focusing on the upper castes to prevent conflict.

>However, the conversions have been marked by high rates of re-denomination ever since. After having converted to Christianity, people do not feel bound to any one sect and tend to switch affiliation between denominations. According to a 2007 report, breakaway churches are constantly being established alongside older sects.

It's wonderful that this province is an overwhelmingly Christian one, but it seems like the church communities aren't very stable at the moment. I hope things quiet down a bit so that they can focus on outreach.


1fc965 No.602471

Saint Thomas the Apostle, pray for the conversion of india


cdeef7 No.602483

>>602450

Right now India is becoming increasingly less secular and more Hindu-Nationalist under Modi and the BJP. While this most often results in friction between Indian Hindus and Muslims I've also heard that they're beginning to look at Christians/Jains/Buddhists more warily too. India may not have the religious diversity it has today in 20 years and it might become entirely Hindu again.


bf3b30 No.602546

>>602451

>due to the involuntary nature of the mass conversions

does this mean they were forced to convert..?


9f0b4f No.602594

>>602483

Yeah, I've heard news along those lines. I even saw that Hindu nationalists have gone so far as to take the Taj Mahal off the national list of places to visit because it was built by the Mughals. How absurd!

God have mercy on the scattered Indian Christians in provinces where they're persecuted.

>>602546

By the Portuguese missionaries, yes. I suppose a comparable example would be some of the less savory activities in New Spain.


bf3b30 No.602597

>>602594

>By the Portuguese missionaries, yes.

As in they were threatened with death? I am not aware of this or anything to do with 'New Spain' which I have never heard of, I would like to know more about this, it sounds like a shameful strand of Christendom's past and, although clearly less prevelant, would feel hypocritical touting Muslim's regarding the growth of Islam only establishing due to the threat of the sword if Christian's in the past had tried to achieve conversion this way


9f0b4f No.602604

>>602597

India was new to me as well, but I'm shocked you haven't heard about New Spain. It's one of the main criticisms of Spanish colonialism in the New World.

I'm far from an expert on this period, but the Conquistadors forcing the Aztec, Inca, and Maya to convert at the tip of a sword and the brutality shown to the Pueblo Indians in the American southwest are infamous. Just look up the Pueblo revolt to get a sense of how the faith was twisted to serve their ends.


bf3b30 No.602609

>>602604

Damn that's terrible, thanks for the info. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to a lot of history, and intend to go through Bruce Gore's and Ryan Reeves' church history series they each have on yt to address this soon. I'll look it up and look out for info on this stuff too.


ab0c44 No.602615


0ead9c No.602699

>>602459

Who needs a toilet when you have a designated shitting street?


7ae4dc No.602718

The Nestorian Church was the traditional church of Asia. Internal divisions, Muslims, Catholic and Protestant missions, and West Syrians have all chewed away at its former body of followers.


7ae4dc No.602732

These arrangements might be the way such Christian communities have survived in countries where they are minority without their own military and state support.

A sort of similar situation in Egypt exists where Copts are not allowed to proselytize. Despite this such groups might enjoy a priveledged status contrary to what would be expected being a minority group. It seems to be a trend around the world to have religious minorities that tend to be wealthier than the majority, whether it's intentional or a natural result of historical and social developments is uncertain.

The Nag Hammadi library was discovered by Muhammed 'Ali, a peasant farmer of the al-Samman clan who worked for a Copt landowner which was a common circumstance back in those days. The Alawite minority also is perceived to enjoy an elevated status in countries of the Levant.


7ae4dc No.602746

>>602732

Another similar development may have been observed with the Mongols when they coopted the support of Nestorians through things like marriages perhaps at the expense of the larger and previously dominant communities of Islam and native Chinese religions. Perhaps this is why it was responded to with bitter persecution of Nestorians after Mongol hegemony collapsed. Even Mongol Muslim convert descendents like the Timurids and Mughals would be a ruling minority exerting their dominion over Indian subjects.

So the answer might be in it being due to the worldly need or desire of empires and rulers to have an underclass to rule over and do all the manual drudgery.


162001 No.602777

Because hindus have been very violent. Add that to centuries of the caste system enslaving their minds and you got yourself a hard country to spread the gospel to.




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