No.39168
Is reality predetermined or do we have free will?
No.39173
>>39168
I remember reading about some twins that were separated at birth and were raised by different parents in different places. When they met for the first time as adults and shared their life experiences, they realised they had made pretty much the same choices, had the same tastes, married similar women, etc. So I want to believe that we have free will, but what we want seems to be determined by our genes. In the end it doesn't even matter though. Even if we can rationally explain that free will is an illusion, it doesn't make it feel any less real, and I imagine that trying to apply that notion to your life wouldn't work out very well for you.
No.39195
No.39203
>>39173
>So I want to believe that we have free will, but what we want seems to be determined by our genes.
Well than it sounds like we don't have free will if our actions are merely the results of our genes. I'm still not sure that tells the full story though. Lets assume there's infinite universes with infinite possibilities. Wouldn't that mean that within each individual universe that fate is predetermined with each universe offering up a different possibility? This is just a theory though and I'm not sure how valid it is but these things make good thought experiments.
No.39205
>>39168
Your free will is limited by your destiny.
Man is the porter of his fate, not master.
Life throws you challenges or opens various ways and you can either overcome/follow them, or give up.
No.39238
>>39168
>Is reality predetermined or do we have free will?
Major events/turns in life are predetermined, but you have free will in how exactly you are going to solve them.
No.39361
I don't think it matters. Lets say you have a reality with free will, and a time machine. Knowing what someone definitely will decide in some situation, you go back in time and watch it play out in real-time. Has that person lost their free will since from your perspective their next course of action is effectively 'predetermined'? I don't think there's a hard answer, I suspect it may be an informational-type construct based on what information you the conscious entity have access to. From God's perspective (i.e. an omniscient entity that can see the entirety of time from start to finish) I expect it probably doesn't look like we have free will, but I also suspect that's a deceptive way of looking at things. Free will probably doesn't mean you just make decisions at random (or something that looks like random), I think your actions may still be able to be predictable yet still have free will not be precluded. I like to think we're all transversing our 'own' multiverse and rapidly cycling between them. Quantum supposition still gives plenty of wiggle-room for free will, but in either case you don't have access to any of this information and therefore the question of free will is effectively meaningless.
No.39363
>>39168
The lower you IQ is, the less "free will" you have.
No.39418
It was predetermined up until 2012 when the First Creators/God/Demiurges were killed by Arae, but from that point on we've had free will.
No.39419
>>39195
>Is Option 1 correct, or is Option 2 correct?
>Yes
No.39423
>>39203
>Lets assume there's infinite universes with infinite possibilities. Wouldn't that mean that within each individual universe that fate is predetermined with each universe offering up a different possibility?
It's the same universe with different fractals. We shift between the fractals with the decisions we make in order to learn the lessons from different outcomes that occur differently based upon our astrology. Nevertheless, you can consciously shift fractals. With my current girlfriend, it wasn't meant to be, but I used qigong to change which fractal I was on; it was as if I was feeling grids change shape before everything went back to normal. Free will is there and every outcome is predetermined, the free will comes in which outcomes you need to experience (most often decided by - but not limited to - your intuition).
No.39425
>>39419
What's wrong with that approach?
Sure, our reality may be predetermined by choices made in the past, but only to a point. In the same way our future is predetermine it only gets to a point, and then something else must predetermine the next course of events. It is now up to us to predetermine the next course of events as the previous course of events are growing old.
No.39450
free will is by all technical means not functionally doable by us.
>>>/fringe/120571
No.39453
>>39173
That's just an expression of genetics informing things like IQ, industriousness and choice of mate. If one of the twins was abused as a child, or got into a serious accident, then the trajectory would change completely.
No.39470
>>39168
Entropy, or randomness, in the universe increases with every chemical reaction that happens. Needless to say, after trillions of years of chemical reactions, there's gotta be a lot of randomness in this universe right now. There are more and more possible outcomes for any given chemical reaction every nanosecond. Humans are like entropy factories, with millions of chemical reactions in our bodies every second.
It's been common throughout history to believe that God controls the world through randomness. To believe that whenever circumstances are such that multiple outcomes are possible without human interference, that God chooses the outcome that suits his designs best. The ancients would play games of chance such as casting lots, offering Him randomness in the hopes that He would turn it into an answer. Today Terry A Davis' TempleOS features a program based on random chance which is intended to give God a medium to speak with users.
It's possible, that if humans are part spirit - in other words if we have souls - that this spirit can manipulate the randomness that the body produces to produce the effect of free will. Of course, the choices you can make are limited by what your genes, neural pathways, and current hormonal levels allow to be possible, but within that frame there is true choice. And if there is no spiritual component of humans, then there is no free will, but there's also no predeterminism because everything is random to a certain extent especially where living things are concerned.
No.39471
What are you gonna do if there is no free will, huh?
No.39548
>>39470
>Entropy, or randomness, in the universe decreases with every chemical reaction that happens
Fixed.
No.39563
>>39470
humans or people or persons at least the real ones that aren't just a simulated soulless program that feels nothing do not have a spiritual element. they ARE the spiritual element, and have bodies, just like people have cars to drive.
also even though we are spiritual, we still do not have free will because we are not God.
No.39568
>>39548
t. doesn't know the second law of thermodynamics
>>39563
t. the eternal hindu
No.39613
Well if it' predetermined i can't be held accountable for how badly i fucked up in my life, so i think i'll run with that
No.39654
No.39797
Free will is the knowledge of one's behavioral patterns, genes, etc. and the ability to manipulate them. The art of flowing with change at will if you will. Otherwise, you're just gaming yourself. That's about as much as I have surmised in my experience.
No.39846
>>39168
Both. The course of your life is predetermined, but you have the free will to alter it, if you choose to do so, and can figure out how. Think of it as you being in a row-boat caught in a strong current, and that strong current is you kismet, karma, or whatever you want to name it. So your destiny is to eventually crash against some rocks further downstream, your boat will shatter, you will go under, and drown. If you do nothing, or do the wrong thing, this shall be your fate. On the other hand, if you man the oars (or the rudder), and do everything right (or enough right), then you will miss the rocks, your boat will not shatter, you will not go under and drown.
No.39900
>>39168
Both, now fuck off.
No.39925
>>39168
It's predetermined that we have free will, not even memeing.
No.39935
Is Orthodox Christianity the true redpill?
No.40254
All around us there are these tiny micro holes called wormholes. If you can open one, using a lot of energy, or happen to find one big enough for you to pass, and if you are brave and enter it, you will go to another part of space that could be millions light years away instantly. Ok, everybody knows that. This is common knowledge. But also, did you knew that you not only travel through space but through time? An example, If you pass wormhole on side A you could go, say 500 years in the future and if you enter through sibe b you will go 500 years in the past. So you can go to either past or future. Ok, but what is the correlation here? Well, if you can go to the future, that means that the future is already there right? If the future is already there that means you can't change it because it's already written, you passing through the wormhole was not your decision, was something that would happen anyway and nothing you do in the past or in the future will change any of them because you were already fated to do so because all is already written… Maktub.
No.40527
No.40768
Theoretically, yes, we do have free will, because humans do not have instincts (how they are defined). We can consciously defy our desires, what would not possible should we have instincts.
No.40789
its like this
theres the moment wich is everlasting
but in the moment people want to know "whats next" so we dream and make up futures. hten they become the moment
things are planed and they're as set as they can be. u can feel it.
No.40797
earth i flat cuz its half a shpere anon
No.41197
>>40768
This isn't true.
Think of it like a game of pool. Every ball is acting how it acts because the force you put into the strike on the white ball. It rebounds off other balls and the table and everything scatters. It looks like it's random craziness but in reality it's all just force and a reaction to that force.
If your instincts say "fuck that watermelon" but your personality has developed to be argumentative to your instincts then you will reject your instincts. The act of denying yourself something you want doesn't prove free will, it can just as easily prove you lack the free will and would always make that same choice.
Genetic make up + experience = decision being made
Having free will and a pre-destination doesn't conflict with each other if you understand the question being asked. It's not "do you have free will?" it's "if you have free will would you make a different decision?" and the answer is ultimately no. Genetics + experience will always lead you to exactly the same decision in that moment in time. It doesn't matter how many times you run a simulation of that exact second the same entity must make a decision and they will always make the same one.
No.41207
Is a flower predetermined to bloom?
The trick is, it's doing what it wants to do anyway.
Now it you were to cut the flower, that would go against its free will which is to bloom.
No.41222
>>41197
>you will reject your instincts.
If instincts can be rejected, they are not instincts. Instincts by definition can not be rejected. If there are no instincts, there is free will, but not everybody uses it. The reality can be changed, but only from the inside. This is a very good post indeed about how the reality can be changed:
>>40527
> https://www.likera.com/forum/mybb/Thread-General-hypnosis-discussion?pid=30436#pid30436
No.41223
>>41207
>Now it you were to cut the flower,
… your karma and the karma of the plant would change.
No.41228
>>41222
That posts too much of a fucking mess to read but the placebo effect it uses as an example is a bad one.
The placebo works by making your reality what you think it will be. The problem is it also works when you don't want it to be that. The placebo is controlled by your brain on a level below consciousness. As such your actual desire to want or not want something doesn't influence the placebo directly, if it did we'd have unlimited unaddictive pain killers that makes you super happy with every grain of salt on the planet.
Instincts aren't fixed things you cannot ignore. A dog can be trained to ignore it's instincts. It learns to sit for a reward instead of trying to immediately snatch it from your hand. It learns to sit and wait to pick up the reward until you tell it to.
I don't think you understand the terminology you're playing with here. You don't appear to even understand the brain in a jar problem we all have with these sort of discussions.
No.41231
>>41228
You cannot train a cat not to bury his crap. And all cats do that. This is what the instinct is.
There is no such human behaviour that is exhibited by all humans to the same stimulus, regardless the race, ethnicity or geographical location (the definition of an instinct).
>>41228
>It learns to sit for a reward instead of trying to immediately snatch it from your hand.
There is no such dog instinct, sorry. But scent-marking their territory is.
>>41228
>That posts too much of a fucking mess to read but the placebo effect it uses as an example is a bad one.
I'm afraid that you either did not understand what the post is about, or misunderstood it.
No.41232
>>41228
>The placebo is controlled by your brain on a level below consciousness.
You need to know and understand what the "placebo" is about (without knowing that it's a placebo), and this is a conscious effort.
No.41234
>>41232
>You need to know and understand what the "placebo" is about
… in order it to work …
No.41237
>>41228
>Instincts aren't fixed things you cannot ignore.
Instinct is "a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason".
No.41241
Sorry didn't read through the thread.
Both. It's like quantum duality, or schrodinger's cat, or both the velocity and location of an electron. Reality's flow and our reactions to the environment are unquantifiable at this time, and I believe once we can quantify it, it will be both predetermined and we will have free will. Like light being both a particle and a wave.
No.41242
>>41241
> it will be both predetermined and we will have free will.
Yes, this is how it is.
No.41267
No.41271
No.41321
No.41350
>>39168
We all have the same destiny. Death. That is something that none of us can avoid. So the end is predetermined, but you have to reach the end first. I think you can alter your life in any way that you want, but you cannot avoid death, which is predetermined.
No.41444
>>39203
Think like nested code, but different realities due to choices. If everything is possible and does happen in it's own reality then in that way everything is predetermined, but only because every of infinite possibilities is happening at the same time.
>we aren't in a simulation
>>39423 pic related
Nailed it, I can't speak for the tai chi but the nested idea is like the fractals, and each parent has its own children of possibilities. If you personalize it, there is other versions of you who did the opposite of your choices, and each fractal and so on. So those original fractals of a long ago choice made even crazier different paths all thogether.