/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>592129

You're lucky. There is no tridentine mass where I live and I'm stuck with NO.

The only real problem I see with it are the communion. Indeed the priest wasn't the one doing it.

That and the lack of traditional chants/genuflexions

I don't know better though.

Was your communion received in the hand or in the mouth?

why do you attend NO mass?

>I was afraid I was slipping into some sede-esque thought patterns,

what makes you think that?

NO mass is the mass so it's good, but the Latin mass is more reverent and more conducive to worship of God ( the reason why we have the mass) and so it's better. Both are the mass, but like you said it's easier to pray and worship God in the Latin mass.

>>592129

>I would love some insight from some Catholics who have experience with both because there were some things that really turned me off that I had forgotten about and I'm not sure how to approach them with mercy and grace.

I cannot say that I been to both because of distance to nearest TLM parish (60 km) but I could try.

>First, there is no silence either before or after Mass. I find this very, very distracting while praying.

This is rather local, case by case, level really. I've been to many churches and there is always silence before and after mass so that people can pray and go to confession. Even when I was at masses on open air, with few thousnds attendands there was silence. Well, sometimes there is rosary prayed at loud or Little Office sung etc but it is not bad thing, yes?

>Next, there is a small Congolese population in my area so their choir sang loud francophone hymns during the offertory and communion, which was also very distracting.

Still local level. My choir sungs hymns in two languges only - national and latin.

>Also, I wasn't able to receive communion from a priest, but rather an extraordinary minister.

Local level still. I don't know if you have kneeler or queues but if latter just wait a little and choose wisely.

Therefore we can conclude that you had no actual problems with NO but with execution of it. And 2/3 of it was because of believers, not minister. Change church if it bothers you. Or better yet, become a deacon and change stuff.

>>592164

Doesn't matter. Communion in the hand is allowed now, though if you don't like it receiving it in the mouth is always an option.

>>592129

NO presents a few problems, and honestly it is not a very good English version of Liturgical worship. As >>592188 says, a lot of these are just local problems, but there's a few things that I really dislike about Novus Ordo, and I also find it more likely to have liturgical abuses. By far my largest issue with the form of the NO Mass is the fact that the celebrant prays facing the people rather than facing the altar. This makes very little sense to me and is frankly disconcerting, even if it's small. I also dislike a lot of Novus Ordo music. While the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) pays lip service to Gregorian Chant or using organs for music, I have never been to a Novus Ordo service that uses much of either. The more contemporary music is frankly distracting. Additionally, I believe there is an option during Easter to sprinkle the laity with holy water rather than do the penitential rite, which disturbs me greatly. I don't believe there's any such option in the TLM.

However, I think the tendency to lead to abuses is probably the worst part. One of the worst examples of this is EMHC's giving THEMSELVES Communion. This should never ever be done. The only person who is allowed to administer Communion to himself is the priest. Not even the deacon can do this. I have also been to a Novus Ordo service where I'm pretty sure we sang just a random hymn instead of doing a responsorial psalm. At that same parish, I was told that genuflecting after Mass isn't really important and a lot of people don't do it. Also, just a side note, holding hands during the Our Father is stupid and is not condoned anywhere in GIRM. I've also been to a Mass where the deacon was not wearing his vestments, which I'm pretty sure isn't allowed.

While most of my issues are with liturgical abuses that won't be everywhere, I find that NO makes such Liturgical abuses more likely to happen. I also have issues with the general structure itself. Frankly, it is an inferior version of the liturgy, which is disheartening. Novus Ordo should honestly look a lot more like embed related. Yes, I know it's a Prottie service, but the form here is much better than the NO. We should just take this and add back in the Eucharistic Canon and call it good.

>>592179

>why do you attend NO mass?

What I was most concerned about was that I was almost thinking of the church as split between those in my parish attending TLM and those going to NO masses. I really want to avoid that thinking for the sake of unity, so I would like to begin going to both regularly. Certainly this line of thinking is a weakness of mine and I was looking to see if others experience something similar.

>Therefore we can conclude that you had no actual problems with NO but with execution of it

I thought that my OP was clear with this, but I guess not. I don't have any problems with NO theologically, though as I wrote above certain schismatic thoughts have entered into my head at times. I was just hoping on some insight from other who have had similar experiences. Not necessarily looking for NO/TLM apologism

>>592164

I always receive on the tongue

>>592205

Not sure if anything that was done could be considered a liturgical abuse (except maybe hand sanitizer for the ministers before communion?), but yeah certainly a lot of this is taste. I have actually never read the GIRM so I will check it out thanks

>>592179

>the Latin mass is more reverent and more conducive to worship of God

No it's not, stop spreading bullshit. This is entirely your taste. The reason why we have the mass is that Pope Benedict was so incredibly kind to give the radtrads what they have cried for. Furthermore is it not the form of the mass that is most important. Do you know why we have Holy Mass ? To celebrate the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Sacrifice that is the Eucharist - and to literally become one with God. If the Eucharist is valid, the rest is not so much of important - except when abuse is happening, but that is an entirely different chapter.

What OP experienced is a totally warped understanding of the Mass - which is borderline heretic.

And one more thing to finally settle this matter: It is not called "extraordinary form", because it is very special or it is somehow more excellent or some shit. That is an internet meme. It is called that way, because Novus Ordo is literally the prevalent form of the mass, i.e. "ordinary", and Missa Tridentina is to be practiced only by few people that are butthurt about V2 - namely SSPX and the like – because the Pope has a heart even for borderline schismatics.

This "TLM is more excellent" meme has to stop, because it is poisoning the minds of hundreds of thousands Catholic in America - and also in Europe.

>>592278

Sede falseflag?

>>592290

No. Despite my harsh expressions, I would die for the Pope if it was a necessary sacrifice to glorify God. Also why would a sede false flag as someone defending NO ? Doesn't make much sense to be honest with you.

>>592292

>Missa Tridentina is to be practiced only by few people that are butthurt about V2 - namely SSPX and the like

>>592293

That's how it's called ;D I apologize for the generalization tho - but that is often what we encounter, especially on the internet. See the posts above. I'm not blaming people for wanting to have the mass silent, but people having objections with where the priest is facing during the mass. Again, this is matter that the theologians and the clergy have to deal with.

We as laity are required to be faithful, pray, obey at least the 5 Church requirements{

>>"You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor." The faithful are required to attend the celebration of the Eucharist every Lord's Day (Saturday vigil or Sunday Mass) and the holy days of obligation as established in the liturgical calendar, unless excused for a serious reason [i.e. illness or the care of infants]. CCC 1388-9, 2042, 2043, 2177, 2180, 2185; 2187-8; 2192-3.

>>"You shall confess your sins at least once a year." CCC 1457; 2042

>>"You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season." CCC 1389; 2042

>>"You shall observe the prescribed days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church." CCC 2043; 2177

>>"You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church, each according to his own ability." CCC 1351; 1387; 1438; 2043

} and so on. That is why I say worries such as expressed in this thread are often mere virtue signalling (despite the obvious falsities regarding the comparison NO vs TLM as expressed in my first post).

Everything higher is a matter of Magisterium.

God bless

NO can indeed be done right and reverently, but I have only ever seen it done so consistently at the early morning mass of my city's university chaplaincy.

Part of this is because the chaplaincy has a full schola who chant much of the propers of the mass in latin (Kyrie, Gloria, Creed, Paternoster, etc.), no Praise and Worship hymns shit, and a pretty conservative young priest who likes and allows this. But the effect is pretty good because it shows that people are willing to make it work. Plus the attitude of the congregation at this mass is great too, since most of the attendees are students or young families. It's so encouraging.

>>592205

>receiving it in the mouth is always an option.

Technically it's the norm and receiving it in the hand is the option.

>>592278

>This is entirely your taste.

It's fact not opinion.

>>592205

>Doesn't matter.

Yes, it does.

>>592205

>While most of my issues are with liturgical abuses that won't be everywhere, I find that NO makes such Liturgical abuses more likely to happen

Holy communion in the hand IS a liturgical abuse, and is allowed at every NO mass I've ever been to.

>>592129

>no altar rails

>"altar girls"

>"extraordinary ministers"

>communion in the hand

>priest facing congregation

If NO corrected the above errors, I would be ecstatic. Maybe the next pope will do something…

>>592129

I grew up in novus ordo church and it is a borderline different religion compared to TLM. The amount of abuses that happen at any given NO are ridiculous. It inspires no reverence and causes people to not take the Faith seriously because the whole Mass is a joke. Guitars, drums, EMs, clapping, worship music, holding hands etc. No focus on the sacrifice of the Mass. It's like somebody asked a child to come up with a "fun" version of the TLM. The NO may be valid in some cases but it is leading souls astray and is a bastard rite. I went from K-12 to NO Catholic schools, I know maybe one person that still is religious. We never took Mass serious because it wasn't a serious event, it didn't inspire anybody to take their Faith serious. The NO rite is not the only reason but it is one of the biggest pieces as to why the church is in a state of crisis today. It is so disrespectful to God and I have seen so many people led astray I cannot in good conscience attend the NO rite. When I attended a TLM for the first time last year I realized I had missed so much and that the NO is not even worthy of being a shadow to the Mass of All Time. The fact that people within the church actively tried to wipe out the TLM after the NO was conceived should tell you something about its true intentions and the crisis the Catholic church is currently in.

>>595347

>The amount of abuses that happen at any given NO are ridiculous.

Thia very much depends on where you live, there are areas with better NO.

>>595349

Even a "good" NO still has inherit problems.

>>595349

http://archives.sspx.org/SSPX_FAQs/q5_novus_ordo_missae.htm

>>595355

Great argument.

>>595353

>>

>A. Preliminary remarks

>

>A criticism of the New Rite cannot be a criticism of the Mass in itself, for this is the very sacrifice of Our Lord bequeathed to His Church, but it is an examination, whether it is a fit rite for embodying and enacting this august Sacrifice.

>

>A typical New Mass

>A typical New Mass

>

>It is difficult for those who have known nothing other than the Novus Ordo Missae to understand of what they have been deprived, and attending a “Latin Mass” often just seems alien. To see clearly what it is all about, it is necessary to have a clear understanding of the defined truths of our Faith on the Mass (principles 11-18 are some of them). Only in the light of these can the “new rite” of Mass be evaluated.

>

>B. What is the Novus Ordo Missae?

>

>Let us answer this by looking at its four causes, as the philosophers would say:

>

>What are the elements that make up the New Rite? Some are Catholic:

>

>a priest,

>bread and wine,

>genuflections,

>signs of the Cross, etc.,

>but some are Protestant:

>

>a table,

>common-place utensils,

>communion under both kinds and in the hand, etc.

>Now, the Novus Ordo Missae assumes these heterodox elements alongside the Catholic ones to form a liturgy for a modernist religion which >would marry the Church and the world, Catholicism and Protestantism, light and darkness.

Pure hubris. SSPX have been given more ground and they thank it by calling NO a different Rite, heterodox and what not. Worse, they call it modernism. The reform of the Mass came from an ecumenical council and these faggots think they're smarter than the Holy Spirit ? SSPX is trash and until they get over their own arrogance, they will stay trash and anyone that goes to an SSPX mass although he could go to a licit mass is just as stupid. That's the facts. Forgive me those words on a Sunday, but it seems people have forgotten that their personal taste means shit in the eyes of the Lord. We are to serve Him, not yourself. That anyone even has the audacity of posting SSPX material shows how few you care about the Sacrifice of the Eucharist and how much you care about personal feefees.

For every slowpoke ITT, again:

When the magisterium decides shit, you can be sure it's fine and licit. Anyone objecting to V2 and NO Missae in particular puts his or her personal taste above the love for God.

He is not there to serve us, we are here to serve Him. That includes going to a licit mass with licit Sacraments. If you willfully object to anything of this, you are merely doing what the devil wants you to: Loving the world more than God, because objecting with the form of the mass and attributing wild claims of conspiracy to it is nothing else. You love your personal taste so much that you choose illicity over anything else.

There are TLM parishes everywhere that are licit, even NO parishes that occasionally celebrate TLM. Go to them. But don't you dare to ciritcize the form of the mass - which is all of the Latin Rite in case you SSPX brainlets forgot that. You are laymen and we aren't the "orthodox" church, so the laity has no fucking say - because there are well trained professionals dealing with specifics of Canon law, rules and Rites and forms of masses. And if you REALLY think there's abuse going on, why don't you responsibility-dodging faggots report it to the priests, bishops and above in order to make it stop ? No, you choose the satanic path and just abandon ship, full of hubris "because it's all so modernist".

Let that sink for a moment.

What does the SSPX do that bothers you so much? We follow the traditions of the last 2000 years. Why does that upset you? We have not abandoned the church, you are ignorant.

>>595380

>What does the SSPX do that bothers you so much?

They keep being a source of scandal and confusion, in addition to being gravely disobedient and having some really heterodox theology.

>We follow the traditions of the last 2000 years.

Up to the point of sinning (see above)? The fact that you can keep them while being fully obedient and orthodox obviously makes the whole thing even worse.

>>595381

This post illustrates perfectly what I was pointing out above. Thank you for being the bad example I was talking of.

>>595385

You didn't point out anything. You went on an incoherent rant and made no arguments. You seem to have problems, I will pray for you. Keep thinking you will save the church by "fixing" a rite that had protestant hands in its creation.

What are the fruits of the NO? Sharply decreased Mass attendance, widespread abuses of liturgy, and most Catholics don't take their faith even remotely serious anymore. I saw it with my own eyes and the stats are available to prove it.

If it wasn't for the SSPX you wouldn't even know what the TLM is. It would have been lost forever.

Let that sink in.

>>595393

Yet you're unable to stop lieing and make up causation where no such thing is.

>>595393

>What are the fruits of the NO? Sharply decreased Mass attendance, widespread abuses of liturgy, and most Catholics don't take their faith even remotely serious anymore

In fairness, there is probably a lot more to these problems than the rite of the mass.

>>595395

At most, the chicken/egg question on if the rite made people lukewarm or if the people made the lukewarm rite is still up. As for everything else you just said, I'll write it down on the "Jesuit Garbage" folder so I can spot it if I see it on the future.

The anon talking shit about SSPX needs to be excommunicated. Unrelated to the Church, I'd I'd also hang him for being a radical revolutionary.