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eef7c9 No.16197373
What happen to the real-time strategy genre?
I always like the idea of making and commanding armies. That's still a thing people like, right?
Command & Conquer, Total Annihilation and Starcraft were my faves.
eef7c9 No.16197520
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
One more to get the hang of it.
Air superiority!
20b57a No.16197524
RTS is still more active than a lot other genres.
423105 No.16197668
>>16197373
Lot's of things happened to RTS
>Things are looking good for RTS at the start of the millennium with RA2, War3, Dawn of War etc
>Starcraft 2 is on its way, it's going to be the greatest RTS ever
>World of Warcraft comes out and makes so much money Warcraft 4 is dead forever
>Consoles are making mad bank, bunch of RTS games try to make the jump and preform poorly
>This includes sequels to several popular games like SupCom2
>Starcraft 2 comes out and isn't the greatest game ever
>It tries really hard to push the esports meme but is really mediocre and never really recovers
>MOBAs suddenly come to the forefront with their new radical free2play model of gouging customers money for cosmetics and champions
>RTS no longer relevant
>Across about 10 years Dawn of War 2, Supcom 2, RA3, C&C 4, Age of Empires 3 are all released disappointing RTS fans
>Since juggernauts of the genre are failing, indie has no chance
>Big projects like Grey Goo and Planetary Annhilation seal the lid on the coffin
>Developers move onto much easier to play RTT
>You have squads instead of armies and you often have a limit on how many you are allowed to have
>Research and tech trees are replaced with Tier 1/2/3
>Air and navy dead. With no air and navy, transport is unnecessary
>Games revolve entirely around fighting for specific points of the map
>You will never again get to build an impenetrable fortress with walls and towers
>You will never again lead a giant army and slam it against your opponents giant army.
>You will never again fuck around in the map editor making ridiculous scenarios
>You will never again fuck around with cheats
>You will never again set the map to smallest size with maximum opponents for total anarchy
78b001 No.16197686
>>16197373
>What happen to the real-time strategy genre?
Multiplayer isn't fun because lack of comeback mechanics. You built lumber camp one tile too far at 1st min? Gg no re noob try lego lmao. This inevitably leads to metafagging, which is the primeval cancer that killed assfaggots, which thanks to today's connectivity will be present even at the lowest tiers of the rating.
>lmao multiplayer
SP is glorified botmatches simulating the real deal. Some devs tried having fun with it and make it more like a specific scenario training, like Stronghold, but the campaign is there just to introduce you the units and give you a few hours of story.
d32e12 No.16197695
>>16197668
You mean Dawn of War 3.
4ce1a4 No.16197696
Coh2 and dawn of war 3 was the last chance.
But even those were turned into mobashit style games that you have to pay for.
E-sports is seriously cancer
But at least there’s that new ww1 Mecha rts coming soon. Hopeful that it doesn’t somehow decide to follow the mobatrash route
aff1b0 No.16197698
>>16197668
>easier to play RTT
Fuck you.
747454 No.16197704
>>16197668
>>16197698
What is a good singleplayer RTT to play?
eef7c9 No.16197712
>>16197668
>Big projects like Grey Goo and Planetary Annhilation seal the lid on the coffin
How did this seal the lid on the coffin? Did they fail to make bank?
a375fd No.16197719
>>16197712
Two things:
a. They were both creatively regressive cash-grabs that ultimately represented a step back for game design.
b. They both flopped.
7a1dda No.16197720
>>16197704
commandos, despardos, shadow tactics.
aff1b0 No.16197731
>>16197704
Blitzkrieg is fairly popular and has a shitload of mods. East Europeans are especially obsessed with it and there's a huge mod for it called GZM for it that adds a lot of new weapons, maps, re-balances things for more realism etc.
The Blitzkrieg engine was also use to make Cuban Missile Crisis, a game set in the 1960s after the Cold War went hot. It features elements of base and unit building on the overworld map, somewhat similarly to Total War.
Then there's MechCommader 1 and 2, Ground Control and the expansion (avoid the sequel), Syrian Warfare, Men of War (Soldiers and Faces of War are the prequels), Soldiers of Anarchy, Original War, Theatre of War, Jagged Alliance: Back in Action (with the Realistic Rebalancing Mod) and what >>16197720 mentioned.
98bfed No.16197745
>Earth 2150 is released at June 21, 2000
>After almost over 2 decades there is still no new RTS game that comes close to Earth 2150 feature set with home base feature
>Newer games also doesn't provide any sort of Mod SDK for even more content
>Instead they try to nickle and dime the customer in every way possible and custom content would block that
140168 No.16197746
>current year
>still liking gook clickers
aff1b0 No.16197749
>>16197745
Didn't Warzone 2100 feature a home base too? Now that I think about it, no game has come close to Warzone 2100 either.
98bfed No.16197761
>>16197749
Yes but its limited to campaign only and I am not sure if the open source ports lets you make a custom campaign too or something.
eef7c9 No.16197767
Just wanna manufacture & command an army of tanks….
565015 No.16197770
>>16197373
>What happen to the real-time strategy genre?
ASSFAGGOT's.
0852b9 No.16197792
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16197668
>>16197719
Grey Goo was tragic in its own way in the sense that it felt like it really could have been good if they had simply spent more time polishing it and released it with the shroud faction included. They never did fix how laggy and buggy the shroud were or how the AI for certain factions was either brilliant or downright retarded despite difficulty settings.
28b4e0 No.16197812
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Here is a theory I have. There were a bunch of different RTS games in the 2000's, the genre therefore wasn't really dead during that time. However, I feel that RTS games have a harder time catching people's attention because they are generally less bombastic, which is in part related to the camera and overall way the game is controlled.
That coupled with a lot of games either not doing anything new (like being generic Generals clones) or failing to show their innovations lead to people not being interested in them and poorer sales.
Also on another note. Is the RTS genre really dead or are the sales only bad when compared to the mainstream games which appeal more to the normalfag crowd?
3a323d No.16197818
>>16197686
Tell me about a comeback mechanic that isn't simply a reward for being a shit player.
d4408e No.16197826
how would even a comeback mechanic look like in an rts? getting free units when you capture and hold some sort of camp or something?
423105 No.16197885
>>16197695
Dawn of War 2, as it was not an RTS anymore.
Dawn of War 2 makes a fun hack'n'slash style RPG, especially with a friend. And it can make a good competitive game. But it took the foundation of Dawn of War and stripped away a lot of elements.
4a51a0 No.16197887
>>16197818
>>16197826
Stealing resources based on enemy wealth maybe?
088bc6 No.16197929
>>16197826
>>16197887
A population cap is a form of comeback mechanic. It limits a better player from snowballing.
CoH2 also has unit upkeep, whereby the more units you have the less resource income you get.
cc0991 No.16197931
>>16197373
RTS basically imploded.
It was killed by pro scene elitism and cancerous fanbases who brutalized and shooed away new players at every chance they got. This, combined with massive trainwrecks such as Starcraft 2 and C&C 4 and the lack of interest in general for RTS when the 2010's came around effectively killed the genre.
Unlike what most people think, ASSFAGGOTS did not cannibalize RTS. The subgenre derived from RTS as an alternative because the latter is impenetrable to new players on all fronts and newcomers couldn't be assed to be matched with and destroyed by seasoned veterans, and get shittalked on top of it. You can thank esports for that. If anything, ASSFAGGOTS was the young child RTS sent away to escape the onslaught. Do remember that DotA showed up in 2003, when RTS was still going strong, and coexisted with it for many years.
423105 No.16197939
>>16197931
I always felt ASSFAGGOTS were more like Diablo, especially after League came out with its limited control scheme. A downgraded Diablo, mind you.
cc0991 No.16197947
>>16197939
DotA was originally a mod for Warcraft 3. ASSFAGGOTs only really rose to prominence around 2009-2010, coincidentally around the same time RTS was dying out due to hiatuses and bad games coming out.
2b875a No.16197949
>>16197373
There was already a rts thread, you nigger.
2b875a No.16197952
>>16197704
Dawn of war 2, obviously.
cc0991 No.16197955
>>16197704
World In Conflict and Shadow Tactics.
cc63e6 No.16198791
>>16197947
ASSFAGGOTS were supremely popular in my country when i was introduced to them in 2007-8. Basically in any country with a net cafe culture, the cafe's were almost entirely swamped by assfaggots, it was almost the only thing you would see people play as you walked in.
c53d39 No.16198956
>>16197704
Graviteam Tactics, Combat Mission, Close Combat, Command Ops 2
aa5c7f No.16199108
>>16198791
gook or slav country?
4d27c2 No.16199128
>>16197373
Blame the gooks.
423105 No.16199560
>>16197947
Yeah, sure, Dota came from Warcraft 3, but the style of play is more reminiscent of action RPG's. The jump from RTS is much greater. World Edit just enabled you to make it, while Diablo had no such editor.
ASSFAGGOTS play nothing like RTS, but play very similar to ARPG's.
f2d141 No.16199738
>>16197373
I still think that the main issue was that most newer RTS tried to get their hands on imaginary e-sports shekels.
Because of that they put most of their effort into the multiplayer and neglected single player campaigns.
Turns out that most people didn't enjoy mindlessly repeating the same steps over and over again to train their muscle memory in order to become professional gookclick players.
RTS should have kept focusing on single-player like almost all of the great RTS games of the past have, build interest that way and if the mechanics are great the multiplayer scene will naturally develop.
6a8875 No.16199784
>>16197373
> real-time strategy genre?
First the is no such genre. Sucj name is mistake. These games are sub-faction of action RPG. Properly made action RPG are doing fine. See LoL and DoTa.
6a8875 No.16199816
>>16199560
They are all ARPG's. Only so called "RTS" designers fro some obscure reason thought that it would be a good idea to let player control dozens heroes at once. Of course idea flopped. Though in the beginning of 2000 it had many cash grab resales due to easiness of making such games. Like later in 2008 everyone started doing 3D FPS/TPS.
525f0e No.16199825
cc0991 No.16200029
>>16199825
Don't pretend it's not true. Speak against it and you'll prove my point.
aa5c7f No.16200324
>>16199738
They saw e-sports as the next big thing, and that was more than 10 years ago. It didn't help the RTS genre grow, SC2 had some moments of fame but it already is on life support. It boggles my mind how they remastered SCBW and even hyped it beyond fucking oblivion with live action trailers in gookland.
Nothing came out of this e-sports kikery, no big shekels, no mainstream fame, "professional gamers" still largely considered failed people by the society, and the RTS evolution has tanked really bad. There are few rather small indies that dare to experiment and bring new meta and gameplay elements to the table, but all in all it's been worse than the yearly COD/ASSCREED rehash.
>>16199784
>>16199816
Besides being a complete waste of time, you and ASSFAGGOTS have another thing in common, you're bastards that nobody asked for.
66f63e No.16200353
>>16199825
He's right though. Trash fires like RA3, SC2 and C&C4 were product of the esports cancer perpetrated by the hardcore crowd who sucked up to gooks clicking on a livestream. RTS became niche as fuck past '99 and remain so to this day, it wasn't any sort of normalfaggery mainstream occurrence that killed it.
25ec2d No.16200568
>>16197668
>>16197931
>>16200353
>C&C4
Originally it was design to be a shitty asian F2P P2W grindy game but it was bought by EA and they forced it to become a C&C game. That's why it has zero connection to any C&C game as it just had its assets changed near release.
b751ed No.16201943
>>16200568
A bad rts banking on the C&C name to sell. That's evul, man.
Had a Taiwan restaurant refuse to sell me a shallot pancake cos it wasn't ready. Recommend something similar instead. Already better than EA.
49d731 No.16201978
>RTS
Havent played any RTS games in years, what happened? Last RTS game I played was company of heroes and it was kinda good.
Didnt alot of other genres die too?
e05d91 No.16202218
>>16201978
RTS is still alive, but it's the form of RTT now since base building gets old.
Battlefleet Gothic Armada baybee.
Though a traditional RTS just got released, bannermen.
e7b0ca No.16202311
>>16197745
The home base was a mixed bag, imho. It works well on the first few missions were the twenty or so units your shuttle can carry from the home base and to the mission site actually sufficed to win the mission, but by mid game, it felt that you constantly had to send it back and forth in order to replace your own losses, bring in ammo transports and repair units, carry over resources, and so forth.
It also was kind of bullshit that you never had to upgrade or otherwise fortify your home base (except for the one time that the ED base actually gets attacked).
e7b0ca No.16202317
>>16200568
Don't forget they insisted on adding a singleplayer campaign with the usual live-action actors and all more or less at the last minute and forced them to slap the entire shit together before Starcraft 2 came out.
423105 No.16203881
>>16202218
>base building gets old.
I hope you're being ironic.
6a8875 No.16204282
>>16200324
>Besides being a complete waste of time, you and multiple heroes action RPGs have another thing in common, you're bastards that nobody asked for.
Fixed.
And now lazy easy to make multiple heroes action RPGs are dead.
6a8875 No.16204285
>>16202218
>Battlefleet Gothic Armada
Not real time.
790726 No.16204532
>>16204470
One of the best flash games of all time.
8e5530 No.16204621
>>16204285
Nigger what the fuck? Have you seen the gameplay?
>>16204470
I loved and hated this game. There's so much RNG that at times it feels like bullshit and other times you praise the lord for blessing you. It would be nice if a competent dev (heh) took the ideas in this game and made something like it but more polished.
cf557c No.16205097
>>16197373
literally just ea games. it was always small and mid budget studios making them. guess who ate those up?
>>16197668
>all this greentext with 0 mention of ea
drop and give me 20
bba58a No.16205171
When "RTS where you only control one guy" got popular, why didn't devs try making RTS hybrids of the genre?
>two teams playing against each other, each team has a commander, everyone else controlling a single unit each
>no leveling bullshit, instead it's class-based with players encouraged to switch up the role they are playing between respawns
>commanders are basically just playing an RTS but unlike similar games (Natural Selection, Savage) they aren't focused on babysitting their team, but instead focusing on building and commanding their own armies to make up the bulk of their team's combat power, while playing alongside their teammates who have to make best use of their unity abilites to help get an edge on the opposition
cf557c No.16205224
>>16205171
i imagine there were some who wanted to try it but couldnt get publishers on board. rts was crippled before digital distribution really picked up.
4659bf No.16205279
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16205171
>what is yawn of war the third
2e2d91 No.16205330
>>16205097
EA really only killed Westwood. Vivendi and Activision sucked out what soul Blizzard may have had left and Cavedog just kinda an herod. Westwood may have gone under on its own if you look into the hell that was Tiberian Sun's development.
c39aa7 No.16205334
>>16203881
Base building gets old m8, and there's plenty of city builder.
cf557c No.16205336
>>16205279
thats not at all what hes saying. hes talking more in line of battlezone 2, but even thats a rough comparison.
04cc7c No.16205362
>>16197373
RTS games I guess are considered hard to monetize, and aren't exactly normalfag friendly so.
4659bf No.16205414
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16205336
>>16205171
Oh. Then maybe it is like…. muh Urban Assault
>dystopian post-apocalyptic future where everyone lives in domes, since everything outside has gone to catastrophic levels of shit
>you get to play as the last line of defense against evil russkies, psychopathic cultists, sick murderous cubic aliums that resemble the borg, infesting green boogermensch, and lunatic looting mercenaries
>main character sacrifices his freedom by permanently interfacing his mind and body with the 'Host Station' which is a floating base of operations with teleportation capabilities, that can create units and buildings at the cost of energy
>Earrape 24/7 but sexy bitch AI assistant
>tons of vehicles to fuck shit up with
>Fuckin' Action/RTS
…They just don't make them like they used to.
803054 No.16205494
any of you faggots play ancestor's legacy? looks pretty decent
a9383c No.16205516
>>16205494
It's dark age Company of Heroes, breddy gud.
423105 No.16205832
>>16205334
Building a cool and functional base is a core part of almost any quality RTS, even the ones without walls. You're a scrub if you think base building is outdated.
7a1dda No.16205840
>>16205171
ever heard of Empires?
b273e5 No.16206213
>>16204621
The game is intentionally made to make it largely impossible to have a counter for absolutely everything. The most obvious aspect is the six man rule.
>To prevent you having massive amounts of men on the battlefield, Mud and Blood has a rule called the 6 man rule. If you have more than 6 men on the battlefield that aren't under camnets after wave 10, there is an x/3000 chance per second that the Germans will do something bad to you, where x is the amount of men you have on the field who aren't camnetted. If you've got more than 12 unhidden soldiers on the map, each soldier counts as 10 soldiers.
>This only happens if there are 6 men visible, otherwise it's turned off. Units of the 1st. SS Leibstandarte deactivate your camnets for 10 seconds, which, as you can imagine, can be lethal.
>So, if you had 16 Frenchies on the battlefield, after wave 10, each second there would be a 160/3000 chance that the enemy would do something bad to you, which means that after around 19 seconds, then it's virtually certain that something bad has happened.
>However, blitz waves can carry artillery or V-1's, even if you are under 7 men. These should not be mistaken for bugs, as Blitzes are random and brutal.
e8e424 No.16206331
>>16197373
Tell me buddy, what makes a RTS good? Because Kane's Wrath was good. It was not top notch like Red Alert 2, but it was good. You know what else is good gameplay wise? Planetary Annihilation Titans. I do recall some drama about the last two releases, but if you haven't played any PA so far, PA:Titans is a good pickup. Has a online community too.
The thing is if you want to play RTS games online you have options. and PA:T is a semi recent option too. And if you are one of those who only ever plays offline you are doing it wrong. Yes, a good singleplayer is very important and I played tiberian sun and red alert 2 for ages because the singleplayer was so good, but the current AI is total trash. They do not only cheat but there is no surprise involved. Multiplayer is where all the tactics come in.
423105 No.16206353
>>16206331
>"What makes a RTS good?"
Competitive gameplay should have;
>Precise and accurate controls
>Accurate information within 1-2 clicks on what units are capable of, both friendly and enemy
>Unit variety with different usable niches
>Maps that compliment different tactics
>Growth dependent on player choice, not too linear and fixed
>Some degree of asymmetry
>Tech tree and research that gives player choices for strategy, advantages in matches and counter play
An RTS Campaign should provide
>Variety of scenarios that teach you how to handle different circumstances (eg; defending on the back foot, a fair melee, breaking into a well-defended base, winning in a time limit, limited unit options)
>Room to experiment with different (especially new) units to find out how they work and what they work against
>Minimal hand-holding allowing the player to learn from failure
>Campaign for every faction in the base game
Other general things
>Units should be clear and distinct from each other at a glance, preferably their silhouette being enough to distinguish them
>Faction strategy should be relatively clear by reading about their advantages or inherent to their design
>Database of units/abilities
>Map editor
6a8875 No.16207212
>>16204621
>Have you seen the gameplay?
Did you? Pause is not real time by definition.
>>16205171
>When "Action RPG where you only control one guy" got popular
Crushing popular with Diablo 1 release. 1996/
Also Contra release in 1987 should be mentioned too, though it doesn't have RPG elements.
cc0991 No.16207502
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16206331
>Kane's Wrath
One of the better C&C games really, along with Tibdawn and Tibsun. It still has some of the most exciting and cheesy tournaments and the community is alive to this day. They pull the craziest shit in matches.
>tfw Spartacus retired
803054 No.16208640
i tried ancestors legacy and it seems pretty good, but any chance of increasing the hud size? i'm blind as a fucking bat and can't make out shit
had the same problem with wasteland 2
cbbbd3 No.16208677
>>16197373
>What happen to the real-time strategy genre?
Mobile gaming happen.
acd7a2 No.16208691
>>16197373
nothing. Tooth & Tail is doing just fine
3388bb No.16209737
>>16208640
I've noticed RTS often have fixed HUD sizes, but you could try setting a higher resolution with DSR or VSR, or the opposite actually, setting the game to a lower resolution than your native.
a86bb9 No.16209747
>>16208691
how is it its also in a bundle right now so there is that
a86bb9 No.16209751
also i tried cnc net holy fuck was that some cancer playing red alert compared to openra
423105 No.16209760
>>16209751
What's the difference?
a86bb9 No.16209888
>>16209760
openra has qol but ass cancer backing cnc looks like ass and plays like it
8d7d17 No.16209923
>>16209888
>this post
What did he mean by this?
fdd06b No.16209966
>>16208691
Open Red Alert has Quit on Lose but the redditors who fund the CnC kickstarter look ugly and they are also very bad at the game.
In other words Red Alert is 1CC or quit, and CnC is full of redditors who really suck and also get bullshit kickstarter rewards.
c96d86 No.16209993
>>16209966
Weren't the ORA devs so butthurt at that one anon raping them with engineers that they "rebalanced" the game to prevent anyone from humiliating them that way again?
8d7d17 No.16210002
>>16209993
Yup, guys fucked with the game because they couldn't handle the idea of engi rush.
afd411 No.16210208
Starcraft 2 is the best RTS game ever made and the only reason you oldfags disagree is because you have nostalgia for the early 2000s.
02bcb5 No.16210240
>>16209993
Openra is fucking dogshit, all I wanted was a port of the original, not some gayass rebalance with unnecessary shit added on top. This goes double for whatever the fuck they did to Dune 2K.
In other news, does anyone want to play dune legacy with me?
b9b232 No.16210270
>>16210208
I don't get why it's shat on so hard here, other than the apparent lore rape haven't played past WoL, i remmeber loving it.
423105 No.16210295
>>16210208
Starcraft 2 is the most cleanly designed RTS, but it has many flaws under the surface. Just the idea of macro mechanics is retarded.
>Game hyper-accelerates the longer it goes on due to macro mechanics (Reactors, MULEs, Larval Injection, Creep, Chrono Boost, Warp Gates)
>Every 60 seconds you have to go fuck around with these things instead of them just being auto-cast (at least in the case of chrono/larval injection)
>If you remove larvae and creep mechanics, Queens are redundant except as early defenders, but you could just have Hydras at T1.5 instead of T2, why the fuck did they change it
>Terran went from the defensive team to the hit and run team, Reapers single-handedly warping Terran early game matchups by forcing everyone to build to counter them or lose, but also hellions, medivac and now widow mine drops
>They still have Siege Tanks
There's far more problems with it than just that. Dumb design choices that a seasoned RTS designer shouldn't make. Immortals is an obvious heavy-handed counter to siege tanks/ultralisks.
cf557c No.16210380
>>16210295
from early development they wanted ways to reward apm because some people were actually bitching that it was too easy to manage their base because they could do things like queue buildings, the workers were smarter about distributing mining jobs and the training structures had larger queues.
half of these things wouldnt even affect high level play.
afd411 No.16210386
>>16210295
I don't see how any of these are problems.
ced290 No.16210412
>>16209993
>Weren't the ORA devs so butthurt at that one anon raping them with engineers that they "rebalanced" the game to prevent anyone from humiliating them that way again?
c265dc No.16210430
>>16210295
>>16210380
I swear, the micro hyper-APM niggers are the dead of RTS as a genre.
It stopped being about reflexes long ago and now it's about cramming as much busywork as you can in the shortest amount of time to win.
Queens auto-casting Larval Injection should be the default. Optionally, have them garrison inside Hives to upgrade their larval production at the cost of that unit and her powers while making a Hive a more valuable target. Strategic options, not micro.
Same thing for unit production. Let me queue units even if I don't have Larvas for them and assign those units to any newer Larva when it shows up.
Creep is another chore that has no reason to act the way it does. Natural Selection 2 has the Hive Commander build creep using tumors but in a much better way, since it's fire and forget in a certain direction. Creep tumors should be an Hive ability and work in the same way.
Chrono Boost in particular is ridiculous, not because of the ability itself but because Supreme Commander already figured this shit out: have a Builder assist a building to boost your production. This means almost zero micro on your part but instead you have to use part of your popcap to boost production, making for a strategic choice instead of more busywork and giving your opponent another target to disrupt you.
Heck, it doesn't even have to be a builder, Chrono Boost simply being recast on the previous target or having a list you can feed it to rotate casting on would be more than enough.
000000 No.16210488
The people went degenrate to the point they consider thinking is not fun.
e0a98a No.16210519
>>16210430
If doing things in real time is too much for you maybe you should just play turn based games instead.
c96d86 No.16210523
>>16210519
Point is that winning in RTS games should be about strategy and tactics, not about whatever gook can click the fastest.
e0a98a No.16210539
>>16210523
Micro alone isn't going to get you anywhere. What makes RTS is strategy and control, not one or the other. Taking away mechanical skill would take away a lot of the fun.
fdd06b No.16210556
>>16209993
>>16210002
my post was fabricated, i seriously hope none of you other than the anon i posted at took it seriously at first
c28064 No.16210662
>>16197952
Was I playing that game wrong? I played two missions and all I needed to do was blob all my units onto a target while my heavy bolters layed down suppressing fire. I know two missions wasn't enough but I got the feeling that was what I would be doing for the rest of the game.
c265dc No.16210712
>>16210519
>If doing things in real time
I know you're just angling for an argument to keep the thread bumped, but the issue I and many others have isn't with the real time but rather with the things you do.
Going back and forth from your army back to your base just to queue less than 10 units then zooming around to the latest creep and making sure it's already expanded as much as it can before you build a new one and then going back to pick a new tech only to zoom again to the front just to actually use the abilities of your units doesn't actually make the game better or fun.
I'm afraid that, in your quest for challenge and increasing the skill ceiling, you've actually began to justify ridiculously bad or outdated ideas simply because they effectively raise the challenge, but never have you considered if the game is still fun to play with them. Likely because fun = winning to you and that's the only thought you'll ever spare to this.
Let's start with a simple example: Zerg's Creep Tumors.
Natural Selection 2 has the Hive Commander build Creep Tumors as well with roughly the same rules. A tumor expands an area of creep around it and tumors can only be built on top of creep as well.
However, despite following the same rules, it's implementation is far simpler and more fun to use.
When placing down a Tumor, a line to the nearest one will be shown and if it's too far, an holographic one will be displayed connecting them, showing an additional tumor that will be placed in addition to the one you're planting.
At the start of the game, all a Commander has to do is build a Tumor in a remote location near some critical location and a series of Tumors will be placed automatically forming a line to that position. They will only be built if they are already connected and thus in sequence as well, but the Commander doesn't have to go back and forth building additional Tumors manually when possible.
Now compare it with SC2, where you have to find the latest Tumor you placed, wait for it to expand fully first, and only then expand. And you can only do this once for each initial Tumor you placed.
Does this really sound like a better implementation than NS2? Because the mechanic and the rules are still the same, it just requires far more macro from the Commander for no added benefit. I'll add that NS2 lets you put one by one if you want precision on where the tumors are installed instead, but it let's you bypass that when you don't really need to worry about it.
Same thing for unit production. Start of the game for Zergs will have all Larvas be turned into workers and the next one to be born will be an Overlord. But you can't queue up an Overlord because you don't have that Larva yet. Why?
You already decided what it's going to be, you have the resources to spare, why can't you queue it like in any other building and the next larva that pops out is given the order to morph into an Overlord automatically? Why does babysitting your Larvas actually make the game any better?
There's far more. There's no reason not to have a flow economy in an RTS currently, there's no reason why units on a queue that aren't even being produced yet should take up Resources, it just makes queues something you're better off not using until your economy can support it, there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to place down buildings before you have the resources\tech for them to plan out your base and then let miners work on them when the conditions required for them are valid.
There's plenty of QoL ideas that could make the genre better but all of them will be shunned by boiling frogs that act stunned when nobody else wants to play a game about completing small, boring chores as fast as possible.
824187 No.16210736
>>16198956
i was a total cc1 buff. quickly faded wife cc2 sadface.png
>>16202218
spring1944 anyone?
35ee16 No.16210863
>>16197719
PA:T still has an active player-base and even a community mod that adds another entire faction.
Not huge, but you can find games( which last 35+ min) in about 3-5 min.
bee30c No.16211196
I don't care about what the industry does. Zero-K can shit on everyone's hyper-APM meme while being an actual RTS and having a non-retarded AI.
423105 No.16212175
>>16210386
60 second upkeep busywork doesn't add depth to the game, it makes it harder for the sake of making it harder. The game becomes less about the strategy and more about the maintenance.
Also the fact you can't see what's wrong with the design of Reapers worries me.
f819f5 No.16212735
bee30c No.16212787
>>16212735
are great for fucking turtles.
1ae114 No.16212789
>>16210386
Complexity does not equal depth.
31af57 No.16212829
Something I noticed with rts genre discussions some years ago was that obviously younger fans had no fucking clue what an rts is.
I still see even on this board today people post comments about what an rts is that clearly shows they have no clue what so fucking ever.
First of all there is the stupidity of
>all rts games need to be just like Blizzards model ie starcraft/warcraft
False the genre is called Real Time Strategy
All that is required is to be able to command an army of units in real time.
There is no prequisite for resource gathering or even base building.
The rts genre had already seen a lot of games experimenting with what the genre could do.
As far back as the 90s you had rts with:
real physics
no resources
no base building
premar armies ( abit like warhammer)
third person "general" gameplay
etc
Another issue ive seen is people labelling games that are clearly rts, not rts. Even if they have real time army combat.
Or people labelling games that are not rts like mobas as rts.
This quite possibly may have led to the genre dying since people do not understand the genre meaning anymore and can't be marketted to easily.
It is the genre with the most potential for creatvity and originality.
So its a shame that pure retardation has slowed it down.
423105 No.16212883
>>16212829
>It's not RTS unless I say it is, and it is RTS if I say it is
When you take away the base building, the tech trees, the resource production etc from RTS, you take away the
FUCKING STRATEGY
So that you can focus on troop combat, which is tactics.
31af57 No.16212895
>>16212883
>and the underage low iq retards arrive
389c05 No.16212897
>>16212883
>When you take away the base building, the tech trees, the resource production etc from RTS, you take away the FUCKING STRATEGY
nah you just take away the simcity
423105 No.16212961
>>16212895
>>16212897
Listen here you rebuttal-lacking little shits.
Strategy is your overarching plan of attack to win games and most factions in an RTS come pre-packaged with one to two of them, a good RTS has plenty. How you achieve that goal is down to tactics, and the further you diminish strategy the less your game is an RTS.
>My strategy is to deny my enemy resources to get an economic lead
>My tactic is to harass them early
>My tactic is to kill workers in the mid game
>My tactic is to box them in early so they cannot expand
ASSFAGGOTS have strategy. It's called 'Picks and Bans' because it dictates how you are going to play the game from that point on, and tactics is the rest. Ganking is a tactic. Picking ganking heroes is a strategy.
The difference between a Real-Time Strategy, Real-Time Tactics and an ASSFAGGOTs is the ability to change your strategy on the fly. You can change your strategy in an RTS, and it is necessary to be a good player.
The reason Brood War is so widely heralded as the peak of RTS while being simultaneously hated as the gookclicker that killed it is because the strategy is such an integral part of the game and gookclick is a part of that. Are you a macro player? Better be able to manage 12+ production structures producing units so they spawn simultaneously, while also keeping your resource flow up to par. Are you a micro player? Better make sure you make every fight a victory because there's a chance your opponent will be able to out-produce your army.
This is why SupCom is such a great fucking RTS. Games are expected to go for 20-60minutes giving you room to adjust your strategy as time carries on, and the shit you do in the early game is integral to your success later on. And the reason why shitty maps like 4v4 Seton's Clutch are so thoroughly played is because every moron knows what their strategy is going in, and just has to match it to the strengths of their team.
The more you insist RTS doesn't need base building and resource gathering because its 'gookclick' or because its 'simcity', the more you shit on the strengths on the genre because you are taking away the forward planning that makes up the strategy of the genre.
The entire genre was founded on the idea of building a base and gathering resources. What the fuck do you think you did in Dune? In C&C? In AoE?
But lemme go back to this for a minute.
>>16212829
>This quite possibly may have led to the genre dying since people do not understand the genre meaning anymore and can't be marketted to easily.
Let's just make the genre less specific by incorporating games that do not have base building or resource collection to the mix. Fucking genius there m8.
Also you just ignore tech trees and how god damn important they are to the depth of RTS games to suit your argument. SupCom might be the only exception, and even it has elements of it.
389c05 No.16212978
>>16212961
>Mentions ASSFAGGOTS out of nowhere to pretend his point matters
I can accurately guess just how brown your skin color is.
423105 No.16212991
>>16212978
Following a linear series of posts is hard, ain't it faggot? The other guy brought up ASSFAGGOTS.
31af57 No.16213002
>>16212961
You aren't worth replying to you because you are obviously a niglet.
389c05 No.16213034
>>16212991
RTS can still be good without simcity, if not better
e65c6b No.16213346
In the heyday of RTS most players were probably like me: they played the single player campaigns over and over again, did co-op with friends against the AI, built fuckhueg retard bases oblivious to optimal strategy when we did battle each other, and occasionally messed around in the level editor. I poured countless hours into the classic C&C titles as a kid, completely oblivious to internet multiplayer and serious competitive playstyles all the while. If none of that stuff had been existed and instead I had been thrown into the internet meat grinder immediately, I probably would have given up on the genre entirely by the end of my first day.
I'm very far out of the loop with RTS, but it sounds like the remaining devs have doubled down on competitive multiplayer focus. If so, then I am not at all surprised that the genre died out. Competitive RTS play is simply overwhelming in every respect for the majority of potential players. You're never going to grow a playerbase focusing solely on that aspect of the genre, and it sounds to me like there aren't enough competitive RTS multiplayer fans to keep the lights on by themselves. It's the same deal with arena shooters, you "need" the casuals to be relevant again but nobody has figured out how to attract them without dumbing the shit out of your genre or turning it into something else entirely.
85f69e No.16214345
>>16213346
>I'm very far out of the loop with RTS, but it sounds like the remaining devs have doubled down on competitive multiplayer focus.
I agreed with you that's the reason StarCraft2 and RTS in general failed. *sigh*
7e24fa No.16214351
>>16213346
SP/campaign = wide appeal and initial sales motivator, well-supported MP/modding = playerbase longevity and extended relevance with the consumerbase. Both are necessary for complete success.
c265dc No.16218775
>>16212961
I'd like to contribute to this post with a case studies: Age of Mythology.
It's a simple enough RTS that nevertheless is quite interesting and fun to play that does a few neat things in the genre.
More specifically, you pick a strategy based around your faction and Major God and you complement it with tactics on the side.
Pick the Greeks and focus on human troops, changing your base building according to the resource they require the most. More farms for Zeus, more woodcutters for Hades, sea superiority for Poseidon, etc.
Then use Gastraphetes as both archers and siege, or make the secondary unit in each building to counter your oponent if his main units will easily beat your elite units, etc.
The strategy is what aspect of the macro will you focus on. the tactics are the micro you'll use to win battles.
You can also pick the Egyptians and focus far more in Gold production instead. You'll also have mercenaries to counter rushes, more mythical creatures, priests for easy map vision, etc.
Your strategy is map awareness, defend your monuments and keep a large trading caravan going, your tactics will be using Shifting Sands to bypass defences and take an important base from your opponent.
Or you can pick the Norse faction, where they gain one of their resources from fighting and if you pick Loki, they even spawn units in the middle of a fight, making early combat and agression more economically viable.
Your strategy will be to build forward bases since your army does most of the building and this keeps you close to the fight. Your tactics will be to build towers in the middle of a fight or mass spam Hersirs and Huskarls as Loki to have Myth units spawning at a fast rate.
Your tactics are more or less viable according to your initial choice (Archery with Poseidon is doable but never as strong as with Hades) but they can still be adjusted as long as your strategy allows it.
In the end, what wins the game isn't simply countering and killing your enemie's army. It's rebuilding your losses faster than he rebuilds his, something you get by having military trades more favorable to you but also by controlling town centers, trade caravans, hunting and foraging before farming, sea control, etc.
088bc6 No.16219154
>>16218775
I don't see the advantage of hard picking your strategy over just giving the player access to all the units for a faction.
MOBA-shitters always go on about how their shit game has 200+ characters you can play but always forget to mention that once you're in a game there's only 1 character you can play. Aren't the minor gods in AoM the same thing? Wouldn't it be a deeper game if you could switch your strats on the fly because there'd be more things that could happen in a given game.
c265dc No.16219379
>>16219154
That's what happens in AoM.
As a Greek, you have Infantry, Archers and Cavalry making a rock-paper-scissor that's available to everyone and you also have an extra unit in that category that's overly specialized to counter the same category.
So if Zeus goes against Hades, he's in a worse position since Hades counters him, but you can solve this by making some Peltast in case he goes heavy on his Toxotes.
Minor Gods are present specifically so you can adapt your strategy as the game goes. For instance, once Zeus goes up the first Age, he can choose between Athena, a defensive option that favors Infantry and conters infantry, or Hermes, a more aggressive option that favors cavalry while providing some extra ranged support. So ideally, you'd pick the first option if you're losing the early game or going against Norse and you'd pick the second option if you have decent map control already or going against someone making a lot of ranged units.
>I don't see the advantage of hard picking your strategy
If by this you mean the unique units that each Major God has or their differences, it's a matter of flavor and favoring different playstyles.
For instance, I like focusing on Hersir to annihilate myth units while using my own to raise entire towns. I complement this with a minimum amount of human troops mostly for building and that's it.
If I pick Loki, I generate more favour and free myth units just from fighting, while having strong options available for me.
While playing Greek, I like making a strong defensive line and then rain down death upon my enemies. This means going with Hades and making some infantry to shield a bunch of Gastraphetes and siege weapons.
You could have a simple Greek faction that has all units available and all Minor God options when teching up, but splitting units around like this means introducing flaws that an oponent can exploit if he knows the game well while making every other option stronger to make up for it.
For instance, the Myrmidon that Zeus gets is stronger against all other races. If he was available to all Gods, he'd have to be significantly weaker or you'd only spam it whenever going against any other race. The way it stands, it's balanced to have the Myrmidons because you can counter them with Throwing Axe for the Norse without Zeus having decent archers to counter them.
088bc6 No.16220148
>>16219379
>You could have a simple Greek faction that has all units available and all Minor God options when teching up, but splitting units around like this means introducing flaws that an oponent can exploit
These flaws don't cease to exits because you can build other units. If I build nothing but cavalry and my opponent builds nothing but pikemen i'd lose regardless of whether i can also build pikemen. But I don't see the benefits mechanically in regards to the amount of strategy by having a faction that can only build cavalry vs a faction that can only build pikemen. Surely the game would be more interesting to play if everyone could build everything. You'd still have to commit in AoM for example by building a stables and upgrading cavalry but it would allow you more choice/options and thus more strategy.
In fact wouldn't the flaws and benefits of a given strategy be deeper since the opportunity cost would be greater. If you could only build cavalry then there's no better way you can spend your resources but if you can build anything and you spend everything on cavalry they'll both be more powerful if used correctly but even weaker if used poorly because t here are more things it can potentially counter and more things it can be potentially countered by.
Otherwise aren't you just advocating for the matchup to be more important than the players ability. In the extreme example of the just cavalry faction vs the just pikemen faction regardless of player ability it is an unfair matchup.
a2cf6c No.16224637
What is a good multiplayer RTS that is not nearly as micro based and APM based as SC2 but still have a high skill gap to master and are sorta balanced? (what i mean by that is that one build dont dominate the game, i dont expect perfect balance) Was thinking about AoE2, AoM or a CnC game since i never got into them. I could also get back into SC2 but i am totally lost since i did not play for 3+ years. Other games i am thinking about is WC3 since i never really focused hard on the 1v1 online. I just want something a little more relaxing than sc2 but still sorta similar in gameplay. Final thing is that it need to be alive. It should be possible to find matches at a reasonable time with other players.
088bc6 No.16224925
>>16224637
For RTS supreme commander forged alliance forever (faf) is active, a bit slower paced and designed around longer games. I know AoE 2 is active but can't speak for AoM but they're both solid picks.
A little bit different you have RTTs; company of heroes 1 + 2, steel division and wargame are all played actively. No base building means its all micro but it's nothing close to SC2.
I'd maybe also suggest broodwar either the original which is free or pirate the remaster but they're more gookclick not less because they have less QoL. Maybe youd like the change of pace though.
a2cf6c No.16225000
>>16224925
Broodwar is an amazing game but it is even more gookclick with all the flaws (some dont see it that way, it do add to the skillgap of the game but yea) Stuff like no automine means that you need to manually select every single worker to mine after you make a worker, that alone takes a lot of APM. Then again i guess i can deal with that issue if there are many viable 1base all-in tactics that are less braindead than the very classic 4pool. Can you tell me about the Command and Conquer games (mostly looking at RA2, RA3, CnC3 and generals) and how they are for online? (talking about balance, playerbase and such)
One game i was also looking at is AoEO private server. I never got into playing it but i dont know how it compares to AoE2
https://www.projectceleste.com/
cc0991 No.16225103
>>16225000
>Can you tell me about the Command and Conquer games (mostly looking at RA2, RA3, CnC3 and generals) and how they are for online?
C&C 3 + KW has a healthy dedicated multiplayer community over at GameReplays. Tournaments are fun, banter is all around, and they even play some mods. They've made a patch to balance the game out, but it's balanced to the point that you can viably pull some crazy shit in games to win.
Don't know about other games.
088bc6 No.16225325
>>16225000
>it do add to the skillgap of the game
>you need to manually select every single worker to mine after you make a worker
>add skill
Which skill are you being tested for here?
>>16225103
If people are playing 3 over generals then I've got to say I'm disappointed.
803054 No.16225355
>>16225325
i could be wrong but i think 3 is a lot easier to run than generals hence the bigger playercount
cc0991 No.16225415
>>16225325
>disappointed
3 is better than Generals though. Improved engine, better mechanics, units don't get stuck on bottlenecks, and it's overall more of a C&C game than Generals too.
692e6f No.16225528
>>16225415
>3 is better than Generals though
lol no
cc0991 No.16225540
>>16225528
Generals straight up played like shit. Units move slow as molasses, effects look like garbage, commander powers out the ass with a myriad point-and-click-to-pulverize-everything-in-this-particular-area abilities that make big armies a huge waste of time, horrible bottlenecking problems for large groups of units, the basebuilding rips off Age of Empires instead of being the iconic C&C style, resource mining was massively trivialized, engineers were removed in favor of "capturing" buildings with standard infantry (which take fucking eons and makes backdoor base captures impossible) and a bunch of other janky shit that just makes it boring. C&C3 fixed most of its problems and plays more like the originals.
Generals is overrated because of its war-on-terror theme which is popular in the current political climate. Wacky terrorists, yadda yadda. It's funny how so many people consider it the most popular in the series when it's so far removed from the original formula it might as well not even be a C&C game.
692e6f No.16225583
>>16225540
>C&C Generals plays differently from C&C Red Alert 3
Who could have foreseen this ?
RA3 is the worst entry in the RA series. Generals is a separate thing as the name implies and had entire factions without *point to do damage in area* skills. The building elements of the game made separate buildings more worthwhile, which is different from the RA: *1 building of each type is enough*. Base capping for basic units makes them useful all game.
Seeing you defend RA3 is like seeing people come out and defend Diablo 3 and WoW expansion 8 because whoopity doo it plays closer to the original games than PoE and some MMO. Just fuck off.
cc0991 No.16225590
>>16225583
>Red Alert 3
I'm talking about Tiberium Wars you fucking dumbass. C&C 3 is a tiberium game. RA3 is Red Alert 3.
You don't even know what games are being discussed, just fucking kill yourself.
RA3 was a pile of vomit too.
cc0991 No.16225603
>>16225583
>Generals is a separate thing as the name implies and had entire factions without *point to do damage in area* skills
Bullshit. You get starts to gain commander abilities in every mission. It's a major part of the game.
>The building elements of the game made separate buildings more worthwhile
It did not. It made basebuilding a fucking slow, is what it did.
>1 building of each type is enough
Having multiple buildings of the same type in the original games resulted in faster production, not to mention you could pick any building to churn out units. In Tiberium Wars, multiple buildings allow for multiple build queues, speeding up unit construction
>Base capping for basic units makes them useful all game
It did not, you stupid nigger. Engineers have a very specific purpose as an objective to be protected until it captured something, which put value into strategizing on how to take a base without just destroying everything.
Not only do you not know what you're talking about, you're also fucking loud about it.
692e6f No.16226772
>>16225590
Oh year ? And why does nobody remember C&C 3 then fuckwit ? Because it sucks dicks, that is why.
cc0991 No.16227090
>>16226772
>C&C 3 then
Plenty of people do. You're just retarded.
It has tournaments every fucking month.
8eb9c2 No.16227114
>>16226772
I remember CnC3. Pretty fondly, actually. With the appropriate mod, it's even comparable to the old games, albeit with slightly less intelligent AI that you can game the shit out of with walls.
423105 No.16230285
>>16219154
>>16220148
Asymmetrical balance anon.
When two factions have access to the exact same options, the game devolves to the best strategy. This is true in pretty much every mirror match I have seen, not just in Brood War, in C&C, Age of Empires, etc.
Certain units are better than others and even if you enforce a strict paper scissors rock with units there will be an option that comes out to be the best for some reason.
When one faction has advantages and weaknesses against another faction, it creates avenue that the two sides must play around, while if both teams are equal you'll find the winner is decided by pulling a trick that won't work every game, or the loser didn't keep up in macro/micro.
The ideal paper scissors rock diversity of units doesn't work in practice.
68ba3a No.16230322
The Jews happened to RTS is what happened
a92072 No.16230484
The RTS genre had its hype late '90s, early '00s. It got replaced by FPS and that's about it. Fads come and go.
0c7483 No.16230609
Will RTS ever make a comeback? Just popular enough to get a decent influx of players would be enough.
*Goes back to air-to-air battles in Total Annihilation*
c96d86 No.16230630
>>16227114
>With the appropriate mod
Tiberium Essence?
>>16230609
>Will RTS ever make a comeback?
Not unless the current industry model dies a fiery death. Big publishers have no interest in making them when they can shit out easier to make cinematic experiences, and smaller dev teams struggle with the scope and technology.
088bc6 No.16233995
>>16230285
There's no reason why asymmetrical match ups can't also devolve into a "best strategy". This is down to the individual balance and is separate. Any Strategy game that has one winning strategy has only one strategy and thus involves minimal strategy.
Rock paper scissors is also not the ideal for strategy, this is a simplistic view of what strategy is. If there was only one unit then there could be multiple strategies, for example harassing or playing aggressively vs hard eco or turtling; trying to make favourable trades continually with small numbers of units vs building up a huge army and death-balling the enemy,
The deepest strategy games have the most possible winning strategies. If you limit the amount of possible strategies a faction can have by hard capping its functionality then you make the game more shallow. Outside of flavour I see no benefits to doing this.
Hypothetically.
8d3f17 No.16234368
>>16197373
These niggers happend and ruined it just like they ruined MMORPG
008eea No.16238617
>>16234368
StarCraft Broodwar was the best.
SC2 was soooooooooo lacklustre
08e414 No.16239533
>>16225603
>basebuilding in generals
>slow
Did you only use the first builder unit that came out or are you mentally stunted enough that you can't handle managing building units?
And you can't damage shit with the first two levels you get with commander abilities since they're mostly unit veterancy and new unit unlocks
fe1161 No.16240723
>Original Starcraft
>Stuck on P6
What's the best strategy to employ? You start with a fuck load of resources and an established base and a decent size army.
I just can't seem to crack one or the other enemy bases. Doesn't help that they get Arbiters, and if you take too long they get Stasis, and they like sending attack waves of 4 Reavers with other units. Just not sure what to use short of a big ol' death ball of 3-4 control groups + reavers.
I have access to;
>Zealot, Dragoon, High Templar, Shuttle, Reaver, Observer, Scout
7f118b No.16241169
>>16239533
In all honesty Generals basebuilding was pretty boring. You have to waste money and time building units that can build structures just so it won't take as long, buildings are vulnerable while under construction and can result in wasted money if they're destroyed before completion. I like being able to have barracks ready to pop down and start building units asap anywhere near friendly structures/my MCV instead of having to move (and waste units by escorting) a builder tractor stroll around the map to build one. It slows down expansion and rushing a lot.
9690e8 No.16242679
Are there RTS where infantry are still useful at the endgame?
bedf8e No.16242719
>enter thread
>muh APM ruined RTS
>muh elitism ruined RTS
>muh RTS ruined RTS
What ruined RTS is that everybody is a brainlet now (like you) that can't be arsed to git gud at a game (like you) and demands to be spoonfed.
Then you try to make RTS, and wowzers, you fail, who knew such a turn of events would happen.
This is true for grey goo, executive assault, that Italian age of empires clone, planetary annihilation, tooth and nail and so on.
They're made by people who have never learned a build order, who have never microed more than two units, who have never not sucked dick at RTS, trying to make an RTS that will be lenient to their cocksucker ways and for some reason being surprised when that's not how it works.
fe1161 No.16242731
>>16242719
Watch out anon, those are some controversial opinions. Wanting people to actually improve themselves to beat videogames in this day and age is a big no no.
I really do agree with you wholeheartedly. People complaining about gookclick are people who don't understand it and never tried it to appreciate it.
57e3cb No.16242780
>>16242719
1v1 me bitch. I'll show you why RTS suck
692e6f No.16242859
>>16242780
Oh yeah? Fine but we are playing AoE2 and suppcom or RA2. Not SC1 or SC2.
c56db6 No.16242887
>>16242719
>blames RTS as a genre dying because people don't know how to play it
>proceeds to act like an elitist
>Doesn't propose any theory as to why the genre is dead
That's ironic.
889b70 No.16242904
>>16242719
> can't be arsed to git gud at a game
I was pretty good in AoE:II, knew how to fast castle it up, rush dem knights'n sheit but doing that in near every single fucking game became boring quickly.
Then when i tried to deviate from the meta, picked some civ other than huns/mongols i'd either get kicked for being a noob, trying to ruin the game or if our team if it was a team game lost i'd be blamed since i didnt go with the meta but did something else instead.
When it worked and it usually did if i managed to stay in the game there'd obv be no praise at all, not that i want to be praised for playing good but…
>TLDR:
metas ruin rts/multiplayers
692e6f No.16242935
>>16242904
AoE2 has the most fucked up gameplay for sure.
On a pro level there are more strategies involving cheese than anything else. Walling off early is mandatory.
It makes Starcraft cheese look enjoyable.
57e3cb No.16242985
>>16242859
FINE! How do we do this?
5c273d No.16243038
>>16242679
Why is that hedgehog photoshopped in there
cc0991 No.16243230
>>16242904
>i'd either get kicked for being a noob, trying to ruin the game or if our team if it was a team game lost i'd be blamed since i didnt go with the meta but did something else instead.
>When it worked and it usually did if i managed to stay in the game there'd obv be no praise at all
If it works, it sounds more like a community problem than a meta one.
692e6f No.16243311
>>16242985
FAF
ACC: Karukus
This Sunday.
C'mon faggit.
57e3cb No.16243357
>>16243311
>faf
I would've gone with TI but this is fine.
>This Sunday.
11:00 UTC sound good?
692e6f No.16243427
>>16243357
11:00 UTC is good
Give me your account as well and the deal is sealed.
Just so you know, I am not the guy from the post chain, I just want to 1v1. If the thread dies just write my acc down and we will handle it in FAF chat.
Regular game, no modes, everything allowed.
20961f No.16244064
>>16244035
This.
Someone should enter the game as a spectator and stream it so we can see what both sides are doing.
2e2ae4 No.16244133
>>16197520
Goddamn those tiny ass ball-shaped maps are awful.
fe1161 No.16244352
>>16244035
Or just record and upload.
54aa94 No.16244735
>>16197520
>scout enemy early on and see they're fully committing to air
>doesn't spam AA
7428e3 No.16244782
>>16244735
>That image.
Thanks for the nightmares faggot.
20d7c0 No.16247762
>>16243038
He represents the hedgehog's dilemma of wanting to be close but being close is painful.
0cd73e No.16248094
I wish an AGDG anon would make an RTS
fe1161 No.16248108
>>16248094
What are the stats on the obelisk vs advanced guard tower?
fe1161 No.16248195
>>16248132
That's some gross differences. I'd need to see unit range to see how much that 1.5 difference matters, but I doubt its overall worth it.
1fc46c No.16248224
>>16248195
Pretty a much a headstart of 1 shot but with the other having twice the attack speed it doesnt really matter.
20d7c0 No.16250718
>>16248132
Longer range, more damage but slower RoF and sucks juice like nothing else. Reminds me of my ex.
0852b9 No.16250839
>>16242719
Using chess as an analogy I can give you a few really good reasons why RTS died that are different from what you cite while also being somewhat related.
>muh APM ruined RTS
APM per say are not what ruins it, its the sense that instead of trying to play the game you are instead trying to exploit game mechanics to win. In chess it's turn based and each person gets one move per turn. OK great fine and dandy. The better player simply uses his one move better. Imagine instead if there were no turns in chess, what does it become? A race to simply move your pieces around quicker than your opponent beating him by simple reflex and not through any sort of planning or skill. Funnily enough there once was a chess variant called Ninja Chess back in the day that didn't have turns and while it was fun it was also frustratingly retarded to anyone who couldn't click 120+ times/minute.
>muh elitism ruined RTS
Correct. Especially when there was a lack of system for matching people based on skill. Again using a chess analogy if new players got consistently matched against Grand Masters who beat them without fail and overwhelmingly all but the most committed will give up and move onto more "fun" activities. It was only too far down the road and too late that RTS began using ranking and even when they did you still had faggots who felt it necessary to smurf people for the hell of it.
>muh RTS ruined RTS
You say this in jest but the truth is that strategy games in general are much harder because simple mistakes are often very unforgiving and it does indeed take a while to 'git gud'. In chess if you blunder a piece you can end up fucked and in higher level play a blunder will often result in a resignation with more than half the pieces left because they simply know that there is no coming back. Likewise in RTS if you fall behind economically or militarily it simply becomes a lopsided fight where no matter what you do you can simply never get back to an even footing with your opponent. If you look at other game genres, mistakes can be bad but they won't automatically lose you the rest of a oftentimes long game.
Again the running trend between these points is that there is a hell of a frustrating speed-bump to cross before you get to the point where you can start enjoying the game and most people simply do not have the patience to put up with the frustration that entails.
692e6f No.16255704
>>16243427
>>16243357
So where are ya? It's time.
Password: Bombardment
fe1161 No.16255720
>>16250839
>Let's use a turn based game with fixed pieces as an analogy for a real-time based game with base building and unit production
Why didn't you just use football? It's about as similar to RTS as chess is.
692e6f No.16255743
>>16255725
>doesn't even show up for an anonymous match
fe1161 No.16255758
>>16255743
Sad days these are when anons won't show up to challenges.
692e6f No.16255765
>>16255758
>>16255743
I'm closing the game anyway.
People are all bait and no game these days.
000000 No.16255767
Fags who were shit at video games got stuck in bronze in SC2, REEEEEE'd that it was the game's fault they were shit
fdd06b No.16256010
>>16255765
Apparently since the FAF "owner" is a massive fucking cuck who supposedly does not get involved, you're now required to link your (((steam))) account with a copy of the game on it in order to login.
Is this still true or did they go back on that?
692e6f No.16256046
>>16256010
Yep. The excuse is being unable to ban trolls or something.
fdd06b No.16256084
>>16256046
The best part is that I never really remember having to deal with these """villains""", maybe its just a ladder thing, but the shit I had to deal with was just extremely retarded russians.
So really, all of this shit was apparently because of what, some faggot shitposting in chat? Bullshit. And not like the rating matters either for "smurfs" because you can get a high rating just by stacking astro crater over and over.
3fd37f No.16256090
>>16256046
man, what a gay
cec3ea No.16267268
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16255765
>>16256090
Undersea Combat? What game is this?
40b9e3 No.16267313
>>16197704
The Warfare series
>Warfare 1
>start as a small unit stuck in Saudi Arabia because the king is a tard that didn't see everyone betraying him coming
>go through the mission like it's Grand Theft Army
>end up with a rag tag bunch of troops including police and personal royal bodyguard mixed with the Delta Force with a mix of US, UK, FR and USSR equipment
>ATGM and mines fucking everywhere
>Warfare Reloaded
>now playing as Russia trying to clean up the clusterfuck the US made in the first game
>remove burgers and / or kebabs throughout the game with a difficulty level far above the previous one
>but no persistent army although stealing other vehicles is perfectly viable
>ATGM and mines fucking everywhere^2
>Syrian Warfare
>basically the same as the first one except you play as the kebabs removing other kebabs and there's no western military equipment to be found anywhere.
>ATGM and mines fucking everywhere
23c1a3 No.16268557
>>16210295
>>16210430
>>16210523
>>16210712
>>16214345
t. fags that can't play a real RTS
no one wants to play that dumb ass click one unit per hour dumb shit. there's no micro skill involved.
>inb4 micro skill means nothing!
and this is why you can't play at a high tier level cause you dont understand anything
ae4288 No.16268586
>>16197373
just leaving this here.
google forged alliance forever.
bf7ad4 No.16268615
>>16197373
The thing is that there is a huge market for strategy games, but the Developers just aren't creative enough.
When I played Homm3 as a kid, I imagined huge armies of Creatures clashing into each other. When I played Warcraft I imagined what it would be like to control the entire Alliance or Horde in a geopolitical Chess Game.
I don't play RTS anymore, because it completly stagnated as a genre. It doesn't innovate anymore. I went with the few developers that did something different like Paradox and Creative Assembly with Total War.
There is still a huge potential for sub-genres, we aren't really thinking about. Like a God Game Simulator. Maybe even with some citybuilding. The only game in existance that does this is Black and White 2. Literally no other game combines these 2 sub-genres of Strategy.
If you want an example of how lazy and stupid RTS Developers of today are, just look at the UI of Popolous. It allowed to to select units in an UI tab, without doing anything on the real map.
This technology is more than 2 decades old. But apparently you aren't allowed to implement that, because MUH MULTIPLAYER ESPORTS.
Besides Multiplayer (which ruined War for the Overworld), the greatest Cancer in Strategy Games are to make it more Arcadey and not Simulationist. What do I mean by this? Look at the difference between Hearts of Iron 3 and 4.
Or of later Total War Games and Earlier ones.
Instead of population and trade being dynamic, you have static artifical + and minus symbols. FFS you can't even trade with yourself anymore in the game and all your trade goods become useless, if you don't have trade with a foreign entitiy, like your people don't trade internally.
PS: Apropos Popolous, the Game had fully modifiable terrain that you could affect with spells. The effects were permanent. Developers are getting retarded and lazy. They can't even do mirrors anymore.
2a234d No.16268671
>>16197704
Ground Control and Ground Control 2.
025465 No.16268789
>>16268557
Micro shouldn't be useless, but it should be secondary. Good tactics should beat out gookclicking any day. Micro should be able to give a minor advantage at best, and in games like StarCraft 2, you can have a confrontation at a 70% disadvantage and pull off a win through alone. Ideally, you should be able to make a tactical push and conduct battle across many fronts at once without having to worry about dancing units, and that's only viable in macro heavy games like Total Annihilation.
bf7ad4 No.16268849
>>16268615
>no replies
Fuck you, /v/
930577 No.16269652
>>16268849
Look Anon if you really want to play mass numbers of units then it's already been done via Total Annihilation. There is even a public domain engine based off it called Spring. Beyond that all real time strategy and turn based is going the way of 4x or nuXCOM.
45160d No.16270051
>>16197704
Wargame and RUSE
8a0d78 No.16270341
>>16242719
>muh APM ruined RTS
APM ruined the fun of RTS. turning your keyboard into a piano of commands is dumb. It was dumb because the difference in performance between a high apm and low apm is absolutely huge.
When you have something like a shooter, things like aim are easier to measure ones performance and growth. APM is hard to measure is is generally unfun to practice.
When you stop letting the people who can't micro have their fun, then guess what happens? They turn to ASSFAGGOTS that's what happens.
APM IS what ruined RTS. Star Craft 2 is the most apm pandering game to ever come out and it's the least fun thing Blizzard has every produced.
>muh elitism ruined RTS
Elitism doesn't ruin games, elitism creates a sense of autism that usually benefits a game.
>git gud
Splooging on keybinds is not "getting good" memorizing build order is not "geting good"
3 year olds can memorize piano songs. You are not "elite".
People just don't do what that crap because it is not fun to learn, not fun to play once learned and is Lame with a capital L.
t. learned how to gook click on a RTS and had hours of time wasted and the game ruined in the process.
cf557c No.16270439
the same stupid fucking argument. you all know very well what "killed" rts is that its too niche.
c56db6 No.16271239
>>16270341
>elitism creates a sense of autism that usually benefits a game.
Which is why quake is so alive and well, right? All 100 players.
6a8875 No.16272778
>>16268615
So called "RTS" are failed design at their core. Trying to animate them is making corpse walk.
>>16271239
LoL is alive and well. And LoL players worship ranks more than everyone.
1da0df No.16272833
>>16270341
>It was dumb because the difference in performance between a high apm and low apm is absolutely huge
Yeah and the difference between fatal1ty and a noob is huge too, the difference between somebody who played pro fighting games and somebody who just started is huge.
It's called skill ceiling, git gud
Memorization is a skill, reflexes are a skill. Just because you suck doesn't mean these skills suddenly happen to be obsolete.
A wunderkind can learn to play piano at 3, he can't win a professional match in a videogame, first you claim skills are bad, then you complain that everybody can learn these skills.
Which is kind of the point of "easy to learn hard to master" you faggot.
>>16250839
Yes, chess is turn based, RTS are real time based. This means RTS are bad because if you made chess not turn based it would suck. Flawless logic 10/10
962532 No.16273123
>>16272833
He's right when he says memorization is boring. It's the same reason barely anyone plays fighting games competitively.
d6af3a No.16273153
>>16271239
It's why ffxi is still alive.
2b109d No.16279883
>>16272833
Real-time simultaneous chess time!
49d0b4 No.16280102
>>16272833
If you make 3rd POV action RPG with more than character to control at once it would suck. Story of the "RTS".
Well actually it applies for every action game: FPS, racing etc.
e20cd8 No.16284200
>>16267268
Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance
f53760 No.16284270
It's great how Kane just fucks off at the end of C&C4. Really ties the whole story together.
1f926c No.16286901
>>16284200
Jacques Cousteau would be proud.