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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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File: 5f87a6237577fe2⋯.jpg (66.29 KB, 610x406, 305:203, Pope with Oriental Orthodo….jpg)

9887eb No.599202

A lot of the criticisms towards Orthodoxy are directed at Eastern Orthodoxy and specifically the Russian church, but do most of these criticisms apply to the various Oriental Orthodox churches? They don't seem particularly schismastic,

Copts seem to do more than anyone to unite Catholics and Orthodox. I'm not sure you can say they work with the state since they live in Muslim majority countries. Apart from the monophysite controversy (which apparently is semantic and they agreed with the EO church all along) what bad can be said about them? They keep the faith and produce lots of martyrs, meanwhile Europe can't keep the faith in a continent full of Christians. They don't seem too butthurt about denominational distinctions either.

ac6fea No.599223

I think they're orthodox and probably the best of us, they produce a LOT of martyrs. Christianity + comfort => apostasy, apparently.


f527f3 No.599269

Miaphysites are brothers


9912da No.599279

>>599223

Posted this doc on the Mar Thoma Church today.

It's a church with West Syrian liturgical customs and Anglican or Episcopal communion.

https://youtu.be/6kBkba7Tr8g

>>599202

Having watched Agora they're kind of painted like troublesome separatists out for personal gain. While the view the film promotes on the topic may be controversial I thought the scenery was more believable. The black hooded smocks on those rioters made them look cool though.

https://youtu.be/f5lTRa_ZJn8


05a606 No.599316

>>599269

What did he mean by this?


eec68e No.599332

>>599316

Fellow Christians I take it. One could also read it as brothers among themselves or even both.


9608f7 No.599341

>>599223

Every religion has people dying for their religion.


4d3686 No.599653

if they get persecuted a lot why doesn't God give them a lot of growth?


f5d95b No.600177

>>599653

Ask Job


9887eb No.600193

>>599653

catholics are persecuted a lot…is the catholic church growing?


4d3686 No.600241

File: c9b1a166ab8ac27⋯.jpg (200.79 KB, 830x842, 415:421, Christtheking.jpg)

>>600193

You are looking at it the wrong way. It is like the interior life, if you look for a moment you might be in a desolation but it's not reflective that God isn't transforming you into His Son more and more, you have to look at your whole interior life. And so let us look. from 33 A.D. to 2018, I don't even need to say anything because it speaks for itself. There is no comparison between the Catholic church and any other church. The apostolic churches have planted, and God has given the growth.

Can you name an Apostolic church other than the Catholic church that has converted a country after their schism with the Catholic church? If you look at what happened to the other apostolic churches that schismed from Rome, they just keep dwindling away in importance.

>>600177

St Job, Ora pro nobis!

>42:10 The Lord also was turned at the penance of Job, when he prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

>Early church:

>tons of martyrs, ends up converting the whole Mediterranean and then later on the whole world

Coptic church:

> Tons of martyrs

>cute icons

Being separated from the authority God instituted is no joke .


9887eb No.600418

>>600241

sounds like quantity over quality, fair enough but that doesn't sway me strongly

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


72a291 No.600437

>>600241

>The apostolic churches have planted, and God has given the growth.

Oh shut up about the growth meme.

You guys got screwed in the East as much as the other apostolics.

The muslim conquests happened before the Great Schism by hundreds of years, and the 3 apostolic sees(Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem) fell all the same.

And your attempts at fixing this whole thing post 1000AD where an unmitigated disaster that did far more to drive the Eastern Churches away from Rome, than mend the Schism.


75c605 No.600439

>>600241

Anglican


d8b790 No.600450

>>599341

yes but some religions have them doing so as suicide bombers taking others of other faiths with them


9887eb No.600540

File: d6ef18050bbf30e⋯.gif (136.2 KB, 333x502, 333:502, Zeitun.gif)

>>600241

look into Marian apparitions in Egypt


7af801 No.600670

"Oriental" Orthodox? The men in that picture look like Arabs/Middle Easterners.


97cea1 No.600697

>>600670

Oriental Orthodox is a catch-all name that primarily includes the Ethiopian Church, the Coptic Church of Egypt, the Eritrean Church, the Armenian Church, and the Malankara Church in India – all of which share some common doctrine that sets them apart from Eastern Orthodoxy in Greece, Russia, etc. The most Oriental the Oriental Orthodox really get as a group is the Indian Church. If you look at real places we'd call Oriental like East Asia, you'd be disappointed. Orthodox Churches in Japan are generally run-of-the-mill Orthodox in the Russian tradition; the few Oriental Orthodox parishes in Southeast Asia are branches of the Coptics and Armenians, not home grown. On the unlikely chance that any made it though the Cultural Revolution in China, they would all have been underground for the past 70 years.

The term is more of a historical relic from the time of the Roman Empire, when everything on the east of Greece, including North Africa, was considered to be part of the Orient. The meaning of the word shifted over time as travel to the Far East became more common.


ed29d3 No.600745

>>600437

Let's look at the history:

Assyrian and oriental patriarchates (Antioch, Jerusalem, alexandria) break away from Rome after Chalcedon. 200 years later they are conquered and persecuted by Muslims. Eastern church breaks away from Rome 1050s, 30 years later gets almost completely toppled by Seljuk sultanate. Asks Rome for help and rapprochement. Crusades btfo slimes and reconquers holy land and Anatolia for the East (who promised to help but didn't and just got greedy and claimed all the land of the crusaders). Eastern church continues to sperg in schism despite being saved by Rome. Latin massacre happens. God obviously not pleased and allows 4th crusade to sack Constantinople rather than conquering Egypt. Ottomans conquer and East begs Rome for help and reunites at Florence. Ottomans take Constantinople and new patriarch denies Florence and the East is conquered by slimes. Russian patriarchate gets conquered by mongol slimes. Russians eventually prevail but get conquered by jewish communists and destroyed. Only Roman patriarchate survives as Jesus promised in Matthew 16:18.


9887eb No.600751

>>600745

anyone got a refutation to this?


05f919 No.600838

>>600751

You may as well ask for a refutation of something equally ridiculous like 'Third Rome.' We don't need to bother. It's historical revisionism to the utmost degree.

Here, let me try:

Let's look at the history – Latin patriarchate grows arrogant and power-hungry in their time isolated in the West during the early 1st millennium. Rather than found new churches with the goal of autocephaly, they demand all submit to the will of their Patriarch by twisting Scripture. Later come in contact with the other 4 patriarchates and demand submission. When other Patriarchates refuse, they get BTFO, throw a hissyfit and are kicked out of the Church. As the Orthodox Church continues to deal with the growing threat of Islam, the Latins were given another chance when they offered to help. Instead of defending Byzantium they decide to sack Constantinople and destroy the last great bastion of the East. The Pope defends this as righteous.

While the Orthodox Church suffers under the yoke of the Muslims like the Israelites of old in Egypt, the Latins continue to sperg in the West, forcing all of their clergy to remain celibate, capitulating to a secular leader (Charlemagne) and changing the sacred Nicene Creed, subordinating God to philosophy in Scholasticism, and causing the formation of the Protestant schism as a direct result of their corruption and tyranny. When Orthodox monks come in contact at a Latin-proposed conference they're horrified, but the Latins force them to sing the altered Creed or face imprisonment/death. When they're allowed to leave the conference is condemned, but the Latins claim that this event was an acknowledgement of 'Latin superiority' for centuries. As corruptions sink deeper into the Latin church, they alter their liturgy (even going so far as to allow for Neo-Montanist heresies like Pentecostal 'speaking in tongues' to be integrated into it) and allow death to be worshipped in Latin America. Meanwhile, the Orthodox Church shakes off the yoke of Islam, reasserting itself in Eastern Europe and Asia, overcoming the scourge of Communism, and spreading around the world, proving once and for all that there is only One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Do I mean any of this with complete seriousness? No. But that guy does, which is really quite sad.


72a291 No.600859

File: d6b853d3a332356⋯.png (393.23 KB, 1200x1652, 300:413, 1200px-Map_Crusader_states….png)

>>600745

>Assyrian and oriental patriarchates (Antioch, Jerusalem, alexandria) break away from Rome after Chalcedon.

Only Alexandria had a non-chalcedonian majority.

Jerusalem was cool with both Romes, and Antioch saw the whole schism as silly, and welcomed the latin eastern patriarch as their own with no problem.

The clusterfuck of the crusades would ultimately estrange them, but no too much, given they would be welcoming of latin clergy until the Melkite Schism.

So, exhibit 1 of people that were ambivalent or pro-Rome getting driven away by catholic actions.

>200 years later they are conquered and persecuted by Muslims.

Along with large parts of North Africa, Hispania, Sicily, which were under direct Roman jurisdiction, which paved the way for the Barbary Slave Trade, and the sacking of the Tomb of Saint Peter by saracens.

>Crusades btfo slimes and reconquers holy land and Anatolia for the East

Wait, what?

You conquered a sliver of the Holy Land, and Anatolia got damaged super hard in the process.

An excommunicated french lord managed to recover way more of the holy land than the papal sanctioned crusades ever did, and with way less bloodshed.

>allows 4th crusade to sack Constantinople rather than conquering Egypt.

So, God showed His justice via a totally unsanctioned mob 22 years later, acting in excommunication by the Petrine See(which means a ton of soldiers just lost their souls fulfilling God's will, in your opinion), that destabilized the gateway into Europe, which would result in catholic Hungary getting conquered, and central Europe nearly falling to turks, and leaving the greeks way more anti-latin than before.

So, exhibit 2a of people that were ambivalent or pro-Rome getting driven away by catholic actions.

>Ottomans conquer and East begs Rome for help and reunites at Florence. Ottomans take Constantinople and new patriarch denies Florence and the East is conquered by slimes.

So, the city fell, despite the Union of Florence being in effect, with 2 pro-union patriarchs in a row in charge(Gregory III+Athanasius II), and Hagia Sophia doing a liturgy with the Pope in the dypchis, while the anti-uniates left in disgust?

And all of this before these folks would have managed to ratify the Council in a synod back home, which would leave any anti-unionist factions with no legal or canonical leg to stand on?

A defeat which would leave anti-unionists in charge of the Church, with ottoman backing, instead of pro-latins that could have easily spun a successful defense of Constantinopole into a HUGE argument towards the legitimacy of the Union, and a sign of God's providence?

Seems like a way bigger argument against your point, than for it.

So, exhibit 2b of people that were ambivalent or pro-Rome getting driven away by catholic actions.

>Russian patriarchate gets conquered by mongol slimes.

You are mixing your dates.

There was no russian patriarchate at the time.

The mongol conquests happened centuries before(and ruined hungary and parts of Poland), during which both historical evidence, and the roman saint calendar, says the russians considered themselves in communion with both branches of Christendom.

In the meantime, the russians would get driven away from liking Rome by the Northern Crusades and Teutonic madness.

So, exhibit 3 of people that were ambivalent or pro-Rome getting driven away by catholic actions.

>get conquered by jewish communists and destroyed.

Communism hurt and isolated the Eastern Church, but absolutely ruined the Uniate one, leaving them from a significant minority to a footnote.

So, exhibit 4… you know the drill.

>but eventually, most of our fuck-ups would go away!

Benefit of hindsight.

Muslims could invoke the same arguments you do, and continue to do so to this day.

I could delve in a ton of other cases(Chinese rites, etc.) where catholics could have done things differently, or atleast not turn people against them for no good reason.

Providence invokers, be they orthodox(see >>600838 ), catholic, protestant, atheist, or islamist, are just pagan-tier shamans twisting historical narrative to fit their worldview, and got debunked almost 2k years ago by St. Augustine in City of God.


f1cfc0 No.600861

>>600859

>Do I mean any of this with complete seriousness? No.


72a291 No.600878

>>600861

I realise that.

But it's an example of what an ortho equivalent might sound like.

Is it retarded and unhistorical?

Yes, but so is catholic dindunuffism.


c6a74c No.600882

>>600859

>And all of this before these folks would have managed to ratify the Council in a synod back home, which would leave any anti-unionist factions with no legal or canonical leg to stand on?

Correction - Constantinople (and Constantinople alone) ratified the union, 5 months before the city fell and the last official Roman-Constantinopolitan liturgy would take place.


72a291 No.600921

>>600882

And that synod was?


c6a74c No.600941

>>600882

Not sure if the proclamation was synodical in form, but it was formally ratified in 1452 at Hagia Sophia.


4d3686 No.601983

>>600437

>God doesn't give the growth

>It's just luck

>The Catholics got lucky!

>Catholics are so lucky, the heretics that have broken from them are 3 times bigger than all the other churches.

>What a coincidence, God works in mysterious ways.

>Well let's comfort ourselves by looking at men from that church who did bad things and come to the conclusion they obviously can't be the True Church.

>>600540

Look into Marian apparitions from the Catholic church. Specially Fatima. My post wasn't about how EO or OO can't have miracles, it was why does the Catholic church get so many miracles, so many saints and evangelized so much more than those churches. I'll repeat my question, Can you name an Apostolic church other than the Catholic church that has converted a country after their schism with the Catholic church?

>>600439

should've expected this lol.


189a3e No.602415

>>600859

My point is not that God is performing evil works to destroy his church but that he flees from their sin of pride and schism just like he fled from the excommunicated 4th crusaders and for their rebellion against God allowed them to destroy each other. God does provide great temporal punishment by allowing bad things to happen to sinners.

I was not saying that Rome was innocent in fact Rome had many trials such as the reconquista and protestant revolution due to its own sins and has been punished greatly for its sins, however not to the point of complete submission to foreign atheist and Muslim powers who relentlessly persecute them. Rome is still politically independent. God has allowed Rome to survive as he promised in Matthew 16 18 and evangelise the world whilst the other 4 patriarchates have dwindled into insignificance. A good tree bears good fruit and all that.


84d0c2 No.602775

File: 25e91e0ed24ceb2⋯.jpg (1.55 MB, 1894x1269, 1894:1269, El_Saco_de_Roma.jpg)

>>602415

>but that he flees from their sin of pride and schism

Which is why He sends the worst people, and the least inspired actions, to make sure they happen?

Like, say, picking a certain bishop Irish that wanted to culturally exterminate everything non-american roman catholic to deal with uniates, semi-forcing them into reuniting with the eastern sees, which would later result in OCA?

Or a certain cardinal Humbert of Silva Candida, who was a stubborn mule and sucked at diplomacy, being sent to Constantinople to bridge relationships with the greek see, and not waiting for the Patriarch to summon a council, pinned that cursed letter(that wasn't even valid, canonically) to the table, despite the deacon BEGGING him to take it back, that they don't want a schism in their midst, and realizing what long term damage it would make.

Or abusing the thomite christians, thereby leading to the formation of the Coonan Cross Oath?

Your line of reasoning is reaching increasingly dangerous places, cousin.

>excommunicated 4th crusaders and for their rebellion against God allowed them to destroy each other.

Which turned the largest city in Europe into a 10k looted ruin, which led 4 of the patriarchates into a much more anti-roman stance, after seeing those horrors.

Yes, that helped both of us A LOT to mend the Schism.

For crying out loud, man, the fact that we are still bitterly bringing up these 2 events 8 CENTURIES later to accuse each other is precisely my point.

Stop thinking in memes and trying to push a narrative, and look at it objectively.

>had many trials such as the reconquista and protestant revolution

Or the French Revolution, or the loss of North Africa, or losing the lebanese civil war, but that didn't really wind up benefiting you long term, so i see why you might not mention them.

>however not to the point of complete submission to foreign atheist and Muslim powers who relentlessly persecute them.

Except that part where you got sacked by muslims or protestants.

>Rome is still politically independent.

As opposed to that time where they were political puppets of byz emperors.

Or that time where they were kicked out of Rome by the Holy Roman Emperor.

Or that time they fled to France for almost a century.

Or that time they got locked up by the Italian state, and spent 60 years hiding on their hill, until Mussolini made them a legal entity again.

>whilst the other 4 patriarchates have dwindled into insignificance.

No matter how friendly or in communion with Rome they were at the time.

Got it.

Again, i think one should stop trying to reduce God's inscrutable moves to a historical narrative that's full of holes once you start analysing it deeper.

We shall find out how or why historical events happened at Judgement Day.

Until then, i restrain for believing in "Because we are good at X, God is on our side"

I've seen too many JW's, neo-prots, muslims, and atheists sincerely believe they are on the right path, because of it.

I stick to the Vincentian Canon, and what our churches have agreed so far.




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