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/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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3871d8 No.554463

How to understand the world through a 15th century Catholic's eyes?

None of you are probably qualified in regards to historical context, but reading on contemporary culture has me thinking. E.g, soldiers daubing hymn lines onto their helmets, prayers and what not. How powerful was Christianity in the average Western European's psyche in the late Medieval era? How many of them actually followed its creed, how much sin was around compared to now? Do you think you as a modern Christian could even comprehend that kind of immersive culture where Christianity was so thoroughly pervasive?

Also because I have a project underway, I'm pondering on designs for a shield's paint job. I like the manuscript representations of daemons a lot, they look odd and spooky - what context/scenario would be appropriate for a painted rendition of one on a military tool like a shield? Considering that or doing like a danse macabre type thing.

454e1c No.554681

File: f279b838edadd90⋯.png (803.66 KB, 1223x659, 1223:659, Screenshot_2017-04-15-19-0….png)

>soldiers daubing hymn lines onto their helmets, prayers and what not.

Islam today

>How powerful was Christianity in the average Western European's psyche in the late Medieval era?

Islam today

>How many of them actually followed its creed, how much sin was around compared to now?

islam today

>Do you think you as a modern Christian could even comprehend that kind of immersive culture where Christianity was so thoroughly pervasive?

yes


bd1562 No.554683

>>554681

A E S T H E T I C

Man, Islam really makes us look like a bunch of pussies. The West seems destined to fall, there is no way the West will defend against that.


6670ad No.554684

>>554681

>girl not only showing her face, hair but also her décolletage

absolutely haram


7b1ac9 No.554685

>>554681

Anon actually aced the question.


4c6770 No.554687

>>554463

>How to understand the world through a 15th century Catholic's eyes?

nobody cares


e68040 No.554716

File: 0abb7ec25459d20⋯.jpg (70.19 KB, 655x606, 655:606, 1132132.jpg)

>>554681

>he fell for the devout Islam meme

habiba if you only knew as much Muslims as I do…


454e1c No.554726

>>554716

>he fell for the average western man in the late medieval era meme

>>>/reddit/


14f787 No.554731

>>554463

Tis my favorite. I say very religious in a sense but murder and rape is common.

Think of it in the eyes of borgia.


50c8c7 No.554797

>>554463

There's a series of documentaries called "Inside the Medieval Mind" you might be interested in watching if you can find it. Also Terry Jones's series "Medieval Lives"

>How powerful was Christianity in the average Western European's psyche in the late Medieval era?

Very. Have you read any books from the periods you're interested in? To them religion wasn't an add on, it was at the center of everything however it was interpreted with God read in the stars and Satan around every corner. The first books on zoology were about what animals could teach you about God for example. The fighting manuals show monks sparring, or end with how to pray for your fallen enemies. Even the artists studied nudes to further understand God because man was made in God's image. Christianity formed the entire world they lived in.

>How many of them actually followed its creed, how much sin was around compared to now?

The creed made the society so it was in the law. There doesn't seem to have been much doubt from the writings. How genuine they were who knows. Hard to say how much sin there was too and it depends on where and when. From what the paintings preach against I'd say drunkenness was an issue. Greed and vanity as well. I've seen art warning about gossip too. Very ordinary stuff.

I seriously doubt they fornicated as much as we do because of how stigmatized it was, but that's a guess. Morality was also different, knights raping the lady accompanying an enemy knight they defeated was a thing, at least in the early medieval period if I remember correctly, and in general of course there was more violence than we see today.

Another thing that's interesting is reading Dante's Divine Comedy the worst sin wasn't murder, it was treachery and betrayal. We definitely see things differently with more brutal crimes giving us a stronger emotional reaction now.

Sin had to vary from time to time and place to place. Still I can't imagine them being as degenerate as we are today. They couldn't afford to be and survive.

There was also that whole fiasco with "indulgences" which you might want to look into if you're interested in late medieval sins. Maybe it was rampant since it created an industry.

>Do you think you as a modern Christian could even comprehend that kind of immersive culture where Christianity was so thoroughly pervasive?

Maybe. It'd be a different set of rules than we're used too, possibly fewer counter to our own beliefs depending on the Christian. You wouldn't dare take the Lord's name in vain, but you wouldn't have to worry about saying something mean about fags or muslims getting you fired or listen to blaspheming fedoras anymore. Some might find it refreshing.

>what context/scenario would be appropriate for a painted rendition of one on a military tool like a shield?

There isn't one. They didn't paint demons on shields they painted standards. Images that signified who you were and what family you were a part of so when people saw you do something heroic it added to your reputation, and if you ran away you were shamed. A demon would be like painting "I and my family love Satan, please burn us to death" on the shield. The closest you'll find is probably griffons and dragons.

The concept of a "black knight" I've heard comes from knights who'd black their shields out because they were about to do something nasty and didn't want anyone to know who they were. Maybe one who felt bad about what he was doing might brush a crude demon on it. Just an idea.


14f787 No.554803

>>554463

I also remembered about monks/botanist who are not allowed to tinker the ways of planting because God made it that way.


6398e2 No.554805

>>554463

Think about a mix of early 19th century Japan and the Amish +a decent form of government. IT was pretty neat. So the jews hate it of course.


e8410f No.554815

File: 67572221bd9a883⋯.jpg (3.67 KB, 125x125, 1:1, dafug-bro.jpg)

>>554681

>your brain on Catholicism


5eb02f No.554822

File: f4c1e7eef00cf6e⋯.jpeg (51.02 KB, 350x350, 1:1, B846222E-5EF5-446A-96CE-7….jpeg)

>How to understand the world through a 15th century Catholic's eyes?

Pit on a blindfold


6e491d No.554824

>>554822

t. progressive Anglican


eceafd No.554825

>>554805

>IT was pretty neat.

Yeah, nothin' like dying of cholera at age 15. It sure was neat!


06e58d No.554827

File: 4dd67e6d6b503ff⋯.png (1.76 MB, 1200x800, 3:2, ClipboardImage.png)


eceafd No.554829

>>554463

Honestly, it wasn't much different than it is today, just with more disease and less technology. I don't know why people always have this idea that "if I were just born in a simpler time, I would be a god among men!" when it's simply not true.

90% of us would be extremely poor. I don't mean "can't afford a new iPhone" poor, but "I've lost 4 kids to starvation" pool.

70% of us would be illiterate farmers, scratching out potatoes and turnips on someone else's land.

30% of us would be dead from disease by age 30.

Since it would be all we know, it would just be "well, that's life"; but if you're imagining the 15th Century as a "man, I wish I was born then" kind of party time where you'd be called to Crusade and would be handed a glorious suit of armor and mad dosh from the Pope, you'd be wrong. Way wrong.


8f86f6 No.554830

>>554825

>be baptized as an infant

>receive first communion

>have confirmation

>die while still in the age of innocence

10/10 would if could


eceafd No.554839

>>554830

15 years old would not be the "Age of Innocence" back then. You'd be out working, probably married, and have at least 1 child by 15. Unless you were of the educated class, which chances are you would not be, then you'd probably have finished school and be apprenticed as a clerk somewhere by 15.

Renaissance Fairs and video games are wrong.


8f86f6 No.554870

>>554839

>there was no difference between a 15 year old and a 50 year old in the middle ages

>le men were getting married before adulthood meme

>if you weren't a nobleman you'd be middle class

>if you weren't landed gentry you'd be a bourgeois

what the fuck


2540ef No.554877

>>554716

>>554726

Islam acts like Marduk of babylon.

you can and even SHOULD pillage and rape for his glory,as he protects your empire and wants it to be stronk,but you must be loyal to him.

a devout muslim doesn't even love muhammed or allah, he signs a contract with him,and lends his pyshical body to fight for him. he is a soldier working for a cosmcratic general.

t.historian of religious thought


eceafd No.554883

>>554870

You do realize that the definition of "adulthood" has changed over the centuries, right?

>middle class

Did not exist in the 15th century. You either were landed nobility OR you were nothing. Maybe pick up a history book sometime, friend.


e33e6e No.554912

>>554827

Oh God I just saw the black Man(Woman?) priest in the cargo shorts. How do these people take themselves seriously?


d1f77c No.554927

File: 3a92aa0edce90b5⋯.jpg (27.08 KB, 236x354, 2:3, e12d58aab3e36665b64a4cb1c8….jpg)

>>554883

Quite the contrary. Burghers and the middle class were beginning to rise up, you're thinking about the 14th century and earlier. The 15th century is where class blurred increasingly, as populations boomed after the Black Death and urbanization took off. By the end of the century knights became gradually less common, with many professional soldiers (men at arms) being unable to afford the knightly lifestyle. They remained simple free men or accepted the title of 'esquire' or 'gentlemen', at least in England. By the 16th century knighthood was bought.

>>554797

>There isn't one. They didn't paint demons on shields they painted standards. Images that signified who you were and what family you were a part of so when people saw you do something heroic it added to your reputation, and if you ran away you were shamed. A demon would be like painting "I and my family love Satan, please burn us to death" on the shield. The closest you'll find is probably griffons and dragons.

Yeah, if you were a knight or part of a well reputed family with a coat of arms that's the kind of stuff you'd adorn your gear with. If you're an average bub you'd take on the livery of your lord, the insignia/colors of your town, and so on - but mercenaries are a little bit different IIRC. In general a soldier could personalize his stuff with a bit of paint. Footmen with pavises in the 15th century actually had a lot of free reign to paint how they liked on their shields - it even heightened employment, if you were a mercenary of some kind. Usually they painted a saint like George killing a dragon, or other religious symbology. What I'm thinking with a demon is, maybe a saint killing a demon? I'll ponder this a bit. Any cool saints from the 15th century and before that could make a good shield effigy?


a3dee7 No.554929

File: 59f3d200f1462e3⋯.jpeg (67.7 KB, 475x395, 95:79, 68A0A776-02D2-446B-B401-B….jpeg)

>>554827

>doesn't realize cathlodox support sodomy more than proddies


ce9e1d No.554969

>>554929

in the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox churches ( for the most part, the Catholic Church is the only one with the complete truth), dogma is not determined by what you the adherents to the faith think. While in Protestantism it is, which is why it changes every year and conforms to the world, while you have the faith handed down by the apostles preserved for 2000 years.

An example, women bishops in Anglicanism.

And an example of Catholicism and how it's guided by the Holy Spirit. more than 60% of American Catholics do not believe in the real presence of the Eucharist, and a great deal of clergy acts like they do not believe it. The teaching handed down by the apostles, and by Christ Himself, remains unchanged.


cce239 No.554978

>>554969

>And an example of Catholicism and how it's guided by the Holy Spirit. more than 60% of American Catholics do not believe in the real presence of the Eucharist, and a great deal of clergy acts like they do not believe it. The teaching handed down by the apostles, and by Christ Himself, remains unchanged.

But you just said that they don't believe it.


5bc352 No.555096

>>554978

It doesn't matter who believes what, except the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Lay people have no power in the True Church, and that's the way it should be. obey your fucking bishop you pleb.


06e58d No.555098

>>554929

>Neither Catholicism or Orthodoxy allow homosexuality and consider it to not be a sin

>We're more ok with it though


5bc352 No.555106

>>554929

You support sodomy because you promote the hardening of hearts.

The heresy of reprobation came from Protestant "minds", which encourages an arbitrarily hopeless attitude among this class of sinners.

The catholic position – which is that homosexuality is a disordered way of thinking and being which can be addressed like all sins through repentance and the sacraments – is far less supportive of the underlying problem than the majority protestant view. The catholic position actually addressed the issue while protestant heretics can only seem to either accept homosexuality, sweep it under the rug, or go overboard and create some arbitrary class of sin which is unforgivable.

You lot aren't capable of having a healthy attitude about sin because you're all whacko heretics with neither charity nor a healthy concept of obedience.


5bc352 No.555107

>>555106

Forgot to say that Protestantism is itself a disordered way of thinking and being just like homosexuality. It ultimately stems from the same font: childhood problems with authority and the need to be a special snowflake.


424142 No.555114

File: 02ac7c4f8fe3434⋯.png (195.25 KB, 480x640, 3:4, 4770181b742f4317413fe4c53e….png)

>>554463

If you read about the miracles that happened during the crusade. That told me how strong their Faith was anyways…


20ce28 No.555127

>>555114

> the miracles that happened during the crusade

Like losing Jerusalem to the Saracens? Miraculous!


424142 No.555133

>>554927

Well, Michael the Archangel is a classic scene.

Wonder how old that is…


424142 No.555141

>>555127

I know you're trolling but here's your (you) anyways. I remember scrolling through a book of letters and reports written during the crusades. Its more along of 'minor' miracles that I'm referencing.

Muslims being so enthralled by a Bishop's love of God that they give him and his party gifts instead of murder.

Men forced to fast while under siege becoming filled with the Holy Spirit and the battle turning a 180 in their favor.

Those kinds of things. Some wouldn't call those miracles, but these are the same people who are often oblivious to the miracles in their everyday life.


6002eb No.555445

File: 702bb5fa6b6e344⋯.png (162.67 KB, 454x800, 227:400, 702bb5fa6b6e3441df4e355b50….png)

>>555096

>It doesn't matter who believes what, except the Magisterium which is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Actually last time I checked the history was that the Magisterium was full of liberals that commanded in things like the Novus Ordo mass in order to appeal to protestants.

Also big Pope believes that atheists can go to heaven if they're nice people but "That doesn't count because he didn't make his view official yet".

Why are you so avert to believe that the Magisterium has become corrupted? Novus Ordo mass literally came down form official channels.

This all reminds me of when Jesus Christ was doing miracles but people asked for even bigger ones– But this time its the Devil sending his commandments but people reject that the church has been corrupted and demand bigger heresies until they run away.


35f20f No.555509

>>555445

>Actually last time I checked the history was that the Magisterium was full of liberals that commanded in things like the Novus Ordo mass in order to appeal to protestants.

Salvation is the highest good possible, and the bad effect of making the Mass (arguably) slightly less beautiful (while still holy, valid and licit) is nothing compared to the good effect of saving Protestants by making them convert to Catholicism. Whether this plan succeeded I don't know - I don't live in a place with many Protestants - but it wasn't heretical. Also, beware of spiritual gluttony.

>Also big Pope believes that atheists can go to heaven if they're nice people but "That doesn't count because he didn't make his view official yet".

It doesn't count because he didn't say it. Stop trusting clickbait.

>Why are you so avert to believe that the Magisterium has become corrupted?

Where?


20cef3 No.555510

>>554687

then don't contribute to the thread, dingus


6002eb No.555516

File: dfb38a7071db52c⋯.jpg (184.76 KB, 550x388, 275:194, JUSTBREADBRO.jpg)

>>555509

>and the bad effect of making the Mass (arguably) slightly less beautiful

>slightly less beautiful

Is it "slightly less beautiful" when you hand down the flesh on the hand of parishioners and tell them that its "just bread"?

>Where?

Please wake me up.


b27e8a No.555534

>>555516

>Is it "slightly less beautiful" when you hand down the flesh on the hand of parishioners and tell them that its "just bread"?

No, this is liturgical abuse. I'm talking about NO as it's supposed to be done, not as it's abused by individual priests.

>Please wake me up.

Now answer the question.


6002eb No.555540

>>555534

>I'm talking about NO as it's supposed to be done, not as it's abused by individual priests.

I am sorry, is there something I am misunderstanding? Is there some reason Tridentine mass isn't abused but NO is?


c080c0 No.555542

>>554822

guided by faith? sounds good


b27e8a No.555550

>>555540

Presumably it's because NO is the default, but this is irrelevant to the issue.




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