[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / agatha / animu / ausneets / ideas / leftpol / rozelli / zenpol ]

/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Email
Comment *
File
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options
Password (For file and post deletion.)

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


Christchan is back up after maintenance! The flood errors should now be resolved. Thank you to everyone who submitted a bug report!

File: 550707b39020826⋯.jpg (46.96 KB, 334x450, 167:225, judasiscariot.jpg)

4d981d No.601548

Should Judas Iscariot be forgiven?

a2cd47 No.601549

>>601548

By us? Yes. Judgement is the Lord's.


e87222 No.601555

File: 6b96b336ea6f162⋯.png (125.83 KB, 800x800, 1:1, ClipboardImage.png)

>>601548

Always felt bad for him, considering JC told him it would've been better if he'd never been born. And he eventually offs himself because he regrets it.

(And… well, I think maybe it doesn't make sense for God to be saying that?)


5c262f No.601556

John 17:12

>While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Like >>601549 said, it isn't our place to judge. If your curious about what the Bible says though, it looks like he was given a free one way trip to the lake of fire.


420e21 No.601560

File: 33c077ea9efe5d3⋯.png (4.07 KB, 447x378, 149:126, IMG_0631.PNG)

>create being and predestine it to serve party to own suicide

>condemn being to endless torture for being an accomplice to murder


d25235 No.601566

If you're a "believer" in inherently good humanity, then he can easily be made out to be a hero figure. But, if you live and rejoice in the law of the Lord, then he receives recompense of what he deserves.


b8318b No.601576

Yes because the phrase"better to not have been" had created the best books ever made


926717 No.601584

>>601555

>And… well, I think maybe it doesn't make sense for God to be saying that?

I suppose that this was a prophecy about his suicide (with which he literally regretted being born)


04ac4b No.601618

It's to late for it. He could ask for forgiveness but instead of it, thinking that his own malice was greater than mercy of God, he despaired and killed himself thus committing unforgivable sin.

>>601560

You are confusing cause with effect m8. Judas didn't kill himself because of prophecies. We have prophecies of kis death because he killed himself.


aac49f No.601746

>>601548

Like the other anon said, I think his major sin was despairing and killing himself, thus thinking that God's love wasn't strong enough for him. The Sin against the Holy Spirit is sometimes defined as suicide.


86744e No.601829

He most likely would have been if he didnt kys himself.


b8318b No.601832

>>601829

bad pun, seems like you dont get it


e1407e No.611569

>>601746

>The Sin against the Holy Spirit is sometimes defined as suicide.

This is a very hard pill to swallow for some, but a good explanation nonetheless.


61c872 No.611628

No one should be forgiven. God doesn't forgive anyone because He should. By all rights He should never forgive anyone. He forgives because He wants to, because He's like that. No, Judas shouldn't be forgiven. The question is, is he?


c33d46 No.611633

>>601548

Why would he need to be forgiven if everything he did was already predetermined by God in the first place?


da58b9 No.611634

>>601549

Fpbp tbh


61c872 No.611635

>>611569

>>601746

Intentionally killing yourself out of dispair is generally a mortal sin, but there are sometimes mitigating circumstances in suicide (e.g. mental illness or altered consciousness to the point of insanity or psychosis causing a person to not recognize that they are even committing suicide or not realize the moral gravity of the act; accident; some cases of martyrdom like being forced to choose between suicide or apostasy; self-sacrifice to save another; suicide attacks or last stands in warfare). Suicide can thus be forgivable under some circumstances, but usually it's a mortal sin committed without any chance of repentance, confession, contrition, or reconciliation. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that the soul proceeds immediately to particular judgement upon death, which could very well mean that there is no chance of repentance before judgement, so suicide is a ticket to Hell, but I think there's some nuance to that doctrine that I'm missing.

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is different and refers to knowing the truth without any shadow of doubt that Jesus is the Son of God yet rejecting Him anyway. Did Judas commit that sin?


9be367 No.611636

>>611628

>God does it cause he likes to

>The question is, is he?

Yes, God likes all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4

Yes, and with God all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26

So the conclusion follows quite reasonably.


61c872 No.611639

>>611636

Universalism is heresy. God also wants justice.


5e2bd2 No.611649

>>611636

And God saves ONLY those who anserw to his calling

Revelation 20:13


d8a8cc No.611673

>>611635

I will add that if you kill yourself out of despair the culpability can (I don't know for sure) be undermined by the fact your weren't really fee in your choice because of the passions (cathecism 1860) .

And maybe you didn't knew it was bad.

In the end, even if we can say something is a grave sin, we can't pronounce our-self On the judgement.


7837e1 No.611675

God made Judas do it. Romans 9.


04ac4b No.611698

>>611675

For I desire not the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord God, return ye and live.

10 For wisdom came forth from God: for praise shall be with the wisdom of God, and shall abound in a faithful mouth, and the sovereign Lord will give praise unto it.

11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not thou the things that he hateth.

12 Say not: He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of wicked men.

13 The Lord hateth all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it.

14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel.


a17500 No.611724

>>601548

Yes, especially by us. My personal belief is that He is in heaven, and I venerate Him as a Saint in the Litany of the Saints.


5fed17 No.611728

>>601560

Look at this man and laugh.


61c872 No.612359

>>611673

Agreed. You can't pass judgement on a particular case, but overall it's a sin that should be avoided.


c8b979 No.612384

>>611698

>In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Ephesians 1:11

Don't make scripture contradict scripture. Of course God desires all to come to him but that could be separate from his decree. God did not desire the fall of man and in fact could have stopped it. But it was not a part of his sovereign decree.


252359 No.612388

If he asks forgiveness, who are we to deny it to him? Do we not mean what we say when we pray the Lord's prayer? Have we not heard the parable of the master who forgives his slave an impossible debt? Do we not see that we need forgiveness at least as much as he does?


e40519 No.612451

>>611639

>God also wants justice

His mercy is his justice. You don't even understand basic theology.

>>611649

>And God saves ONLY those who anserw to his calling

Eventually when the time comes all will submit to God, all will bend the knee to him, no exceptions, and he will be all in all. There will be no space for evil, for sin, or for mistakes, all will be purified, and he will be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:28

Philippians 2:10

Let's recap. If you aren't following.

Yes, God desires all men to be saved.

1 Timothy 2:4

Yes, and with God all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26

Yes, all men will submit themselves to God and God will be within them all.

1 Corinthians 15:28

So the conclusion follows quite reasonably. I know this makes your fragile ego angry. But that is how the great Physician operates, he doesn't like sick people floating around his creation, eventually all will be healed.


632140 No.612453

>>612451

Heretic. Disregarded.


929b31 No.612456

Maybe if he went straight to the apostles after throwing the silver, begged for forgiveness, and didn't commit suicide


ad1bfd No.612510

File: f51cc12412aa17c⋯.jpg (46.57 KB, 500x580, 25:29, 1513835043.jpg)

>>601548

Not up to us. We cannot know his heart like the Lord can.

I assume you mean forgiven in the eternal sense

But, let me say this: If the Lord forgives him, that settles it … and after about the first ten thousand years, Judas'll never hear us ribbing him about what he did in life … ;^)


ad1bfd No.612514

>>611635

>but there are sometimes mitigating circumstances in suicide

No offense – though I appreciate plenty people and mods will take it this way – but "so much micro-fine legalism". I'm all for a good guide on matters of morality, but … sometimes I read things on this board that SO remind me of the Pharisees and their gnat-straining

>>612451

>eventually all will be healed.

UGH, this guy again …

>allow me to cherry-pick verses to arrive at my pre-determined conclusion of universalism

>"that God may be all in all" means God the Spirit will be IN everybody just like He is now for Christians. See guise, universal salvation.

#whatIsProperExegesis


926717 No.612552

>>611639

Its not just to pay workers that came on eleventh hour same as to them who worked full time.

Justice of God is His mercy, not degenerate human imagination of "Justice". And Old testament word for Divine Justice is "Tzedakah" that also means mercy, charity and generosity.


61c872 No.612745

>>612514

>trying to figure out how God's mercy could conceivably extend even to those who die committing sin

>HURR you're a Pharisee

>>612552

Damnation is eternal. You're inflicting your degenerate human misunderstandings on God. Please give up your false doctrine.


2e31b9 No.612748

>>601549

>By us? Yes.

False. He hated the Lord.


252359 No.612750

>>612745

God's mercy endures forever. As for whether someone can be reconciled to God, even if they die sinning, it is possible. As for how it's possible, that is a mystery. It's not our job to know how, but to pray for them. People who kill themselves need our prayers more than anyone.


ad1bfd No.613116

File: 40ee9df6ee747b3⋯.jpg (15.39 KB, 320x180, 16:9, pharisee.jpg)

>>612745

>trying to figure out how God's mercy could conceivably extend even to those who die committing sin

Except that's NOT what is happening.

What experiment can you perform to test God's judgement?!

What mathematical equations will determine how God decides?!

What's happening is someone is deciding on God's behalf as to what the final judgement of suicides is.

Fact is, we cannot know. God judges. We just stay well away from sin and keep praying for mercy.

Suicide is a sin, without question.

Whether it damns without question, or whether God's mercy absolutely extends sufficiently are questions we simply cannot answer, nor ought we try lest we end in Pharisee legalism.

If you refuse to see that delicate balance, then I worry for you, anon


929b31 No.613118

I believe suicide is the "unforgivable sin". He's fucked.


61c872 No.613158

>>613116

>>612750

Have you read the Catechism or the Church Fathers on the topic?


61c872 No.613175

>>613116

And I just want to add that singling me out to repeatedly call me a Pharisee for merely discussing possible mitigating factors in suicide, when that's part of the topic that everyone in the thread is already discussing, when I'm only summarizing what's already been stated in the Catechism and the Church Fathers, who discussed the topic extensively, a subject that isn't off limits, has never been off limits, has been openly considered and discussed for two thousand years, by setting yourself up as a spiritual authority to declare this topic verboten and silencing me by personal accusations, is not acceptable, and I don't accept it. Thanks, though. I worry for you.


e3443c No.613192

>>613158

Augustine was definitely against suicide.

St. Ambrose seems to have been OK with it under certain situations.


ad1bfd No.613591

File: 2a2eb64d672a601⋯.png (5.99 KB, 253x199, 253:199, spurdo-concern.png)

>>613175

>singling me out to repeatedly call me a Pharisee

Also not what's happening. I was cautious to state that when I read replies like this. I did not name-call. I did not "single you out" as a Pharisee, though I did draw the comparison between your reply and what Christ criticised Pharisees for doing, yes. If you are so married to your reply, then I would understand why you feel I called YOU personally a Pharisee.

I DID, however, indicate that your post was indicative of what I found to be a worrying … predisposition that bordered on gnat-straining, and the only reason I chose yours over aaaaall the others discussing the same is because NO ONE else chose to enumerate all the situations that might constitute exemption from judgement.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that we're wrong to discuss this.

Nor am I saying that all the church leaders and thinkers who considered this deeply are right or wrong to have done so.

What I *AM* saying is that I'll warrant that all through the early ages, discussion always revolved around what might be so, what could be so, that philosophically this could be the case, or, no, really that … that at NO TIME did people assert anything about the judgement of God that was not already stated in scripture. No, I have not read the catechism on the topic, but I think I can guess what you read it to be saying, and if it IS so emphatic as to assert how God will judge, it ought not.

I have no issue with the topic. I have no issue with the discussion of how God might judge, if we are rooting this in scripture. I do worry about emphatic lists of what is and is not exceptions to judgement when God's judgement is God's Judgement, He keeps His own counsel, and lists verge on dangerous presumption.

Once more, I emphasise, good guides on moral behaviour are fine, but we must not fall into the trap of legalistic pronunciations on behalf of someone who is more than capable of making up His own mind on what He will be doing come that final date.


9360b5 No.613684

File: 21273d5ed0c4a0c⋯.jpg (1.9 MB, 1080x2044, 270:511, Screenshot_20180305-180446.jpg)

>>613591

I didn't enumerate all of the possible situations where there might be mitigating circumstances in suicide. I listed a few of them that I remembered from the Fathers and the Catechism. The Catechism lists most of the same ones that I did. You can take it up with the Church. I'm done.


cec6d3 No.613717

>>601548

If he repents.


cec6d3 No.613718

>>601555

>(And… well, I think maybe it doesn't make sense for God to be saying that?)

Jesus saw that he was damned and tried to warn him.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / agatha / animu / ausneets / ideas / leftpol / rozelli / zenpol ]