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Strategy Games Anonymous 12/05/15 (Sat) 02:00:44 No.4254

What are people's favourite strategy (and/or RTS) games?

Any that have something particularly special, gameplay-wise, about them?

Any ones you would recommend?

I've found sometimes they can be a bit formulaic in their mechanics with nothing new to bring (but that's usually modern ones - maybe ones made on the cheaper side - I haven't played many older ones).

The one I usually go back to is Dune 2000.

____________________________

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Anonymous 12/05/15 (Sat) 02:05:48 No.4255

I should say when I talk about the formulaic games, I mean RTSs, not GSGs and other strategy games. I wouldn't know about their progression.

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Anonymous 12/05/15 (Sat) 14:07:23 No.4257

Command and conquer, warhammer 40k, age of empires, etc.

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Anonymous 12/05/15 (Sat) 23:49:50 No.4258

>>4254

It's complicated. No such thing as a favourite RTS for me any more.

TA has the best visuals design, tech trees, general map design, balancing and so on, in general. But it has some rather prominent issues.

SupCom (I know, not /vr/, but the question was very broad and I'm mostly going to talk about oldies), while not strictly TA's successor or reboot, is as close as there is while being a successful game (that is, being highly regarded by RTS fans in general and TA fans in particular). But, of course, it does have some problems of its own.

I also like C&C3 for being both still roughly in the same setting as its predecessors in the series and it being designed to provide quick skirmishes so that you don't have to free up at least 1-1.5 hours in advance for a LAN match.

StarCraft was also fun for both singleplayer and MP.

The already mentioned Dawn of War is good too but it is around halfway between a proper RTS and an RTT.

Earth 2150 is also one of my all-time favourites. Since it has the best merit vs. flaw ratio I should probably call it the favourite, but it is not very well suited for MP which is a significant blow to almost any game's replayability.

I can probably go on but it has already turned into a "best strategy games eva" list and I didn't even get to TBS.

Although Dune II probably deserves a special mention, beside even it being my first and one of the most loved for many of its qualities.

It didn't have the rock-paper-scissors cornerstone I've become almost allergic to over the years and implemented this rather well.

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Anonymous 12/05/15 (Sat) 23:52:43 No.4259

>>4258

>TA has the best visuals design

Completely blanked out on this one: I meant among all the similar games, including SupCom. The latter is naturally doing better in the visuals department, in general, but structure and unit design still somehow feels bleak.

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 00:24:00 No.4260

>>4257

>AOE

I never did get around to playing those. I had Age of Mythology instead.

Does anybody know of any major differences between AOE II and the HD version? I know they're still releasing expansion packs for the latter.

>warhammer 40k

Which one? Dawn of War? Are the older ones generally good?

>>4258

Thanks for the good recommendations, man.

>No such thing as a favourite RTS for me any more.

Always a good feeling.

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 02:34:00 No.4261

>>4260

Oh, I can recommend more. But then it would reduce the possible avenues of discussion on this already slow board so I'd rather other anons do, for nwo.

The old classics are good in every way except controls and sometimes UI. We've become spoilt with modern day advances in those areas, years ago we didn't think we're putting up with imperfections as we did not know any better.

One thing worth mentioning anyway: early C&C and Red Alert series games have been updated to run better on modern OSes and released for free few years ago. IIRC that includes Tiberian Dawn and its expansions and Red Alert and its expansions, as well as Tiberian Sun and Firestorm. Unlike Warcraft and Warcraft II, they are more playable today due to having no unit limit on bandboxing selection and a bit less attention-taxing unit AI (i.e. you don't have to micro units as much).

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 08:22:18 No.4264

File: 1449476539240.jpg (59.21 KB, 399x399, 1:1, 1290406509286.jpg)

>>4261

>recommending and talking about more games would reduce discussion

You 'igh, bruv? If anything, more people are likely to come along and tell you that your favourite game is perfectly fine.

>>4258

>Earth 2150

If it was so good, why does it make for a shitty multiplayer experience? In my mind, that suggests there are one or two goodstuff builds that everyone races for, forgoing everything else. And that sounds like a pretty shitty experience overall, regardless of who you're playing with.

>Dune II

Given that so many games do utilise "Unit X counters Unit Y, Y counters Z, etc.", I'm finding it tough to imagine a different system. Care to go into a bit of detail about its combat?

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 09:14:27 No.4265

File: 1449479667714.jpg (111.02 KB, 1000x750, 4:3, earth2150_screen8.jpg)

>>4264

>You 'igh, bruv? If anything, more people are likely to come along and tell you that your favourite game is perfectly fine.

Because in cases like this one I cannot keep my spaghettis in my pockets and proceed to list most or all of them. And, considering I like the genre very much and have played a lot of games, I list at least 90% of the best ones.

But that doesn't mean I won't do that anyway, eventually. If there is lack of other posters ITT.

>If it was so good, why does it make for a shitty multiplayer experience?

Complexity.

You research tech, assemble unit designs in the editor (even though it is a rather simple one, it requires time and attention), manage resourcing operations, should keep tabs on possible attack routes over land, air and seas and upgrade structures with turrets and shields accordingly, manage any ongoing battles and plan new engagements. All in real time. It is taxing.

In SP you can pause at any time and issue one order to any unit which will be executed once you unpause. But then we get to one of the most interesting aspects of the game: that order can be a macro. Because you can record and execute macros in that game. Also you can order units and structures to turn headlights on and off (or leave them at "manage automatically", which is the default), specify at which percentage of HP units should retreat to base, specify at which percentage of ammo they should call home for a transport that would deliver them ammo and so on.

>In my mind, that suggests there are one or two goodstuff builds that everyone races for, forgoing everything else.

Oh no, not even close. Whichever tech path you take you can win. The question is how well you can use the tech given particular conditions. Conditions like available attack paths, resource deposit locations, land to water ratio and distribution of both, tech choices of your enemy, unit composition of your enemy, your skill at strategic planning in no particular order.

>And that sounds like a pretty shitty experience overall, regardless of who you're playing with.

It would be, indeed. But, thankfully, it is not about this game.

>Given that so many games do utilise "Unit X counters Unit Y, Y counters Z, etc.", I'm finding it tough to imagine a different system. Care to go into a bit of detail about its combat?

Will do in a second post as this one is already a monstrosity.

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 09:42:40 No.4266

File: 1449481360818.jpg (63.01 KB, 615x384, 205:128, dune-2-1992.jpg)

>>4264

>Given that so many games do utilise "Unit X counters Unit Y, Y counters Z, etc.", I'm finding it tough to imagine a different system. Care to go into a bit of detail about its combat?

I was talking more about "unit type X has weapon type Y which is only efficient against unit type Z".

In Dune II you get pretty much the simplest system there can be: flat HP values and flat damage values for all units. The differences are as follows:

1. Infantry.

1.1. Can traverse special kind of terrain (rocks) at a slower speed than normal, buildable land and also slower than the most abundant sand;

1.2. Can damage and, eventually, capture enemy structures by going "into" them, which destroys the unit.

1.3. Comes either in singular units or squads of three that behave as one unit and lose firepower once the squad takes enough damage (soldiers in a squad visibly died - 1992! this is also the reason introduction of squads in C&C3 didn't make me apoplectic). This isn't very much noticeable for regular infantry but much more for Troopers.

2. Light vehicles.

2.1. Deal well enough not only with infantry, as is the norm today, but with anything - given enough numbers and/or time.

2.2. Don't have any kinds of penalties, they simply have relatively modest HP and damage.

2.3. Fast and agile, especially Ordos Trikes, which are faster than other Trikes but also weaker and flimsier.

3. Tanks are what you'd expect them to be.

4. Long-range units.

4.1 Rocket launchers behave like you'd expect them to in general. May be a bit tougher than is the norm today.

For reference, they one-shot regular soldiers with full HP. But you can still take down one with a couple of squads as it has poor speed, long reload intervals and only two missile slots.

4.2. Deviators are a variation of RL's specific to House Ordos with warheads containing some kind of neural gas that makes affected units temporarily fight for you.

4.3. Sonic Tanks are exclusive to House Atreides. They are the only exception to the rule - they barely do any damage to each other. Anything else caught in the long (almost as long as RL's range) path their sonic waves travel suffer greatly.

A bunch of those can lay waste to a small base in just a couple of salvoes.

You also have two defensive structures: a turret with a cannon that is the same as that of a regular tank or a rocket turret that is almost the same as a rocket launcher. I think rocket turrets have slightly smaller range as RLs and Sonics can bombard them with impunity at maximum distance.

While the system is very simple, it works. You can counter any type of units with any other types of units. You can build several super heavy Devastators, unique unit of House Harkonnen, and watch them crawl at glacial pace towards their destination, or you can produce large quantities of Trooper Squads or Trikes or something else and get Carpal's sending them against the enemy.

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 12:02:40 No.4267

File: 1449489760723.jpg (46.95 KB, 480x360, 4:3, step one, try not to cry.jpg)

>>4265

>assemble unit designs in the editor (even though it is a rather simple one, it requires time and attention)

Comparable to SMAC's unit construction, then?

>upgrade structures with turrets and shields accordingly

This bit sounds wonderful. I love trying to funnel enemies with walls and raining death on them from above - the more options to tack onto that, the better. The fact that you have to take air units into account makes this seem very cool indeed.

>Also you can order units and structures to turn headlights on and off, specify at which percentage of HP units should retreat to base, specify at which percentage of ammo they should call home for a transport that would deliver them ammo and so on.

TECHNOLOGY!

I think when this came along back in the day, I wasn't a huge fan of the genre. Add to that how every fucking release was being touted as a C&C

or Starcraft killer, and I let a lot slide past me. To the point, actually, where AOE2 is probably the only thing I've put a decent amount of time into and I'm still utterly fucking rubbish at it.

But this game sounds fucking grand and I'll give it a shot as soon as I get some time, Real Time Spaghetti anon.

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Anonymous 12/07/15 (Mon) 13:03:12 No.4269

>>4267

>SMAC

Didn't play it and can't remember very well the only time I've heard the game described.

You get a chassis and a "turret", with the latter being anything from just a machinegun glued right to a large flat top of a tracked chassis to actual tank turrets. Or you can put one of the few non-weapon modules there as well.

Some chassis have more than one mount point.

The unit can also has a shield that will protect from energy-based weapons until depleted, after which it will start regenerating.

All these factor into resulting unit's cost.

On a somewhat related note, units and structures have not only HP meters but also one for temperature and "electronics" each. Energy-based weapons heat up targets and mess up with its electronics. Although most of them will destroy their target before it can overheat or get disabled, some specialised weapons are designed to inflict only one of those kinds of damage.

Units and structures that overheat blow up. If their electronics are permanently fried they stay disabled until an allied repair unit comes to fix them or an enemy repair unit comes to capture them. They can still be fired upon normally, of course.

>This bit sounds wonderful. I love trying to funnel enemies with walls and raining death on them from above - the more options to tack onto that, the better. The fact that you have to take air units into account makes this seem very cool indeed.

You have three types of dedicated defensive structures that, starting from the second, vary substantially between factions. Also most regular structures (like factories, mines, refineries etc.) have turret mount points and all structures can be equipped with shields.

Turtling up is only viable if you can control enough resources of the map at the same time. But that would mean the enemy would just bring artillery or some kind of long-range units to dismantle you from safe distance.

>the more options to tack onto that, the better

You have plenty. You can have your run-of-the-mill tank platoons and attack helicopters/aircraft of some description, or quick and agile platforms fitted with twin-linked rocket launchers with tracking projectiles, or heavy gunships with heavy plasma guns / heavy helicopters with nuclear bombs / hovercraft with heavy sonic pulsars (depending on the faction), or artillery turrets mounted on an amphibious chassis, or just plain old strategic weapons, with some of it even being available in the form of mobile short-range ballistic missiles with nuke warheads.

Eurasian Dynasty is the "old school" faction with plenty of tech inspired by modern day stuff, United Civilised States is all about robots and Lunar Corporation is the most high-tech on average while also fielding the largest percentage of fragile units.

>AOE2

I remember AoE well and remember the sequel being all around better but for some reason I've played less of it. Probably due to it being too demanding for my hardware at the time.

>and I'm still utterly fucking rubbish at it

I was bad at RTS until I've started playing with humans a lot. Playing against a human opponent is the best kind of practice, of course.

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Anonymous 12/09/15 (Wed) 09:54:42 No.4270

File: 1449654882945.jpg (32.52 KB, 272x340, 4:5, yes, this is the only pict….jpg)

>>4269

>Didn't play it and can't remember very well the only time I've heard the game described.

I was a huge faget and almost always left it automated in SMAC, but what you're describing sounds pretty close.

Were the expansion packs and the sequel of E2150 any good?

>AOE2

It's surprising to find someone with so much experience with the genre, but not one of its cornerstones. I've always thoroughly enjoyed it because of the unit variety and balance. Give it a bash some time, and get back to us with your impressions.

On that note: do you still often play old RTS games? Or is it really interlinked to how much of a player-base it retains, so you find yourself switching to newer stuff?

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Anonymous 12/09/15 (Wed) 14:51:30 No.4271

>>4270

>Were the expansion packs and the sequel of E2150 any good?

The Moon Project is a definite improvement. More tech, fixed bugs and the like. And whole new campaign, of course.

Lost Souls is a bit different. Its campaign is an uphill battle. I don't remember whether they added anything with regards to tech. I have played the previous two far more.

2160 is better in some ways and worse in others.

The good things:

- they introduced a fourth faction which is okay;

- added some cool things like ED's defensive structures becoming walls with rails on top, so as long as all of your walls are connected turrets can change positions;

- graphics upgrade - not something I care much about but the art style is consistent and not ugly and all things look less like potatoes to new gamers so it keeps the company/series/legacy in general afloat for longer;

- mild campaign spoiler: there is a cliffhanger i.e. they were at least hoping to make a sequel/an expansion.

Bad things:

- unit pathfinding got worse;

- IIRC they decreased the amount of turret mount points on structures, but I played it a long time ago;

- campaign is worse, although not by much;

- main menu song/main theme;

- music in general less impressive comparing to 2150, but if you've never played the previous game(s) you'd think it is okay or even good.

Neither or both:

- some new tech was added, some good old things have disappeared (although we space nao, guess that's why);

- probably in attempt to make cheaper/lower tech units more viable they introduced damage type resistances that are not always available at higher tiers, but flat HP and firepower boost still makes more advanced units better in the sequel - they were fixing a problem that wasn't there;

- units now have engines but you still go for the latest MK of those anyway;

- the fourth faction has lots of great stuff but it isn't a closed cycle in more than one way (you'll understand after playing, don't want to spoil);

- they added infantry but it is pretty much useless.

>It's surprising to find someone with so much experience with the genre, but not one of its cornerstones.

AoE1 was good enough to hook me up and then later I spent unhealthy amounts of time in Empire Earth, if that's any excuse.

>Give it a bash some time, and get back to us with your impressions.

Sounds like a plan. I will.

>On that note: do you still often play old RTS games? Or is it really interlinked to how much of a player-base it retains, so you find yourself switching to newer stuff?

I periodically replay the good old stuff and try new games from time to time. The last two were TibSun and Emperor - Battle for Dune.

Meridian was somewhat a let down but I am to blame myself for hoping for great things (great, not decent) from a one-man project. I need to boot up Steam and check how it progressed though, how knows.

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Anonymous 12/09/15 (Wed) 15:00:06 No.4272

File: 1449673206597.jpg (130.75 KB, 1024x768, 4:3, 3443535351.jpg)

>>4271

>how knows

How to know how my brain went there from "who", indeed. Also I forget to post pics all the time.

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Anonymous 12/10/15 (Thu) 08:40:15 No.4274

File: 1449736816103.jpg (200.75 KB, 800x600, 4:3, doof doof doof.jpg)

This thread's also made me want to play Settlers 3, because I loved the doofy aesthetics back in the day, but only got around to playing the demo…

>>4271

> - unit pathfinding got worse;

Was it pretty tight in 2150? A lot of RTS games depend on this aspect - it's one of those things where if it goes right, nobody notices; but if it fucks up, then everyone dogpiles the devs. I can imagine calculating the Z-axis would've complicated things royally, but I'm surprised to hear they only fluffed it in the third game…

>Empire Earth

A buddy of mine gave me a copy a while back, but I've been such a lazy bitch with regards to learning a "new" (read: not AoE2) system that I haven't really given it a proper bash. I guess we've both got our respective tasks for the coming weeks.

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Anonymous 12/11/15 (Fri) 17:19:25 No.4276

File: 1449854367811.jpg (236.75 KB, 800x450, 16:9, Earth_2150_Trilogy_6.jpg)

>>4274

>Was it pretty tight in 2150?

It had a few nuances that could irritate a lot before you understood how, why and when they happen.

In 2150 you can play with terrain. There are special units for two factions (the remaining one got it too in The Moon Project) that can try to make a "tile" lower, higher or flatten it. You can also build bridges and tunnels. To access the tunnel layer you'd have to construct a tunnel entrance at first, of course.

So, if a certain tile or several adjacent tiles were in a particular alignment which is not readily apparent to an inexperienced player, it could look like pathfinding is behaving strange.

>I can imagine calculating the Z-axis would've complicated things royally, but I'm surprised to hear they only fluffed it in the third game…

What do you mean? They completely removed terrain manipulations and tunnel layer in 2160. The game isn't much worse for it as both of those features were seldom used. You had tunnel access almost every mission but an entrance was present almost every time and, unless the mission goal specifically had to do something with tunnels, there was nothing that important in them.

>A buddy of mine gave me a copy a while back, but I've been such a lazy bitch with regards to learning a "new" (read: not AoE2) system that I haven't really given it a proper bash.

>learning a "new" (read: not AoE2) system

Until you get firearms and cannons it is pretty much the same, from what I remember of AoE2. You can even limit how far a game in EE can progress, tech-wise.

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Anonymous 12/12/15 (Sat) 06:23:06 No.4277

>>4276

>What do you mean?

I mean pathfinding is tricky at the best of times; pathfinding in 3D must be a right bastard.

Tunnels sound like they'd have limited applications, but I really like the idea of bridges. The idea of a river or gorge having multiple points of access, rather than just one spot you can choke enemies in? Rad.

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Anonymous 12/20/15 (Sun) 22:47:37 No.4290

File: 1450651657576.jpg (405.63 KB, 640x480, 4:3, ED_RocketCar.jpg)

>>4277

>I mean pathfinding is tricky at the best of times; pathfinding in 3D must be a right bastard.

Eh, it is more like 2.5D-ish as far as most units are concerned.

And flying units only need to stay a certain distance above surface.

>Tunnels sound like they'd have limited applications

Like digging all the way below an enemy's Maginot Line and emerging right in the soft, defenceless heart of his base, full of research centers and power plants?

He'd have to fail to notice the dot of the tunnel being constructed on minimap, of course, but that's not as improbable as it may sound if he is properly occupied on several fronts. Especially if you've recently started a full on assault on his main resourcing operation.

>but I really like the idea of bridges. The idea of a river or gorge having multiple points of access, rather than just one spot you can choke enemies in? Rad.

And they are perfectly vulnerable to every kind of ordnance so they can (and often do) become death traps.

Have been away for like a week and the site seem to be lagging more than usual. Did they finally started to nextify the poor Infinity?

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Anonymous 12/21/15 (Mon) 09:04:41 No.4291

>>4290

>He'd have to fail to notice the dot of the tunnel being constructed on minimap, of course

This was my primary concern with it, yeah. But if someone experienced with the game says it's a legit tactic, then I'm on board.

>Have been away for like a week and the site seem to be lagging more than usual. Did they finally started to nextify the poor Infinity?

Not sure how you missed the stuff under the banner there. We're here forever, probably.

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Anonymous 12/21/15 (Mon) 20:44:06 No.4292

File: 1450730647082.jpg (435.25 KB, 640x480, 4:3, ED_Helicopter.jpg)

>>4291

>This was my primary concern with it, yeah. But if someone experienced with the game says it's a legit tactic, then I'm on board.

Well if it was a sure-fire way it would be overpowered, you know. You can use it with more subtlety - like digging near the already mentioned main resourcing operation but definitely out of vision or radar range to get yourself a second avenue of attack, for example.

This is also complicated by the tunnelling process itself being rather slow. So, unless the already present tunnel system (which every campaign map has, not so sure about most skirmish maps) goes far enough, any strategy involving tunnels will require some time and attention.

>Not sure how you missed the stuff under the banner there. We're here forever, probably.

There was a line of text about something regarding Next there for several months so I learned to ignore it somehow I guess.

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Anonymous 12/22/15 (Tue) 09:16:43 No.4294

>>4292

>Well if it was a sure-fire way it would be overpowered, you know.

Oh, definitely. It's just that my initial assumption would be that it's something that wouldn't work against experienced players, even in the heat of battle. But I suppose that it all boils down to more things you have to keep track of:

>shit, he's gathering X resource, I better keep an eye on it

>shit, he's amassing an army in that sector, I better keep an eye on it

>There was a line of text about something regarding Next there for several months so I learned to ignore it somehow I guess.

I wonder if scrubbing the actual reference to Infinity and just saying "failed migration" would've drawn more people's attention…

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Anonymous 12/22/15 (Tue) 12:10:35 No.4295

File: 1450786235397.jpg (248.05 KB, 640x480, 4:3, ED_Tank.jpg)

>>4294

>Oh, definitely. It's just that my initial assumption would be that it's something that wouldn't work against experienced players, even in the heat of battle.

It's the same as in every strategy game: it takes a player of comparable abilities to pose a challenge to anyone. Someone noticeably less familiar with a particular game or not as good with strategies in general won't even be able to flood his opponent with tanks or their equivalent.

>I wonder if scrubbing the actual reference to Infinity and just saying "failed migration" would've drawn more people's attention…

Definitely not in my case. I've grew so accustomed to a line of text being there that it would take something of a significantly different length or something taking more than one line to draw my attention.

Really ought to re-install and make some screenshots for a change. It just stopped looking visually impressive since forever and wasn't a popular game to begin with, so I never bothered.

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