6416a6 No.16065123
What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system in a game that actually matters and makes sense? Something that's actually consequential to gameplay and gives the game some branching variety during playthroughs?
Keep in mind, we're not arguing about the nature of morality, you sperg, we're talking about VIDEO GAMES. As long as the internal logic of the game's morality is consistent I couldn't care less if it's "right" or not.
626eda No.16065130
There’s no point to them. Prove me wrong.
6d2933 No.16065133
The Way of the Samurai and Disaster Report series.
e3fe23 No.16065143
>>16065123
"Corruption" systems are probably more interesting mechanically than morality systems? Imagine if Bloodborne's [insight] stat was more well developed.
bbc8ca No.16065152
One that's not intrusive and changes barely anything. New Vegas had a better system where faction rep determined how people saw you and not karma. Karma only changes a couple things that I'm aware of. One being the variation of the ending slides for your chosen faction and two being if Cass leaves you or not.
bcc9ed No.16065157
e3fe23 No.16065165
>>16065157
Not what the thread is about.
6416a6 No.16065172
>>16065152
Fallout's karma system has definitely always felt more like a flavor thing than a serious mechanic. Which I guess is valid, but I'd really like a morality system like Jade Empire, where the moral choices you make will have a tangible effect on the story and the content.
6bf243 No.16065176
>>16065123
>What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system in a game that actually matters and makes sense?
Have it invisible to the gamer, meaning you have no idea what your actions have done or if word has traveled. But if you were a dick or murderous zealot, the game world would adjust accordingly same for if you saved the odd NPC/mindless leftist.
bbc8ca No.16065192
>>16065165
Posting this webm should be a felony.
>>16065172
I really don't like if karma systems force you into a branch of a story unless it has something to do with the setting itself. KOTOR II does it best in my opinion in that if you go down the path of the Dark Side, you end up with a slave companion that you can break or a big tiddied goth acolyte if you game the system a bit, joining a military coup against the ruling monarchy, helping raiders take over a small farming town and becoming the leader of the new Sith Order. Gives a sense that the Dark Side is a corrupting force that once someone starts even entertaining the idea of, there is no turning back.
e3fe23 No.16065201
>>16065172
The main problem with karma systems is that they are either simply a tally of good boy points and bad boy points or they utilize a complex web of choices. The former is boring and easily gameable while the latter will never be implemented because of lazy devs. I mean devs don't even like implementing multiple endings let alone a complex tapestry of branching pathways.
d7603c No.16065205
>>16065123
>FO
>steal 1000 pencils and you're growing horns
I suppose when it restricts you from certain paths of play where NPCs won't take your smileyface.jpg shit if you've been a evil bastard the whole game and you suddenly start acting nice, conversely there's nothing like ditching the normalfag township and becoming a slut kidnapping necromancer. KOTOR light/dark skill trees and the effects on the story are good examples, when it inspires a second playthrough (or more) without short-changing the player even better.
bbc8ca No.16065214
>>16065201
One thing Bioware did that I honestly think was a good choice was removing the idea of a "karma meter" from the Dragon Age series and instead rely solely on companion influence. Granted, that was also easily manipulated, but it didn't have any lasting effects beyond being able to start companion quests and kicking companions out of your camp. Far better than some asshole running up to you and going "Hey, you got that cat out of that tree in the next town over! Here's the key to the city! Take everything you want!"
664ee9 No.16065258
>>16065214
>but it didn't have any lasting effects
You're arguing that it's better because it's less impactful on the game. In other words, you're arguing that it's better because it's less. Follow that to it's logical conclusion and you should be able to see you don't like karma/morality/reputation systems at all.
d7603c No.16065264
>>16065201
>devs don't even like implementing multiple endings let alone a complex tapestry of branching pathways.
This truth makes me sad.
I'd like to see some of Molyneux's lies come to pass where the landscape, places and people of a world change as the actions of the protagonist work themselves out upon them. If you fuck over or help/invest in a town or person it suffers or thrives in the long-run. So being a greedy murderous fuck to everyone early on makes your life harder later. Naturally the amount of art shit that needs to be devoted to it is hueg and as you say unlikely. Especially when you consider most devs now put out (((pre-alpha early access))) bullshit and barely if ever fucking finish anything once never mind the 2 or 3 passes a passable story needs.
7957cb No.16065271
>>16065123
Players are moral and never take the evil route on the first run, which kinda removes any intrigue. Moral systems are inherently flawed, they only work when the morality is not clearly good or evil.
246b9f No.16065282
>>16065123
>>16065130
Don't have "Morality" Systems (you can still have Moral Choices but..) have reputation systems
>>16065152
New Vegas did this right I used to think keeping the karma system in it was pointless until I realized it was being used as a rep system for the companions
>>16065157
SPOOKED
bbc8ca No.16065293
>>16065258
That's just plain false. I like them if they're done well. Bioware's "good goy bad goy" systems are terrible and add almost nothing to the game.
>>16065282
That's what I liked about it too, it wasn't omniscient, just how your companions saw you. After all, they are the ones who witness you killing that family then stealing everything in your house. After that, it should be up to their "morality" to decide if they stay with you or not, Cass being the best example because if you are an asshole, she gives you a couple chances to change if you have the speech, she leaves you right there or you outright kill her for being a useless bitch.
d7603c No.16065295
>>16065271
Going Renegade Shepard first in ME was the best decision I made in that game, made herofag Shep come off like a bit of cardboard.
bbc8ca No.16065314
>>16065293
*stealing everything in their house
1884dd No.16065318
>>16065271
>Players are moral and never take the evil route on the first run
I'd actually be super interested in seeing the numbers on this sort of thing if you have any.
bbc8ca No.16065338
>>16065318
If anecdotes are anything to go, people usually don't role play on their first playthrough. They mostly use the first run as a way to get used to the systems and see what the story has to offer and what's better than being yourself? Humans are naturally selfish in thought but altruistic in action so people will inherently play the "good" guy their first time. I'd recommend watching Alchestbreach to see what I mean. During his reviews, he'll playthrough as if he was himself so his actions naturally gravitate towards being selfless and heroic but he'll always be mercenary in his negotiations, taking the options that get him more money no matter if it is the right thing to do or not such as extorting cash from a desperate mother.
d7603c No.16065349
>>16065293
> After all, they are the ones who witness you killing that family then stealing everything in your house
This is a good point, the only ones who should immediately know your rep are the people with you, or witnesses who could then spread that info, so you might be known as an evil fuck in your own town cos you're a murderous thieving cunt but you're regarded as a saint in the next town for saving a gaggle of their loli from a wolf/rapist.
bf9ddf No.16065353
Just make a fucking faction reputation system and let the player figure shit out for themselves. There is no point in telling the players they are good or evil, there is no point in tracking that value, there is only point in tracking values of how different factions percieve you because that's what actually matters to the gameplay.
48b39b No.16065406
Morality only works with the DnD good vs bad sort of setting, and then it's pretty much just a general reputation meter.
That said, now that I think of it an actual Karma system might be fun, like do good things and good things happen, do bad things bad things happen, in an over the top sort of manner. Like having bad karma with metal armor while in the rain having a really good chance of getting you fucking hit with a lightning. Good karma default build is being a monk, bad karma build is wearing a powerarmor and 50 good luck charms.
8c94b1 No.16065412
Let the player decide what's good and evil instead of helping 10 old ladies cross the street redeeming you from kicking a toddler in the balls. Also karma systems always have retarded logic like killing a thousand henchmen to reach big bad is not wrong, but if you kill the clearly bad guy that's threatening the world you're evil.
f07625 No.16065415
>kill powder gangers
>good karma
>steal from them whilst they are all dead
>bad karma
bbc8ca No.16065432
>>16065415
One thing that I didn't like about that. I think they just added a generic "if owned by faction, then karma loss" tag to everything instead of "if owned by x faction, then karma loss" tag which would have made more sense. Also, apparently killing a feral ghoul no matter how painful or cruel gets you karma. So immolating them in righteous flames because you hate mutants is good but so is painlessly putting them out of their misery with a 50. bmg round to the head. Should have a system that detects HOW you kill an enemy and dole out karma accordingly, but that would have taken too much time for something so small.
e20536 No.16065439
>>16065123
>>16065318
By using the player as a morality gauge instead of just dropping one into the game and remembering different people have different ideas of morality. Simply slapping good/bad on things never works long term and becomes a joke like the "4 point response" system. You want to question the players beliefs that helping people all the time can lead to disaster and "selective" killing and killing people blindly can do the same.(Is what they are doing truly good or bad?"I don't know but what does the player feel?) sharing the result with the player to be confined in a small space with that choice. By also giving the player as much choice as possible you can increase the helplessness especially when vague situations and unpredictability in moments can leave the player unprepared.
As long as you prevent exploits like savescumming you're pretty much in the green.
8c94b1 No.16065459
>>16065439
>As long as you prevent exploits like savescumming you're pretty much in the green.
That's one thing The Witcher did well, you only find out the horrible consequences of your choices much later so you can't just load the previous save and pretend it never happened.
bbc8ca No.16065464
>>16065439
That would be good. Have a situation where you come across a guy with a broken leg trying to run from something in the forest and he tells you that "someone is trying to kill me," breaking down into tears. A good person would help that man no question then go on with the rest of their day. Later on, say a week or two, you see posters around town saying "killer on the loose" or "killer striking fear into town once more" with a drawing that vaguely looks like the guy you helped. You can try to find this guy you helped to interrogate him about it but if you wait long enough you get a letter that says "thanks for the help, faggot. Leaving this town for good" and hiding a couple coins with blood stained on them. Make it even better, add a random chance that the guy you helped was falsely accused so you can't trust whether he actually was a killer or not.
be2647 No.16065472
>>16065123
>What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system in a game that actually matters and makes sense?
I think a good place to start is to look at how paladins work in D&D. They have to act in lawfully good ways or risk losing their powers because their powers come from their god. In fact, are there any good games where following a deity actually has a meaningful impact on how you play the game? And no, Divinity: OS2 doesn't do it right; the deity that makes you its champion is just flavor text, and almost all dialogues dealing with your deity are word-substituted based on the deity you follow. Following Tir-Cendelius doesn't mean you HAVE to act like an elf (so behaving less like an elf and more like a human, for example, doesn't make you lose elf powers or disempower elves in general [because the elf god is less worshiped, elves get weaker] and empower humans instead [because the human god gets more worship]).
b9901e No.16065481
Alignment based on selfish/selfless and another alignment based on pragmatic/romantic. Have the choices you make fill up one of the 4 bars based on what your decision represents, as opposed to having a tug-of-war between selfish/selfless and pragmatic/romantic. Choices presented to you depend on how much of the respective meter is filled. If every decision you made during the game was pragmatic, you'll get less and less romantic options to pick from, while opening more and more pragmatic ones. You'd be able to let demons steal the souls of the children at the orphanage if it meant ending the demon threat permanently. But if you mixed pragmatic AND romantic decisions, you wouldn't be offered such a choice. And certain people who praise you for being rational while others would condemn you for being heartless.
Of course, a system like this would require good writing so that every choice doesn't devolve into 1) KILL EVERYONE AND LOOT ALL THEIR SHIT 2) I'll take the blame for everyone here so that no one else needs to suffer but me 3) Those who were loyal to the kingdom will not be put on the front lines 4) LET'S ALL GET ALONG! NOW LET'S ALL GATHER AROUND THE BONFIRE, HOLD HANDS AND SING HAPPY SONGS!.
bbc8ca No.16065486
>>16065472
You saying that really makes me wish that Bethesda didn't have their claws on Elder Scrolls or they were more competent. Would be nice to actually be forced to follow the Green Pact if you were Bosmer.
246b9f No.16065524
>>16065412
> Also karma systems always have retarded logic like killing a thousand henchmen to reach big bad is not wrong, but if you kill the clearly bad guy that's threatening the world you're evil.
that's a movie thing and (cinematic) game thing I don't think I've ever seen it happen in a game with a morality system. Can you name any where it does?
04fa48 No.16065546
>>16065123
Rather than an objective measure of "good" or "evil", each person should have their own opinion of your morality level, just like in real life. For example, both sides of a conflict believe what they are doing is just, so you will be seen as a hero towards whatever side you end up helping- though some on either side may not strongly dislike you unless you do something especially heinous. If you start a donation program for a starving village 99% of people will see you as a good person, and there could be 1 guy who dislikes you for creating a population dependent on outside help for survival, and may suspect you plan to use this dependence against them to manipulate them into doing shit for you (which you should totally be able to do because that brand of evil is not often explored and is totally radical).
So basically you have a different morality meter for each unique npc. Mooks from various factions could probably all share one for each faction though.
b08a35 No.16065549
>>16065123
Ultima 4's virtue system was the first morality system in vidya, and to this day one of the most complex. The only problem with its application to the modern game design structure is that you cannot properly advance along an evil path.
This is where you might bring Ultima 6's alternate virtues into play, along with U7 - Serpent Isle's 3rd set of virtues for yet more alien morality, but the problem is that none of these path are inherently badguy-ish
U9's planned scenario had situations in which you would have to prioritize the virtues, which could in turn lead to breaking them. A pity about the final product.
Jade Empire's philosophies being depicted in lore as neither good nor evil, along with the last boss being open palm, set the stage for actually examining the validities of alternative moralities. Unfortunately the scenario writing brought it down to good vs evil.
Mass Effect was at first an examination of idealism vs pragmatism. Do you maintain the knight in shining armor routine or do you get shit done in a ruthless way?
Warcraft's alignments eventually gave way to nuanced factionalism. Then they went to stupid, but still.
Star Wars's light/dark side does something interesting when you're willing to treat it as shades of gray: Your alignment has less to do with your faction than you might think. Han is an interplanetary criminal and the kind of guy who shoots first to get out of a conflict; a distinct dark side leaning. Meanwhile, Boba Fett hunts criminals and tries to bring them in alive; regardless of who he's working for his actions are distinctly light side in nature.
But then, perhaps true light and dark are for jedi and sith alone.
Epic Mickey was originally going to slide you between modern goody two shoes Mickey and rat bastard prankster classic Mickey depending on your actions.
Maybe we need a morality system that takes inspiration from the likes of Venture Bros.
48b39b No.16065579
>>16065549
>Ultima 4's virtue system was the first morality system in vidya, and to this day one of the most complex.
Never played it, how is it?
ac8236 No.16065635
>>16065549
>Ultima 4's virtue system was the first morality system in vidya, and to this day one of the most complex. The only problem with its application to the modern game design structure is that you cannot properly advance along an evil path.
8 Virtues were pretty well thought out. I don't like Bethesda treating evil just like an alternate equal path. Ultimately people put up with you despite being a complete dick often for no reason.
33ca57 No.16065680
a good morality system should be based on reputation rather than karma
probably something like this:
morality - good or evil (farmers, lone wanderers and other people with a more simple world view will judge you mostly based on this)
lawfulness - pro or anti authority (regardless of morality authority figures will likely see you as a threat if you won't follow their rules)
martial prowess - how powerful in combat people percieve you to be, having high martial prowess means lowlifes won't tangle with you but others may feel threatened by your presence
influence - how well connected people percieve you to be, this will mostly affect how factions react to you (if you have high influence and belong to faction X then faction Y may not be very friendly to you)
e3fe23 No.16065688
>>16065680
That's… actually a great idea.
e14208 No.16065695
>>16065579
You have eight virtues that are tracked individually. At the start of the game, you're given a series of moral questions that each weigh two of the virtues against each other. Once the game starts, however, you're expected to find a working balance to build up all of them, because you need all eight to get into all the dungeons and finish the game. Some of these can be pretty inconvenient; for example, running from battles reduces your Valor, but killing defeated enemies (which nets greater rewards) reduces your Compassion. You can gain both by beating enemies and letting them run away, but that leaves you weaker.
b08a35 No.16065699
>>16065579
you had 8 different virtues like valor (never run in the face of battle, kill evil enemies) and compassion (allow retreating enemies to run, give alms to the poor), etc.
here's a wiki link with the full ingame implementation:
http://wiki.ultimacodex.com/wiki/Virtues_in_Ultima_IV
Ultima 5's villain, Lord Blackthorn, took those virtues and made them the law of the land, then gave extreme and contextually specific punishments for failing to uphold them (give to the poor or you shall be made poor, etc).
And you can't even properly hate him for it because he only did it because he idolizes you, the Avatar, the living embodiment of the virtues, so much. Also his soul's been corrupted by three shadowlords.
All this in the 1980s
If you'd like to actually give it a shot, Ultima 4 is available for free on GOG. If the controls are a tad too arcane for you, look up a program called xu4
42cb5f No.16065700
>>16065123
>What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system in a game that actually matters and makes sense?
48b39b No.16065711
>>16065695
>>16065699
That sounds pretty cool, I'll give it a try someday.
b08a35 No.16065740
Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>16065700
>Alpha Protocol
the only game where smoking cigars with the villain in the ending felt like a natural outcome of circumstances
Also, it was like a year before anyone discovered that leaving a country halfway through to do missions in another one changed yet more story flow
>Shadow
unironically this! It's a pity it's a mess gameplay-wise because this is exactly how a short-run morality game should be structured; Who are your friends? Who should you side with in the end? Should you side with anyone at all or just pursue your own goals? How your answer these questions through the course of gameplay (and not menus) alters your entire level and story progression.
e14208 No.16065749
>>16065740
Nice clickbait thumbnail.
76c734 No.16065775
Dark Souls morality system is the best out there. There is no morality, just consequences to your actions, be it "good" or "bad", which is dependent of perspective.
6d0e8e No.16065857
>>16065172
>Which I guess is valid, but I'd really like a morality system like Jade Empire, where the moral choices you make will have a tangible effect on the story and the content.
Man, Jade Empire's morality system was such a letdown. It was supposed to be a system where I could finally be an asshole without being evil. It was supposed to be a system where Closed Fist wasn't the stereotypical pointlessly evil villain.
And then they give you a quests where the Closed Fist "paths" are to intentionally fuck up a girl's medicine so you can beat her score in a sparring match, drown an entire fucking city in a diverted river for a handful of money from a wine selling asshole, and…break up a fucking wedding.
What a goddamned shitshow.
2bdc6f No.16065971
>>16065857
What would have been cool had they actually done the open palm/closed fist system properly is that you could be a good or evil person regardless of which path you took.
good open palm
>give a man some food out of the goodness of your heart so he can feed himself and his family
evil open palm
>give a man some food so he becomes dependent on you to feed his family and now he's your slave
good closed fist
>don't give the man a fish because doing so will compel him to better himself by learning to catch his own fish, also improving society in the process
evil closed fist
>don't give the man a fish because fuck him and his shitdick family.
4fbd14 No.16065996
Play the original fallout. Unless you are talking about alignment such as DnD. Even then, it is a gray area. No reason for games to push a black/white, good/evil dichotomy unless there is an agenda behind it.
03ec77 No.16066019
>>16065700
>Shadow the Hedgehog
275ceb No.16066134
Isn't "good vs evil" a jewish concept? The bible's influence on western culture is that if "you do good, you go to heaven" and if "you do bad, you go to hell". Even just using the symbolism of "angels" and "devils" (pic related) are jewish creations.
This yiddish concept is contrasted with how buddhism (aryan religion) influences asian cultures' morality. Over there, they teach if "you are neutral, you reach nirvana" and if "you are not neutral, you get reincarnated until you become neutral".
Both religions promote anti-degeneracy, but go about it differently. You can see this play out in SMT games, where picking the Neutral route is better than picking the nonNeutral routes. To be "good" (Law) or "evil" (Chaos) means you'll side with (((YHVH))) or (((Lucifer))). Teaching you that it's best to have balance.
745f91 No.16066148
You can't, attempting to quantify morality leads to weird shit like "stealing 1000 spoons is equivalent to murdering an innocent old lady".
42cb5f No.16066151
>>16066134
>buddhism (aryan religion)
[Citation fucking needed]
Aryans dropped all of their pagan shit for Christianity (Which denounces everything about Judaism). Even the Asians began dropped Taoism and Buddhism for Christianity because they found it especially fascinating.
f9b9e7 No.16066155
>>16066151
>because they found it especially fascinating.
[citation need]
I don't think you're wrong though, the japs shove christian shit in their media the same way the BBC shoves diversity in their garbage.
2bdc6f No.16066162
>>16066155
>japs shove christian shit in their media
Doesn't Jesus show up in at least one of the xenogear/xenosaga/whatever the fuck games and isn't KOS-MOS Mary Magdalene or something?
246b9f No.16066163
>>16066134
> buddhism (aryan religion)
what the fuck did I miss
e14208 No.16066166
>>16065857
For me, the most ass-backwards moral choice in the game comes from Ru the Boatswain. He's a cowardly drunkard who, with a little convincing, agrees to take you up the river to a pirate stronghold despite the risks. When you get back to town, he reflects on his wasted life and how he used to be a better man.
The logical open palm response would be to tell him he's fine the way he is, since he can obviously still do his job and he's supporting the teahouse by drinking there. In the game, you can tell him to be happy and celebrate with a drink. This leads to him drinking himself to death and gets you nothing.
The logical closed fist response would be to encourage him in his sobriety, since drinking made him weak and gave him an excuse for his cowardice. You can do this, but it gives you open palm points because it's the good guy option.
The third option is to belittle him and call him a drunk, which earns you closed fist points despite making no one stronger.
42cb5f No.16066176
>>16066155
If you want the entire story: https://infogalactic.com/info/Christianity_in_China
<Short version begins on page 83
3ba043 No.16066192
>>16066134
It'd be nice if the asian culture actually supported and followed Buddhist tenets, but that's far from it.
India might be able to call itself a Buddhist or Hindu country, but everywhere else it's either watered down or outright forbidden.
China's government makes sure their people are never reminded of death. They make fucking sure that whatever "religion" their people worship never mentions death, let alone reincarnation or nirvana.
Japan's form of Buddhism is intertwined with ancestor worship and Shintoism. Vietnam is not worth mentioning.
Furthermore, according to Buddhism, Jesus would have been an incarnation of Buddha.
"Good vs Evil" as a concept of internal conflict arose from the bullshit that happened in the Garden of Eden. The apple gave her knowledge of "Good and Evil". Since she knew what was good, and what was evil, she was no longer innocent. Because she was no longer innocent, she and Adam were eternally fucked.
It wasn't that "she wasn't choosing to be good", it's that she suddenly knew she was sinful for multitudes of different things.
Buddhism's doctrine on evil amounting to "everyone is responsible for their own suffering" was effectively trying to fix the giant fucking hole that the old testament left for anyone who didn't know about Jesus. If you're fucked from the beginning, you have to dedicate your entire life, and any life beyond that, to unfuck it. It's from the same exact concept. Buddhism took from the yids and tried to fix what they borrowed.
3ba043 No.16066194
>>16066192
>The apple gave her knowledge of "good and Evil"
her being *Eve
fug.
42cb5f No.16066198
>>16066192
What about Korea and Seon Buddhism?
aca5c2 No.16066199
>>16066134
>aryan religion
Larpaganism is rather embarassing, either go find an actual LARP group, or convert to Eastern Orthodox if you're serious about spirituality.
>>16066163
American mystery meat playing pretend on the internet who thinks that unironically worshiping Odin and Friends will give him a sense of identity and will make him whiter.
>>16066148
A good inspiration would be a system like criminal rating in Vice City, but two dimensional.
246b9f No.16066200
>>16066192
>China's government makes sure their people are never reminded of death. They make fucking sure that whatever "religion" their people worship never mentions death, let alone reincarnation or nirvana.
Why?
f9b9e7 No.16066209
>>16066176
thanks bro, I'll enjoy this read.
I'll draw something to you, what you want?
aca5c2 No.16066212
>>16066200
When people understand death and accept it as a reality of life, it's harder to control them.
If you don't believe in any after life, you will degenerate into clinging to life, at any cost, be it cannibalism, or theft, but you must continue living (for nothing, mindless consumption)
People don't understand freedom, or what it means to be free.
It doesn't mean you can stuff your mouth with food and drink just to puke it out and then eat the puke again, fuck a tranny in his/its axewound or to work 18 hours a day to get money to fuel more and more of your indulgences.
Freedom is not being bound by needs and desires.
a93624 No.16066213
>>16066019
You haven't played the game at all, it had branching paths.
e14208 No.16066215
>>16066163
>>16066199
Reminder that "aryan" can also refer to Indians, and Buddhism orginated in India.
42cb5f No.16066221
>>16066209
I'd say either more Amane, or Blaze the Cat establishing why she's "best girl".
aca5c2 No.16066222
>>16066215
Reminder that contemporary indians are an insight into what USA and the west will look like in a century if nothing is done; sickly, filthy and borderline retarded abominations, that are an affront to the original founders of those lands who were made in God's own image. The brightest (and "whitest") of "yuropeans" will understand what they are leading to immense feeling of self-hatred as well as helplessness.
246b9f No.16066223
>>16066215
>"aryan" can also refer to Indians
>it's actually true
I knew it referred to Iranians (Aryan/Iran) but I had no idea it meant Indians too
>>16066212
Holy fuck even the ME doesn't do that
f9b9e7 No.16066225
>>16066221
quick question, it was explained to me that she was a mascot for torrential downpour, aside from a connection to GG, I have no idea that is.
66aaf7 No.16066227
>>16065412
If you take a Calvinist approach then you can say that henchmen don't have souls and were destined for Hell to begin with. Therefore killing them doesn't matter, but the Big Bad does have a soul and so killing him after knocking him out is bad.
44c2d5 No.16066228
My main issue with them is you are either cartoonishly evil or naive good with no real neutral choices , actually I should add moderate choices as very few games allow you to be so. You can't be a good guy who isn't a push over and you can't be a bad guy who is pragmatic.
aca5c2 No.16066236
>>16066223
In Islam, where polygamy is acceptable Jihad is a release valve for beta males.
>Chadmet bin Thundercock has 4 wives
>that leaves 3 sexually frustrated losers because nature likes balance and unless you fuck up through magic of Socialism, you'll have around equal ratio of men to women. (China had centrally planned families and there's 120 men for every 100 women)
>They read quaran
>Go abroad and conquer them, i dunno, you might get an exotic wife or 5, worst case scenario you die and get more virgins (that's really good) than you can count, I mean, have you ever counted to 72?
4b44b4 No.16066238
>>16065123
As other anons have pointed out, one of the better systems is to not have one at all(or have it hidden from the player). While a Bioware game, Dragon Age Origins didn't have a good/evil meter, and yet you were still forced in making moral choices, but you were never told that one was good and one was evil, still it had some impact on your companions and some might try to kill you for doing something they disagree with. Other games that do it are Witcher and to a lesser extent Gothic(besides joining the camps, you didn't really have moral choices, besides being a dick or a huge dick).
>>16066192
An interesting difference between Buddhism and Christianity, is what to do with daily problems. Buddhism tells you detach yourself from them, as they only bring more suffering, while Christianity tells you to offer your problems to Christ for He will help you solve them and won't ask anything in return. You could also say that it's another difference between meditation(detachment) and praying(asking for help). I am not saying one is better than the other, just pointing out a difference.
42cb5f No.16066242
>>16066222
But, aside from when Buddha was teach and during the time King Asoka ruled, I thought India has always been shit.
>>16066225
Basically, that's been it, thus far. There hasn't been much else elaborated on here character beyond being Japanese, exists as a TD mascot, hates butchering of Japanese culture.
44c2d5 No.16066244
>>16066238
One thing I loved in Origins if you had persuasion high enough you could legit bullshit your way through the game dialogue wise.
f9b9e7 No.16066302
>>16066242
I'll have to get back to you on that, sleepy time,
7616ca No.16066303
>>16065546
A morality system that lets you pick a morality at the beginning and then judges you by the actions you take compared to the morality you picked could be interesting. Like the character is judging himself on his moral outlook vs his action.
ead3e8 No.16066311
>>16065700
>>16065740
>>16066019
Anyone who is autistic enough to actually dig deep into the Shadow game (Someone exactly like me) would know that from the standpoint of integrating Morality into a Game. The Shadow game takes the concept and did as many things with it as possible
While you can criticizes the game all you want, there is no denying that every single aspect of the games design is centered around the morality system. and or being edgy
>Performing Good or Evil action's gives access to an energy surge, with a unique power for both Good or Evil.
>Every level in the game has 2 to 3 missions aligned to Hero, Dark, or Neutral. Doing any mission changes the path you go down which decides which level you play next.
>The backdrop of the game is a war between the Aliens and Humanity, the missions you do will change who is winning the war nearing the later levels or if Shadow is even paying attention to the war whatsoever.
>Since every level has missions that change the path you can go down, there are 10 endings and 326 different possible paths to take, all individually named and listed in the game.
>Along with neutral points, There are Hero and Dark points you get during the level that has you prioritizes what mission you want to do and strategies accordingly, since one type of points will subtract from the other upon completing a Hero or Dark mission.
>There's also like 5 theme songs all related to the games morality
honestly it's one of the most engaging uses of Morality i'v seen in a game.
44c2d5 No.16066317
>>16066311
The fact Ow the edge has a better morality system then most games makes my mind melt.
26bfc2 No.16066327
Evil actions provide the player with immediate benefit. Ethical actions provide the player with nothing. If the player wants to be morally good, they should need to accept that their only rewards will be that they did the right thing despite giving up potential personal gain.
ead3e8 No.16066334
>>16066317
While Sonic Team rarely sticks the landing perfectly, they always put a shit ton passion and effort into their games, you just have to be willing to look past the obvious flaws, to notice their is a ton to appreciate beneath the surface. That's the main reason the Sonic fanbase just wont fucking die, there is just a ton of shit to get invested in.
a9f517 No.16066357
>>16066213
That don't mean shit because there's a true ending
2130a2 No.16066412
>>16066317
The most depressing part is the same re-used 3 or 4 bosses with every fucking path, and it still does a better job presenting depth with a morality system compared to say ass effect.
2130a2 No.16066414
>>16066357
Yeah, the game is still a joke.
d7fca6 No.16066424
Problem with morality system is not the sysgem itself but how easy it is to circunvent or exploit, in guild games you could literally oy vey your way into being good to get the good ending, even if beforehand you got the dark bow from the sacrifice altar, what most games fail to do as well is to implement a consistent morality system, your choices dont really matter because ie you can give water bottles away or gift gold and other stuff to become good again. It really doesnt works like thay, you should be able face the consequences of your acts, loading from a save is another issue entirely, but why save in case you do a choice you dont like when you can flip more than foresking in a jews hand
44c2d5 No.16066535
>>16066412
That's what makes me fucking sad.
d67007 No.16066653
>>16066412
I wish the endings could've been a bit different from each other and showed you a bit of what Shadow would do after standing over the defeated bosses proclaiming who he was. They also could've made the enemies more hesitant to attack you depending on the route you take and which partner you have with you besides a few stages or using the heal gun rather than have everyone just gunning for you no matter what.
8e3865 No.16066707
>>16065130
>Prove me wrong.
burden of proof faggot
b1a7fa No.16066714
>good karma cancelling out bad karma
Good doesn't remove the bad, nor bad the good.
b1a7fa No.16066729
>>16066134
>babby understanding of Christian morality
Good is what God says you should do, if you do as God says you get to be in his presence when you die and are remade, if you go against God then you don't get to be in his presence when you are remade. This world is nothing more than a test of restraint and will. Modern systems of morality have no solid foundation and will always shift over time, everything man made will crumble, what God ordains is eternal.
0b541d No.16066730
>>16066192
>Furthermore, according to Buddhism, Jesus would have been an incarnation of Buddha.
Funny thing is, Buddha is also a Christian Saint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlaam_and_Josaphat
>story of Barlaam and Josaphat or Joasaph is a Christianized and later version of the story of Siddhartha Gautama, who became the Buddha. In the Middle Ages the two were treated as Christian saints, being entered in the Greek Orthodox calendar on 26 August, and in the Roman Martyrology in the Western Church as "Barlaam and Josaphat" on the date of 27 November.
7957cb No.16066731
Alternatively, something that has NEVER been tried is an actor's gauge. The player is asked to fulfill a role and is rewarded when his actions are in line with that role. So if you're playing an evil wizard, you're actually penalized for not being an asshole.
44c2d5 No.16066738
>>16066731
Fuck this sounds like an interesting concept.
b1a7fa No.16066742
>>16066731
D&D has that in some ways, a paladin that moves away from their patron gods alignment loses their divine spells.
6656a0 No.16066787
>>16065123
Maybe instead of starting to design an entire morality system, the first question should be "why?"
Because if it doesn't serve an actual purpose for the game, you might as well not even bother, and if it does serve a purpose, you should make it so it's focused on that.
I've always seen some of Bioware's games narrative and wondered why the heck are we given ALL the morality options at any time. It doesn't make sense that an Evil character would ever even consider a Good option and vice-versa. Neutral at most but that's it. It's even more baffling when you consider sequences like the tutorial of Neverwinter Nights 2 where your companions and you have different dialogue based on your starting alignment.
It makes more sense in these cases that picking an alignment should restrict you to it. Chose Evil? Only Evil choices are available to you. Chose Renegade (in Mass Effect)? Only Renegade options will be available to you.
However since there's always the narrative potential for a character arc focused around the changing of morals, then let players instead pick options that reflect their alignment or are one step from it at most.
Let's say you have Very Evil, Evil, Neutral, Good and Very Good options. An Evil Character can only pick VE, E or N options. You can slowly change to neutral and then to Good but you can't be outright Good right from the start because an Evil character would never even consider such choice.
There's also a live example of something somewhat similar. Vampire the Maskerade Bloodlines has different dialogue depending on your Humanity, giving you some pretty brutal options if you've lost a lot of it.
If however the idea is to have a sandbox game where Morality changes in a more frequent manner, than have it split into Values instead.
Greed vs Charity, Wrath vs Love, Sloth vs Diligence, etc.
Character short-term actions change those values up to a threshold (giving small gifts gets you to 20% charity at most, insulting someone drops you too -20% Wrath at most).
Character long-term actions give permanent modifiers instead. Exterminating a whole city will give you -100 to Wrath, so in a scale of -100/100 you're best value will be 0 at best.
Your morality score is then an average of these values, meaning you could be overall Good but have some Wrath or be Evil but Diligent.
For roleplaying purposes, you could either restrict the options you have based on your current values as detailed above and/or add some penalties in the form of mental illnesses for doing something that goes against your values too much.Someone that's incredibly greedy would never consider giving out anything, trying to do so should either not be possible or it gives you Dissociative Personality Disorder, in this case making you misjudge the value of everything all the time.
33993d No.16066807
Morality "systems" are inherently bad because it involves reducing something very contextual and character-driven down to a childish metagame. Whether it's the old DnD alignment crap, or Fallout Karma shit, it's absolute cancer that ruins good storytelling.
>>16065157
Not "real", and yet it shapes civilization, while you're inconsequential. One could argue that it's more real than you are.
e4608c No.16066936
>>16065123
>What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system
If you even implement a good/evil morality system your entire game must revolve around it in deign or else it will be shit, I want to say infamous did a good job.
Now if we're talking reputation system Vegas did a decent job.
e4608c No.16066951
>>16065857
As far as moral choices go Bioware was never strong in that department, going back to look at Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 it just isn't there and the reputation system is just retarded. Moving onto KOTOR 1 it didn't improve.
KOTOR 2 could be argued to have a good morality system as it acknowledges helping the poor by just giving to them can in fact fuck them over in the long term, as per the nar shaddaa sequence. I'm not sure the alternative choices were presented well however.
ME1 ultimately had a decent morality system as it never argued about whether you were good or evil, and only really addressed methods but ultimately resulted in being ineffectual to the outcome.
>>16066166
sounds like a tenpenny tower moment
35f4e2 No.16067062
The only way to do a "morality" system is not give you arbitrary good/bad boy points but or just stupid shit having a pop-up "you meanie :(". The way to do it is to have characters call you out on your actions. This way not only do you feels more involved in the world but it actually feels like the one calling into question you deeds isnt the game dev but the characters of the world.
As filthy as it sounds morality is subjective and you doing one "good" action may be a "bad" action towards somebody else. Say you help a faction out and because of it its people prosper but on the other hand what you did made another group suffer.
So instead of having an objective :( and :) system have your action have different effects on different people and what those people say be the thing that actually strikes the player's moral feelings.
711173 No.16067076
>>16065157
Depends on the setting.
44c2d5 No.16067124
>>16066951
>ME1 ultimately had a decent morality system as it never argued about whether you were good or evil, and only really addressed methods but ultimately resulted in being ineffectual to the outcome.
That and you could have options that were neutral and even when Paragon or Renegade the choices felt more grounded in reality and pragmatism.
e0bff0 No.16067129
>>16066134
>"you do good, you go to heaven" and if "you do bad, you go to hell"
ec4c14 No.16067178
>>16067062
Morality isn't subjective, the thing is, devs associate "moral = feels good" and "evil = feels bad", whereas in reality moral choices are often painful, while immoral are rather pleasant.
0e57d7 No.16067215
Morality systems are gay because they judge you based on a global set of taboos and such with no space for compromise or potential justification. It reminds me how in Dishonored the prim and proper non-lethal way of dispatching one of your assassination targets which prevents chaos from breaking all over the city is to subdue her and then give her to some creep who wants to make her a sex slave on his private island. Good job, hero.
Faction-based morality systems where different groups of people hold the morality of some actions in different regards make more sense as they aren't as restrictive in terms of character building and world building, and forcing you to make enemies as you can't be friends with everyone.
But the thing I really would like to see the most in morality systems is to give the player character multiple options for justifying his own actions, rather than the PC's morality solely be defined externally by other characters and factions. Suppose you decide to massacre a bunch of children. Nobody knows you did it. But how does your player character justify that to himself? You could tell and even lie to yourself for example:
>They would have come back for revenge, and surely would have killed many more in the future. [Rationality +2, Conscience +1]
>They saw too much. I had to get rid of them so they wouldn't tell on my crimes. [Conscience -2, Empathy -3]
>I deeply regret having ended their lives, I wish I could turn back time and fix it all… [Conscience -6, Empathy +1]
>Deus Vult. [Piety +3, Conscience +1, Rationality +3]
>I just felt like it. [Empathy -5, Conscience +2]
>[Lie] Those kids were far worse than me. I could hear them plotting how they would eat my corpse. [Rationality +2, Conscience +1, Sanity -10]
Alternatively you could just not bother with a reason for your actions at all, which can be interpreted as becoming a chaotic neutral and operating solely on instinct.
35f4e2 No.16067226
>>16067178
>moral choices are often painful, while immoral are rather pleasant.
Thats not true at all and in fact its the fucking opposite. We feels something called empathy which makes us feels good when we do what we identify as the morally good thing to do whiles it makes us feels bad if we do that which would hurt others. If what you say is true the default average Joe would be a bad person and thats not true. Most people are by default kind (whites at least).
ec4c14 No.16067242
>>16067215
>is to subdue her and then give her to some creep who wants to make her a sex slave on his private island. Good job, hero.
What's wrong with that?
>>16067226
lying to people is easier and more pleasant than telling them hard truths, saying "you're fine the way you are" instead of giving advice and help on how to improve takes less effort
Indulging in carefully engineered trash food that makes you into a blob is more pleasurable (temporarily) than maintaining a diet
0e57d7 No.16067254
>>16067242
>What's wrong with that?
It's a bit hypocritical to imply that by directly decapitating her it will be considered a Bad action which contributes to an intensified rat plague and more deaths in general, whereas sending her off to live the rest of her life as a sex slave against her will is considered a Better action. She probably deserved what's coming to her either way, but the non-lethal method of disposing of her is extremely cheeky in how it you keep your hands 'clean'.
35f4e2 No.16067270
>>16067242
>ying to people is easier and more pleasant than telling them hard truths, saying "you're fine the way you are" instead of giving advice and help on how to improve takes less effort
Everyone wants to say whats on their mind. Thats just the nature of our thoughts and you feel bad when somebody rejects your ideas. Its a struggles between to "good" choices, not between bad and good. One hurts the person's emotions whiles improving them overall, you still dont do it because of your empathy doesnt want to make the person feel bad. But you also know that it will be positive in the long run. This is a case of empathy being in conflict with itself, not that you are being bad or cruel in both cases. And that is entirely within the context of the other person, not you. The more direct example would be you stealing. Stealing would directly benefit you and make it easy but your empathy prevents you from doing so because you feel bad over taking something that somebody could value. Empathy is both a virtue and a burden and thats why its so very much subjective.
>Indulging in carefully engineered trash food that makes you into a blob is more pleasurable (temporarily) than maintaining a diet
That has no context of morality and empathy, everything is entirely internal to you as a person.
e0bff0 No.16067332
>>16067178
>devs associate "moral = feels good" and "evil = feels bad"
You mean, moral choices make other people feel good and immoral choices make other people feel bad.
1fc70a No.16067490
>>16066134
No plenty of religions and cultures have a good vs. evil concept.
73a7c4 No.16067538
>>16067226
>empathy
I see /pol/ hasn't disabused you of the notion that nonwhites don't have empathy. But even when it comes to whites, I see plenty of whites trying to virtue signal about shit like trannyism, which is clearly immoral, degenerate, and just plain fucking wrong. Your error is confusing the map for the territory; empathy isn't morality, it's a tool that aids in making moral judgments. But looking at how many whites think it's better to promote the 60% tranny suicide rate than actually put a stop to that shit, it's pretty clear that empathy is easy to exploit to nefarious ends.
6458a3 No.16067606
>>16065130
>there's no point to an added layer of complexity for the player to manage in a role playing game, prove me wrong
Your premise is wrong, so there is nothing to argue. You're an idiot, Harry.
246b9f No.16067641
>>16066787
>I've always seen some of Bioware's games narrative and wondered why the heck are we given ALL the morality options at any time. It doesn't make sense that an Evil character would ever even consider a Good option and vice-versa. Neutral at most but that's it. It's even more baffling when you consider sequences like the tutorial of Neverwinter Nights 2 where your companions and you have different dialogue based on your starting alignment.
>It makes more sense in these cases that picking an alignment should restrict you to it. Chose Evil? Only Evil choices are available to you. Chose Renegade (in Mass Effect)? Only Renegade options will be available to you.
Pathfinder Kingmaker does this
0661fd No.16067650
various surprising consequences either way seems to be the way to go
69b03f No.16067671
>>16065123
>What's a good way to make a Good/Evil system in a game that actually matters and makes sense?
any system that rewards the middle ground, because that's the most realistic one, in reality opportunistic assholes win most, it also would work as a gameplay element, because you'd had to balance
f5fa6f No.16067704
I'd rather not have a meter that says "You're a nice/You're a mean", but have my choices actually impact the story in certain ways. For example, sparing people in assassinations missions can make your boss super mad, but the people you spare may give you a hand or make certain equipment available to you in other missions. Or going guns blazing can cause your agency to give you non-lethal equipment only for your next mission because you've made such a mess before.
b00c8d No.16067716
>>16065546
Could use an allignment chart like in D&D and assign certain actions to correspond to those allignments. Then flag each npc as being a part of that allignment and then each npc judges you on that criteria. Then you end up with a good and evil dynamic where good people have good allies and evil enemies and evil people have evil allies and evil enemies.
659c6c No.16067719
>>16066707
Burden of proof always lies with the moralizers, because there exists no evidence of their opinions being universal, and objectively correct.
0e085e No.16067797
>>16067062
>the one calling into question you deeds isnt the game dev but the characters of the world
A game where the world you are in has a fucked up morality, with different races having different stimulus would be interesting.Maybe the humans are just like you but every other race/species has a completely different view on what is good or evil.
Either way, games that force you to do horrible things and it disturbs you are what i consider the "true" evil route as far as games are concerned.Evil is what a person avoids, what causes him suffering or pain.Playing as a bad guy and having fun(wich you would if you choose the option in the first place) is the same as a kid playing as a robbber in cops and robbers.That is fine, but sometimes i don't want that and what i want is a game that makes me feel disturbed or bad about what i just did.Games are limited since, at the end, everything is fake but there is potential.
>>16066807
>Morality "systems" are inherently bad because it involves reducing something very contextual and character-driven down to a childish metagame. Whether it's the old DnD alignment crap, or Fallout Karma shit, it's absolute cancer that ruins good storytelling.
This is truth, it always end up feeling very shallow and childish.
6d0e8e No.16067824
>>16067719
>Burden of proof always lies with the moralizers
Ignoring the subject of your morals, your understanding of simple philosophical topics such as "burden of proof" is apparently very stunted.
26a746 No.16067833
>>16066729
>what God ordains is eternal
33993d No.16067870
>>16067833
Damn that's messed up. Some of those collars are too wide and can easily be slipped off.
53f4eb No.16067934
>>16066729
Das rite, we wuz Jews.
2d2059 No.16067953
Good vs Evil?
I think slutty vs virgin is better.
Morality should be measured by how much you fuck people. If you sleep around a lot, commit netorare, fuck animals, etc then the game should register you as a bad person who is more sensitive to lust based attacks. Virgins would have to obstain from sex, therefore not be able to fap, but gain rewards.
4b40aa No.16069029
>>16066731
Damn that's an interesting concept.
>>16066742
You need a DM for that though, singleplayer games are only "D&D" in the battles consisting of numbers everywhere.
9c8724 No.16069357
>>16067953
Hey buddy I think you're on the wrong board, >>>/hgg/ is two blocks down.
5cd99f No.16069418
Atheism is illogical, irrational and debunked.
Christianity is the truth, and the only way to make sense of the world.
2130a2 No.16069432
>>16066653
Shadows the Edgehog is a bad meme game that only exists because of an internet poll, they censored the game on purpose to promote the new E10+ rating after going hard on the concept of a dynamic furfag action game, it's amazing it turned out to be playable even though it's repetitive and ugly as fuck, being shit out by the remnants of the american branch.
ead3e8 No.16069471
>>16069432
I'll be completely honest I enjoy The Shadow game allot, I Think of if as what if Sonic CD's style was done in 3D.
You can just get to the end of the level, but that will only get you a neutral ending, to get the most out of the game, the game asks you to pay attention to the level design, and actually plan your route though the level and focus on what your objective is.
I always enjoyed getting A ranks in the Adventure era games, and I find how each level in Shadow gives you different objectives to be really fun since your not always doing the same thing.
I get that the game is quite flawed, But I still have allot of fun with it.
4547b8 No.16069513
>>16065123
Evil isn't really evil, just let me do things and put natural consequences to that. For example, if I hurt people make them fear me, if I am super charming and super violent, make people that know what I do super intimidated but strangers wouldn't know. etc.
Get rid of psychic town guards and how every good NPC tries to kill you on sight forever. That shit has to go.
Add fame, where even if you are max bad, but not famous for it, then no one would know. Like if you torture a follower you lock in your house, you don't earn intimidation for that.
Add an intimidation factor, and a toughness factor. If you are an 8 intimidating, but they are a 9 toughness for instance, they would fight you or your intimidation attempts would fail.
Add faction alliances for determining intimidation. Public, followers, racial groups, clans, organizations, genders etc. If you always only kill blacks make blacks fear you more.
Add black market merchants that may get intimidated but still sell if they can. Like shops in bad parts of town, you are telling me no one in a fallout world can figure out how to make a Detroit liqueur store with pictures on the outside wall and a dispenser? In most of the games where being evil is a thing, it's a wasteland or crazy shit is happening, or you have access to the whole universe. Put in a fucking red light district that doesn't give a shit how tough you think you are.
Add dialog options for actually being bad. Let me haggle prices up because I am scary but maybe they won't trade with me again or their prices get worse. Let me bribe law. Make lawmen afraid to come after me.
Absolutely do not keep spawning sheriffs and cops forever. Fucking Rockstar. I blow up a train and shoot everyone on it and snipe 50 people in the town then blow up 20 lawmen with homing tomahawks, no jackass sheriff is going to come after me. If you pass certain bad criteria either send in the army, or make people beg.
Here's one better, if I want to kill everyone why not let me? Have it impact the game. If a town is wiped out then make others step up their presence or become unfriendly to anyone they haven't met yet. If you lived out west and a whole neighboring town was killed by outlaws and then some new guy rides into town you're going to get your gun and shut your windows, not ignore the person completely.
If I don't want niggers in my settlement, let me kill them. If people don't like it they can leave but why the fuck would everyone in FO4 suddenly try to kill me when I saved them all and fought off armies? How would the other settlements know? Why would so many people with pipe pistols be willing to throw their lives away against a tyrannical god? Where did they get such strict morals form out in the wasteland? I call horse shit.
e161e2 No.16069541
One that is less Good/Evil and one that's more akin to the ethics of the world. Basically a political compass where the four ideologies are replaced with philosophies established in the game
e161e2 No.16069544
>>16069541
I-I was supposed to crop that image
e14208 No.16069792
>>16066731
NetHack does exactly that.
ce0bab No.16069828
>>16067606
>an added layer of complexity for the player to manage in a role playing game
>reducing things like social status, individual relationships, and reputation to a bar saying "you've been naughty" or "you've been good"
>an added layer of complexity
25444b No.16073878
>>16065152
It also has the karma perks, which are fucking annoying because of how easy it is to get good karma, unless you want the good karma perk then you're in luck. If you want either of the others your choices are to steal, kill, or continuously use an owned terminal until you're at the karma level you want.
Or you just use console commands, like me.
0ba20e No.16073888
>>16065157
t. Decisive Tang strategic victory
25444b No.16073935
>>16065157
You heard it here first. It is now okay to fuck children and murder anyone who annoys you.
26ac28 No.16074606
>>16067833
>he thinks all people and subhumans understand or desire freedom
>he thinks all would use their freedom properly.
b510c9 No.16074689
>>16073935
General confusion between morality, ethics, and karma.
Even in academia, it's acceptable to pretend morality and ethics have the same definitions and different ones within the same paragraph.
Many people here are arguing against magic morality (karma) because successfully stealth picking some lock shouldn't subtly affect NPCs.
Morality and karma are distinct but bad writers and pretend-devs have reinforced this clown world definition.
Personally my favorite of bullshit morals in games are the ones where there is a situation where both choices ought to be considered good ones.
Then they make the less good choice the evil one simply because the better option exists.
Giant evil space lizard is terrorizing a space colony so you slay it. -5 goodboy points.
Do obscure secret alternative solution where the lizard and the people can live in harmony. +5.
9b7858 No.16074843
Contextualized reputation system like in pathologic
452eeb No.16074917
Dont allow a way for you to counter act it by giving someone water. Rather than have a good/bad system have it where the person you affected in a set story subsequently leads to consequences in that story or possibly affect another by having them be a friend of that person or something. You could also have a reputation system like Fallout New Vegas.
452eeb No.16074920
>>16074843
Does Pathologic have gameplay or is it a narrative gocused game?
bbc8ca No.16074944
Regarding New Vegas' Karma system, I found that if you fail the speech checks against Lanius but have good Karma, you can pass a special check that appeals to his sense of honor allowing you to fight him one on one instead of against him and the Praetorians. Little interesting factoid if anyone wants to use that for their melee build I guess.
0821c6 No.16075029
My only issue with morality shit is situations like Tenpenny tower.
I never played the original Deus Ex games. Only MD and HR, but at least they let you shape your own moral compass with your decisions for each situation. The effects of your actions are shown by other people's reactions and not some arbitrary morphing of your character's stats/appearance.
If you want to be a good boi when it comes to dealing with the police you can do that. If you want to kill all the gang members like you're fucking robocop you can do that as well. It's like you're playing a role almost. Like a role-playing game.
728023 No.16075239
>>16066134
This post is retarded but what if we ditched the good/evil paradigm for a morality system and instead used something like light vs dark where neither is bad or good and both relate to each other? It's not a "challenge" to be good with an easy way out being "evil" or something like that. Instead it's a question of achieving balance between them or being out of balance?
42cb5f No.16075286
>>16075239
>Instead it's a question of achieving balance between them or being out of balance?
The one problem is that the only path to achieving "balance" in real life is to suffer.
728023 No.16075318
>>16075286
So the "balance" option is more difficult. That works. There would be benefits and drawbacks (mostly drawbacks) to imbalance. It's easier to be out of balance but maybe you're less powerful.
3ddf9e No.16075332
>>16073935
>It is now okay to fuck children and murder anyone who annoys you
Isn't this pretty much LaVey Satanism?
fc0e0e No.16075336
>>16073935
What game is your image from?
90c304 No.16076203
Morality should be reputation based instead and adhering to your own morals will provide sanity or degradation should you fail.
6a8a07 No.16076474
>>16066212
>If you don't believe in any after life, you will degenerate into clinging to life, at any cost, be it cannibalism, or theft, but you must continue living (for nothing, mindless consumption)
Lies, and Damned Lies, and the Faggots Who Tell Them. Your horseshit is just what degenerates say to justify their vile proclivities.
9b7858 No.16076488
>>16074920
Narrative focused game, second is survival management like storing food and other supplies and also the npc economy of exchanging water for bandages form drunks and trading whit kids (eg. accorns for bullets and drugs), combat is piss and shit. But on this game, your desitions matter.
10c672 No.16076688
Why would you make this thread? It always becomes a mind numbing mall ninja circlejerk.
308bed No.16076820
>>16065130
To be honest the best morality shit are those that you don't see affecting the game until much later on or in ways you wouldn't think of. For example, being nice to Johnny the guard in MGS3 or avoiding lethal kills in earlier sections before getting to the mountain climb (if you assassinate everyone, the troops will be out for your blood, in higher numbers and better equipped), or how in TWEWY approaching shop owners frequently will get them to open up to you and offer you better stuff, as well as complimenting your choice of apparel. They make you feel immersed in the game without being set on some sort of arbitrary meter.
dd4929 No.16076850
>>16076548
I dont know how to tell you this but George Washington was not, in fact, the sole arbiter of truth.
e14208 No.16076923
>>16075336
Looks like Civ 4 with a custom modded leader.
308bed No.16076947
>>16073935
>>16075336
It's from a Civ IV mod that allows a shitton of civs active all at the same time, one of them being Hitler's.
246b9f No.16076990
>>16076474
>Degenerates aren't Athiest in nature
ab1f29 No.16077101
>>16075239
>>16075318
Play Jade Empire, lament that Bioware used the concept and dropped it for budget reasons.
061a86 No.16077165
>>16076990
They worship satan.
f6b65e No.16077179
>>16077165
>atheists don't believe in God
>therefore they believe in something that only exists if God was real
Seriously, you religious fundamentalists are hilariously retarded. If only you said what you're about to post at least 3 times before you did so, maybe you'd save yourself the embarassment.
061a86 No.16077193
>>16077179
> If only you said what you're about to post at least 3 times before you did so, maybe you'd save yourself the embarassment.
Maybe you should've. I'm saying they aren't atheist, but satanist. I hope you're only pretending to be retard.
6d6e23 No.16077205
>>16077179
you fags want to destroy the order and replace it with something that was created by amoral kikes. Offer something worth doing instead of just stewing in some jew mind trap trying to push everyone down to your misery because you hate your traditions and race due to a shitty family filled with social dregs like you.
e19d57 No.16077253
>>16065123
going full neutral may not have been a good idea
9a7014 No.16077289
>>16066311
>>16066317
>>16066412
Except for the fact that the morality system is completely useless and has major flaws:
<There's a Last story, so you're choice does not matter, making the morality system entirely meaningless.
<Good and bad guys will attack you no matter what allegiance you're on.
<Some plotlines get dropped and/or introduced at the drop of a hat depending on the path you take.
<Some cutscenes can make 0 sense given the context of the path you choose.
<The Hero and Dark missions suck 90% of the time.
<Chaos Blast and Chaos Control can be DETRIMENTAL in certain missions for their respective allegiances.
<You have to do an entire path TWICE in order to get a single ending.
I've played this shitty game enough to unlock expert mode, and it infuriates me that the best way to play this game is locked behind garbage content and isn't the way the game is.
If Shadow the Hedgehog is seriously the best portrayal of a morality system, then the bar is *really* fucking low.
9a7014 No.16077298
>>16077289
I forgot to mention that, in some missions, you HAVE to attack members of your own allegiance just to progress.
9a7014 No.16077303
>>16077298
Why the fuck did I spoiler that shit? fml.
6d0e8e No.16077314
>>16077303
Because you're too used to Reddit and confused the usage of asterisks.
d4c6e9 No.16077315
>>16065486
Buffs and debuffs for following the Divines/Daedra and doing things they would approve of for each one would be a great mechanic if done right.
71d29b No.16077394
>>16065123
A reputation system is all you need. If you eat babies then the baby-eating advocates will like you, the baby-protecting advocates will hate you, people who don't give a shit about babies won't care either way and if you protect babies then the inverse is true but the baby-neutral faction still won't care.
b7a3d5 No.16077413
>>16077205
What else is there to do beying cocaine and fucking?
t. fedora pro.
ead3e8 No.16077474
>>16077289
Like i'v said the game is by no means perfect, but I still think it's a game that should have been learned from, the is allot of potential to the systems the game uses if they were refined.
not really talking about the story or the gameplay itself (even if those are things I enjoy) but just the way the game handles it's progression adds a ton of replayablity.
While I agree that Expert mode is the best part of the game, I feel it's better being a reward after all the hard work a player puts into Mastering the game, A final Challenge to test their skills.
dd4929 No.16077597
>>16077145
Are you going to level some actual arguments are you just going to repeat your authority fallacy?
42cb5f No.16077760
>>16077597
>Complaining about "authority falacy"
>Previously said: >>16076850
<George Washington was not, in fact, the sole arbiter of truth.
>Post Francis Bacon, the founder of the scientific method
<Stop posting the wisdom of experienced men who make points that go against my own, make an actual argument
All the original argument was is this: >>16076474 An anon stating that people who believe that religion and morals are related, and that the absence of one will result in the loss of the other, are complete faggots.
c8ae4c No.16077872
A morality system based on Shinto would be interesting. It would be corruption type system, you'd start out being pure but every time you wound or get wounded you'll gain a tsumi point. Being pure would have certain benefits (can make use of divine power, higher resistance to curses, less likely to attract yokai, 10% critical hit vs a 1% critical miss chance) while being unclean gives the opposite effects. Being purified at a shrine would remove all tsumi points.
>be a faithful and pure samurai
>exhorting tenants for lord
<peasant throws a rock at you and hit, bruising the muscle
<gain tsumi and lose all blessings
<on the way back you get attacked by oni
>>16066151
>>16066163
Because it was founded by an aryan warrior prince?
c698a6 No.16078257
Two notable examples of morality I can think of are both from Roguelikes.
Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup:
>Every god grants you important powers but has their own code of conduct
>"Good" gods punish any "evil" acts (read: useful combat tactics like poisoning or debuffing enemies), Zin goes even further and forbids using spells or items with random (chaotic) effects
>Neutral and especially evil gods generally don't care as long as you don't go against the element or concept they represent
>All gods punish players who stop worshipping them except for good gods, who allow transfers among themselves and won't punish the player for leaving unless they convert to an evil god later in the game
Tales of Maj'Eyal:
>all forms of magic draw energy from other worlds, some good, some very, very bad
>one faction bans magic, only allows the use of powers drawn from the natural human world
>If you know any spells or have magical runes equipped they will be hostile
>If you join them you are completely unable to use magical abilities and are locked out of using a third of the game's equipment because it's enchanted, but get healing powers and can block magic attacks through force of will
>>16066192
>>16077872
I'd be very interested in a system that measures "purity" with perks and drawbacks to both sides. I guess Bloodborne plays with it a bit in that you have limited stat points so if you want to be a corrupted edgy gunslinger or an enlightened arcane user you have to commit to that build. In terms of an actual meter for it Fable 2 had purity tracked seperately from morality so you could be a douchebag who only eats tofu and veggies and has an attractive but eerie appearance or a fat slobby do-gooder who stuffs himself with pies and steaks
9a7014 No.16078290
>>16077474
I just feel like there are games that have far better morality systems than Shadow. I don't play many games with morality systems so I don't exactly know.
6045c6 No.16078360
I don't like morality systems in most games because they basically imply you have to play a specific way and they give unrealistic results of them.
Everything goes well for the person choosing the good morally options and everything goes poorly for the person choosing the morally bad options. Most moral options end up being instant gratification vs delayed gratification. Where you do something mean and get $20 or if you do something nice you get $40 later.
ead3e8 No.16078397
>>16078290
I just enjoy how the Morality is integrated and themed around the gameplay, It it's not like the end of a level you have some arbitrary decision that branches the path, you actually do something that has an effect on where you are, even if the story hardly seems to care what you do, I enjoy that the missions you do have a little bit of story to them, and how Shadow is never really that out of character no matter what you deiced to do.
But that's just me, I'v simply been a fan of the game since it's release, I'm not one to care much about it's objective flaws.
0bec24 No.16078729
>>16065192
I like the idea of mira and psycho wookie. A good deed damned her to be chased and hunted by him forever, instead of the regular good deeds helping people always benefiting you in games.
bd559c No.16078755
ac8236 No.16081852
>>16074689
>Morality and karma are distinct but bad writers and pretend-devs have reinforced this clown world definition.
What about "morality" system meant to illustrate how much a clown world the world has become? Like being part of the "religion of peace" means that you can away with almost everything.
42cb5f No.16081866
>>16081852
>What about "morality" system meant to illustrate how much a clown world the world has become?
b42464 No.16083090
2bdc6f No.16092557
>>16069541
I've never liked this kind of 2d political spectrum due to it claiming that anti-authoritarian leftism exists. Every social, political, and economic system that can be described as left wing is inherently authoritarian as they all involve some level of coercion or confiscation of property/wealth by a strong, central authority
d5947f No.16092571
>>16078257
Didn't ToME censor a lot of the content about morality and gods because it offended people? I also remember stuff about demons being censored.