/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship★

It would help if you gave a specific example since most of the time there are specific reasons depending on the case you are talking about.

>>565533 (OP)

If you look at the story of Sodom, Abraham asked God if I find 50 righteous men will you spare Sodom? God said yes. And then Abraham kept haggling him down to 45, 40, 30, 20. Finally Abraham asked God if he could find 10 righteous men would he spare Sodom? God said yes. Abraham couldn't find them. Abraham hadn't kept asking but if he did maybe God would have agreed not to nuke Sodom if Abraham could find even one righteous man.

>>565548

I dont mean sodom, because that is one example where basically everyone was degenerate. I mean other examples.

>>565548

How many people lived in Sodom? A lot?

>>565558

I dont know the OT very well. Maybe something something in egypt?

Everyone is already under a death sentence because we're all sinners. That's why anyone, everyone, dies at all at any point. God can kill whoever He wants whenever He wants however He wants. In a community that tolerates the worst sins possible, everyone is accountable for those sins, because we are out brothers' keepers. "Good" people are expected to keep their communities in line. If they fail and the community becomes toxic then they need to get out and find or build a new community to participate in, because societies that embrace sin and shun goodness will eventually destroy themselves even if God doesn't rain fire and brimstone down on them. Any "innocents" who die in such an act of God you can chalk up as mercy killings.

>>565560

>That's why anyone, everyone, dies at all at any point. God can kill whoever He wants whenever He wants however He wants.

You think when a person dies from a lion attack or cancer its because God made the lion attack them or put the cancer in them? Or if a man slips and falls off a roof, its cause God loosened his footing?

>Everyone is already under a death sentence because we're all sinners.

because its in our nature to die, God doesn't need to "intervene" and punish us with an untimely death. So most of what you said misses the point, specially the "mercy killing" idea, which is also immoral. Collateral damage is inevitable for impotent and ignorant beings, collateral damage doesn't need to happen when we're talking about God.

God gave us life, he can take it back however He wishes.

He is the Creator and we are his creatures.

>>565571

we are his children so a father can't just beat or kill his children simply by virtue of being a father.

>>565566

>You think when a person dies from a lion attack or cancer its because God made the lion attack them or put the cancer in them? Or if a man slips and falls off a roof, its cause God loosened his footing?

It's called the Curse. Genesis. God doesn't need to directly intervene. God prepared our deaths for us before He created the world. Death is part of this world.

>because its in our nature to die, God doesn't need to "intervene" and punish us with an untimely death.

There is no such thing as an untimely death. Our deaths are part of divine providence. The hour of our deaths is exactly what God planned for us and not a second too soon.

>So most of what you said misses the point, specially the "mercy killing" idea, which is also immoral. Collateral damage is inevitable for impotent and ignorant beings, collateral damage doesn't need to happen when we're talking about God.

There is no such thing as collateral damage when it comes to God. You miss the point: there are no innocents.

>>565577

>There is no such thing as an untimely death

Of course there is, for example, a mother aborting her child.

>The hour of our deaths is exactly what God planned for us and not a second too soon.

No, because of free-will and because he doesn't have to micromanage the universe, he isn't an autist. Cain wasn't God's puppet acting out a predetermined murder written into time by God.

>There is no such thing as collateral damage when it comes to God. You miss the point: there are no innocents.

Right, only in the sense that, God doesn't engage in collateral damage, not because it's somehow "justified" or we "deserve it".

>there are no innocents

We don't need to be innocent, we have inherent value to God by virtue of our mirror-image nature. Which is why Jesus came, and died for all, not just the righteous.

Are you a calvinist? Your theology sounds confused.

>Of course there is, for example, a mother aborting her child.

Did that abortion somehow catch God by surprise? You think that God didn't already know that it would happen before He created the universe, that He didn't account for it, that it isn't part of His plan, that He won't set it right?

>No, because of free-will and because he doesn't have to micromanage the universe, he isn't an autist.

God isn't just the creator. He's also the sustainer. The world is not a mechanism that runs under its own power independent of God. Nothing happens without God way at the front turning the crank. God is an imminent, active force in all aspects of reality.

>Cain wasn't God's puppet acting out a predetermined murder written into time by God.

Human beings aren't puppets and I never said we are. Has it ever occurred to you that humans can use their individual moral agency and in so doing still be carrying out God's plan whatever their intentions or awareness? Free will and divine foreknowledge are not incompatible concepts. God knew that Cain would kill Abel before He created the universe and the murder was indeed part of God's plan for the universe. That doesn't negate Cain's free will nor absolve him of his moral culpability. If I build a time machine and travel to tomorrow and watch you go to the store then come back today, my knowledge that you'll go to the store tomorrow doesn't somehow remove your decision to go to the store tomorrow from your brain.

>Right, only in the sense that, God doesn't engage in collateral damage, not because it's somehow "justified" or we "deserve it".

We do all deserve death and our deaths are justified. That's why we die.

>We don't need to be innocent, we have inherent value to God by virtue of our mirror-image nature. Which is why Jesus came, and died for all, not just the righteous.

Inherent value or not we all still die and God is under no obligation to stay His hand if He wants to unleash His wrath.

>Are you a calvinist? Your theology sounds confused.

No, I'm not a Calvinist.

>>565592

>Did that abortion somehow catch God by surprise? You think that God didn't already know that it would happen before He created the universe, that He didn't account for it, that it isn't part of His plan, that He won't set it right?

Lets say I know a car bombing is gonna happen, and then I plan my day around it, does that mean I "prepared" the bombing to happen? Does that mean I "planned" it?

You previously said "God prepared our deaths for us before He created the world" which suggests agent causation, not just foreknowledge or working his plan around these events.

>Nothing happens without God way at the front turning the crank. God is an imminent, active force in all aspects of reality.

Ok so are you repeating the idea that God is the causal agent behind murder and abortion? And that such murders and abortions were preplanned by God, prior to any human deciding to do them? This turns God into an evil puppet master.

>We do all deserve death and our deaths are justified. That's why we die.

Just because something happens doesn't mean its deserved. Your logic makes morality an illusion. Your idea of God is senseless.

>Im not a calvinist

well you're repeating his nonsense.

>>565601

>Lets say I know a car bombing is gonna happen, and then I plan my day around it, does that mean I "prepared" the bombing to happen? Does that mean I "planned" it?

Semantics, then. God created the entire universe. You didn't. Your analogy is a false equivalence. Mine was to demonstrate a valid point.

>You previously said "God prepared our deaths for us before He created the world" which suggests agent causation, not just foreknowledge or working his plan around these events.

Maybe you should be more concerned with what I'm actually saying rather than what I'm saying merely "suggests" to you?

>Ok so are you repeating the idea that God is the causal agent behind murder and abortion?

>agent causation

>causal agent

You're reducing all types of causes as well as the prime mover to the efficient cause, then ascribing moral culpability for sin to the prime mover on the basis of your conflating of the prime mover with the efficient cause. Consider the possibility that the efficient cause of a sin bears the moral culpability for that sin while the other causes including the prime mover do not.

>And that such murders and abortions were preplanned by God, prior to any human deciding to do them?

Does God have foreknowledge or not? Is God omniscient or not? Did God create the universe or not? God created the universe knowing what potentialities would be realized. That doesn't render the potentialities that aren't realized impossible.

>This turns God into an evil puppet master.

No, it doesn't.

>Just because something happens doesn't mean its deserved.

The entire human species is under a death sentence handed down by God because we are sinners. That's the reason why humans die.

>Your logic makes morality an illusion.

No it doesn't.

>Your idea of God is senseless.

Because you don't understand it, nor do you seemingly want to.

>well you're repeating his nonsense.

No, I'm not. The only one pushing Calvinism is you, actually, as a straw man. Calvinism rejects free will, and I've spent the last several posts trying to show you how divine foreknowledge and divine providence is consistent with free will. That isn't a position that a Calvinist would take, since Calvinists reject free will. Stop arguing against an imaginary Calvinist and start engaging me please.

>>565618

>Semantics,

I'm not gonna bother with someone who uses language so poorly and imprecisely that he thinks that "allowing something to happen" versus "directly causing something to happen" is just "semantics".

Disgusting.

>>565622

I hope that you one day find an interlocutor who you deem worthy of trying to answer your question.

God is the master and owner of human life, He can do with it what He wants

>>565560

Perfect answer. Thank you for writing this, brother. I just wanted you to know that it was not pointless to write this and that there's at least one person out there who smiled because of it.

>>565637

That's wrong tho

>>565653

Don't think so bra

>>565560

Agreed. I have failed, and I still fail.

>>565580

>God doesn't engage in collateral damage, not because it's somehow "justified" or we "deserve it".

>Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

>visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me

Hmm….

>>565592

> Has it ever occurred to you that humans can use their individual moral agency and in so doing still be carrying out God's plan whatever their intentions or awareness? Free will and divine foreknowledge are not incompatible concepts.

This.

>>565592

>>565560

>>565592

This guy actually gets it.

>>565622

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4

God's salvation for the righteous who accept it is worth the creation of the wicked who define each other's roles, and will suffer punishment as a result.

>>565533 (OP)

Genesis 18:20-33

>20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;

>21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

>22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

>23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

>24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

>25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

>26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

>27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

>28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

>29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

>30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

>31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

>32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

>33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

>>565556

heh

>>565533 (OP)

>Why did God punish entire towns/communities for the sins of a few back in the day?

And Cain said, "Am I my brother's keeper?"

I think you're only asking that question because you live in these modern times of individual atomization; a community does not mean to you what it meant to ancient men. A community was a truly united thing, everybody was responsible toward the welfare of the larger community in some way. If Gay Gus is fucking small boys in the alleys, you got the mob out with pitchforks, torches, and rope to hang the perv. You don't have that these days now.

>>565533 (OP)

>Why did God punish entire towns/communities for the sins of a few back in the day? Thus hitting people that were not necessarily guilty of the necessary sins against him, sometimes even babies too.

Why is God letting Christians get raped and killed for the actions of a bunch of stupid atheists who wanted to feel tolerant and let in evil? The rules haven't changed.

>>565560

>God can kill whoever He wants whenever He wants however He wants.

maşallah