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File: f6b4e3b29d5d00f⋯.png (19.92 KB, 442x465, 442:465, fda65e98df61489751db6c1c5e….png)

7d6aba No.588995

Is it alright for a minister to remain unmarried?

(Titus 1:5-6) "For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly."

Does this passage mean that an ordained minister must have one wife, or can only have one if he is married?

c85bab No.589004

It's almost like holding shepherds to some sort of standard, observing that they can rule their own household, would reduce the number of pedophiles abusing a position of power in the church


9e0618 No.589005

>Does this passage mean that an ordained minister must have one wife, or can only have one if he is married?

Both


457efc No.589008

>>588995

>Is it alright for a minister to remain unmarried?

No

>Does this passage mean that an ordained minister must have one wife

Yes


7c5f2c No.589016

It means that establishing a priesthood among the gentiles would mean you could not grab a man off the street in a relationship contrary to the rules of Adultery at the beginning.

The Church of Christ, given authority since the beginning, decided it would be good to enforce celibacy, since it had grown powerful and the local priests became significant figures in the community.

For all the protestant mewling about Romish Popery, the idea behind priestly celibacy is that the Priests would be forced to raise their Church and their Parish, rather than their own children.

This is why any Protestant Church that isn't state-run is essentially a family-run business.

>>589004

Pedophiles can have wives.


7c5f2c No.589020

>>589016

Additionally, when you donate to a family-run Protestant Church, you are donating specifically to that family.

The husband's wage, the household costs, the children's college, and lastly, the Church (business).

At best, you may see canned food drives; otherwise, this is why Protestants rely on state-run or independent charity organizations.


457efc No.589024

>>589016

>establishing a priesthood

They didn't establish a priesthood

>The Church of Christ, given authority since the beginning, decided it would be good to enforce celibacy, since it had grown powerful and the local priests became significant figures in the community.

The Church of Christ doesn't actively rebel against her master's words. If your church does, it isn't Christ's Church.

>For all the protestant mewling about Romish Popery, the idea behind priestly celibacy is that the Priests would be forced to raise their Church and their Parish, rather than their own children.

The idea was the pope wanted their money so he ensured there was no competition for it

>This is why any Protestant Church that isn't state-run is essentially a family-run business.

Do we live on the same earth?


c85bab No.589032

>>589016

>Pedophiles can have wives.

Thus I said reduce and not eliminate. We're assured in Jude and elsewhere that evil men will creep in and try to corrupt churches.

Paul gives us an acid test; if a man can't product good fruit from his own household, don't trust him to shepherd a flock.

1 Timothy 3

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)


7d6aba No.589039

>>589005

>>589004

>>589008

But what about how Paul was unmarried, and said:

(1 Corinthians 7:7-8) "I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I."

Wouldn't that mean there would be no one qualified to be a bishop? What if a man has the gift of celibacy, and desires the office of bishop?


c85bab No.589051

>>589039

Compare with 1 Corinthians 5. In 7:1 Paul says

>Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

Chapter 5 deals with the reputation the Corinthians had built, worse than the gentiles even, of rampant fornication. Chapter 6 regards our liberty as Christians, and chapter 7 has Paul give us an ultimatum; be married or be celibate.

Remember that Paul and Barnabas didn't head a church, and were "examined" or criticized for collecting money despite this. Check chapter 9. They always had the opportunity to be married like the other apostles, Peter, and brothers of Christ were.

>Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?


7d6aba No.589064

>>589051

>They always had the opportunity to be married like the other apostles, Peter, and brothers of Christ were.

And yet the fact that they as ministers did not marry seems to suggest that the freedom to not marry is given to ministers.


4ea7be No.589097

>>588995

Keep in mind that the Church wrote the Bible, and not the other way around, and that the Bible is not an all-inclusive record; it says so itself, that not all that was done was written, and that you should hold fast to the teachings you have received, both written and oral.

Several of the early councils affirmed that celibate men could be priests. There's no requirement that a priest be married, only that, if they have been married, it was only once, i.e. not divorced (several councils allowed for divorce and the Roman Catholic practice originally allowed for divorce under certain circumstances, their teachings have changed of the centuries) and if widowed, not remarried, and that if married with children that their should be evidence of them raising decent children.

The practical problem with celibate priests is weeding out pedos from the candidates.

The practical problem with allowing priests to marry after their ordination is that they'd necessarily be poaching from their own flock if they decided to take a wife, which can lead to various abuses of authority.

The Orthodox handle these problems by allowing married men to become priests (in practice, most are married), but not to be married after becoming a priest, and only unmarried men can become bishops (e.g. celibate men, or widowers, or monks whose wives have gone to join convents and become nuns, etc.) because of the increased responsibility that goes along with a bishopric.

Personally in today's day and age, more so than, say, 100+ years ago, I'd be very very suspicious of any young unmarried man that wanted to be a pastor or priest, unless they were from some kind of monastic background that gave me confidence they weren't just looking for a place where their avoidance of relationships with females wouldn't be suspicious and/or where they had access to lots of young men and boys.


4ea7be No.589098

>>589064

>the freedom to not marry is given to ministers

I touched on this in my other reply, but yes, there should be, and always was, in the ancient Church, one priest to a congregation and one congregation in each area, and if the shepherd of the flock was to pick a wife, that wife would have to be Christian and ergo would have to come from within his own flock.

Which presents a pretty obvious conflict of interests. A person of authority shouldn't be allowed to engage in fraternization with persons they have authority over.

Again, that's why the Orthodox do it the way they do it. A married man may become a priest, but a priest may never marry.


c85bab No.589102

>>589064

Were Paul and Barnabas bishops? Seems they had more of an Evangelic role.

>>589098

If a shepherd truly falls in love with a woman in his flock, what's wrong with courting and marrying her, provided he does so chastely and in an acceptable manner? I see the argument you make about the power dynamic, but if the pastor of a church is preying on his congregation like a CEO might with his secretaries, he has a bigger problem than just abusing his power, right?


a010a5 No.589104

>>589039

Pual either wasn't the leader of a church kr he was in sin


4ea7be No.589108

>>589102

There will always be a difference between

>a man's courtship of a woman, when both are members of a group over which some third party has pastoral authority

>a man's courtship of a woman, when said woman is a member of a group over which said man has pastoral authority

There's no way to get around that. It is always going to be a different situation when the man is in power over the woman.

There's also the issue that, when a man is pastor over a flock, he shouldn't be looking at the flock, which is not his flock, it's HIS flock, an the pastor only has authority over it, he shouldn't be looking at members of the flock as if they may be future sexual partners of his. Yeah, I know you said "chastely" but let's face facts, if he's gonna marry the woman, then he's gonna be having sex with her, and if he's thinking about marrying her, then the sex act is in his mind, regardless of how outwardly chaste his courtship of her is. And that's just improper, for a man whose charge is to look after the flock which belongs to the Master.


bc492f No.589109

File: 62503b43d158cac⋯.jpg (312.4 KB, 910x1090, 91:109, 1428578159365.jpg)

>>589108

You've just stepped and killed Titus 1:5-6 because of your warped opinion on marriage.


c85bab No.589110

>>589108

Wouldn't a man who has no wife have the exact same impure thoughts?


4ea7be No.589113

>>589110

First, because he has a wife, he has an outlet for it.

Second, if he has no wife, and is allowed to court from his flock, then he is given increased license to act upon said thoughts.


4ea7be No.589114

>>589109

LOL you're funny. Feel free to point out exactly what's "warped" about my view. Is it that I believe sex is a part of marriage, and that in a world where couples choose each other out of romantic love, romantic love justifying marriage so to speakas opposed to the marriage being arranged by others such as their parents, that being sexually attracted to the potential marriage partner is part of the process?


c85bab No.589118

>>589113

>First, because he has a wife, he has an outlet for it.

Which I would argue is the way it should be 100% of the time. Married before you enter the ministry.

>license to act upon said thoughts.

Matthew 5:28 would suggest that (for the sake of his own soul) he's not doing much better on account of not being able to pick out a wife.

Don't forget there are accounts of priests abusing even the confessional booth for their own fleshly lusts.


7c5f2c No.589298

>>589032

>Thus I said reduce and not eliminate

And how does having a wife reduce pedophilia? It's like saying have a wife means a man isn't suffering from homosexuality.

>Paul gave us an acid test

That's not an acid test, those are stipulations for inducting gentiles into the priest-hood.


7c5f2c No.589302

>>589024

>They didn't establish a priesthood

They established a priesthood. If they did not establish a priesthood, how exactly was the Church supposed to survive? Random people…just praying? They didn't have sacred scripture compiled until after they were all dead; at best, uncompiled Epistles combo'd with the OT.

>The Church of Christ doesn't actively rebel against her master's words. If your church does, it isn't Christ's Church.

You rebel against Christ; you call him a liar.

>The idea was the pope wanted their money so he ensured there was no competition for it

lol

>Do we live on the same earth?

Do you have eyes?




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