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File: 11c72e21a833f66⋯.jpg (141.52 KB, 1280x1764, 320:441, 11c72e21a833f667cf5e890528….jpg)

4acbea No.564264

I asked a while back if it was possible to be Orthodox AND Thomist and the reply from an Orthodox was "yeah, but it's uncommon." I forgot to screencap it so I can't remember the reasoning. Can someone help me with this?

I would like to ask also if it's possible to be Orthodox and follow Augustine on original sin (and Augustine in general) or is that treading into heresy territory? It seems very "pick and choose" of me but there's things I like about both the Catholic and the Orthodox. Unification can't come soon enough tbh.

b5dec2 No.564284

>>564264

>I asked a while back if it was possible to be Orthodox AND Thomist and the reply from an Orthodox was "yeah, but it's uncommon." I forgot to screencap it so I can't remember the reasoning. Can someone help me with this?

I believe I am that guy.

There are no anathemas against Thomism, and Aquinas was a real genius, and in fact his writings were very well received in the Orthodox world at first. Ecumenical Patriarch Gennadius II Scholarius in particular was a huge fan of Aquinas.

Modern Orthodox criticism of Aquinas is often that he is a scholastic, and scholasticism isn't Orthodox. These people often sweep St. John of Damascus under the rug.

Another modern criticism is that Aquinas's defense of the beatific vision (that we see God's essence) is at odds with the essence-energy distinction of Palamas that was dogmatized at the 5th Council of Constantinople. That often comes from a faulty reading of Palamas (indeed, Palamas himself admits that what some Fathers have called "essence" is really "energy") and a mindless opposition to everything associated with Barlaam (yes, Barlaam was a Thomist, but a really terrible one).

Finally, another common criticism is that Aquinas neglected prayer and humility in favor of scientific scholasticism. These people usually know nothing about Aquinas anyway.

However, Aquinas is nonetheless not part of Orthodox tradition, especially since the East began to drop Aristotle around the same time the West began to pick him up. It may also be difficult to treat everything Aquinas wrote as gospel, for obvious reasons (the filioque, the beatific vision, the defense of papal supremacy). You can be an Orthodox Thomist, but you have to keep in mind that it'll make you a tiny minority - not because Thomism is anathematized but because it's just not a remarkable part of our tradition.

>I would like to ask also if it's possible to be Orthodox and follow Augustine on original sin (and Augustine in general) or is that treading into heresy territory?

St. Augustine, as great as he was, found himself dealing with a theological question that simply does not appear for the Greeks because of a mistranslation in the Septuagint, giving rise to a wonky understanding of original sin, and of guilt and divine punishment. That's one thing Augustine got definitely wrong and we cannot accept as Orthodox. But does anybody really even follow Augustine at all? Augustine most certainly didn't have the impact on Latin theology that Orthodox polemicists like to claim, at least on the subject of guilt. If you follow everything Augustine wrote word for word, you'll be one of two persons in the world who does so, the other one being Augustine himself.

Because of the "Latin captivity," the Orthodox have become allergic to St. Augustine and to scholasticism, but this trend is starting to change, thankfully. You can most definitely be Orthodox and a fan of Augustine and of Aquinas, of course, just as long as you keep in mind the things they didn't get right.


ae917c No.564291

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>564264

>Unification can't come soon enough tbh.

Sorry bout that, but vid related

>I would like to ask also if it's possible to be Orthodox and follow Augustine on original sin (and Augustine in general) or is that treading into heresy territory?

I honestly do need to read a lot more Augustine to answer this accurately, but I think the best response is that it's ok to follow Augustine extremely closely, although perhaps not entirely, but that you can't really follow those who later exegeted Augustine in the West. Augustine wrote a lot of stuff over many years with some of his opinions or style changing, so its not really possible to just give a thumbs up or thumbs down on Augustine, that being on his writings, we do of course hold him to be a saint and a good example of asceticism and true faith. I would say though that there is currently a meme theology in pop Orthodoxy about rejecting original sin, while historically we have held original sin just defining it different from most Protestants and many Roman Catholics.

>It seems very "pick and choose" of me but there's things I like about both the Catholic and the Orthodox.

You just have to do you're very best at discerning what the apostles taught and what we can discern from that. Almost no one actually follows all of what any person wrote, and even when they do the person they are following did not themselves follow everything that someone else wrote, so trying to have only one teacher among the saints is over-rated, but a devotion to one can be very beneficial.

I wouldn't really say that an Orthodox Christian can be a Thomist though, there are something we just can't accept. I do think we can appreciate Thomas' faith and the immense amount of largely correct works he wrote though.


4acbea No.564294

>>564284

I cannot thank you enough for this post. I really appreciate it again.

What I like most about Aquinas is his metaphysics. I'm really attracted to Orthodoxy but part of what took me out of my nihilist-relativism was reading Aristotle and Aquinas so I'm fond of them.

You seem to know quite a bit about Aquinas. Do you have any recommendations for readings on Aquinas and Orthodoxy? Is Marcus Plested a good source? And lastly, do you have any personal favorite theologians? I like the way you think.


8cb4e8 No.564302

Yes, in fact, one was the Patriarch of Contantinople.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gennadius_Scholarius


b5dec2 No.564306

>>564294

I don't know much about Aquinas, although I've loved everything I've read of him so far (only extracts, no complete works yet). I'm more of a Palamas kind of guy. I'm a relatively recent convert to Orthodoxy, so I'd rather finish reading Philip Schaff's Church Fathers series and focus more on Orthodox writings before getting more deeply involved in the writings of other traditions (whether Catholic or Protestant). But, again, having gotten myself involved with a hardcore Thomist who believes Palamas is a polytheist, I've had to do more research on Aquinas than I had originally expected, and I find nothing objectionable about him, besides the obvious things we Orthodox and Catholics disagree on. I'm actually looking forward to reading more of Aquinas - I had been looking for a good introduction to him in my language but I got sidetracked.

As for Plested's "Orthodox Readings of Aquinas"… I haven't read it myself, but I've seen reviews of it before, and I have friends who have read it as well. It's apparently a good first attempt at documenting the relation between Thomists and Palamites, so if you've already read the main works of Aquinas and of Palamas, it sounds like a good book to me.

There is also "Aristotle East and West," although I've heard good to meh reviews (both from Orthodox people I know). The Orthodox person I know who liked it found it to be a great overview of how Aristotle's philosophy was "remixed" differently by East and West, with notably Aquinas and Palamas. The Orthodox person I know who disliked it found it to be too biased toward the Orthodox perspective, and too critical of the Roman Catholic one, and didn't do a very good job at analyzing where exactly Aquinas and Palamas do agree and do disagree.


b5dec2 No.564308

>>564294

>>564306

Also, thank you for your kind words! I do not deserve them.

I'm too focused on studying the Church Fathers and Church history to have a favorite theologian yet, whether ancient or modern. Well, I mean, I really, really like Palamas, so far. John Chrysostom and Augustine are obviously up there too. Note that I'm understandin here "theologian" in the Western sense, of course, since in the Eastern sense, only three canonized saints are called theologians.


4acbea No.564312

>>564302

Very interesting. Thanks.

>>564306

> Philip Schaff's Church Fathers series

Wow, this looks great.

TBH I'm another one of those hesitating between Catholic and Orthodox and it's getting kind of annoying now. I keep getting swayed from side to side.


b5dec2 No.564319

File: 26144ee21e1f893⋯.png (76.33 KB, 658x313, 658:313, cross expl.png)

>>564312

>Wow, this looks great.

Just don't pay too much attention to the notes. Schaff was a Calvinist and so wrote his commentaries from a very Reformed perspective, meaning he had a bone to pick with both Catholicism and Orthodoxy. But the collection itself is great, I know a couple of Orthodox priests who own it. It's also up for free at ccel.org.

>TBH I'm another one of those hesitating between Catholic and Orthodox and it's getting kind of annoying now. I keep getting swayed from side to side.

May God guide you on your journey, my friend. I don't have the energy to fight with Catholics about who is right, so I will not mention that you absolutely need to BEGOME ORDODOX :DDD

… but if you're stuck between Catholic and Orthodox, I strongly recommend Siecienski's two books: "The Filioque: History of a Doctrinal Controversy" and "The Papacy and the Orthodox: Sources and History of a Debate." They're not apologetics, although the author is Orthodox. They're attempts to put on the table everything there is to put on the table concerning these doctrines, to facilitate finding a common interpretation of the history. While the book on the filioque isn't perfect (Bernd Oberdorfer's "Filioque: Geschichte und Theologie eines ökumenischen Problems" is apparently the best work you can find on the subject), it's generally been seen as of lately as the best work you can find in English. As for the book on the Papacy, it only got excellent reviews so far.


b5dec2 No.564321

>>564319

>>564312

Also, the re-edition that is on ccel.org has additional notes from a Catholic, but Schaff's original notes remain. Again, don't let the commentaries guide your interpretation (but they're interesting either way).


0fbca4 No.564335

>>564319

>They're not apologetics, although the author is Orthodox

Hey Konstantinos whatcha doin'


b5dec2 No.564338

>>564335

What do you mean?


0fbca4 No.564340

File: 633e9b0c3a3de95⋯.jpg (79.8 KB, 480x634, 240:317, serveimage.jpg)

>>564338

It's a meme you dip


b5dec2 No.564341

>>564340

I know, but I don't get what you're implying here.


2c5f81 No.564378

Saint Thomas Aquinas would want you to be Catholic.


2c5f81 No.564379

>>564378

or rather; wants you to be Catholic


ae917c No.564468

>>564378

Wait Thomas Aquinas is dead? How did he die?


6d4628 No.564485

Wasn't St. Aquinas working on a way to mend the schism before he died?


ae917c No.564490

>>564485

Wait. So Aquinas was on his way to rebuke the Church and he died from a random happening? That's so weird


6d4628 No.564508

>>564490

He spent his life devoted to the Church, he wasn't going to rebuke it.


aa6b67 No.564519

>>564490

Maybe God wanted the schism to happen… in the end, we’ll have an answer when we die.


e40a50 No.564520

>>564294

Oh, yeah… And I heard that David Bentley Hart's "The Experience of God" has strong Thomist influences, from a Catholic, but I can't prove it as I haven't read it.


25b89d No.564547

>>564468

yeah, he stroke his head against a tree branch while he was working in the mending of the schism… I agree with >>564519, such manner of death (of brain trauma, he of all people!) has God written all over it


4acbea No.564555

>>564520

Nice, I've been meaning to read some Hart.

>>564547

>>564519

Yeah, this is very strange to me as well. Makes it seem as the schism is necessary.


3dda36 No.564834

File: b4605f0014b5b69⋯.jpeg (12.64 KB, 194x260, 97:130, images-1.jpeg)

>thomist orthos?

Consider that Aquinas quotes Maimonides to argue against St. John Damascene…




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