/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>591527

I guess many of them found life on Earth to be too easy, so they moved the test further.

>>591527

Do orthodox have purgatory?

>>591540

No we don't.

>>591542

Why not?

>>591543

Christ's church and apostles never taught it.

>>591544

What about toll houses?

>>591543

Because we/they? have the teaching that people can be saved form hell instead, which can also be interpreted form the "Praying for the dead" verses the RCC took their purgatory teaching form.

Because apostle Paul teached it and wrote it in the Holy Bible.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

>>591545

Not official Church teaching and not purgatory, the demons who hinder your assent through the Arial realm are not giving you temporal punishment they are trying to drag you to hell.

>>591545

just speculation by individuals, not a church teaching.

>>591548

>1 Corinthians 3:11-15

implying everyone goes to purgatory

>>591527

It’s not something you can pin to a specific moment in time. It evolved over the course of centuries. Initially, it started as a result of Catholic rejection of complete penal substitution and atonement on the cross.

>All people sin

>Even one tiny sin makes you undeserving of Heaven

>Therefore, if God want’s to get us to Heaven, He must cleanse and purify us of our sins before we enter Heaven

That’s a logical conclusion. The Bible teaches that the sacrifice on the cross is what purifies us, but Catholics reject that and say it isn’t enough. However. They still need to believe in a way to purify sinners souls. Church Fathers as early as Origen spoke of us needing to be cleansed by fire or be given temporary punishments in the afterlife. In the fifth century, “purgatory” as a term existed, but it was mainly believed to be a state, as opposed to a place like Heaven or Hell. In the Middle Ages, it began to be known as a separate place like Heaven or Hell. In 1245, the RCC finally gave it a formal definition, and in 1320 purgatory was cemented in our common culture with the release of the Divine Comedy

Sorry for turning this into an orthodox thread but im also wondering if orthodox do confession and call their priests father? Also if they do, does one have to go through their priest to get their sins forgiven? Can they not just pray to jesus?

Sorry again. I wish there was an info graphic or something stickied so everyone could know the basic differences between the denominations.

>>591553

Orthodox fo confession and call their priests Father (πατέρας)

>>591553

Protestant bible reading of the day:

Apostles being given power to remiss sins meant nothing at all, we should pray to Jesus instead of listening to the bible, also I'm quitting the Orthodox church because they're too Catholic

>>591556

orthodox confess to God, the priest is just there to help pray on your behalf and give you some guidance, humans are social creatures. Priests don't forgive anything, you don't confess "to them" you confess "with them" in a way.

>call their priests Father (πατέρας)

prots call their dads father.

point is to not treat your dad or your priest as your 'true father' your 'heavenly father' or your 'master'

If we're on the subject of Orthodox Confession… What sins do you confess? There's no doctrine of mortal and venial sin as I understand it, so do you just confess literally everything? Wouldn't that take several hours per week?

>>591551

Babies will not because they didn't any work.

>>591548

This. If there's ever a clear cut statement in the Bible that both suffering and salvation, that loss and gain, can occur in the afterlife then this is it.

>>591564

My orthodox priest said sex outside of marriage is a mortal sin.

>>591565

the fire is not post-mortem, your reading is silly

>>591568

It is post-mortem. Paul is talking about salvation and salvation is received only after death.

>>591564

Not sure about others but I just confess everything on my mind. Typically those involve falling prey to my passions in different ways, whether its lust, gluttony, pride, etc. I typically try to examine myself using those as a lens. From what I understand though, Orthodox typically do not go for confession as often as Roman Catholics, with the Lenten and Paschal seasons being the most popular.

My parish priest led me to believe that some people choose to ONLY confess at those times, which I imagine must be quite the ordeal. I personally prefer to go every week or two, though I also include repentance in my daily prayers.

>>591577

Thanks!

One more question. Is confession done in private, like in a box or a separate room? From what I've seen, it looks like you just go up to the priest in the front of the church and kneel in front of him. Doesn't everyone else waiting for confession end up hearing your sins?

>>591527

It's fanfic basically, they're always coming up with new lore.

>>591573

"The work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each one’s work." -1 Corinthians 13

Unless "the day" is somehow not the day of the Lord this verse is very clearly talking about our jugement, not earthly purification. Heaven is not something that can be imposed from the outset, it needs to be fostered from within otherwise we aren't anything before God's eyes, 1 Corinthians 13 style. If you have faith and are still a habitual sinner you can still be saved as long as you trust in God's mercy and forgiveness, but the divine fire will make a child of God out of you, yes you, whether you like it or not, because to leave even a drop of sin in us would be cruel.

>>591578

>The priest is absolving you by the authority he has been given

Maybe in Catholicism. Im pretty sure Ortho priests ask God to forgive you, thats how it was explained to me

>>591583

>thats how it was explained to me

Where?

>>591578

>you can't just wing it on your own

>on your own

Uh, 1 John 1:9. Denying God's faithfulness to forgive and mercy is a pretty big transgression and you really should apologize to Him for saying that.

>>591582

*1 Corinthians 3:13

>>591545

A meme

>>591585

>sorry apostle john, I don't need you, I deny the authority Jesus placed in you

this whole apostolic succession just flies over your head

>>591585

This is a bit of a misunderstanding. The Church has never taught that forgiveness is absolutely tied to the concfessional, that would contradict basically the entire New Testament. What it does say is:

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

That verse is why we consider confession a sacrament, and outward sign of God's mysterious and miraculous grace, because God has given US the power to wipe the slate clean. But this power requires ordination, an authority gifted by Christ through the Spirit. Christ said many times to many people that if they forgive others they would themselves be forgiven, but only a select few he gave power to absolve sin.

If you die intending to confess to a priest and repentent God of all people understands, but otherwise it is an invaluable resource to have a flesh and blood minister of God's mercy to confess too, so invaluable he gave that gift to a majority of Christians in the Church.

>>591592

*contradict the entire Old Testament

>>591580

Our church has 2 small vestibules in the nave, and in one of them they keep a font of holy water, and a small confessional table. We stand next to the priest and pray, then confess and are given absolution. The "waiting line" if there is one, is nearby, so yes there's a possibility that others might overhear, but I usually go to confession on a schedule with the priest at times when there aren't many around.

If there are, I'm not really ashamed of them hearing how I've failed. God knows all of my failings and I'm confessing publicly to Him, not to anyone who might be standing by and incidentally hearing what I confess.

>>591584

Not that poster, but the way it was explained to me (Ortho churches in general don't seem to have a dedicated catechism, though I've learned more since I was catechized) is that you are confessing directly to God, in the presence of the priest, and the priest is standing in for Christ, absolving you through the power given down to the apostles and passed through succession.

I still look at is as my confession directly to Christ, in that sense, the priest is just an observer, which I think is maybe where that idea comes from. I do agree with you, and I believe the Church does doctrinally, that the priest is offering you absolution through the power vested in him by God.

>>591592

>That verse is why we consider confession a sacrament,

Well I just want to say in 2 Chronicles 7:14 is the famous verse about God arbitrating our sins and hearing from heaven. Also repeated in countless Psalms and Daniel 9:9 and like I already said 1 John 1:9.

Now you may ask where the verse you mentioned comes in. That has to do with church discipline and granting the authority of the ordained overseer to judge those within the church, whether they should be accepted or not, further shown in 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 and 2 Corinthians 2:6-11. You will notice the parallels – this is for protection of the church and for whose decisions it will follow. Very clearly and plain from the word of God, the sins between me and God remain as such and God is the one I need to ask for forgiveness.

Also, James 5:16 only says to confess your faults one to another, which is not the same thing. There is no similar statement about confessing sins.

>>591611

>Catholic priest

>Anime girl image

As expected.

>>591608

>>591608

>That has to do with church discipline and granting the authority of the ordained overseer to judge those within the church

What? The passage plainly states Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit into the Apostles to grant them the power forgive sins (an authority that belongs to God alone, naturally). That He breathes the Holy Spirit for this purpose only to the Apostles makes it clear that it they are being granted a particular authority through God. And as you point out, we all can forgive each other of our faults, but sin is the domain of God, so it should be obvious which we’re talking about here. Church discipline is indeed addressed in the verses in the epistles to the Corinthians you mentioned, but there is nothing that particularly relates them to John 20 (especially if you deny apostolic succession as Protestants do).

>Very clearly and plain from the word of God, the sins between me and God remain as such and God is the one I need to ask for forgiveness.

You say that as though that contradicts John 20. Is the Holy Spirit not God? Can He not work through men?

>Also, James 5:16 only says to confess your faults one to another, which is not the same thing. There is no similar statement about confessing sins.

If as we see in 1 John 1 that God forgives us our sins if we confess them, and the Holy Spirit can forgiven sins through those who so received Him, then it stands to reason that if we confess our sins to those vested with such authority they will be forgiven.

>>591578

I agree the meme that priests have no authority needs to stop but if you look at the section before that it is clear the priest is asking God to forgive the pennant it is not a work the priest does like a magic spell. I do not know what Catholics believe about it but surely you don't think that absolution is a magic spell the priest does and regardless of the repentance of the pennant the sin is forgiven?

>O Lord God of the

salvation of Thy servants,

merciful, compassionate and

long-suffering; Who repents

concerning our evil deeds, not

desiring the death of a sinner,

but that all should turn from

their evil ways and live.

>Show mercy now on Thy

servant/handmaiden

[name]

and grant to them an image of

repentance, forgiveness of sins

and deliverance, pardoning all

there sins, whether voluntary

or involuntary.

>>591644

2 Corinthians 2:10-11

To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;

Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

>That He breathes the Holy Spirit for this purpose only to the Apostles makes it clear that it they are being granted a particular authority through God.

Yes, the authority to determine who should be disciplined and who should be forgiven by the church. That's why you let the pastor who is the overseer decide who is being disciplined, on part of the whole church. That is not the same as forgiving sins instead of God, that is the authority to act on behalf of the whole church. And this is all with respect to those within that church, whether they should be forgiven or retained. As it is written, "them that are without God judgeth." So this isn't coming between you and God in forgiving sins, it's a church matter.

>Is the Holy Spirit not God? Can He not work through men?

Romans 8:26

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

>and the Holy Spirit can forgiven sins through those who so received Him,

And every believer has. The authority aspect has to do with church discipline, and acting on behalf of God's church, as I just showed. 2 Corinthians 2:6-11, 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. We are saints and priests, with one high priest and one mediator to the Father, namely Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells every saved individual.

>>591979

>If something looks silly without context its dumb

Welp time to throw away my Bible

>>591527

>>591548

No, you just proved that you don't have to do works to be saved. And that's the best you have for this stupid doctrine then that's just sad.

>>591560

Only those 11 did you stupid goyim. It nevers anything about others being able to, also again like he said you also can just believe on Jesus to do it si that's pointless.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

>>591548

That passage says that a person's works pass through the fire, not the person himself. Depending on how you live your life as a born again Christian you'll receive a reward or lose out on it; but be saved.

It comes from the false doctrine that says that Jesus' blood isn't enough to cover your unrighteousness, that we have to be "purified" before we can enter Heaven.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

>19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

>21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

>>591527

I found it on some polish site that have councils documentation and translated to english for this very occasion.

DOCUMENTS AFTER SESSION 10 (for Paul III)

I Doubts about purgatory and indulgences examined by theologians

(Sunday, June 19, 1547)

I / A. About purgatory

1. Is there anything in Scripture about the existence of purgatory? And if it is, then in what places?

With respect to the first [doubt], everyone responded that purgatory exists and is concluded from the Scriptures, the General Synods, the testimonies of scholars and holy fathers, from the tradition of the apostles from the consent of the whole Church and the final and necessary causes.

With reference to the Scripture, they have referred, inter alia, chiefly to Matthew 12:32 "it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come". Mt 5:26 "thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay" etc.

Mt 3:11 "he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire" in interpretation of Jerome and Basil.

Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 3:13 "the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire", and 1 Cor 15:29 "they that are baptized for the dead."

Similarly Revelation 5:3n "And no man was able[worthy], neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, so under the earth are worthy, but not to open the book"; So they are not in hell. Because everyone praised the Lord, and the dead in hell do not praise the Lord, so it is about purgatory.

Similarly, when the Lord says that "from every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account", this is not done in hell, so in purgatory. For the if for the smallest sin we shall render an account, then so much more for mortal, in which someone dying is deemed to hell, he is not able to render an account there.

1 John 5:16 "if who sinneth to death, I say not that any man ask[pray]" etc so for someone who does not die in such a sin we should pray what would not have been possible if he had not been in Purgatory.

David says: "The sorrows of hell encompassed me": These words can not be understood as limbo because there is no suffering or hell, for it is the place of the damned, because David did not have to fear it.

In addition, Ba 3,4 says that "the synagogue prayed for the dead", not for those who were in limbo, who do not need prayer, nor for the righteous because they say there are those who have sinned before, and not for the damned, because there is no redemption in hell; So for those who were in Purgatory.

Micah 7:8-9 "Rejoice not, thou, my enemy, over me, because I am fallen: I shall arise, when I sit in darkness the Lord will bring me forth into the light" etc as Jerome and ordinary gloss interpret.

In addition Malachi 3:1.3 "Behold he[Lord] cometh etc and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold" etc as Augustine interprets in De Civitate Dei chapter 24.

Similarly, Augustine proves purgatory from Ps 37: "Chastise me not in thy wrath"; and earlier: "Rebuke me not, O Lord, in thy indignation": he understand as about hell.

Jerome concludes it from Hosea: "I will deliver them out of the hand of death"; and from last chapter of Isaiah

Similarly 1 Samuel 2:6 "The Lord killeth and maketh alive, he bringeth down to hell and bringeth back again."

Likewise Job 14, 13: "Who mayst protect me in hell"

Is 4,4 ("Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Sion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.")

Syr 7,37 (" A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead.")

Ps 76: 1 "You led us out", etc. And Psalm 45:"The Lord will deliver me from powers [of hell]"

Similarly, Gen 30 metaphorically speaksabout Jacob:"With my staff I passed over this Jordan"

Similarly to Philippians 2, 10 "In the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth": In hell they do not bend their knees.

Moreover Paul said: "through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God"; Therefore, the dead, who have not passed through the tribulations in this age, will bear it in purgatory. Otherwise, the righteous that beared many tribulations in this age, they would be worse off than those who always lived in delights, but converts at the moment of death and regret if both the righteous and those immediately went to heaven.

>>591578

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-can-a-priest-forgive-sin

lmao