/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

From my understanding of it they can be saved despite ignorance as long as they have perfect contrition.

>>557599

There is no salvation outside of the Catholic church. This is dogma. However intention grants sacramental grace that incorporates us into Christ. God knows our hearts and knows what we would do if we knew the truth. And those who knowing the church, would become sacramental catholics are saved by that intention. Focus on your own salvation first before you worry about that of others. God needs you to be a perfect instrument of his will before he can use you.

Personally I think logically God makes himself known to all humans before their death to give them the choice. Those who are not catholic in heart are condemned when they die.

>>557599

There is life beyond earth you know. Dying isn't the end of everything. Non christians who do good in their life and constantly strive for truth, of course, won't be cast into the fire of hell, that would be unfair. However, they can't go straight into heaven either. They have to be purified and taught about the love of God first before being allowed to join the communion in heaven on the day of rapture. To put it briefly, everyone in heaven is a christian, but that doesn't mean all non christians are bound to be doomed.

It is hard however for a non christian to become good and strive for truth, because they don't truly understand what good is and what reason there is to strive for the truth. Many of them create their own idea of what is good and reject truth, and that would be a sin. Christians have the gift of knowing the truth, and the responsibility to help others in finding the truth.

>>557599

Basically all anons above are right. To add to that I will say what St. John Paul II said - that Christ is redeemptor of whole of human race. And thus, he gives ability to be redeemed to all. Otherwise he would nethier be redeemptor nethier just. Of course not all choose to act with grace given them majority even. But there is always possiblity for redeemption - the only case when it is not possible is when we reject it altoghether

>>557632

inside*

>>557636

>Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is still dogma, it does not matter what some people may believe. The Church never was a democracy and never will be. :)

I believe he was talking about baptism of desire, which is supported by actual Magisterial documents (as well as by saints like St. Thomas Aquinas or St. Alphonsus Liguori).

>>557599

Well, the Church never said the eskimo near the north pole who has never heard of Christ will go to hell. Church never even said Judas Iscariot went to hell. Those who haven't heard of Christ will be judged according to the natural law. But truth be told, we don't know how exactly are they judged, Christ never told us. Christ also never told us many other things, some things are simply a mystery.

Let me clarify something: only Catholic faith brings salvation. A protestant or a muslim cannot be saved by practicing protestantism or islam. However, it is possible that God might grant extraordinary grace to individuals because, for example, they have actively trying to avoid hell all their lives.

>>557638

> Non christians who do good in their life and constantly strive for truth, of course, won't be cast into the fire of hell, that would be unfair

I don’t see how it would be unfair. If someone has sinned in their life, and never known Christ, why shouldn’t they go to Hell? How can we compare this view of salvation by works alone to both scripture and earlier Catholic tradition?

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

How can we possibly believe that this is true, and also believe that someone who does good works but is not a Christian and never will be, will nevertheless make it to heaven? How can their sins be forgiven?

>>558159

My problem is simply that I don’t understand how someone can be saved without faith. How can we talk about the importance of faith if some eskimo who lived a pretty good life can be saved. That implies that he earned salvation through works without any faith, without knowing Christ. Protestants talk about Catholics and their supposed works based salvation, and mostly I’ve just assumed that they were wrong. However, if those who have never known Christ can be saved, this either leads to salvation by works alone apart from faith, or universal salvation.

>>558236

…the Catholic Church does not believe anyone can be saved without faith in Christ, quit believing lies

take this line of though to its logical conclusion, and then you realized over 2000 years of christians are damned just by being Catholic.

Sounds fishy right? Because it's a lie.

>>558236

and the number of people who get by on "inculpable ignorance" are few, few, very few.

there's an implication that Christ will be offered to them at the moment of their death, and they are free to choose Him or damnation. Remember, EVERYONE shall hear of Christ.

>>558138

>If someone has sinned in their life, and never known Christ, why shouldn’t they go to Hell?

If he begs to be forgiven for his sins, why should he be in hell, a place for the unrepentant? If he actively seeks for Christ but never has a chance to find him during his life, why should he be lumped together with those who deny him or doesn't try at all?

>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And what makes you believe that life on earth is the only chance for someone to know God?

>someone who does good works but is not a Christian and never will be, will nevertheless make it to heaven?

Not only he must do good works, he must also spend his life seeking for truth. Ask and you will be given. A father won't give a stone to his son who asks for a bread. And read one of Paul's letters, he said that the non-christians will be judged in accordance to their natural conscience.

>How can their sins be forgiven?

If God wants their sins to be forgiven, they are forgiven. You said it by yourself that they're saved through faith, so God may decide who's forgiven and who isn't.

>>558159

But nowhere in the dogma says that all non-christians are bound to go to hell. We still hold the belief that there is no salvation outside the church, and we're still able to talk about it freely. Not getting a salvation in their death doesn't mean that they will certainly go to hell.

However, people who don't know God's law will not have any clue of the damnation that awaits those who don't behave according to their God given conscience. God given conscience includes good deeds and yearning for truth. Those who ignore the conscience will be punished in hell, and due to their lack of knowledge, many non christians ignore their conscience. Christians are expected to be the prophets of truth who warn them of this danger.

>>558236

The meaning of the word faith itself is complete trust and confidence in something. Therefore, faith is belief and hope in truth. A man with faith will always seek for truth, and when he finds it, he will live with it. So that doesn't mean that those who never find God yet actively search for a form of divine ideal are without faith.

>>558305

Thanks for the reply, that does help me understand the idea of how non-Christians might be saved. I will have to think on it a bit further and read some more on the subject.