3438cf No.14692915
What is your take on morality in games? I can't think of a game that does it beyond a scale system of good vs bad goy. It's usually a case of good getting more passive items while evil gets more destructive items. Best example I can think of is Splinter Cell Double Agent or MSGV where playing nice will get you more tactical gear whereas killing everything will get you more more fun toys to destroy things.
c87dcc No.14692949
I don't like morality in games, I think the game universe should be amoral, like the regular universe we all inhabit. Otherwise it feels preachy and skinner box-ey.
The Deus Ex approach where people merely react differently depending on what (they know) you have done, and the game world is otherwise unchanged is the best approach imo.
I mean it's a game, something you PLAY, so morality systems just seems like teachers praising or scolding you at school.
3438cf No.14692962
>infamous 2
>game has abilities that are locked behind karma levels
>I prefer to be a good goy plus I like the good karma upgrades better
>have decently high positive karma
>get to point in game where you can fuse abilities with a fire or ice element
>think fire could be cool so I choose fire
>suddenly my karma plummets as choosing fire is somehow akin to raping a baby
The chick you fuse fire element powers with does have a subjectively evil leaning. But to go as far as labeling me satan for doing so was way over the line.
08f438 No.14692966
0bf459 No.14692993
My name is not important, what is important is what i'm going to do.
I just fucking hate this world, and the human worms feasting on it's carcus.
My whole life is just cold, bitter, hatred, and i always wanted to die violently.
This is the time of vengence, and no life is worth saving.
And i will put in a grave as many as i can, it's time for me to kill, and it's time for me to die.
d4a1bc No.14693004
I think Ultima Online had a decent system, though I've never played it or looked into it. If I remember, they had different gods that praised certain virtues, such as "honesty". If you were a pickpocket, it would earn you disfavor with that god
ef01c6 No.14693012
>>14692915
Ultima 4+ tracked your morality on multiple axes. It may have been the first game to properly do so. However, it is not a good path/evil path decider as being a virtuous person is part of the story and how to advance
Ultima 9's design doc indicates that there were going to be decisions forcing you to weigh virtues against each other (such as a prisoner has been abandoned and left for dead in a cell, but his crimes against the realm are great and he may pose a future danger. Do you release him(charity), or leave him to his punishment(justice))
440b21 No.14693065
>>14692915
Morality systems in games are fucking stupid, and have no place in vidya. Deus Ex, Morrowind, and Planescape Torment come to mind as far as morality done right. Morality isn't a binary option, nor should it be. People lie, everyone has ulterior motives, and games shouldn't spoonfeed you on what is wrong or right, especially since it handles good/bad in such massive, unrealistic extremes.
Do shit your way and live with the consequences, because you already know in your heart whether something is deemed "good" or "bad". You don't need some shitty videogame to tell you that.
ccac88 No.14693082
>>14692915
Usually morality in games is handled really poorly because there's not a lot of weight in the choices–it's a video game afterall with no real consequence after you turn the thing off. Who cares if a bunch of NPCs fall down a hole, the only worth a choice has is if it effects the player, and a lot of developers forget, or outright don't care that morality has to be a game mechanic to work, and not just a thing to exist.
An example would be the cliche of pressing X to do good thing and pressing Y to do bad thing. When Bioshock happened, a lot of games felt they need to shoehorn that in and it never came across well since the difference between Goodman and Badman would just be some alternate ending, a forced attempt to get replayability from 1 to a mighty 2 playthroughs. Not to mention that Good Choice and Bad Choice were so drastically far apart from one another that it ended up being a decision to help deliver a baby or eat it. No one's gonna just change their Goodman outlook halfway through the game, and it doesn't make sense for Goodman Character to on a whim decide to eat the babies.
The other method I've seen this implimented is the Good/Bad scale where everyone likes you if you do all the missions where you hand everyone a donut, but hate you if you knock over the donut factory. The game's completely the same, of course, and morality doesn't really have any bearing on you, the player. Not to mention, it doesn't make too much sense. Someone who hasn't done anything at all is neutral, but someone who burned down the city and shot a nun out of a giant slingshot is also neutral because they did all the orphan headpat missions afterwards?
Morality's gotta be handled with the player in mind. A player's gonna choose the option that's outright more beneficial either way, so both choices have to have a downside. Like, being good nets a reward, but it's outright harder to do. Bioshock tried to do this by saying you get more goo points if you mush the young girls into power juice, but being good gives you more goo points in the end, so who gives a shit. It's just a bunch of developers jerking themselves off thinking they put in something profound when it's just Door 1 and Door 2, except Door 2 has a frowny face on it.
0b0c91 No.14693120
>>14692915
I like it when I can do more than just kill.
90bd5e No.14693126
Any game that attempts to measure character morality is fucking up big time.
b1261a No.14693128
>>14692993
I want a guy like this Dom me, couldn't find any at Ozzfest :(
97546e No.14693214
No scale, no meter. Give me a reputation system where it more accurately reflects how certain people see me, instead of the world as a whole. Ideally, you don't even get that, let the players make choices and have to face the consequences. I always see evil as being the easy path, it should be otherwise what is the point? Villains typically take the easy routes, have plenty of protection, reap what the hard working and honest folk sow. Too many games though have you getting really fucked over for being evil, denied access to towns, merchants etc. whereas good players get all the quests, access to towns and merchants and that generally makes their time easier.
a6d288 No.14693281
I liked what Baldur's Gate did. It had you choose from one of the DnD alignments, then penalized you for deviating from the alignment you chose. Evil and Good are strictly defined in this case as sadistic/selfish and compassionate/altruistic, respectively. Then you have Lawful and Chaotic, as well, which define your character's respect or lack of respect for the laws.
When it is done this way, it is subjective in its definitions, but at least it creates a set of rules that create consequences if broken. So, it's a gameplay mechanic as opposed to a useless stat to check up on now and then.
>>14693065
What morality system is in Morrowind? There is a fame rating and a bounty for crimes.
e4a832 No.14693288
I think a game where you can set your own morals and what actions add to a "good" or "evil" counter,so you could claim all your actions were good and your character would feel great about it,and the people in the game could still hate you,would be a great system.
57a435 No.14693290
What comes to mind is Don't Starve.
There's some hidden counter for every time you kill wildlife (a food and material source), and a high enough count summons a thieving nigger that comes in the night and steals your shit.
Kill a rabbit, one 'naughtiness' point.
Kill a sacred bug thing, 50 points, that nigger is coming tonight.
Kill nothing for a day, -8 points.
Learned that shit the hard way, after a hard day's massacre.
c87dcc No.14693299
>>14693281
>Greater Basilisk.jpg
Fucking hell, is every enemy in median xl ripped off from baldur's gate?
5aec0e No.14693303
>>14693281
How did it punish or penalize you?
440b21 No.14693362
>>14693281
>What morality system is in Morrowind? There is a fame rating and a bounty for crimes.
There isn't one. Everything in Morrowind is very grey, and nothing is cut-and-dry in regards to what is wrong or right. Even attempting to do the "right" thing will still make you enemies that'll want to fuck your shit up.
875093 No.14693376
DnD morality that dictates what job change you'll become is the only good morality system
09f62b No.14693391
Any typical morality "system" is silly, see >>14692949, >>14693065. A game which handles morality well is one in which morality is realistically modeled: some of your decisions will have later consequences, some won't, sometimes it depends on whether anyone knows what you did, etc.
a6d288 No.14693446
>>14693303
It doesn't penalize you as much as I had thought, upon looking it up. Mainly it affects your reputation and creates class restrictions.
http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Alignment
But all party members have alignments as well, and you have to make them compatible or they can quit or fight each other.
c87dcc No.14693461
>>14693004
If this system were expanded so that there were many gods who praised certain virtues (and just as many gods praising certain vices), and those gods enhanced your character's abilities like some kind of greek mystery cult made real, that could be really cool.
"I must wipe out this innocent village to claim my reward from Hades" is a player character motivation I haven't seen enough of.
953d6e No.14693473
>>14693290
Meanwhile if you manage to kill Krampus he has a (1%) chance to drop the largest backpack in the game, which is HUGELY valuable. OK so it's only 2 more slots than the next largest, but it doesn't come with the movement penalty.
cb0bfd No.14693491
>>14693376
>morality dictating jobs is "good" in any capacity
>there can't be any good assassins
>there can't be any evil priests
You just have the emotional range of a toddler.
286482 No.14699419
>>14693461
This is the ideal morality system for me, and I really want to see more games that implement it.
>during gameplay you can enter temples erected for the worship of different gods and pledge yourself to their divine mandate
>this becomes a meta quest during your adventure with goals and actions to fulfill, such as healing the sick in the name of the Goddess of Health, or stealing money in the name of the God of Trickery, or setting a village on fire in the name of the God of Chaos
>performing actions that appease your deity increases your favor with them, eventually leading to them granting you boons or items/skills which make it easier to carry out their will ("the God of Chaos has blessed you with the knowledge of the Ever-burning Flame!")
>if you stop doing their bidding (or do stuff that explicitly goes against their desires), they will revoke their blessings or even find other ways to bring misfortune upon you within their sphere of influence
>different gods might be neutral to each other or mutually-exclusive, which means acting in favor of one god may anger another
>you can play as a non-believer, but this means all deities are your enemy and you have no divine blessings, leading to a naturally more difficult run
Are there any roguelikes or RPGs with this sort of gameplay feature?
1dd922 No.14699432
>all the moralfags in this thread
I'm laughing at you. Nothing personal.
efce74 No.14699699
>>14693303
It didn't.
>>14693446
There are only a few restrictions as such and they're more on a law/chaos scale than the traditional good/bad one. The only real penalty comes from playing a paladin or ranger and somehow managing to change your alignment. The party argument is crap considering you can even go solo with no issues.
>>14693491
>>there can't be any evil priests
Yes, yes there can. They even have dedicated evil domain powers and prestige classes.
>>14693065
C&C is nice but for me at least it seems to fall into one of the two distinct camps; no matter what you do the game tries to guilt trip you - a'lla Witcher or no matter what you do the game blows righteous smoke up your ass.
900c9e No.14699716
>>14693126
In Fallout 3, in the ending sequences the narrator will actually scold you and talk shit about you if you did things the game arbitrarily decided is "evil", like refusing a totally unnecessary suicide mission.
e6fc5c No.14699861
>>14692915
Unfortunately, morality in video games is simply picking whatever option you think will get you a better reward with the "evil" or "neutral" choices granting you less reward or nothing worthwhile at all. Instead of being realistic, most often it's just propaganda operating on the belief that you'll be trained to be a good goy IRL.
6123f8 No.14700098
i always go for lawful good or maybe neutral good if push comes to shove. even when playing simple rpgs without a morality system, i still don't steal or take anything from npc's homes unless they give me permission to
27ed0c No.14700175
>>14699716
But it's your destiny to kill yourself by pushing that button, even if you have a friend who can push it without dying. Don't you want to fulfill your destiny? It's for the greater good. Only bad goys wouldn't want to :^)
82cbe6 No.14700230
Morality in games is largely useless from a gameplay perspective, because the costs of development to create actual consequences for your actions is too much for most devs to swallow. Still, so long as it's pretty much totally useless I don't mind it being in as a stat which defines your character in the abstract.
Fallout 3, at least got it somewhat right by making morality more or less completely useless surface-level alterations. The whole "illusion of choice" where there is none, and it didn't fuck up any further other aspects of the game - such as was the case in Mass Effect where the whole of the dialogue system was compromised to be shoehorned around the Dark Side/Light Side Renegade/Paragon system and then all your choices that had been building up to that point just chucked into the bin at the finale because it was too much of a burden to account for.
New Vegas made morality even more meaningless, while still using it as a supplementary character defining stat - replacing it with the much superior reputation system which allowed you to become completely ostracized from many communities, cutting off valuable access to quest givers, supplies, trading outlets, etc. The system actually worked, or at least would have if they had added in more Legion content to make aligning with Caesar actually viable.
3df013 No.14700607
>>14693082
>Not to mention that Good Choice and Bad Choice were so drastically far apart from one another that it ended up being a decision to help deliver a baby or eat it.
Hey Yahtzee.
>>14693065
>Deus Ex
>Morrowind
>Planescape: Torment
Good taste. Additionally, I like how the latter has a "bluff" option for almost every dialogue choice. It affects your reputation but not your alignment besides a mild shift towards Chaotic. Pretty clever, and not many games do that.
>>14693214
Alpha Protocol does just that. It even accounts for shifts in your attitude and methods, and also gives you new perks every few choices to encourage your playstyle of choice.
>>14699419
Dungeon Crawl comes to mind. I'm sure there's others that do the same but I got nothing off the top of my head.
07ccc2 No.14700715
Modern people don't even understand morality or values, it's all relativism now. I'd like to see something done where it isn't just how others see you, but having your choices impact your character directly, making it harder to control impulses or appetites the further you go down the path of degeneracy.
939f70 No.14700735
>>14692962
I agree. I think that boiling everything down to Mother Theresa and baby eating is ridiculous, and gating abilities behind a janky morality system is bad design.
8f464b No.14700772
>>14700230
> if they had added in more Legion content to make aligning with Caesar actually viable.
Blame bethesda for forcing them to rush the game, because they were going to expand a lot on that faction.
And yeah, NV also has a final perk choice that depends on your morality level.
3df013 No.14700833
>>14700772
>Blame bethesda for forcing them to rush the game, because they were going to expand a lot on that faction.
Go on…
bde2c3 No.14700842
>>14692949
Yeah, amoral vidya universes are the shit.
>>14693128
sage unrelated posts you faggot
>>14693214
Yeah, it's complete bullshit; unrealistic as fuck.
>>14693491
>>there can't be any evil priests
lmao ever heard of the Pope? He's evil as fuck, you can feel it from the energy he gives off, there's proof of it too somewhere, I just never ended up saving it.
>>14700098
I try to be a good person in video games but you know I really just don't like some characters and everybody would agree that they're better off dead.
>>14700715
>your choices impact your character directly
That would be the fucking shit.
>>14700833
Bethesda rushed Obsidian to release the game long before it was ready, remember that [INACCESSIBLE] door on Hoover Dam that only opened at the end of the game? That was one of the things Bethesda prevented, same with all the other [INACCESSIBLE] doors in Benny's hotel; can't remember the name.
What in the goddamn…
01dcc1 No.14700857
>>14692966
Mini satan has good taste
a6d288 No.14700860
>>14699699
Argument? I'm just saying I like the system. I'd be all for harsher penalties. My main point is I like morality as a mechanic that penalizes you from deviating. And I'm pretty sure that the paladin/ranger thing isn't a thing until BG2.
3df013 No.14700872
>>14700860
>punishing character development
bbcbad No.14700881
>>14700842
For a company that has yet to ship a complete and good product, Obsidian sure likes to blame everyone else a lot. Obsidian just can't finish shit, even when given all the time and money they need with no one to answer to. When you have a deadline, and work in an industry which treats deadlines as an incredibly important central pillar, you learn to work within them. Obsidian has been around for 15 years and they still can't manage a project around a dead line. They are incompetent.
896f94 No.14700899
>>14700715
>I'd like to see something done where it isn't just how others see you, but having your choices impact your character directly, making it harder to control impulses or appetites the further you go down the path of degeneracy.
Humanity in VtM:B is basically that. It is also ties very well into the narrative in the game along with the Masquerade system.
>Modern people don't even understand morality or values, it's all relativism now.
At this point, having a completely black and white system that isn't tree-huggingly childish (unlike Undertale) would be controversial.
>>14693214
>I always see evil as being the easy path, it should be otherwise what is the point? Villains typically take the easy routes, have plenty of protection, reap what the hard working and honest folk sow. Too many games though have you getting really fucked over for being evil, denied access to towns, merchants etc. whereas good players get all the quests, access to towns and merchants and that generally makes their time easier.
The evil route wouldn't feel as fulfilling if it is easier. The evil choice would feel pointless if it is just as hard as the good one.
>>14693281
That is because the game lets you pick your alignment right away instead of dropping you off as True Neutral. The alignment system was originally meant to force roleplaying in P&P RPGs.
>You are out food and money. What do you?
<Wait next to the road and rob the next the comes by.
>You're a paladin.
<A hungry paladin.
>>14700872
There is a big gap between being schizo and character development.
>>14700881
Bethesda games feel finished in a "I didn't even try" way.
8f464b No.14700912
>>14700881
>Obsidian sure likes to blame everyone else
>When you have a deadline
<Development cycle of Fallout 3: 4 years
<Development cycle of Fallout NV: 1 year and half
Yeah, that was fair and the blame isn't on Shithesda at all.
>>14700833
Lot of cut content and concept art, like the other anon said, there was going to be the option to explore part of Caesar's territory in Nevada
a6d288 No.14700934
>>14700872
Yep. Because it would turn morality into an actual mechanic of the game, as opposed to some flavor text in your stat menu.
b6c24d No.14700935
Galactic Civs did it rather decently for a time. Randomly throughout the game you'd be presented with choices, and in almost all cases evil have better results. So you'd have an event that would occur upon colonization of a planet where you discover an anomaly that absorbs a person's life energy and spreads it across the planet, increasing it's habitability at the cost of killing them. So your choices would be
>Good: forbid use of the anomaly
>Neutral: allow citizens to volunteer themselves
>Evil: routinely run a lottery throughout the population, sacrifice the winners
a6d288 No.14700939
>>14700935
>no option to volunteer all the jews
bbcbad No.14700943
>>14700912
fo4 was bethesda's first game on new platforms, requiring a restructuring of their technology and they added plenty of ambitious things to the game. fallout new vegas recycles tech, steals mods, and still couldn't ship without the first character you see in the game have its head spin around on his neck like a clock arm. Maybe if Obsidian was competent, there wouldn't be any problem.
07ccc2 No.14700944
>>14700899
Yeah, I was thinking about VtM right after I posted that, good fit. Maybe refine it into something like a tripartite system where choices or actions would feed an aspect until it becomes dominant over the others and weaken or eliminate your ability to choose alternatives.
a6d288 No.14700947
>>14700943
> Maybe if Obsidian was competent, there wouldn't be any problem.
I doubt it. Because even if they were competent, they'd still have James Sawyer.
b6c24d No.14700954
>>14700939
You're already a space-faring race, I assume the Jew problem was taken care of earlier.
e28c89 No.14700971
>>14700230
>fallout 3 getting it somewhat right
I don't care if the Lone Wanderer blew up Megaton! A guy who gives all those water bottles to a vagrant can't be a bad guy!
07ccc2 No.14700979
>>14700943
Bethesda
>restructuring of their technology
Obsidian
>recycles tech
Bethesda
>added plenty
Obsidian
>steals mods
It's no wonder Bethesda hired Obsidian.
a6d288 No.14700985
>>14700954
Sounds like a safe assumption to make, goy– er, anon.
bbcbad No.14700988
>>14700979
to make an expansion pack tier game yep, it's a shame obsidian still managed to fuck up like they did with every game they've ever worked on. It's a safe bet whatever they ship will be a buggy, incomplete and poorly optimized mess. The only surprise is who they'll blame - it's just obvious they'll never blame themselves.
3df013 No.14700991
>>14700881
>>14700943
>>14700988
Gee, I wonder who's behind these posts.
a6d288 No.14700992
>>14700988
Yes. It's always a major shock who they decide to blame. Can't predict that one ahead of time. Nope. Nu-uh. It's just a mystery.
896f94 No.14700995
>>14700979
Obsidian didn't steal Autumn Leaves.
07ccc2 No.14701012
>>14700988
The joke is that everything you accuse Obsidian of, Bethesda has done as well. Shit on Obsidian, by all means, Josh Sawyer has fucked plenty of games with his pretensions to system design, but leave off any praise for
Bethesda.
e28c89 No.14701033
>>14700935
>anomaly allows habitablilty in exchange for life
Could you go into detail? Would you be able to gimp the system by seeing if those at deaths door would volunteer? I would see no problem morally if old man Johnson with terminal cancer would like to volunteer.
Anyway, does anyone have the GHOULS DINDU NUFFIN comic. Seems mighty relevant.
ad07ae No.14701045
>>14700860
The paladins absolutely are. Rangers were added in 2.5/BG2 iirc, ie Minsc going fighter into one. Thieves also had a non lawful restriction.
aa8ed4 No.14701068
RPGs should endeavor to encourage role-playing. To that end, I think entire choices ought to be discarded based on your morality. If you pick to play as a good guy, you should not even have an option to nuke Megaton (or you should at least be given a compelling alternative reason to). If you pick to play as an evil character, you should have some rational self-interest in any good action you commit, turning away payment ought not be allowed unless it is to gain influence and the social cover of decency.
Similarly, I'd like it if games were more serious about giving you dialogue options pertaining to your background. If you're playing a game as a barbarian, you should have all dialogue be crass and unsophisticated. If you're a paladin, rigorous self-discipline ought to reflect in the dialogue as well.
8f464b No.14701071
>>14700943
>restructuring of their technology
Fancy way to say
<Same engine since Morrowind
Gotta love how nuF4 and nuF3 are a perfect bait to check for cuckchan.
3df013 No.14701075
>>14701068
>RPGs should endeavor to encourage role-playing
>by locking out options and choices
aa8ed4 No.14701077
>>14701075
Players don't have the self-discipline to do it themselves. Being able to do anything isn't role-playing, it's sandboxing.
0bbd92 No.14701084
>>14701075
Isn't this the problem with Bethesda's games that you AREN'T locked out of content because of your choices? You can be archmage without knowing magic, thieves guild without knowing anything about stealth, fighter's guild while being an elf, etc?
bbcbad No.14701094
>14701071
>adding features like in-game building and support for new platforms isn't restructuring
>being a retard
<(you) aren't even getting one.
b23844 No.14701096
>>14692915
I dislike it when a moral choice is forced on me that doesn't have an obvious answer, which then rewards me with some NOC piece of shit acting like I just killed a baby. Also, I like playing a hero but I get pissed when being virtuous costs me money or items. It's the designer telling me I'm a sucker for not grabbing the money and running.
3df013 No.14701100
>>14701077
Role-playing is borne of choice. If you remove the element of choice beforehand it's not role-playing, it's following a script.
>Being able to do anything isn't role-playing, it's sandboxing.
Christ, you sound like a commie.
>>14701084
>You can be archmage without knowing magic, thieves guild without knowing anything about stealth, fighter's guild while being an elf, etc?
You're conflating two completely unrelated things.
aa8ed4 No.14701103
>>14701100
>Role-playing is borne of choice. If you remove the element of choice beforehand it's not role-playing, it's following a script.
You can have choices without being able to do anything that totally contrasts with what's established.
7a4c78 No.14701531
>>14701100
Role-playing is born out of rules AND choice withn set of rules. Any game starts with rules, without rules there is no game.
"Why can't my scholar character kill this dragon with singe punch instead of using the spell? It removes the element of choice! Today it fells like dragon punching day!" Everyone naturally understand it when it comes to combat, that LIMITATIONS are necessary for creating different characters having different roles. But when it comes to social aspects "oh noes! everyone should be the same".
a6d288 No.14701553
>>14701531
> But when it comes to social aspects "oh noes! everyone should be the same".
Hmmm. I wonder why.
222688 No.14702241
Whenever games attempt to make your moral decisions have impact all it ends up boiling down to is making you regret every single decision by blatantly shoving in your face the fact that if you had only picked the other option this horrible thing wouldn't have happened, but if you picked the other option it just goes in the opposite direction.
0069b7 No.14702260
>>14693065
>you already know in your heart whether something is deemed "good" or "bad". You don't need some shitty videogame to tell you that.
Some people have stupid hearts that process things differently and have completely different morality systems.
82cbe6 No.14702328
>>14700971
>I don't care if the Lone Wanderer blew up Megaton! A guy who gives all those water bottles to a vagrant can't be a bad guy!
That's surface level shit though, it rarely fucks with the mechanics of the game. Whether the game considers you a saint or satan, the same events happen - and the only thing that changes is what uniform they're wearing and a bit of flavor text. If you're good, you get Talon Mercenaries after you - if you're bad, you get Regulators hunting you. If you're good, wastelanders will run up to you and give you free shit for being good. If you're bad, wastelanders will run up to you and give you free shit so that you leave them alone. If you're good, you collect fingers from evil enemies. If you're evil, you collect ears. The game plays exactly the same, regardless. Nobody ever cuts you off from quests. Nobody ever refuses to trade with you. There are no unique encouters to either side of the moral spectrum. Where it fucks up is where it breaks immersion, and /v/ always says that immersion is horseshit apologetics for bad mechanics anyhow - so it's nothing you should be really concerned about.
bde2c3 No.14702719
>>14700935
Got any suggestions on a good GalCiv?
fad342 No.14702940
>>14701068
removing player agency regarding their own PC's inclinations is not a good roleplaying experience. it's a transparent attempt to impose your own biases on someone.
aa8ed4 No.14703360
>>14702940
Given free reign, every video game player will effectively just be a chaotic neutral piece of shit following their impulses instead of actually playing a character. There are no biases to impose, there are ways you can justify action and there are ways you can't. If the narrative isn't robustly enough to create plausible justification for an action, you shouldn't be able to do it. This isn't pen & paper, you shouldn't expect an un-curated experience where you just do whatever the fuck you want whenever you want.
d05479 No.14703380
HookTube embed. Click on thumbnail to play.
Vid related nails it pretty well.
A literal morality meter makes sense for RPGs, but it isn't the best for games in general. It's good when you don't even notice it's there (I didn't for darkest dungeon) and there are actual trade-offs.
3df013 No.14704802
2cc51b No.14704847
Morality in games is not good. Generally, the objectively correct choice to make, based on increasing one's chances of survival in both the present and the future, is "evil," while choices that would reduce your chance of survival in present and future are "good."
I have to assume that this is what comes of having writers write your stories. Should let your programmers write your stories, not only would they snipe all the plot holes (because they have to go back through their own programs and spend years debugging, they would do the same with the stories they write) but the stories would also be vastly more pragmatic, instead of idealized tripe.
7341a7 No.14704866
>>14693281
Baldur's Gate "morality" system is shit. Suppose you build an evil party. You are pressed to do "good" things regardless to increase reputation to get discounts from stores. However, your evil party members throw a hissy fit and leave party if your reputation goes too high, whereas not even the good party members give a shit if you steal or pickpocket.
160fa6 No.14704954
I think that morality systems should simply be a way to have two or more different campaigns in a single player. New moves, new bosses, new storylines, etc. Otherwise it can go fuck itself.
a6d288 No.14705077
>>14704847
I think you're just an evil person who doesn't want to face that fact.
8e6917 No.14705098
Morality in games kinda sucks when the devs are immoral and think that right is wrong & wrong is right. Like homosexuality for example, an act that's widely considered a bad/unnormal thing in every country. And yet, in order to get the true ending in Undertale, you MUST tolerate the existence of lesbian couples, a gay robot, and date a male skeleton. If you don't and decide to ignore or even kill them (self-defense against murderous psychopaths), the game rates you as quote "less moral" unquote than a degenerate soyboy who thinks that homosexuality is perfectly "natural".
The same thing has happened in Bioware's Mass Effect series, where supporting a "humans first" approach (analogous to nationalists or white supremacists, because you only care about your own group's perserverance) is treated as a "bad/evil" thing. And yet, supporting the "diverse galactic community" and sacrificing human needs for the benefit of alien races (analogous to globalists and diversity cucks, where you forsake your own group in favor of outsiders and maintaining "diversity") is treated as a "good" thing to do. This is no more apparent than in Mass Effect's protrayals of the Illusive Man and Council. Even if you sacrifice thousands of human lives to save their ungrateful/unbelieving/incompetent asses, they're still considered the morally right "Paragon" choice. Meanwhile the Illusive Man (Bioware writers's quintessential depiction of a rich, old, straight, white man) helped and supported you more than any character in the entire series (brought you back from the dead, a free ship, dossiers on locating worthwhile teammates, believed the Reaper threat unlike the Council and fully supported your methods, etc), but was still considered the morally wrong "Renegade" choice.
And in ME3, regardless of your support/opposition to Cerberus in 2, the shit writers still made him a fullblown villain anyways for no reason because fuck dirty rightwingers, amirite? They were secretly evil all along!
My point is that "morality systems" in games can be a massive propaganda tool that'll warp uncritical gamers' minds into believing whatever the leftists writers want them to believe is "good" (homosexuality is a-okay, kids!) or "bad" (protecting your own race is evil! sacrifice yourselves for a "diversity community"!). And because gamers are so autistic and often aim for the True/Best/"Good" ending first, the devs/writers practically forced them to choose degenerate options in order to keep their character at a "good karma" level.
Unaware that they're being fed lies that "right is wrong" & "wrong is right".
cb0bfd No.14705101
>>14705077
>I think
You've literally just proven him right. Your emotions aren't fact, you yiddish sack of leftist shit.
a6d288 No.14705111
>>14705101
I didn't say "I feel" I said "I think." But your response was a great example of a stupid emotional statement.
cb0bfd No.14705118
>>14705111
1. Reported for obvious spam.
2. Reported for pilpul.
3. Your thoughts are irrelevant. Your thoughts aren't fact. Your thoughts are based on your feelings. YOU HAVE PROVEN HIM RIGHT AGAIN.
cb0bfd No.14705121
>>14700842
>what is greentext
Fucking get out.
a6d288 No.14705126
>>14705118
This sperg of yours is a great example of the all consuming butthurt that dominates the mind.
b2e53c No.14705143
>>14705118
>>14705101
>>14705121
Oh look, a bored retard. Filtered.
3616ae No.14705160
>>14700935
>That neutral isn't considered a "good"
>that good is considered good
Shit devs
e2f514 No.14705164
One of the most fascinating morality systems I've seen in a porn game with stolen hentai art, Seventh Heaven - Guardian Angelgood luck finding that shit not in russian though. In it, you are a guardian angel for a girl and essentially play as her, trying to get her to a better place in life in 100 days. However, the girl eventually gets traits that limit her dialogue choices. For example, a religious girl can't refuse a nun. A racist girl won't help a catgirl slave. A junkie will do anything for drugs.
However, to get the traits you need to consistently act that way, so lack of options is of your own doing and provides nice roleplaying elements in an otherwise forgettable game despite the amount of elements I think it does incredibly well.
15fdc3 No.14706660
>>14700175
God I remember that part. So fucking retarded
< Ghoul, can you press this button? Among us you're the only one who'll survive.
> Nah man, it's your destiny to do so. You wouldn't want me to take THAT away from you right?
< Ghoul I'll die if I do that but you can do it effortlessly
> Destiny my man
91353a No.14706972
loyalty > morality
games should track your relationship with factions or even religions/ideologies, not gud boi points
best example is fallout 3 vs fallout new vegas
acd4d5 No.14710062
>playing Western RPGs
>thinking your illusion of choice matters
>people praising masquerade bloodlines, a game that throws speech/dialogue choice down the window after hitting the sewers
f2710c No.14710103
>>14710062
>Playing RPG's
I enjoyed Fable for the shits and giggles but I can never seem to take the genre seriously, especially iso and text based.
There are some genres that were meant to stay tabletop and vice versa.
cee18c No.14710131
>>14705164
That system sounds pretty good actually. There's a tabletop system with a similar system where you have Fate points you can spend to act against your nature.
bee82f No.14710145
>>14710103
Try Icewind Dale, it's pretty cool tbh.
f2710c No.14710215
>>14710145
Does it have bants/comedy?
I play mostly 4x so I get burnt out playing serious spreadsheet simulators
cd6afe No.14710242
>>14710145
>Icewind
>cool
That much goes without saying.
bee82f No.14710256
>>14710215
It has pretty nice atmosphere and focuses on gameplay. If it's comedy you want I'm not sure what to recommend you honestly. I'd say Anachronox but that's more of a jrpg and it isn't an isometric game at all. Bard's Tale maybe? Comedy and WRPGs don't really mesh well.
77fdde No.14712056
VtM:B and Ultima have very well though out morality systems which are heavily tied to the narrative. VtM:B's morality system prevents characters from being controlled by the Beast and discourages indiscriminate killing. In-universe and in the tabletop version, there is an alternate morality system for vampires incapable of staving off the Beast with humanity (like the ones that need to kill to stay alive) with "opposite" virtues. Ultima judges the player based off the 8 virtues which are tied to the game's mythology.
The worst is shit like Emil's writing in FO3 and FO4. However, the second worst are games the force you do evil thing then chastises you or games that chastises you no matter what.