/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>530405

Because they believe only a Roman Catholic priest is capable to transform the substance/accidents of the Eucharist into the blood/body of Christ.

>>530412

They don't believe the accidents change

>>530412

pretty sure that the orthodox can do such a thing its just illicit

Because schismatics are still part of the church. Anyone who has validly ordained apostolic bishops holds the one church in its wholeness and universality for the church exists in the eucharist and the body of christ cannot be divided.

Those who knowingly schism though are condemned

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid_but_illicit

>>530437

okay that explains how the orthos can receive the body and blood of Christ,

but still leaves the mystery of how, in that case, are they incapable of salvation?

>>530437

>Anyone who has validly ordained apostolic bishops holds the one church in its wholeness

to pick nits, doesn't that contradict this?

>"The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter." Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church." With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist." (CCC 838)

>>530439

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic_et_Non

Unam sanctam & Cantate domino > Lumen gentium tbh

(inb4 "n-not ex cathedra")

>Implying Orthodox is not the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

>>530622

> This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Romans 1:20

>>530638

Knowing that God is (and even what God is)=/=knowing that Christ came and built his Church.

Consider this. By power of natural reason alone one can proove that a) God is one b)God is Three persons non less, not more

And yet, "from the creation of the world" this clear Truth of natural reason apart from faith is :clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made" and yet, there is zero Trinitarians here save Christians.

Reading m8, it's fun.

Becuase they consider Orthodox to be part of the united church. Similarly how we consider pope to be patriarch of the west (somewhat)

>>530660

you miss my point, the scripture is saying that there is no-one who can claim on Judgement Day that 'through no fault of their own', they never came to Christ

reading is moar fun if you l2exegete

>>530405

this:

>>534464

Grace enters the world through the Church. People can still receive graces through exposure to the Church without being in it. Sometimes, these graces are to move someone to join the Church.

It is through the grace of God that we are sanctified - and this is how we receive salvation. The question as to whether or not those outside of direct communion with the Church that are baptized go to Purgatory is one that cannot really be solved right now, although it has been struggled with. Just like how infants who die before the baptism are left to the grace of God as to their destination, according to the Catechism, I believe that Christians outside of the Church are the same. I believe they go to Purgatory when they die.

That being said, Purgatory is not salvation in and of itself. It is a grace that leads to salvation. Salvation is truly attained when someone enters Heaven. The only people who enter Heaven from Earth are saints - who were in the Church while still on Earth. When someone goes to Purgatory, they are then a part of the Church - The Church Penitent instead of the Church Militant as we are on Earth.

Therefore, nobody enters into Heaven from outside of the Church. Perhaps it is possible, due to the grace of God, that those who have been affected by grace through the Church on Earth enter into the Church upon death and pass into Purgatory.

I choose to believe this based on the fact that my entire family is Protestant. So take it with a grain of salt.

watching catholics do backflips to defend super bishop (commie pope) is hilarious

>>530698

diapas

>>534576

What is debatable? If the RCC is the true Church of Christ, then you can get everything but true salvation outside of it. I personally believe that anyone outside of the Church that believes in Christ shall be presented with special graces during the harrowing in purgatory/sheol/whatever, but only the True Church gets the true fruit of Salvation.

>>534610

Furthermore, if you wish to believe that all denominations - as long as they profess belief in Christ - receive the fruits of true salvation, then you risk putting the authority of Christ under relativity. You can believe female priests can be ordained, and that homosexual marriage is just as holy as regular marriage, and not risk losing the fruit of salvation.

Obviously, that is probably not the case. This is why I personally can not really justify the existence of truly alien denominations, at least Anglicans/Lutherans/Orthodox realize the contradiction, although the Protestants have failed recently.

>>534464

Put this quote in to the historical context. The universal church of Christ, or catholic church before becoming the state religion was a non authoritarian non centralized body. This was not a unified (other than in the general purpose of saving souls) structure of what the Catholic Church means now. Meaning there were many patriarchs that respected the other areas respected theologies and church leaders. Covering large and small churches spread far and wide. It was a diverse body of ministers that had local flavors and points of faith they focused on more than others. The idea that there is a living head of the Christ church (papacy) would not have been a concept at the time. It is not an actually accurate to think Augustine's view of the church is the view we think of when the name catholic church is used today. I do not think we can have a comparable way to view what the Church was thought of at that time before becoming dominant in the west, both in faith and politics.

To have an idea of how the concepts even using the same name can change though time, think of England. At some points of history it was a non-important back woods, at times a great empire, now a birthing Caliphate. Placing concepts in a time frame is important to understanding the authors intent.

>>534917

Except in broad strokes all those demoninations" believed in largely similiar if not the same doctrines and disciplines: the Real Presence, Mass, Scipture and Tradition, monasticism, hierarchical clergy. Pretty much everything up until after the Second Nicaean Council, which was a time that even Calvin said was perfect.

Where this logic breaks down is when people started thinking that these thigs are either irrelevant or "symbolic", or that sacred disciplines are burdensome of "medieval" and that morality is chronological, is where you start to really stray outside of the Church, which is where all protestant denominations now find themselves.

>>534610

>>534612

> If the RCC is the true Church of Christ, then you can get everything but true salvation outside of it.

I guess it's one of those hard truths that one must accept and just deal with.

>>534944

the hard truth isn't ecclesiam nulla salus; its that its only salvation that's withing the church

particularly that the eucharist exists outside the church

>>535883

The other hard truth, is that those Eucharists are considered illicit.

>>535988

>illicit

yet valid

>>537661

what does this mean?