2a4c04 No.14813000
Does anyone else find the concept of audio logs really contrived and an example of terrible design?
I understand their purpose since it's to let the developer tell the story to the player so they can take it in at their own pace and in a way that doesn't get in the way of gameplay. But I just find it really odd that dozens of people just happen to keep extensive audio dairies where they confess all of their plans and just leave them laying around for you to find. It feels weird since I've never met a single person irl who would admit to keeping an audio diary (I know they exist I've just never met them) and it's only in vidya I see dozens of them.
I also think they make the storytelling at times feel really passive and like the backstory and motivations of the characters are a completely different thing to the actual plot that you're doing. I saw this most blatantly with Metal Gear Solid 5 since it had no codec conversations and instead had audio tapes you listen to from all the characters that discuss the backstory. I really disliked this because without listening to them you won't really get a sense as to who any of the characters really are. Like you won't understand why Kazuhira wants to suddenly house a ton of children unless you read his audio diary. Whereas in previous Metal Gear Solid games Codec calls were done in the moment and felt like often carried dramatic weight to them. (See the moment in MGS1 where Naomi talks about Frank Jaeger. If that was an audio log would anyone really give a shit? Everyone would've gone "Who's Grey fox why is that such a big deal?")
There's a single example I can think of that took the concept of audio logs and put an interesting spin on it which was F.E.A.R. In that game audio logs are instead voicemails characters sent to each other before the events of the game. Why this is great is that the voicemails are often out of context and tell the story non-linearly. They also have conversations between each other in voicemails and you'll often have to wait til a much later level until you get to hear the full context. (For example you hear Harlan Wade speak to several characters in voicemails but you don't get to hear what they said to him back til way later in the game when you get to his office and he has like 10 voicemails). The actual story-line to the game I wouldn't say is anything special but the way it's told makes it feel like a puzzle you keep uncovering a new piece of.
a5d5c1 No.14813015
it's whatever I guess, talentless video game developers dont want to spend money on cut scenes or animating character interactions anymore so this is what we get instead of a meaningful way of driving a story forward. They aren't going away anytime soon so the only thing I can wish for is they stop making these audio logs so damn long, squeeze what you need to say in a minute, put the audio log in an area that is already going to have downtime and leave it at that
6ef045 No.14813049
>>14813015
>cutscenes suck
>audio logs suck too
>wtf i love cutscenes now
119111 No.14813055
Bioshock Infinite has the most egregious example of audio diaries.
Fun Fact: Vox is Latin for voice and Phone is Greek for voice.
f5bc66 No.14813068
>>14813000
Yeah, I agree. Prototype is a good example, basically you're doing other shit like fighting monsters and kicking helicopters all while a bunch of random audio is playing. Like no one gives a shit about this, just shut up and let me kick helicopters.
95e287 No.14813083
>>14813000 (checked)
While story in video games are not always bad. I generally hate all story in video games. At leas in terms of design consideration.
I believe all story in video games to be a needless contrivance. If you need a story to motivate your player then the game is not fun on its own accord. Therefore plot motivation is inherently lazy game design. Therefore you are generally correct with your assessment about audio Logs and even text logs.
However, I don't agree with your issue of the Audio Logs in MGS5. I particularly enjoyed listening to them and do not see them as a poorly implemented example of the overall trend.
95e287 No.14813085
2a4c04 No.14813108
>>14813049
It's more that developers seemingly decided that the actual plot of the game doesn't matter and it doesn't need engaging characters or anything. Just put everything in side content that most players won't even know exists.
I saw this most blatantly with the game Destiny where the plot of the game makes no sense and you won't understand the setting or characters unless you go to a website the devs setup to read about it online.
>>14813068
I don't necessarily mind if audio logs exist per-say. I kind of like them if they explain content we wouldn't get otherwise. (I really like the audio log in Bioshock where they go into really small parts of the setting you wouldn't think about like the one where a guy explains how they have to heat the water pipes to prevent the cold ocean water from bursting them.) What I dislike is when developers just ignore the rest of the game in favor of telling vital things like "why are the characters actually here" and "why is the villain doing his plan".
I've been replaying a lot of older games without audio logs and I've noticed way more plot development was told in cutscenes with the characters and you'd often hear the backstory told directly to the player character by them. Like Metal Gear Solid is a good example. Nowadays all of that shit is optional and it feels weird to me.
>>14813083
Like I said I don't necessarily mind them in some cases. Like I do actually like the audio log where Kazuhira and Code Talker talk about hamburgers. I dislike it when the only plot development you hear is in optional audio snippets you have to listen to separately. Why is it the fun and inventive storytelling is done in an optional audio snippet that's out of context and the actual game's plot is this dry monotone mess.
3f7688 No.14813110
I like audio logs if they make sense in the context you find them or who makes them. Such as in New Vegas. If you do that one old ranger's quest in Novac, you end up going to a raided outpost Charlie. Not only do you find an audio log from the Legion saying that the NCR are little pussy bitch cowards, but you find logs from the lead ranger detailing patrol findings. That makes sense, but some asshole's monologue about how he's going to kill the main character's wife then take over the world takes me out of the game completely.
744f55 No.14813113
>haha you can like listen to it at your own pace and it isn't intrusive towards the game at all haha
>the fuck do you think you're trying to do advancing further in the game without getting the passoword tucked away at the end of a 3 minute voice log!?
>closing logs you already started? are you insane?
d91f7e No.14813127
>>14813000
It would be more "logical" to read e-mails between the various characters, but that breaks the game pace since you're stuck reading exposition instead of playing. Audiologs make for a good enough compromise since you can listen to them while still navigating the environment.
a7b2a3 No.14813137
>>14813000
>Cutscenes are trash. I can't do anything during them.
>Audio logs are trash. I can do anything during them so I'm not paying attention.
>Normal logs are bad. I don't want to read a wall of text.
Story telling in videogames was a mistake.
95e287 No.14813159
>>14813108
>Why is it the fun and inventive storytelling is done in an optional audio snippet
because the game was all about leaving the player hanging with anticipation. The taboo thing Hideo Kojima was created was a feeling of genuine loss in the player and apart of cultivating the "phantom pain" was in living just enough bread crumbs for a mystery but then never providing proper resolution. Kojima even said in a interview that he wanted to evoke the feeling what it was like to have your favorite show canceled without a final episode. That is why each mission was presented as being apart of a TV series with the cast and credits at the beginning and end of each mission. Also Kojima is a cunt who hatted his fans. Eli was a parody of the unsatisfied player, that is why his jacket reads "never be game over".
95e287 No.14813164
2a4c04 No.14813167
>>14813137
>Cutscenes are trash. I can't do anything during them.
I don't actually mind a cutscene as long as it's not dry and lifeless or breaks the pace. A lot of games seemingly put cutscenes everywhere at the start of a game (to the point where the first hour of most games is just this dull tutorial where you don't get to do anything). Some of my favorite games completely avoid doing this and give the player lots of freedom between story segments. Like Fallout New Vegas lets you explore the world of the game like 10 minutes after starting the game and the entire first town is treated as an optional tutorial you can completely ignore. One of the reasons why I like Thief is all of the cutscenes are great and are focused on telling you about your next mission. And most of the rest of the story is told to you through the environment. (Like listening to characters talk to each other while you're hiding from them).
95e287 No.14813169
creating*
fucking spelling
a7b2a3 No.14813173
>>14813167
> And most of the rest of the story is told to you through the environment. (Like listening to characters talk to each other while you're hiding from them).
That's just glorified audilogs.
c23cd7 No.14813177
>>14813137
That can't be read.
d91f7e No.14813179
>>14813167
Cutscenes are supposed to be rewards for making it through a level. Naturally, that only works if the player is actively engaged in the narrative and cares about the characters.
>One of the reasons why I like Thief is all of the cutscenes are great and are focused on telling you about your next mission
And I like the Kain games because the cutscenes are well paced, with great bantz between the cast and genuinely interesting revelations.
78498a No.14813180
>>14813000
>Does anyone else find the concept of audio logs really contrived and an example of terrible design?
I get where you're coming from, but I really enjoyed System Shock 2's logs since they did a good job conveying just how horrifying the assimilation of the crew was. The sound design in that game is still pretty unparalleled as far as I'm concerned.
2a4c04 No.14813182
>>14813159
>Kojima even said in a interview that he wanted to evoke the feeling what it was like to have your favorite show canceled without a final episode
>"I want players to feel a profound sense of disappointment in my game"
Well he at least accomplished that
>>14813173
>That's just glorified audilogs.
Way less contrived since it ties into the gameplay (sneaking around) and feels way more natural.
95e287 No.14813186
>>14813182
Yes but Kojima also has openly talked about how he has contempt for players. Raiden in MGS2 was all about mocking "gamers".
2a114e No.14813285
>>14813000
to me i agree it is terrible design because while its optional i of course assume i should listen to it because that is a part of the game and i feel like i am missing a part of the game (even though i really dont care for story in videogames). that really sucks because you cannot actually play while this is happening because you might miss something "important" to the story. and of course the logs are never placed in a room with enemies making it feel ultimately empty
6d4053 No.14813307
>>14813186
Well, cunt has been bitter about being forced into MGS since MGS2, so no wonder. Even when shitting all over his fans he's still praised and forced to work on a franchise he wants to leave. The man truly had a living hell, forever chained to the monster he created.
95e287 No.14813315
069c24 No.14813339
>>14813182
>feels way more natural.
Usually in stealth games the guards who have lines to say will just stand together doing nothing until you get within range to trigger their dialogue. It not only feels unnatural, it makes me want to exploit the time they spend talking, which means I'm not paying attention to them other than listening for the end of the conversation when they'll turn back into threats.
ddb77f No.14813375
theres are solutions to these problems,
you dont need audio logs if you
reflect more of the same atmosphere in level design and atmosphere
write more of it into characters, and into conversations
create some gameplay pieces that fulfills driving home same points
9276b4 No.14813380
They're a god awful way to tell a story or do environmental story telling.
ddb77f No.14813382
to me audio logs seem like billboard with ideas you didnt have time to implement into the world itself
2a4c04 No.14813394
>>14813382
>to me audio logs seem like billboard with ideas you didnt have time to implement into the world itself
This
It feels like the writers of the game had broader and more interesting ideas that they weren't able to implement so they compromised instead
9276b4 No.14813404
>>14813179
the great things is you could often just skip the cutscenes, unskippable ones are rare, so if you aren't into it or you just wanna play the game just skip them.
51c4b3 No.14813413
>>14813000 (checked)
>audio logs
What about text logs?
I found the logs scattered throughout Metroid Prime to be quite nice.
>inb4 TUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBBBBEEEEEEEEESSS
d91f7e No.14813419
>>14813394
That's not really the issue. They, and written logs, are useful to inform the player about past events and help with worldbuilding by allowing the player to experience side stories or see (or hear in this case) things from another perspective.
>>14813404
That too, but many console games made you suffer through unskippable cutscenes.
2a4c04 No.14813445
>>14813413
I think text logs are less contrived the biggest issue is that it's boring at times to just read text
>>14813419
>That's not really the issue. They, and written logs, are useful to inform the player about past events and help with worldbuilding by allowing the player to experience side stories or see (or hear in this case) things from another perspective.
The issue I have is that the player usually won't give a shit about any of this because it doesn't generally relate to what you're actually doing. I would much rather the game have less worldbuilding, and have all of the stuff that actually matters told to the player directly. Than have tons of pointless bullshit you could read but none of it really matters.
I genuinely believe that having less story can often be better since it forces the writers to think about and polish what story you have a lot more. If there's lots of story that you have to wade through it makes it feel like the game lacks focus and makes it less memorable.
3288ce No.14813575
>>14813000
You're definitely onto something with Metal Gear Solid.
I listened to almost every codec available in MGS3 when I played through that a few times. You missed out on them if you ran too far ahead too fast, you got calls that directly addressed the exact thing you were doing right at that moment, they felt like real conversations between real people.
But in MGSV it was just all wrong. I didn't give a fuck about anyone in that game, especially listening to them drone on in the tapes. It's a lazier way of delivering your story and it fucking shows in the experience. You do a mission, listen to a few tapes kind've related to what you just did and then do a new mission. No funny conversations about "belonging in the box" or Snake's gun circlejerk with Sigint, no movie talk or chit chat about weird animals. It's just a horrible way to deliver your backstory and world building information.
295637 No.14813595
Logs should only get put in game if they are video logs similar to those in the film Event Horizon. They should make you want to uninstall the game in fear.
744f55 No.14813631
>>14813382
Yeah pretty much. Just take all write a bunch of crap, have 4 or 5 people read it then throwh them around a map randomly.
9b05e9 No.14813672
>>14813000
Yes, audio logs = 'stop playing the game and listen to an mp3'. But redditors who still buy into the system shock meme are actually convinced this is high immershun.
9b05e9 No.14813707
>>14813575
>It's just a horrible way to deliver your backstory and world building information.
The best backstory in MGSV comes not from the audio tapes, but from the spy objectives where you have to tail a target and listen to his conversations. All of these episodes are very metal gearesque stories of honor and duty, like the one with the soldier who disagrees with his orders to execute a prisoner, or the one who wants out when the war becomes just business.
3288ce No.14813743
>>14813707
Ground Zeroes was full of that kind of stuff, less so Phantom Pain. I'd rank GZ way above PP for that alone. The tighter level design in GZ is perfect for those little encounters.
e2df45 No.14813767
I liked how they were done in Dead space and inFamous as they added to the lore.
2d9100 No.14813773
>>14813000
>System Shock 2
This game started the trend and like all games that start trends, it was good because System Shock 2 had a talented audio engineer on their team. SHODANs voice is literally just his wife talking and the rest is his editing, yet she's one of the most memorable characters in vidya. It's difficult to like audio logs in general because every other game seemed to see that and say "Oh look, a lazy way to make my game seem more immersive and dump exposition on the player!" Doom 3 was one of the worst due to the nature of the game itself and the fact that the designers were seemingly totally aloof to the fact that the logs overwrote all of the other ambient sound effects that they worked on, not to mention monster cues which are actually important.
717d46 No.14813777
>>14813055
Why are there cramped dicks on that record player with a bottle opener?
9bb3ae No.14813794
>>14813000
>Does anyone else find the concept of audio logs really contrived and an example of terrible design?
Yes, I do, 100 percent. They are the definition of lazy writing and game design. And most games that utilize audio logs as story telling elements are cringey as fuck. I openly despise all games that use audio logs as story telling elements with some rare exceptions like Fallout NV but even then in Fallout they're kept at a minimum and relegated to some side quests at best.
99.9 percent of audio logs in games are as follows
>"Testing…testing…okay so I am recording this to remind myself of what the terminal password is, the password is redrum. Oh yeah, I have also hidden the treasure inside the cave at the north east of the gas station. It is guarded by robots so be careful. I do not know why I am recording all this since this is not how human fucking beings work.
fb9f90 No.14813841
>>14813419
>That too, but many console games made you suffer through unskippable cutscenes.
It's mostly Western games really. Even MGS despite its infamy for cutscenes allows you to skip them.
27e925 No.14813845
I do actually. I find the whole idea of scanning in the Metroid Prime games, often lauded as an example of how to tell a story without getting in the way of a game, pretty lame too. The problem with these ideas is they are completely disconnected from the game experience and force you to stop playing and drop everything to read or listen to something. They are not, in fact, good ways to blend narrative with gameplay.
580c66 No.14813927
Logs with text + Voice
You can read them if you need information at a glance or you can have them playing in the background if you're moving from place to place or managing resources.
Think System Shock and System Shock 2. You'd need the logs to figure out what and where your objectives are, and you'd be able to pick whether you wanted to quickly skim them if it was an intense situation or really listen in during downtime or in between objectives.
744f55 No.14813938
>>14813794
>putting the code at the beginning of a log
I wish. They always shove it at the end right before a spooky monster breaks through the door.
f359fd No.14814074
>>14813927
>When the text differs from the spoken dialogue
This always makes me want to pound nails into my eyes for some reason.
580c66 No.14814130
>>14814074
>When the text differs from the spoken dialogue
At the very least, people have learned to stop with that shit.
66567b No.14814183
>>14813000
Honestly who the fuck would even make an audio log? The only thing i'd use them for is to save passcodes i'm too lazy to remember, those audio logs I don't have a problem with, same for audio logs that are made for the entire reason that you know you won't survive the situation so you make something that maybe someone could find at a later date. But then there's audio logs that say "Hahaha this idiot killed himself like a crazy boi yesterday!"
Who fucking talks like that? Especially to themselves? Only teenage girls do that with diaries. If a crazy event happened recently I wouldn't need to write it or record it down i'd probably always remember it and then tell the folks back home, it just feels silly.
b264cb No.14814228
>>14814130
To be fair, it happened that way in System Shock 1 because the voice acting was a later addition.
2a114e No.14814239
>>14814183
every time i feel pain i think im going to die or at least pretend i am and start writing a will just in case. i think it is fun at least, maybe they could just be hysterical
66567b No.14814294
>>14814239
Fuck how have we not gotten an audio log in a horror game that's just a random guy saying something like
>"Give all this shit to my big brother! But nothing to my Sister fuck her, she's a bitch!"
A last will could be both realistic and somewhat humorous.
5c4a98 No.14814465
>>14814294
>A last will could be both realistic and somewhat humorous.
It's just a guy ranting about his family and other stuff that annoys him.
>Jerry owes me $15 he still HASN'T paid back! Why Jerry? I thought you were cool.
>Why are Mondays so awful
>Sister keeps leaving hair everywhere! Good god is she actually a yak in disguise?
>Plan to kill my boss #53
>Dogs are so cool, I wish I was a dog, bark bark woof woof ruff ruff, yeah that will be the life
>Top secret family recipe for grandma's cookies DO NOT LET ANYONE OUT OF THE FAMILY READ THIS (continues on to a full cookie recipe)
>Stupid movie idea #9, TRON but with dinosaurs.
>I wish my wife would stop burning the casserole, is it really so hard? Yet, I still love her.
744f55 No.14814492
>>14814294
>>14814465
Left for Dead sort of did this but they had to pepper in some "the government did this" bullshit to make it all lame by proxy.
1fb552 No.14814524
>>14814183
Doctors often record their medical opinions, both for later use and in case their records are requested or they're sued. I think that's the only time an audio log gets a free pass.
2a114e No.14814573
>>14814294
thats pretty much how it goes in my wills
>my sister is retarded with electronics and my brother doesn't care for them so i give them to my mother to sell them for whiskey with the only request being you destroy my hard disks and immolate my green binder
1b1ef6 No.14814602
>>14813000
It depends on the setting. They can be great atmosphere if you're listening to them while alone, exploring like in Stalker.
30aff3 No.14814634
Audiologs are nice because they are not necessary to play the game most of the time
Most of them are used to tell backstory, and if the player doesn't give a fuck about the backstory they don't have to listen to them
Journalsletters are also a nice alternative to audiologs for the player to learn more about lore that has no real impact on actual gameplay
7a3caa No.14814840
>>14813055
So it's literally "Voice-Voice"? The fuck?
2a114e No.14815028
>>14814634
i think while it isn't necessary it would be better to incorporate those elements into the actual gameplay rather than expect the player to stick their thumbs up their asses every 5 minutes if they want to experience the whole game
d90e5c No.14815103
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
South Park did audio logs the best.
f9f9d7 No.14815132
MGSV has to be the worst where things that should be cutscenes INCLUDING THE FUCKING ENDING are god damn cassette tapes
020986 No.14815171
>>14813000
I don't mind it so much if they autoplay when I activate them like Bioshock and I can just move on while they play. It's good to build up a world with background or one shot characters giving more context for the story, but I'd rather not just stop and read everyone's diaries because that would ruin the pace. Even if it was just the protag reading it I can deal.
If I have to seek it out in the menu ala MGS:PW and just waste five minutes at a time then it can fuck off. Atleast MGSV let you play entire playlists while you sneak.
303d29 No.14815176
I'll take audio/text logs over walkie/talkie exposition. the issue is if audio logs are implemented like shit you end up standing there listening to it anyway.
>>14813049
I can skip cutscenes so they don't mess up my replays like in-game exposition does
bc7b80 No.14815212
>>14813083
>hates story in games
>makes Doom 3
Is carmack retarded?
1af27b No.14815221
I like the way AC does it. It gives a horror like feeling when you’re hacking into a megacorps logs and seeing the data they’ve been collecting from various people outaide and their own experiments with test subjects for the animus. I wish a genuinely good game would make a Uplink like game with this concept.
2a114e No.14815225
>>14815212
he just contributed to the engine, lead developer at best, nothing to do with the game
57e8ea No.14815299
>>14813055
They had a perfect solution in Elizabeth, too. Make them notes and have her pick them up and read them to the player. Of course, the game has a lot more problems than that.
>>14813339
Thief 1 and 2 did this well, since the dialogue wasn't always "Where is the protagonist I'd sure like to kill him?". It was either informative to your mission, interesting information about the world, or humorous.
>>14814573
What's in the green binder, anon?
99f160 No.14815320
>>14815299
If I had to take I guess I would say the green folder is full of hardcore vanilla, with nothing but interlocked fingers, missionary positions, and full body hugs and leg locks. Of course his biggest mistake is not having his entire hard drive encrycpted to avoid this exact situation.
0a391f No.14815343
Penumbra Overture did it, AvP2 did it, Avp2010 did it. Only horror games or really generic straightforward games did it which couldn't be arsed to include the backstory as playable content. At the very least if they had put it as a book as a really compelling and detailed story with excellent prose, but then we'd wonder why the fuck they didn't make a video game about it.
I loved how Cryostasis handled it. If you found a dead body then you could play 5 minutes as that person to see how exactly he died. Basically playable backstory like it's suppose to be done.
cbbb7f No.14815366
I can remember exactly zero audio logs and I've probably heard thousands by now.
I'm sure there was some part where he says "What was that noise? No! AGGHHH!"
a219c4 No.14815369
>>14815245
Is that sarcasm?
2a114e No.14815391
>>14815299
IF I WANTED PEOPLE TO KNOW I WOULDNT BE IMMOLATING IT
99f160 No.14815403
>>14815391
It's footfaggotry isn't it?
a219c4 No.14815621
>>14813182
>>14813307
and in the end, he'll be forgotten as a hack and a fraud that he is.
fefbfa No.14817108
2a4c04 No.14817155
>>14815212
>>hates story in games
He didn't say this. Carmack specifically said "you expect it to be there, but it isn't important"
This isn't a statement most people disagree with. Most people agree that the story shouldn't actually be that important to the game. This is true of Doom 3 where most of the story is right at the start of the game and after that it's really sparse and mostly just being told where to go next. It has more story than the original Doom but if you compare it to something like Half-Life 2 that released the same year, it's barren. Modern /v/ tends to dislike Half-Life 2 for the same reasons that Carmack disliked having too much of a focus on story in vidya.
It's also that this was clearly in reference to how Doom was originally supposed to be highly story driven as evidenced by just how much of the Doom bible was devoted to things like the different playable characters and story moments that were mostly ignored in the final game. And most people here would agree the game probably would've sucked if it had a large amount of dialogue and cutscenes.
b200c4 No.14817159
Yes they're terribly lazy and even the "Oh get us", self referential style: 'Why would I waste my time recording this when I'm about to die? Oh well." ones are even worse because they KNOW they're being lazy cunts and fucking do it anyway. Worse still is when audio tech doesn't exist in said gameworld and they have some handwritten note penned seconds before starving/being ripped to shreds.
b200c4 No.14817172
>>14813137
I wanna click 'hide' in that jpg
07bed7 No.14817636
On audio logs i don't like them except on bioshock 1 because like anon>>14813108.
But i do have other question on similiar topic: Are there any text logs that are good? and no how it should make it better?
One idea i have is putting most of story related text logs into news papers/news site to read. It makes it more organic since if player goes to new town and wants to find stuff to do then person could buy the paper or stumble on it randomly.
43c070 No.14817840
>>14813794
Speaking of NV, they weren't actually audio logs but I thought the way they told that whole side story about that guy surviving out in the mountains after the bombs dropped and periodically recording his thoughts in a diary throughout the rest of his life was pretty cool. Especially since there wasn't really much point to it other than it leading you to some hideouts to loot and was mostly just something you could find.