/agdg/ - Amateur Game Development General★

I am also looking for an art-... fuck it, I'll draw shit myself.

>>25080

Yeah, I feel that. Unfortunately I'm already writing, programming, directing, handling the website, social media, and engine development - or else I'd just fucking do it myself, too.

>>25081

Well I also do all these things alone, + learning how to make music. I do pretty much everything alone except social media because I just can't stand whoring myself out.

Well sorry for screwing with the thread a little, teams built over the internet are just so...

>>25089

You're not screwing with the thread champ, it's alright.

Advice though, if you don't learn to whore yourself out, no one will ever know your game exists.

>>25089

It hurts to say. But you gotta whore yourself out. And even more painful is that Reddit seems the best place to do so because many outlets look for things to write about on Reddit. Many Escapist, Kotaku, etc. articles are just stories or posts that come from Reddit.

>>25127

I tried whoring myself out on reddit and tigsource, turns out whenever I'm posting on an indie related forum, I'm basically advertising to other developers, which most of them aren't interested in playing/buying/testing other people's games.

Would posting on reddit gamedev/tigsource even make sense when you know most of that audience is not actual gamers, but developers?

I'd ask for artists if I had the money, so I'll ask this instead: What's a good 3D animation program, and what do you think of the animation style of shit like Peace Walker's cutscenes with the whole tweened comicbook aesthetic?

>>25079 (OP)

Can you go into a little more detail on which sprite sheets you are looking for and any kind of style you are interested in?

harvest moon

smt

final fantasy tactics

pokemon

chrono trigger

That's some serious breadth in pixel art style there. Do you have any concept art?

>>25133

Email me and we'll talk.

>>25132

Maya is the best broadly available full program to my knowledge. But don't let anyone catch you pirating that expensive pile of bloat. For games I dunno if I'd bother with it even if I had that particular feature for free. Overall all generalist programs will be competent for game animation.

Can't talk about style, but technically that's really basic 2D stuff. The sort a pimply teen can clap together with toonboom or flash.

>>25128

Reddit is full of normalfags with no attention span, so threads tend to get ignored or pushed off the frontpage fast. It works better if you have something to show that looks finished. Tigsource is a circlejerk of mostly shitty developers, I don't really see the point of posting there.

I think the best option is something like Tumblr or Twitter, places where you can keep posting progress that a lot of your target audience will see. You're just uploading to your own blog and letting people find you. It's a long process but after about a year of frequent updates you should have a sizeable following. If your game looks good that is.

>>25195

>Reddit is full of normalfags with no attention span, so threads tend to get ignored or pushed off the frontpage fast

I feel the same way, and to top that, it's developers patting each other on their backs, no audience for your game unless it's amazing. Maybe reddit works well if you have a great game to show off.

>Tigsource is a circlejerk of mostly shitty developers, I don't really see the point of posting there.

I can't say how much I agree with this, most of the moderators also can't stop shutting up about how much they hate gamergate, and how great and informative zoe quinn and anita is, they actually take opinions from feminists and think it's great feedback for them as game devs.

Some other moderators warn people who disagree with on issues like these, doesn't happen all the time, but it depends on how ban happy the mods are there. Also, topic where everyone discusses their game, and the devlogs either have no replies, or people having their forum drama and jokes.

I can't stand that place, but sadly it's so popular, even notch has a minecraft thread there from way back, but then again, it's mostly devs who would view my game so I just don't know if I should post there or not.

I have my own blog, had it for like two months, guess what the visitor count is... 0. It's because I have to spread the word somehow or else no one finds my blow, and if I do talk about my blog people get upset that I am shilling.

Would simply making a tumblr account that you keep updated be enough? Would people automatically find it after some months of constant updates? I imagine that I still have to talk about it a lot so people are aware of it.

>>25199

I gave up on tigsource when I saw them worshipping Phil Fish when he posted there. And after I briefly ended up working with a SJW. I didn't know the place was that bad.

People will find your blog if you tag your posts. Tumblr makes the domino effect really obvious with reblogging, but that means it's still a matter of making your game look eye-catching. I don't think you'll get around that, no matter where you post.

If nothing else you have a place that has your work gathered. You can follow other devs, mingle with them and find potential partners to collaborate with.

>>25228

Serious dev here. Post your portfolio onegaishimasu.

>yeah, I haven't shipped a commercial product, but I have finished game jams and have tons of freeware under my belt...

>... do visual novels count? :P

>>25228

I always think telling people in your team everything about your game is a good idea, because you want people to be interested in the project so they have motivation to work on.

The problem is when someone with no interest and motivations joins a project they don't care about, there is no reason for them to keep going, so it's better to abandon from the start people that make flappy bird tier games, and try to find something you are interested on.

If you are an artfag you pretty much have a lot of choices, there are a lot of programmers looking for artists, so you can just filter out projects you don't like. The engine thing depends though, plenty of successful games were made in simple engines, it all depends if the person is making angry birds #2552525 or super indie bros, or maybe trying something interesting instead.

>>25229

Not really looking to join anything at this exact moment. I just started working on my own game projects again.

Also how come you're looking for artist if you've already made a VN?

>>25233

What I meant by "engine" was that the dev is basically learning to program more than making a game. I don't want to expend effort on someone's first steps in learning. A lot of people start looking for team members when they put their foot into the water for the first time and get excited about "being able to" make games.

>If you are an artfag you pretty much have a lot of choices, there are a lot of programmers looking for artists

I always get the picture that there's an overflow of artists so game devs can easily find very skilled artists, and the art-less programmers are exactly those beginner types who don't really have anything other than their dreams. Maybe that's just because I hang out in artist communities more.

>>25236

>What I meant by "engine" was that the dev is basically learning to program more than making a game

Are you a professional artist? I can understand that frustration if you are, it sucks, but if you are a beginner you shouldn't expect professionals to work with you for the obvious reason. After all this is amateur vidya development.

>>25242

Sometimes it's really really hard using placeholders because you program things in such a way that things would only make sense with actual models and animations, fighting games, or other precision things. Those can be hard to define with stuff like boxes, if you actually need to see a punch in the works you have to draw a human and a punch like it would be in the final game.

>>25236

>I always get the picture that there's an overflow of artists so game devs can easily find very skilled artists, and the art-less programmers are exactly those beginner types who don't really have anything other than their dreams.

That's the impression I get. Everyone who really needs an artist already has one.

/agdg/ and the /v/ dev threads are mostly anons asking questions, there's little progress and even fewer projects I'd actually want to work on.

>>25246

it's because programmers can't find time to draw and progress a lot on the game, or make 3D models/animations

I imagine that if you as an artist would draw and program an entire game, you wouldn't make a lot of progress in either area.

>>25248

>If I wasn't so dedicated to my final product looking EXACTLY as I'm laying it out (and if I wasn't a poorfag) I'd outsource my art.

Pretty much my problem, and I feel what you are saying in your post. It just a massive time sink of doing everything, if you know you want to not make your game shit, it will just take a ton of time. Now I have to start learning music theory too, on top of drawing and programming.

I know for sure it will be hell to post progress because you are constantly switching between making assets and implementing features.

>>25247

That's true, yet the games I see the most progress of in the /v/ threads either already have artists or are made by those 1 man armies you mentioned. I'm not asking programmers to find the time to draw since (ideally) that'd be my job. I want programmers to program, because I don't see enough interesting prototypes being made.

Years ago I've offered my help in the old AGDG threads and was always approached by people who had nothing they were working on. So we started from scratch and it never lead anywhere.

Really, the best way to get an artist to want to work for you is to show you have a promising looking game. But those projects are elusive as fuck since they already have someone lined up or someone better who will offer their help.

>>25250

You seem like a decent guy from reading all these posts. I'd ask you to be my artist since I'm working alone on everything but I can't promise that my game will be successful at all, and I don't have any money to pay you.

But instead I'm sure that you can simply post some of your artwork here, or just make a thread and you'll get a ton of programmers who want a programmers, even on this dead-ish board. Just be sure to specify what games you are interested on, and don't join projects that have idea guys behind them. Ask for anything, even a simple prototype, don't join projects from scratch.

If I were you I'd show my art and describe the circumstances under which I would draw for someone, you'll get some responses/prototypes in that way.

>>25239

There's a big difference between amateur and "learning to program". The former can make at least some kind of games, and the latter just finished collision detection for the first time.

The potential to do something really fun and creative is there as evidenced by my own projects, so it's very demotivating to work on another stock shmup engine or some bejeweled clone by someone who does lesser programming than I can do myself.

>>25253

Appreciated, I guess.

Truth be told, I don't really like posting my work around, even less so to get people to approach me. I'd much rather approach someone else and offer what I got than the other way around. The game part comes first, after all. I'm also guilty of a few things talked about in >>24661 so I can't say I'm a paragon of diligence.

Working in teams online is hard. The greatest successes I've had were from game jams, but they never bore fruit past that. I still think they're the best way to springboard a project, or at least get acquainted with a team.

>>25258

>There's a big difference between amateur and "learning to program". The former can make at least some kind of games, and the latter just finished collision detection for the first time.

you are right, I thought the the complaining was about guys that can't program some advanced physics game, or make their own engine

I will strongly discourage any artist from working for free, either with strangers or friends. The amount of times that works out for the artist in particular is negligible. The artist will do all of the heavy lifting only to maybe get paid some arbitrary marginal amount they should have been paid to begin with if the game is successful, while the idea guy runs off with the money. Don't be retarded.

Any of you interested in creating art for yourself feel free to visit

>>>/loomis/

or

>>>/art/

>>25335

Well, yeah, artists shouldn't work for free. But they need to remember that if the rest of the team pulls a group effort to make a project with no funding, no one gets money until it's done, not just the artist. No one is saying that we should get free art, but rather that they should do it as a hobby or do a profit share.

>>25398

>Look, if you want illustrators to work for free, just be honest and say so. If you try to doublespeak your way around it, you will only create reason for them to distrust you.

No idea what you are talking about, there is no doublespeak. All I am saying is that I am working for free, doing all the other work that doesn't involve drawing. So, how about the lazy artists stack their cup of noodles just like me and get a damn job, I don't get a single penny so they should suck it up too. This is not fair treatment, I would understand you if I am making profit but I am not.

As I said before, this doesn't mean that you shouldn't pay people on your team but you just fail to realize that just like them I also have to eat my noodles so I can afford to live for myself. So the fancy artists either get talented and find a bigger team that pays cash, or someone who is experienced and has saved up money, or work for profit share with one or two guys in a project he believes in. Fair treatment means we all get to eat the noodles.

>>25399

Maybe if you hadn't gotten your ideas on economics from leftypol you wouldn't try to pull this retarded shit, but whining and crying that it just isn't fair won't get you anywhere in an environment where people with talent and desired skills can just tell you to fuck off, which is exactly what they will do if you try to treat them like their work is worth paying them nothing for.

The fact of the matter is that your personal financial problems are none of the artist's business. The relationship between you, the project lead, and any asset producers is that of a client and a service provider. It doesn't matter if you want them to draw stuff for charity, for a video game, or for something to hang up on your ceiling for you to masturbate to before sleeping. What matters is that you want a product, and they get to name their price and terms for that product. They don't have to give a fuck what you will do with it when they deliver.

Get the idea of profit sharing out of your head. It is dumb and nobody with an ounce of self respect will roll with it. Artists are not investors, they don't care to put their time and effort into a venture in the hopes that maybe they'll get a trickle of income from it over the two years after its release. It's just a way for you to demand work without paying anything up front and nobody will fail to see through that.

Again, commissions are not expensive. Especially given the time involved in the development cycle of a project. Even with a budget of something like $20k or so, spreading that cost over a year or more while assets are produced one at a time makes the whole process very affordable even for someone living on, say, $1600 a month. And you can maintain that easily working in a retail warehouse for ten bucks an hour at forty hours per week. It's not hard, just quit being a NEET leech and you'll be able to pull it off. Or you could just keep whining about how people should work for you for free. Guess which approach will actually get your project finished?

>>25406

OK let me explain this shit down for a moment because we are getting in that moment where we waste 20 posts shitting on each other.

No one is fucking whining and crying over anything, who the hell are you even quoting in this thread? Talented artists with desired skills can go join talented people who will pay them, I don't give a shit, this is what they should do. I didn't ask no one to work for free while I swim in money and hire prostitutes? I didn't go in this thread or anyone else to ask for a professional artist to work for me as my bitch slave while I swim in cash.

And yes, it doesn't matter for the artist what my personal financial problems are but what the hell are you even talking about? Where the fuck do you see people here drawing things for charity, you saw a free artist willing to work for years with me on something so I can hang shit on my wall, and give him nothing in return? Sign me up whenever you see this.

A lot of artists (and I don't say all because they aren't the same you fucking douche) aren't investors because they are lazy bums, don't fucking tell me to work in retail to hurry up and empty my cash for the artist on a project that is a hobby. No one is forcing artists to join projects they don't like, so if they don't want to work with someone who is also working for free then they are free to draw whatever the hell they want. For all I care they should join whatever fucking company they want and really start getting paid, good for them, I wasn't arguing against this.

But if they are too inexperienced to actually get paid, and they want to join a project that is being made as a hobby by a team who has no money to fund it then who are you to say that they should get paid if they want to just do it for experience and maybe to hope that they have success with that first project? It takes a lot of years to learn how to draw so fuck you if you think I'll pay someone who just started not long ago.

People just need to remember that if they join someone who does this as a hobby then the project will be a group effort, and if they don't like it then they shouldn't have started in the first place. Because no one forced them to do it.

So how about you get a fucking job you lazy bum, stop sitting on your ass and stop calling people NEET because you aren't professional enough to join a competent team, and get some fucking money and stop complaining? You don't wanna work for free? FINE, no one is forcing you. I ain't working for someone else either and I wasn't even saying that you shouldn't get paid.

But I'd work for free with someone who has a project that really interests me, with the idea of profit share in my mind if I have trust in that person and it seems like a really nice project. Because I ain't a fucking leech, get a drawing job and shut up because nbo one is stopping you. Never join teams in which ALL MEMBERS work for free if that's not your thing. If you do that, you aren't the only one entitled to money while the rest work for free. I have seen some nice freeware games that were made by people in their spare time and if that's not what you want to do don't tell me like I asked for artist slaves, I would pay good artists if I had money but I don't and I want someone who is at my level, willing to pull a group effort if they are interested, and only then.

>>25412

You know what let me just TL;DR this post. If you are a beginner, I won't pay you.

No one would pay me either to program for their game because I am also a beginner, and by beginner I mean someone that did not make any money with their skill because of inexperience, not someone who is just learning how to draw, program or make music. If you want to help out and complete a project using rev share because you think it's worth it, then you shouldn't bitch about getting special entitlement when no one else in the team is getting paid. Anyone deserves money when they are good at something, not just artists.

>>25422

I am wearing multiple hats, artists just don't deserve to be paid any more than the programmers, musicians and writers, especially if one person is not only programming but designing multiple parts of the game. And this only applies to cases where people join a hobby project.

I don't want to continue talking about this, but there are hobby projects where two people or so teamed up, both with different skills to make a game. Risk of rain had two guys with multiple hats from what I know, no one paid for an artist because no one was actually paid in the first place. The did a kickstarter to buy a soundtrack, and the rest worked with revshare probably.

I think it's the same with hotline miami, I really don't think someone was paid to draw it, it doesn't look great at all, and at the same time, both members had the same amount of money, from what I remember in the documentary there were two guys probably just like in RoR who were betting on a game. How about Iji, if you know that game there were about two musicians giving their work for free, and they knew that they were doing it as a hobby because they liked the game. I don't see anything wrong with occasionally doing something just for fun.

If you decide to join a hobby project, and you know it's gonna be awesome and you like working on it you deserve to be paid if the other members do, but otherwise the programmers, writers and musicians really deserve money just like the artist, he isn't special. Now of course these hobby projects are rare, and they only are made up by people who like working with others and just wanna finish something fast, and have great trust in each other. This is why they should become friends with the artist, because it's not professional.

Your remarks about me working in retail is not something that I am afraid because it's below me and it's quite stupid to say that, it's below other people who know they are working in a non professional project that they agreed to use rev share, to expect one member of the team to work much much harder than the other just so the other one can have money and sit on his ass. So no matter how much I could work, don't tell me that I should be the one paying if someone agreed to work with me for free.

In that quote I wasn't discouraging artists to work for money, I said that if someone willingly team up to work for the sake of a project because they both love it, the artist shouldn't get money/special treatment. By this thinking anton and coolpecker should pay the artist right? It doesn't matter that they teamed up for free, all of them? Well it does, because they all work for the same amount of money, nothing. And I'm not sure about katawa shoujo which was also a group effort but probably no one made money with that, thought don't quote me on this for sure.

So how about you stop trying to guilt trip me into paying people when they want to help me get a project done, and if they trust it, they get a share? They are basically stakeholders at that point, and unless my project is great it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to do that. But if they see that something good is going to come out of this, then maybe they get some good money, it's a bet that they take and no one is forcing them. Don't try to shit on programmers, they have to do multiple things, and artists aren't the hardest working people in the team, what they have is years of drawing experience which makes them valuable.

I won't take money out of my pocket if I am making a game with potential just to pay some pretentious douche unless he is indeed skillful, if they aren't great at drawing, but there are plenty of people who overestimate how good they are, and they wouldn't exactly be hireable, people join teams mostly because they don't have time to do everything at once. Not because it's impossible to make art, music and the code. So I would treat others like I treat myself, if I personally want to work on a project that seems great to me for free, I will not go out of my way to ask for payment unless I know that I really deserve it. And I know that I won't really join these hobby projects in the first place, because most people don't know how to make games and I think I can do better by myself.

And your passive aggressive shit is not working here, you were the one who called me a NEET and of course I'd tell you that I'm not a fat guy living in the basement like you assume me to be. Not really sure what you are trying to do with this, people can work minimum wage and not all live in great countries you know? So unless they get some outside funding it's next to impossible to save money to pay for someone else. I am that typical indie guy meaning that I'm always living eating cheap, and doing whatever I can to save up money, but sometimes the only way to pay for people is funding. I assume yanderedev is also a retard because he gets funding to pay himself and others right? Here's the thing, he first got money for himself, before paying other volunteers. From what I remember all he did was but one generic asset at the beginning. Oh how cruel of him, he didn't have a ton of money to buy the rest of the people who help him until he got funding, he should be shot right?

You are a biter person because your project failed and you know no one is gonna work on it for free, well guess what, there are still people that can't wait to work on other's projects, and I named there before, two good examples are anton and coolpecker and yandere simulator also has free volunteers sometimes.

I greatly appreciate artists, musicians, writers, programers, sound designers and anyone else, so it's not like I hate them, I'd love to have some great people like that work with me more than anything else because I know I need help. But it takes 10 fucking books to explain to you that not all projects are commercial, and some commercial projects were a success that were funded on nothing. You are the one acting entitled, because you expect special treatment on every occasion. I said that there are projects with no funding and with potential and you are up in arms over this like the artist should be immediately paid, ignoring everyone else. If someone was interested in my game and wanted to write a story for it just because he loves my project that would be pretty nice, but unless people are really excited it's not gonna happen, and you treat these arguments like it happens all the time.

I regret taking the discussion this far, because the basic idea is that group efforts/hobby projects was that no one get paid, and teams where they are very organized and want to do something more professional, everyone deserves money. I would had volunteered making 3D modeling for minecraft when it picked up popularity, for rev share, because I am not stupid. I'd join any game that is gonna be successful right now too, also for the same reason. But it doesn't happen because the people making that game aren't stupid and they know rev share would make them lose too much money to others.

About rev share, it mostly doesn't work well at all, and I will never do it because most projects are just shit or I can think of something that I would like to do, and whenever I do that I'd rather pay someone for something specific and be done with it. But that doesn't mean that there are some projects that didn't succeed because of it or that it should never be done.

And don't fucking tell me 'wow you are really sensitive about this!' because you are being a passive aggressive cunt, you are trying to make a bigger deal out of it just so you appear calm and rational while I sit here shitting on you. It's not your business on where I work, my income, and how I spend my money, you aren't a fucking guru who thinks he can read me and give advice to how I can improve my life. You aren't that great guy, so take a step down, and stop acting like a baby when people willingly join a project for free. This is the last time when I say that everyone, not just the artist, deserves to be paid if they are asked to use their skill for a project. AND that sometimes two or three people form up a small team in which they

So maybe stop working for the guy making walking simulators and stop being so biter, it's obvious that you made a really stupid decision to join a shit project, it got unfinished, you got paid jack shit and you wasted your time. This is you right now. I won't talk about this anymore because it's just useless, I can detail all I want that some teams are knowingly formed to make something that probably won't generate money, and you'll be a passive aggressive know it all trying to read into my life and give advice on how to empty my pockets for everyone. So screw this, artists deserve money like anyone else, and if they wanna work for free for something with potential or always work for money it's their decision, not yours. I did look at the video that was posted, and the guy was right saying you should never work for free, but you took it a bit too far.

The last two posts have the orders of the paragraphs screwed up because of copy pasting (body too long), but you get the gist of it.

> actually reads all the walls of text.

Okay, here's something I noticed recently, as a producer/programmer type of person -- many artists are trying to get on the Patreon bandwagon to -- get this -- to be able to make their own projects!

How about that? That means that they only work commissions because they need the cash, they probably don't give a shit much about your project, only that they do a professional job on it since that's what they were trained for.

Now Patreon -- ah, look at this guy for example (not to dis him, I like him too for the record)

https://www.patreon.com/Kuvshinov_Ilya?ty=h

Who wouldn't want to just be able to doodle all day drawing whatever the hell he wants and still have that dosh flowing in? And then you post a picture and you immediately get thousands of fellating retweets. Ain't life grand? That's what artists want.

Now since they're getting all the money, then they will be able to hire programmers.

Cue for us to jack up our prices, it's only fair.

>>25447

Nice cherry picking.

Being a decent artist doesn't automatically mean you will make several grand on patreon. You either get really lucky or market the fuck out of yourself. There's few who manage this and they almost always pander to the lowest common denominator.

Besides, you're making it sound like drawing isn't hard work. Believe it or not, you run into problems and frustration much like coding.

See? This is the problem between artists and programmers.

I was reading the thread, and thought it was actually fine, then >>25335 brought up the "artists shouldn't work for free" and then everything ended up as a big argument, again.

I agree partially with >>25341 and the bigass wall of text, as far as amateur projects are concerned basically everyone works for "free". The coder who made the engine or the musicguy who made the music, they started working on the game without asking each other for money so I don't understand why the artist ALWAYS expect to get money to just join.

Like someone said earlier I'm not telling that artists are all the same, but each time I'm reading something like "I'll join this project only if they are worth my time, and for a fee", I can guess 90% of the time that it's an artist talking, and half the time the artist isn't even a professional.

Also, I should note that most of the time artists tell "beginner" programmers that they would never waste their time with someone that can only do basic stuff, but I'd like to turn that around.

Fair enough, but why in that case programmers are being shunned for not wanting to work with a "beginner" artist who can only do basic stuff?

Anyway again I know that some artists are different, just like that one artist who posted in the 4chan /agdg/ 1 or 2 days ago, but there's this whole acceptance about how artists are expected to join only for money which will always be the core of the argument.

>>25579

>Fair enough, but why in that case programmers are being shunned for not wanting to work with a "beginner" artist who can only do basic stuff?

People think programmers are making magic money and are able to pay everyone like it' nothing. And everyone ignores the artists that draw two furry pics per day for hundreds of green paper.

>>25579

>but there's this whole acceptance about how artists are expected to join only for money which will always be the core of the argument.

In professional fields it's the other way around, a lot of folks expect artists/designers to work for free because they are not taken seriously. You're just doodling a bit and having fun, right? That's why you chose that job, you're having fun so pay should come second, if at all and if we like what you've made. They just ignore the fact it can be stressful and time consuming work like any other field.

You'd be surprised how often this happens in businesses. Our teachers DRILLED into us to shove binding contracts on our clients should we do freelance work and risk getting fucked over. They've had it happen to them.

I completely agree that if you sign up to work on a game that has no budget or guarantee behind it you shouldn't expect anything, not even for your partner or team to be any good. You get what you sign up for and it may or may not work out. But some people do it for a living and they can't pay their bills by risking projects with strangers and no guaranteed pay. I don't know how freelancing is for other aspects, but that's what I know in terms of art. Obviously, there's also going to be assholes who expect pay even if they're shit.

I think all of this is what causes these arguments to keep popping up.

>>25583

>People think programmers are making magic money and are able to pay everyone like it' nothing.

>he thinks artists are making magic money

Two furry commissions will probably not get you a Benjamin unless you've been whoring yourself out for years to build a name and/or have a decent amount of skill. Like I said, it's an industry like any other and just knowing how to draw doesn't guarantee you money.

>>25601

>tldr I want more money than you

>>25601

>Lots of people want to have an artist on their team. There aren't enough artists of a desired quality level to fill that demand.

There's just about as many good and desirable programmers as there are good and desirable artists. The difference is as you said that you can immediately tell the level of quality from a piece of art, while it's much more difficult to determine how good the programmer is. The result is an illusion of "not enough artists for all the programmers", while in reality it's more like "no enough skilled artists for every procrastinator and beginner programmer who want their game to look good".

If you look for art quality that pars your programming/game design quality, I'm sure you'd have no problem finding an artist. But most people won't do that because it's so much easier to see how bad the art is.

>>25447

>Jack up our prices

shit code good art tends to beat good code shit art. think of the classics and their terrible code:

mario: input buffer overflows everywhere

pokemon: integer wrap bugs out the ass and broken regions and tiles.

sonic: broken collision detection

quake: movement and physics so broken that it becomes a gameplay element.

every game with npcs: exploitable npcs.

tetris (gb): infinite block climb for infinite drop score.

on the opposing side great code bad art:

dwarf fortress: indie gem that nobody understands. somehow it's really popular but I don't have a single friend that plays it. the game is so complex that the ascii representation just looks like random static. I haven't played it since it went 3d because fuck that.

others???

>>25748

You're hastly labeling random games as broken and "shit code" just because something in them isn't perfect. All those games were good enough to ship and they were shipped that way because you can't polish something indefinitely if want to ship it on time.

>dwarf fortress: indie gem that nobody understands. somehow it's really popular but I don't have a single friend that plays it. the game is so complex that the ascii representation just looks like random static. I haven't played it since it went 3d because fuck that.

DF is mostly maintained by a single person who isn't exactly a software engineer and each version was always plagued by bugs, with bugfixes introducing new bugs. It's code is probably worse than code of the games you've listed above. Also, Toady has been making thousands of dollars every month from donations for years, I don't think that qualifies for misunderstood.

>>25750

>hastily calling 'shit code'

input and integer overflows are fairly trivial to correct.

if you've seen sm64 rolling rocks parallel universe strats on youtube I want you to consider the spaghetti that would have to exist for so many references to location to exist but all of them to be a different data type: at best they're casting to a different type each function, at worst they're not using pointers or globals and duplicating storage.

and just because airstrafe is a feature in tribes and tf2 doesn't mean it wasn't a bug in quake.