/v/ - Video Games

The real issue is "emulating tabletop dicerolls" in the first place.

>>14678762

A better alternative would be to have the enemies have a dodging mechanic instead.

But fuck that, that takes more animation and programming than "Your attack has x% chance to do nothing"

>>14678773

This.

Theres no reason for that shit when you are doing real time action-based combat.

>Was this ever a good idea?

At the time it probably made sense given the size/scope of the game and the budget. And since it was an RPG.

Bare in mind that Daggerfall had a very similar system except it's less noticeable there as it happens much less often. The game also has sprites so you never see a weapon go into someone else so you assume it bounced off or didn't connect. The main difference between the two is that it's most noticeable in Morrowind at the start of the game when you're underlevelled. By the time you're midway through the game you notice it much less.

>Is this something that people would stand for in a modern game?

It wasn't that well liked at the time. Bare in mind. You can find old reviews of Morrowind when the game came out and they even point out that the combat was pretty bad.

>but the animation is clearly of the weapon going INTO and THROUGH the opponent, and that is a terrible misrepresentation of a "missed" hit.

It's due to the limitations they had at the time. Bare in mind Morrowind was an utter disaster of a game before it launched. Bethesda went bankrupt during its development and it widely changed concepts and locations multiple times. If the game didn't sell well it would've definitely have been the last TES game.

>>14678762

>>14678786

use hooktube or i won't click your shit

>>14678861

Stop trying to fit in. It's not working.

>>14678762

Good idea, bad execution.

I like the multiple weapon type skills because it restricts your character to a discipline/weapon instead of being a jack of all trades, promoting roleplay and making looting more realistic due to the variety of items.

>>14678762

No, it's a legitimate flaw with the game that bethdrones bury their heads in the sand about.

>>14678969

There are other ways to represent character skills that don't require outdated pen and paper abstractions that clash with the gameplay, but like most things in sandbox vidya, they require more work

>>14678999

It's easy for people who like the game to forget about constant missing when it doesn't really factor into the game for anyone older than 10 years old and with a >80 IQ

yeah after i died from a 2 inch enemy i quit.

>>14678861

>use hooktube or i won't click your shit

It's an old ass Gamespot review featuring a guy who left the company like 10 years ago

>>14679278

You mean Greg "Red Alert 3" Kasavan?

>>14678762

>>14678773

>>14678953

>>14678999

>The absolute state of /v/ in MMXVIII

>>14678762

You are about 75% right. If you see an attack connect in a real time action context, it should have some sort of feedback. This is absolutely true from a design standpoint.

At the very least, what needed to happen is dodging and blocking animation feedback when you miss.

It's understandable that Elder Scrolls would move into first-person shooter melee combat instead, but keeping up chance-based combat would have been nice (easy too: cast a ray at the start of the attack animation to return target stats, do the calculations, and queue up dodge/shield animations as necessary. If your attack hits in spite of the defense, give partial damage for a glancing blow).

>>14679009

It's not that it's outdated, more like it's retarded to add dice-rolls mechanics on a real time action game.

>>14679508

Well it wasn't just an action game, it was an RPG

>>14678999

It was a widely used type of mechanic at the time hardly limited to Morrowind, you piece of human trash.

>>14679617

>broken garbage.

>Being literally retarded

>>14679698

>Skyrim isn't an RPG

Oh fuck off

>>14679732

It isn't, it's an action game with RPG elements

Saying skyrim is an RPG because it has skills with a numbered point system is like saying CoD games are RPGs for having an experience system and character specializations

>>14679742

Morrowind is an action game with RPG elements by your stupid logic.

No it's not something people would accept in a modern game, which leads me to believe it's a great idea

I think Todd and his cuckchan friends are going nuclear.

>>14678762

>swinging a weapon on the opponents direction means it will always hit no matter what

>>14679698

Neither morrowind nor oblivion are even good for that so what does that make them?

>>14679755

It's really not. A lot can be said about the benefits of forcing people to play to their build's strengths, but I imagine there's more elegant ways to convey to the player their character is a clumsy fuckwit that is more likely to hit himself with the sword rather than the enemy.

>>14679801

>>14679732

We catched the redditors!

>>14679749

Morrowind has actual character builds and relatively in-depth RPG mechanics, and gives the player a choice of role to play

CoD is not an RPG no matter how many times you try to turn the argument around, try a little harder than going "no u"

>>14679824

redditors love morrowind and circlejerking about old games that were neither good nor fun

>>14679827

>Morrowind has actual character builds and relatively in-depth RPG mechanics

Which all fell apart the moment you figured you could grind and outright break the system if you knew what you were doing?

What's the point of character builds when you can just improve acrobatics by jumping everywhere like a madman?

>>14679847

There's no point in builds if there is nothing limiting your character from becoming good at everything. There's really no reason not to break the game and avoid the tedium by exploiting the system if you can, and that's why Morrowind is a shit RPG.

>>14679860

>Being proefficient at every skill requires a real autist amount of grinding and min-maxing, making it a sort of soft-cap for normal players.

<B-but there are no real limits!

>>14679912

On the other hand, it could be possible to fix by making the character you're fighting move slightly to the side, signifying a miss.

>>14679909

No, it doesn't. Just abuse alchemy.

>>14679807

Then why havent you implemented it in your game?

>>14679912

Your thinking is too rigid, RPGs do not require misses to have good combat mechanics

Pen and paper abstractions are exactly that, mechanics made for pen and paper, for games where what was happening existed only within the imagination and required solid and simple mechanics people could use with very limited tools to ground the fantasy

We don't have to use a simple number system to create a representation of a character's skills that clashes with the reality shown on the screen when we can literally simulate the character's skills

/v/ is dead

>>14679927

Even simpler

A fucking parry, rotate the enemies sword a little.

>Build character correctly because I can read tooltips.

>Only miss 1/20 times fresh off the boat.

Weird; OP have you considered that it's you that's shit and not the game.

>>14679959

There is a slight problem with that, with using numbers to represent character skills, we can create a character with a different skillset to ours, when we literally simulate the character's skill, we lose that ability as our own skill becomes the skill of the character. It's a paradox where if you want to play a character who is less skilled at something you have to play badly to roleplay correcty.

>>14679970

Or this, that will work as well.

>>14679992

Just because the player is in control, doesn't mean that control has to be godlike

This isn't VR, gameplay doesn't need to give you 1:1 movement and let you showcase the full scope of your abilities

You could be great at a game's sword combat, but that won't mean much if your character can't easily lift a sword and doesn't know any moves other than a basic swing

>>14678762

Git gud faggot. You know you're full of shit when you're arguing from a position of "Is this something people would stand for in a modern game?". Maybe you should try setting the weapon you intend to use as a Major Skill so it's above 30, also try not running everywhere so you run out of stamina. Just because you're too stupid to play the game properly doesn't mean the game is poorly designed DSP.

>>14678953

Just so everyone is clear, this video is a joke.

>>14680327

Yes the stamina system is terrible as well.

>>14678785

>Theres no reason for that shit when you are doing real time action-based combat.

It's computationally cheaper than writing individual AI for each encounter. That's a damn good reason.

>>14680369

You're terrible, git gud.

>>14680352

No, it doesn't

To both of those

>>14680361

Which weapon skill do you have in major skills? Whatever it is, use that one and you'll miss very rarely unless you try fighting something well above your level or your fatigue is low.

>>14679912

As I said previously: you're a dumbass. First-person real-time RPGs have been around since before you were born, kiddo.

>>14680361

Dunmer

Lover sign

Agi favored

Stealth spec

Shortblade and conjuration major.

This gives you conjure dagger off the boat, which gives you a daedric damage dagger with a short blade skill boost. Go to Balmora mages guild, steal a filled soul gem and pay the enchanter to put 11 second on strike conjure shortblade on any piece of shit dagger. It will cost next to nothing and you now have an infinite durability, infinite use daederic dagger with skill buff and can kill any enemy in the game with ease by spam clicking and should almost never miss. Only the two liches, one from the dlc and the other in the Mournhold sewers, now pose a threat to you.

>>14680422

And I gave you counter-arguments to which you didn't even respond you fucking faggot. No u

>>14680456

Well, the thread sunk and I'm sure they were bad arguments considering your major gripe with the lack of animations is "muh immersion." You get a sound confirmation plus a little red splat when you hit. You get a different "woosh" sound when you miss. What more do you need? You expect a swinging weapon to make contact because you are coming back from Oblivion or Skyrim, which are swashbuckling sims. They don't have RPG combat. The only people who ever complain about Morrowind's combat, even back when it came out, are the people who are coming from console action games and expect it to be a console action game. These kinds of first-person RPGs have been around for decades. They all had the same kind of minimalist hit/miss confirmation. But, the only RPG to get so many complaints about it was Morrowind and this is directly due to the fact that Zenimax decided to market to lowest-common-denominator button-mashing console brainlets. In short, it's not a problem unless you are retarded, so stop pretending to sound smart.

>>14680396

>Nope, you're wrong, here's why

>Nuh uh! muh nostalgia is always right

/v/ should honestly love Skyrim given that it has constant grinding like morrowind (Much like JRPGs), shit gameplay like morrowind, is moddable like morrowind, and also has shitty scenery like morrowind.

>>14680603

>muh nostalgia

I first played morrowind after skyrim

You're retarded and have shit taste

>>14680621

More like cuckchan stumbled upon us.

>>14680650

>I-I'm totally not nostalgia blinded

>d-dice rolls are g-good

You can't even lie right.

>>14678762

>16 year old game still causes butthurt from melee fags who don't know all you have to do to get gud at hitting things is roll warrior sign and major a weapon type at the start

>>14678762

The video was clearly a joke, he even says so in the description cuckchanner.

>>14680771

This hasn't even been going on for 2 weeks. I mean we've been getting threads like this for a while, but not usually like the constant barrage we were hit with in the past three days.

>>14679860

>There's no point in builds if there is nothing limiting your character from becoming a God

The point is the Nerevarine's journey to Godhood.

>>14680796

It's more than 3 days; on other boards these faggots even admited they are came from there! They just became more and more aggressive and obvious. I guess because they can't go back anymore…

Probaly /tv/ or /leftypol/ will take them…

>>14680734

>Dice rolls are good

>Having the balls to claim other people are lying

wew

>>14678861

I've got it downloaded, I'll try encoding.

"Immersion" seeking e-larpers can't be satisfied without constant and "realistic" sensory input because they lack the mental faculties for dealing with abstractions.

>>14680944

>perform foot sweep

>enemy plays dodge animation with only their upper torso moving back

>foot clips through enemy feet

>enemy still standing

>>14680955

>perform foot sweep

>enemy jumps over it

>follows up with a counter hit

>enemy does an overhead swing with a weapon

>if you do your normal bob/weave dodge it does nothing

>have to sidestep or backflip out to dodge it

>>14680926

That would be much better than Morroshit's "combat".

>>14680944

>He doesn't realize HP is an abstraction

>It's not "oh no I'm at 1 hp and step on a nail and suddenly died", it's "I'm at 1 hp, which means my character is at their stamina/endurance limit, and the next hit they take will just happen to bypass their attention and hit a vital spot, killing them"

>>14681008

>happen to bypass their attention and hit a vital spot, killing them

>sheeeeit, I stepped on a nail and it hit a vital artery in my foot and I instantly died

>>14681029

You abviously stepped on the edge of the nail making it jump and jam itself into your jugular

>>14680926

>Is RNG fundamental to RPGs? If so, why?

Yes it is, and simply because of the fact that RPGs should be based more on how you BUILT your character than how you PLAY them, that's what makes it an RPG, the focus is on building a character and having the character overcome the challenges presented in the world. Player skill is still a factor, but it shouldn't be the deciding factor, rather the build of the character should be the deciding factor.

There is nothing wrong with a system where you get an audio and visual que that you missed. Morrowind has this in the form of blood when you hit along with a hit sound, and a miss sound as well as no blood when you miss.

>>14681102

But in the example I posted, your character's skill is the deciding factor in how much limb damage you do. I'd prefer it that your agility increases attack speed and how quickly you can dodge attacks so that your stats affect how hard it is to hit someone in a way that doesn't involve RNG, but that isn't possible with Morrowind scripting at the moment.

>>14681102

>RNG is the only way to make character builds matter

What the fuck is wrong with you people

>>14681309

No, because at the end of the day what matters more is where you the player are aiming. It is an Action RPG at that point. In order for it to be a true rpg it needs a little bit of RNG. RNG isn't always a bad thing when used properly, for example when the RNG is augmented by your stats and skills as it is in the d20 system: Sure you're rolling a random 20 sided die, but you're trying to hit a fixed target number and you get bonuses from stats and trained skills to help you hit the number.

>>14681336

All RPGs should be built on RNG because that's where their history lies. Maybe you've heard of this little thing called DnD or the d20 system?

>>14681309

>your character's skill is the deciding factor in how much limb damage you do

This is stupid. A lot of action-rpg hybrids do this and it is stupid when every swing is a guaranteed hit as long as you are in range. It always turns into a contest of timing against your opponents parries, and your level really only determines how long it takes to chip away at the health bar. A fixed damage range for each weapon and a dice roll to determine contact, based on the character's skill, is the better way to handle combat. It takes player skill out of the equation, which is what you want. You don't want to feel like you're actually in the middle of a sword fight when you play an RPG. You want to prepare your character beforehand and then see how that planning pays off when he gets into a fight.

>>14681336

>What the fuck is wrong with you people

We don't like to play the same kinds of game as you, nigger.

>>14681048

Doesn't explain how you can often get shot in the head with an arrow yet survive.

>>14681309

By the way, how does the example posted portray a dodge focused character? What if you have a dodge focused character build being played by a player who doesn't have good reaction time but still wants to play a dodge-based class?

>>14681345

>implying people haven't been hit in the head with an arrow and survived

Low hit damage: it scraped your cheek.

>>14681343

>Maybe you've heard of this little thing called DnD or the d20 system?

If you want to play pen and paper, go do it, don't hold vidya back because you're too retarded to explore other options

>>14681363

Alright fair enough, but can you explain stuff like Sephiroth's ultimate move doing so little damage?

>>14681374

Illusionary Magic

>>14681365

No one is holding video back retard. Action RPGs are already a thing and they're quite popular. I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't pretend your game is a real RPG when you have a focus on twitch-based combat.

>>14681374

I don't defend JRPGs, their design choices are basically random and have little to do with simulation.

>>14681365

If you want to play a swashbuckling sim, go do it. Don't hold vidya back because you're to retarded to explore other options.

>>14681381

> their design choices are basically random and have little to do with simulation.

http://just as bad as buzzfeed, why are you even linking to this site? use allthetropes.orain.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

>>14681365

Oh, and also Action fags shouldn't come into RPG games bitching about the RNG, just like how tacticsfags don't come into Action games pointing out how there are no tactics and everything is retarded and too simple.

>>14681355

You can play a dodge focused character by having a lot of acrobatics since by default jumps are more like sidesteps and their speed is determined by acrobatics skill. However if you want to play a character that dodges and you suck at dodging then you won't be able to do it effectively.

I think a good role playing GAME tests both the character's skill and the player's when possible. If you think it should only ever test the character's skill, then how do you deal with making it so that characters with low intelligence make bad decisions in combat? The answer is roleplaying of course, but what about the reverse? How does a dumb player play a smart character? You can't, which is the same situation as the one you describe with dodging. You can roleplay to be worse than yourself but not better. If you want a "game" that is all role no play to get around the intelligence problem then just read a book.

>what about strength/endurance/etc?

Won't work until VR is not shit in 50 years.

>what about skills?

For example a linguistics skill should do something like literally translate random words but the player has to figure out the syntax rules, or an alchemy skill lets you use apparatuses but you need to know what to put in them.

>>14681389

Action games without tactics are bad though, if you want to play a mindless test of reflexes then play a rhythm game.

>>14681381

>you shouldn't pretend your game is a real RPG when you have a focus on twitch-based combat.

You don't need RNG to not have a focus on twitch based combat

You might as well be arguing the game needs real time with pause and queued actions, maybe even go full WoW with tab targeting, auto attacks, and skill bars

>>14681389

Maybe they should, then action games might not be so brainless either

>>14681512

I was arguing that the ideal RPG tested the same skills of the player that it tests of the character, not that all games need to be this way. Not every RPG needs to go full on in either the role playing or game aspect, however I still don't see a reason why RNG is necessary.

Strategy games don't require RNG to test your decision making skills so why should RPGs? Perhaps you hit enemies if your accuracy is rated to be higher than their dodge, but these stats change dynamically throughout combat like missing increases your accuracy until you hit them then it resets. You'd still hit the enemy the same number of times as the RNG system, but you wouldn't randomly hit them every time or miss every time from luck.

>>14681686

Well said. But if he's complaining about character skill and muh arr enn geeee, iirc there was a morrowind mod that made the combat more real time- but it completely ruined the challenge for me.

>>14681708

>Mod for game with shit combat removes the shit combat's singular actual mechanic and it makes the game easier

What did you think would happen

>>14681708

Given how I'm the one that made >>14680926 I have no use for such a mod. The one you're referring to is probably the one that just gives the player 1000 attack which makes the weapon skills useless, agility somewhat useless, and breaks the balance because NPC attacks still miss.

>>14681686

Answer the following question directly: how does a dumb person roleplay a smart character?

If your answer is "they can't" then what I described as action RPGs is the ideal RPG, because why should intelligence be required to play an intelligent character if agility isn't required to play an agile character? If your answer is anything else, please explain how.

Also, dice rolls are absolutely RNG, do you even know what the acronym means? Random number generator. Obviously you can influence your chance of success with stats but at the end it's still rolling a random number for you. I'm not a retard who doesn't know that fatigue, agility, weapon skill, attack bonus, and more aren't factors in your chance of success in Morrowind. I'm not arguing against those, I'm arguing at the concept of those factors going into a equation with a random outcome instead of one with a consistent one.

Regardless of whether you hit or not is random or consistent, the real problem with Morrowind is the lack of visual feedback when you miss. If enemies had a dodge animation then this wouldn't be a problem. When a certain animation bug gets fixed in OpenMW I'll make it so missing causes the enemy to dodge to the side, backwards, duck, or jump depending on where you're looking so these pointless debates will end.

>>14681727

More like

>Mod that removes the combat that revolves around actual thinking and character building and instead adds combat that takes no actual thinking and no misses, making it piss easy

>>14681764

Maybe he's roleplaying as a cuckchanner, he's certainly got their obnoxiousness right.

Remember when stupid arguments like this wouldn't happen here? Good times.

>>14681401

>However if you want to play a character that dodges and you suck at dodging then you won't be able to do it effectively.

Then it's not a good roleplaying system.

>>14681821

>By putting points into intelligence, you twit.

How does that make your character make better decisions in dialogue/combat/etc?

>>14681854

Perhaps an even easier example would be putting points into charisma, if you can't think of clever things to say in dialogue then any good DM will give you penalties to the charisma check (or the reverse if your character isn't very charismatic but you come up with some genius shit).

>>14681764

>Morrowind combat

>Revolves around actual thinking and character building

Years of telling retards who don't know how to play the game to git gut and this is what we're stuck with, people who still don't know what the fuck they're talking about but are filled with smug because they think they overcame a great challenge

>>14681884

Hold the button to walk back and swing at the enemy, or alternatively make a stealth archer and trivialize every encounter.

Combat in TES games was always shit, even by abysmal cRPG standards.

>>14681884

>Years of telling retards who don't know how to play the game to git gut

I'm guessing you're one of those retards. Try looking up a guide or go back to your ESL classes.

>>14678762

Yes, Elder Scrolls went to shit after it up and abandoned its tabletop roots.

>>14681854

It depends on the specific game and how intelligence factors into the formula. More points in intelligence mean better chance of a successful roll. I'm amazed this is still flying over your head.

>>14681884

It's not a great challenge. Morrowind is an easy game that is easy to master and I find it fascinating that there are idiots who can't figure it out.

>>14681401

>then how do you deal with making it so that characters with low intelligence make bad decisions in combat?

You could easily implement this with some kind of "chance to panic on damage" stat which increases with various character stats, including INT. It'd work best in an AP system, where the more flustered your character is, the less he can do compared to a focused, nonchalant combatant. A higher INT stat could unlock tactical options, or the ability to combine actions and "squeeze in" more, like in Mario + Rabbids.

>dumb player, smart character

You should not account within the game for factors outside of the game. If someone with autism wants to play a suave ladies' man, then that's his problem.

>>14681821

>A true random number generator generates a completely random number.

That is absolutely wrong. Range is irrelevant when generating random numbers.

>>14681940

That sounds awful to play for more than 10 minutes.

>>14678923

>jews trying this hard to psyop against hooktube

Hey cakekike when are you going to start banning for this shit?

>>14682127

>That is absolutely wrong. Range is irrelevant when generating random numbers.

Where did I say anything about range?

>>14681884

>heh.. what? did you expect a game to be functional without having hundreds of hours of knowledge from multiple play through to be able to actually hit your enemy if you decide to build your character in any way that even remotely deviates from a baseline melee character? what are you some neo-/v/ cuckchanner bro.. heh…..

>>14681940

See, this isn't roleplaying, since your personal abilities determined your success, and not the character parameters.

It doesn't take hundreds of hours to figure out Morrowind's combat. It shouldn't even take one.

>>14682217

>hundreds of hours of knowledge

Or you could just read the tooltips when making your character. What the fuck is wrong with GenZtards?

>>14682240

>if you decide to build your character in any way that even remotely deviates from a baseline melee character

Looks like morrowtards still can't read. Odd considering that's about 85% of the games content.

>>14682240

Don't blame me, I knew that shit long before I even played the game like 5 or 6 years ago.

>>14682216

>A true random number generator generates a completely random number.

>You roll a number that is restricted to a set of very specific parameters.

Rolling a d6 generates a random number with a range of 1-6. According to what you said above, that number isn't random because it has a specific minimum and maximum value.

>trolls trolling trolls: the thread

If you need to bring up ancient systems that were never meant to be ported into a 3D simulated-combat environment, you've already lost the argument. Die rolls are simply unfit for the task at hand. KCD does it right.

>>14682247

My second character in Morrowind, when I was 15, was a stealth/magic character. I had less than ten hours in the game by that point. That character had no trouble in melee combat even though I was a dumb teenager who couldn't even figure out how to get into the Nashkel mines in Baldur's Gate.

>>14682254

The result of your roll is determined by a formula. It isn't just a fixed range of numbers. There is far more to it than pure chance.

> According to what you said above, that number isn't random because it has a specific minimum and maximum value.

You're the one that decided "specific parameters" means the range of numbers on a die.

>>14682281

Even better:

>Morrowind thread goes with chill discussions

>Skyrim get mentioned by refugee

>Get BTFO, refugee makes a Skyrim thread

>Skyrikm thread get closed because major autism

>Refugee open Morrowind bashing thread

Why mods allowe this? These are fucking obvious bait threads!

>>14682301

>determined by a formula

>There is far more to it than pure chance.

In Morrowind, sure. In other games which roll virtual dice, you're wrong; at best, one could say those numbers are pseudorandom. You're wrong to call them nonrandom simply because randomness is a minor factor instead of a major one.

>>14682300

They made what they intended, a 3d simulation of playing an RPG.

>>14682300

Mostly good post that goes full retard in the last sentence.

>>14682332

I'd assume the same reason Mark screwed up the Halo server and left us waiting for half an hour.

>>14682332

>oy vey ban people for not liking swing and miss simulator

the absolute state of morrowcucks

>>14682360

If randomness isn't the only factor, then the outcome wasn't random. What RPG is pure RNG with no formulae? Because if you can name it, I will agree it is a piece of shit.

>>14682230

>not the character parameters.

>I lack basic reading comprehension skills

nice dude

>>14682538

>>14682230

The only thing I don't agree with is solving a rubix cube, because I feel like that would take forever and extend sessions. Casting a spell should be singing a song or reciting something; if you sing out of key then your spell does less damage, or if you stumble on reciting something. If you have higher stats you have to say or sing less and less to get it to come out.

>>14682538

You said stats modified the challenge, but the challenge is still mostly based on your actual physical and mental abilities. What did I fail to comprehend?

>>14682431

The word you're looking for is pseudorandom. It isn't a hard line between random or nonrandom.

You know we've gone full cuckchan when the anti morrowing underage niggers are coming out of the woodwork.

>>14682217

>without having hundreds of hours of knowledge from multiple playthroughs

Back in my day we just read the manual. Too hard? All you had to do was make the weapon you want to hit people with your major skill. I know, it sounds like madness, how do these RPG game developers ever expect anybody to understand their labyrinthine logic?

>>14682217

Anon I know I called you retarded and that made you mad but you didn't have to go and prove me right

>>14678861

>Hooknosetube

>>14683148

Not sure if this is bait, but the amount of people who unironically believe that giving your data to the Google behemoth and countless unlisted third parties is preferable to not giving it up at all is astounding. The site was made specifically so you can watch the videos without giving those fags views or ad revenue.

>>14678861

Hooktube is only necessary when the video is at risk of removal, given that in the past, (supposedly) videos have been removed after receiving visitors from 8chan. There really isn't any proof for this actually happening, so it doesn't make sense to be anal about it, but this is the only legitimate justification I've heard. Any accusations of e-celeb shilling should be reserved for very small channels, as they're the only ones who would actually benefit substantially from the small viewership they could achieve shilling on /v/.

It needed better visual feedback, and you get weird situations where things can effectively have a double miss chance (mostly that happens with ranged weapons, where you first have to hit a target that may be moving and far away, and only then does the game roll to see if you actually hit). If you're intent on emulating tabletop dicerolls, you need to take the action game/shooter mechanics out of it. If you want action combat with RPG mechanics, find something else for stats to adjust. Damage is what Oblivion did, and that sort of worked, but I think a better choice would have been fatigue consumption.

The real problem with the combat was how braindead the combat was for martial characters, since there's no benefit from varying your attacks and no reason not to just check "always use best attack" and spam click.

>>14682217

>needs hundreds of hours to know how to pick the skill that corresponds to the weapons he intends to use as a major skill

Morrowind's combat is bad. That does not mean it is hard.

Morrotards are still at it. "You're retarded if you don't get these mechanics!". No, we get them, they just suck.

>>14683462

>that you don't

What do you mean by this? You can apply the lens of "all games are you roleplaying a character" but by that logic anything can be considered an RPG. Are you saying that the player 'should' make an effort to roleplay? Are you talking about yourself?

>>14683493

Then actually say so, instead of hiding behind the stale as fuck "lol i swing but not hit anything" schtick

>>14683507

>what are cRPGs

>>14683511

Faggots try to pass off that reality should dictate that when you swing a sword in a video game, it should hit. But that's not how games, especially roleplaying video games, work. Sure, when you're playing a game you assume the role of the character you're playing, but some games are much more complex than that. In Morrowind, your aptitude is demonstrated by the amount of points you place in certain stats. Wanna move faster? Put points in Athletics. Jump higher? Put points in Acrobatics. Wanna be able to hit a target adequately? Allocate the points into a dedicated combat skill. That's what I mean. By doing, you get better at it.

>>14683587

The problem I think with Morrowind is less the fact that you can miss, but that they chose a first person live action combat system, where you swinging your sword into an enemy and hitting them looks identical (minus blood) to you swinging and passing right through them. If, for example, the combat was turn based, and thus animations played outside of player control, it would feel much more fair and I doubt people would complain. As it stands you can be aiming directly at someone, "hit" them with your weapon and die immediately after because the RNG didn't dictate that to be an actual hit.

>>14683617

>this argument again

Read the thread.

>>14683627

Where is he wrong, faggot?

>>14683768

read the thread

Turn based combat is shit.

Shit.

>>14683959

scrub

>>14681008

>it's "I'm at 1 hp, which means my character is at their stamina/endurance limit,

Then why don't stamina potions restore my HP?

>and the next hit they take will just happen to bypass their attention and hit a vital spot, killing them"

Why doesn't levelling perception increase my maximum HP?

It would be kind of cool to see a game where HP is explicitly handled as a measure of that character's awareness and reflexes, with them auto-blocking (perhaps not as effectively as when the player intentionally blocks) incoming attacks that would've "hit", and enemies landing a killing blow when they hit a character that is out of HP and hence unable to auto-block.(U+200B was here) No idea how it could be implemented without regenerating health, though.

t. idea guy

>>14684241

No, that's TESO. Played by hollowed out husks of what we used to call "people"

>>14684319

True, I lost my only friend to TESO roleplay.

>>14681008

by "abstract" did you mean "lazy"?

>>14683881

He's unironically not wrong. Missing is fine, but when you are directly controlling your character, missing makes zero fucking sense. The abstraction is very poorly done.

Worst of all, it could be fixed with a block or dodge animation.

>>14678762

No, and no they wouldn't. This is what happens when you let a bunch of tabletop fags rig up a game with huge limitations and somehow later it becomes industry standard because lack of creativity and copycat practices rule the games industry. It's just retarded. The game itself is mediocre to the point where this becomes unbearable rather fast regardless what the rose tinted nostalgia fags tell you.

>>14683493

The two are not mutually exclusive

Elder scrolls games have never had good combat and morrowind's could desperately use a good rework just as much as any other game in the series, but if you're fresh off the boat dying to mudcrabs you can't hit then you legitimately have brain damage

>>14683881

Reading the thread won't convince anyone, it's just shit arguments about the game needing to be just like tabletop that both don't understand what this game is and miss the point of what tabletop mechanics were meant to achieve in the first place

>>14684676

The game isn't about combat, the reason to get good at it is so that the 10% of the game that consists of it is better able to blend into the background

>>14678762

You always hear people complaining about how Morrowind has hit chances, but you never hear people complaining about the way Skyrim locks up all your inputs (including pressing escape) whenever you perform an action like jumping. It's fucking impossible to fight effectively on anything but perfectly flat terrain when stepping down a slope or alongside a rock makes all your controls completely lock up.

>>14685055

There's a mod that lets you miss half of your attacks from 1 inch away in skyrim?

>>14684689

>The game isn't about combat, the reason to get good at it is so that the 10% of the game that consists of it is better able to blend into the background

It isn't? But traveling anywhere means combat (Cliff Racers…). Visiting a dungeon? Combat. Retrieving Dwemer Puzzle Box (main quest) ? Combat. Failed pickpocketing attempt? Combat. It pretends to be a roleplaying game, but only COMBAT is viable.

>>14684661

>>14684689

>all these late fags who refuse to read the thread and want to start the same conversation that has already been gone over again

Read >>14681102 and then consider getting good so you don't miss so much.

>>14685132

>It pretends to be a roleplaying game, but only COMBAT is viable.

Are you implying combat isn't a big part of Role-playing games? Son, are you mentally retarded?

>>14685386

In a good one, I should be able to play pure thief or even smooth-talker.

>>14685375

>Strawmanning this hard

Kill yourself

>>14685404

Yeah, and a theif and a smooth talker both have roles on combat in tabletop RPGs. You simply don't know what you're talking about. Dating all the way back to DnD combat has always had a central focus on role-playing games because you can't talk your way out of a fight with a dragon, nor can you steal your way out of it.

>>14685416

>implying I'm strawmanning anything

Nigger, you're refusing to read the thread and reply to the arguments which have already been made and are just sitting up there waiting for your lazy ass to scroll.

>>14685375

>There's literally no defense other than you hear a faint sound when you sometimes hit

It's a trash idea. Dicerolls are used to abstract a lack of player skill. You could easily make the player swing slower, do less damage, or have a greater cooldown for their attack animations, or make them cost more stamina, or unlock better and more varied attacks as time goes on. Instead it's 'nope you miss press M1 again for the 90th time'.

>>14685055

>When everything's said and done, I will still ignore everything that was said and done and just tell myself Skyrim isn't a pile of shit.

>>14685421

>It's a trash idea.

Funny, it worked fine all throughout the 90's for RPGs. Only seemed to start being a problem when 2010's babys started crying about it.

>>14685421

also

> 'nope you miss press M1 again for the 90th time'.

Git gud, legitimately.

>>14685420

I'm refusing to do it because I've already done so

You absolute mental midget

>>14685432

>mental midget

Hi DSP.

>I've already done so

Oh, then why aren't you replying to those points that were made? Do you not have anything to say to refute what they're saying?

>>14685438

>Oh, then why aren't you replying to those points that were made? Do you not have anything to say to refute what they're saying?

Because I already have, and I already did

You still don't understand this after like three posts because you're a fucking idiot

>>14685460

I miss when the first exodus had just happened, there were no cuckfugees, and Morrowind threads flowed like sweet Mazte with no autism over "why isn't this game animated like a game from 2005?" bullshit.

>>14685463

Your entire history in this thread is snarky one-line quips. It's obvious you have been skimming over the argument, at best, and then adding your useless two-cents here and there just because you feel compelled to contribute. But you have never been truly participating in the argument and every point you have made has been torn apart. You just don't have the patience to actually read and realize that. So, how can you be expected to have the patience to play an RPG? Better stick with the Uncharted games.

>>14685482

>wuh you're arguing because you can't play the game wuh

More strawman bullshit, this is exactly why my replies are so short and condescending, because your enlightened arguments are actually fucking garbage and you haven't given me a reason to expend any more effort than that

>>14685481

Yes those were pretty good days for the board. I remember having Daggerfall threads, too. And I remember shitposting the Fallout 4 shills right off the face of the earth. Now we have to tolerate these genetic rejects, even as they seep into threads about good games just to shit all over the place. It would be different if they stuck to their one Skyrimfu containment threads, but they ooze out, like the gunk from a rotting onion, and cover everything in their fetid stink.

>>14685507

>it's your fault I can't be bothered to actually read

>>14685512

If your ideas aren't properly getting across, the problem is yours for writing them poorly, don't expect others to take you seriously if you can't communicate without going into a spastic fit

Summer is going to be hell.

>>14685417

Avoid the fucking dragon then. But the rest of the game should be playable without combat.

>>14685545

Sorry, the dragon was the encounter the GM made for you, it's that or you don't play tonight. It's sitting in a cave you have to go explore because the item you need for a quest is in there (sound familiar?), You have to go through it. RPGs aren't 100% freeform and never have been and at their core has ALWAYS been combat. The freedom of even tabletop rpgs is basically an illusion. The real freedom is you're free to build your character how you want, they're not going to always be able to avoid battle. And there is nothing realistic about always avoiding battle either, conflict is a part of life and there are some things that can't be reasoned with or worked around. Also RPG players like combat so long as it's tactical and allows them to express their character build.

>>14685555

>Lots of Morrowind bashing threads recently.

There have been plenty of morrowind threads recently, I don't remember any negative ones other than this

I wouldn't be surprised if they announced it at E3, but they've gone to a lot of effort to convince people they're working on other stuff if so

I'd think they would try to squeeze as much money out of ESO as possible before putting a new one on the market

>>14685426

>It worked fine

For what, Baldur's gate and CRPGs? Sure, you weren't directly in the first person swinging a sword around only for it to say 'Miss miss miss' over and over again while you spam M1 like an autist because that's the only viable tactic.

Honestly, is there any reason to not play a spell caster in Morrowind?

>>14685588

>For what, Baldur's gate and CRPGs?

Yes anon, it worked fine for CRPGs.

>None of the CRPGs before Morrowind were in first person

Jesus christ anon. Try looking up 90's dungeon crawlers some time. Also you're basically implying TES started with 3. Pants on head retarded.

>"miss miss miss" over and over again while you spam M1 like an autist

Or you could plan your shots, power up your attacks to make them more powerful and more accurate, and actually build your character so they don't miss every shot. I just made a Redguard Longswordsman yesterday that started with a 45 in longsword. He doesn't "miss miss miss over and over again". When you yourself admit that your strategy is autistic maybe it's time to reexamine it.

>>14685588

>spam M1 like an autist because that's the only viable tactic

Cease

Morrowind isn't a good game. There's a bunch of reasons. For one linking your attribute gain to your skills is a terrible idea. It just forces you to pointlessly grind and isn't natural at all. You might as well just cheat at that point. The quests are mostly menial tasks. The combat is very basic. The only unique mechanic is making extremely overpowered spells or potions to completely break the game which an exploit that is easy to pull off. Not to mention many game breaking bugs. Overall it's a pretty boring game. There's not much to it.

>>14685662

>You can't really do any of that, Spamming M1 is literally the most effectual tactic regardless of your build

Nigger, you are dead wrong. Powered up attacks can do bonus effects, for example I was playing with my claymore wielding Enchanting High Elf and the powered up chop was knocking enemies over letting me get off more free hits. Legitimately git gud and stop talking shit like you know better because you don't retard.

>>14685561

Well, we're playing Morrowind - an OPEN WORLD ROLE PLAYING GAME, no? So I can avoid the fucking dragon. And Morrowind advertised itself as "you can be anything" (I still have the manual…) - so I should be able to play pure fucking thief or smooth-talker. A warrior doesn't get forced to steal all the time, and a thief will get forced into combat too much. It's a combat simulator (a bad one), not a role playing game…I mean, during the FIRST MAIN QUEST MISSION, you have to get out a Dwemer's Puzzle Box. There's no excuse for that to be impossible without combat - but it fucking is. The centurions will attack you…

>>14685620

This shit again. "If you make a good (combat) character, he won't miss!". We know, the mechanics still suck.

>>14685662

Also:

>you can't build your character so they don't miss every shot

Git. Fucking. Gud. Scrub.

>>14685684

When you read "Open World Roleplaying Game" your autism kicks in and you think "total freedom". You're wrong, I just told you that RPGs and their "freedom" is a lie and an illusion. You're playing what the gm made for you, you aren't avoiding shit. Just like in real life.

>We know, the mechanics still suck.

Then tell >>14685662 because he just literally said "you can't really do all of that".

>>14685684

>"If you make a good (combat) character, he won't miss!"

If you insist on making a character with literally not one single combat-related skill, the game isn't for you

>>14685697

>you can hit far more just by spamming

Except you'll miss more and they won't do as much damage. Git. gud.

<It's all hack and slash to me

>implying I said that

Rpgs are basically tactics games all about how you build your character. To me it's all RPG-goodness. You don't understand what an RPG is.

>>14685693

>When you read "Open World Roleplaying Game" your autism kicks in and you think "total freedom". You're wrong, I just told you that RPGs and their "freedom" is a lie and an illusion. You're playing what the gm made for you, you aren't avoiding shit. Just like in real life.

Total freedom isn't required, just a lot more than what Morrowind offers.

>>14685694

>If you insist on making a character with literally not one single combat-related skill, the game isn't for you

What about a "night warrior" who sneaks up to people and sneak attacks them for instant kill? That doesn't fucking work. Sneak attacks MISS and then you're fucked. And they do too little damage anyway. So not only are we forced to combat, but a specific type of combat.

>>14685697

Seriously, how does pointing out that freedom in an RPG is actually an illusion (which it is, feel free to ask any GM) make me a "powergamer"? Oh, you're the same retard who thought FPS CRPGs were invented with Morrowind and that Dungeon Crawlers don't count as setting precedent for RPG systems.

CUCKCHAN GET OUT

>>14685709

>4 times damage is too little for a sneak attack

>>14685712

<RPGs to me are about minmaxing and powergaming my way to victory

>more things I didn't say

There is a massive difference between enjoying building a character and minmaxing you fucking retard.

>>14685716

Yes it's not enough. The bonus should depend on the sneak skill anyway. And again, in normal combat, you miss once and it's fine. You're an armored badass anyway. You can tank a few hits. But a rogue walking around in a shirt? You miss, you fucking die. Sneak attacks suck (sneaking in general as well).

>>14685718

>>14685715

>Muh freedom is just an illusion

>Freedom is bullshit, Hack and slash bing bing wahoo!

You're the guy who would hit quest giving NPCs if they talked for too long, weren't you? And then you wonder why nobody wants you in their game. You're so attached to morrowind because single player shit is all you're really left with huh?

>>14685725

Perhaps you should stop trying to kill people with boxcutters.

>>14685725

Let's think about it this way: it's tough enough to sneak up to someone, so if I manage to do it, I should be rewarded - WITH A KILL, not a fucking miss and certain death.

>>14685732

>strength too low to deal damage

>agility too low to hit

>speed too low to get away in time

Why are you trying to assassinate people as a mage?

>>14685742

>building my character with one major skill as a combat skill is too hard and they're telling me to gitgud waaahhhh!!!

>they m-must be p-power g-gamers who o-only care about the-their precious stat bonuses

AUTISM

What's making me laugh is I'm the guy who gets immersed and never attacks anything unless it presents a clear threat. Git gud tho seriously

>>14685750

You sound upset. Try calming down. I understand your powergamer's instinct is to yell and then attempt to assault anything that looks like it might be worth XP or Gold, but that doesn't apply here, or to anyone with taste really.

>>14685756

I sound upset? You're the one raving about non-existent powergamers and losing your shit.

>>14685759

Not at all. I'm telling you that the game has bad gameplay, and you're getting upset about this. So upset you even go on fedora-tier tangents about 'muh freedomz'.

>>14685770

>you're getting upset because I said you're getting upset

lol no you've just gotten BTFO this whole thread so now you're carrying on and on about powergamers for like an hour. Do you suffer from autism? Or were you the kid who got ganked by high-level players in old MMOs so you never got good and now powergamers live in your head rent free 24/7? You're a retard who said you can't actually build your character to hit anything. Seriously, I could go on and on, your post history is just bitchboy crying and denial. Git gud and:

GO BACK TO CUCKCHAN, YOU'RE NOT WELCOME HERE

>>14685785

>You got BTFO

You shouldn't call people cuckchanners when you're straight off reddit.

>Muh powergamers, how dare you call me out

I pointed out the truth though. Redguard Longswordsman is literally the most common and basic hack and slash minmax build. You are a power gamer, you have no interest in anything but making something numerically powerful because you suck at actually playing games.

>MMOs

I don't play MMOs. Evidently you do, though, seeing as how you like WoW-tier shit.

>Yur dumb, why u not minmax like me and my (34) post history???

>>14685795

>I don't play mmos

Oh, so you did get heavily bullied when you tried one and now you can't touch them? Or are you a consoletard?

>reddit

Never been there, are they living in your head rent free too?

<he made one super-powerful build

<he must only minmax

Seriously, how big was the guild that would gank you on a daily basis? What server? Is there a history of this recorded somewhere I can watch?

>>14685682

Any attack can knock people over. It's just dependent on the enemy's agility stat and your damage. Strong attacks in Morrowind have no special effects, they just increase damage. Power attacks with special effects were added in Oblivion.

>>14685802

>Why u no like MMOs???

I don't enjoy them. That's all there is to it. They're inferior to other Genres (RPGs and Roguelikes) in every way except that they let you talk to people, and I'm not a reddit faggot like you who has to constantly socialize to enjoy myself.

>Never been there

It's obvious to everyone.

>Getting this pissed off that I knew you made a min maxed build

>Admitting you made a min maxed build

So just yesterday you made a Min maxed build and it's also what you suggest others do if they want to "git gud"? You're a min maxer hack and slasher, but you lack the skill to just play an actual hack and slash game.

>>14685812

Ah, my mistake. But the attack still did increased damage because I had powered it up so it caused a stun when a normal attack wouldn't have, right? I haven't even gotten that deep into morrowind, all the more reason this minmax trashtalk is so funny.

>>14685818

>I don't enjoy them. That's all there is to it.

How big was the guild? How often would they hit you up? Like every time you logged on or what? Seriously just show me on the doll where the minmaxers touched you.

By the way all you have to do to get good at morrowind, as I've been saying since the start of this thread is:

Make a weapon skill you want to you use your major skill

inb4:

>CRAZY MINMAX FAGGOTRY!!!!! OH GOD!!! YOU SUCK ALL THE FUN OUT OF GAMES WITH YOUR OVERPOWERED PLAYING!!!

>>14685843

>Holy shit, am I living rent free in your head now?

Am I mentioning you to random strangers who aren't you? I know you just learned the meme but come on nigga.

<terrible advice

I'm sorry, your autism is running wild. Take your pills, maybe get outside for a bit. Or, you know, there is always:

>>>/cuckchan/

>>14685818

Where is it obvious that the guy is from plebbit? Also MMOs are inferior to many other games, because everyone tried to to copy Evercrack. The only recent one that did it right was FF XVI and even that one is inferior to any other real RPG or old MMO. Also personally attacking someone for making a OP build in a over 10 year old game? Seriously?

>>14685853

Plebbit spacing and crying cuckchan because people disagree with him. It's a common thing, because they feel apprehensive about being called out on their own being a newfag, so they do it as quickly as they can.

>MMOs are inferior because of evershit

And WoW. They were never that great in the first place, though. Dunno about Final Fantasy "XVI", but XIV was more of the same shit with a different coat of paint. The only reason it even improved was because they fucked up so bad and it tanked.

>Attacking someone

I don't really care what he does, but read the thread. You don't tell people that they're shit because they refuse to use OP builds.

>>14685849

I'm still living rent free in your head eh? Stay mad that your shit game got called out. I'm glad that you refugees are getting pushed out of here because nobody tolerates your god awful taste.

>>14685835

>Make a weapon skill you want to you use your major skill

Isn't that a nobrainer for the entire Elder Scrolls series? This is exactly how you are supposed to play all Elder Scrolls work before Skyrim work. In fact you are forced to that when you enter your make up class and all premade classes are like that.

>>14685865

By FF XIV I mean the one that still exists. Skyrim is hardly a RPG. Not only is the character sheet is so dumbed down, that it could be as well only a RPG element, the Dialogs have hardly any options, although Elder Scrolls was never famous for its speech tests, the System is so wussy, that there are no limits and thus you can become Conan-Merlin, king of Thieves. Skyrim isn't a RPG, its a narcissistic supply aping one. Found the plebbitor.

>>14685902

Yeah, Nu-XIV (Not XVI) Still isn't that great. It's just a cut above the usual trash that is MMOs.

>Skyrim is hardly an RPG

It's a shit game, but it's still an RPG. You still grind skills, you still acquire gear, you still level up, you still get perks, you still play a role and make a character. The gameplay is fucking shit and your options are limited, but Morrowind has the same problems, so you can settle for the TES games not being RPGs or you can fuck off.

>Conan-Merlin king of Thieves

Play an Alchemist or a Mage in Morrowind. You can 1-up that easily and become King Zeus Thundercock of Pussy Mountain by just stacking buffs for days.

>Found the plebbitor

Yeah, I just did.

Morrotards are STILL at it. "Get good!" "Get your weapon skill up!". Boring. So do you guys have any actually good RPGs to recommend?

>>14685917

So you are willing to reply to me although I have echoed this place's general sentiment. Cool. This enables my favorite technique of not engaging in a dialog with faggots. Remeber that everything I am going to post has already been posted a million times on 4cuck. If you don't believe, just check the only existing copy of the old halfcuck archive you have to find yourself. Fun!

The first thing that makes Skyrim not an RPG but a Hexen clone with RPG elements is as I have already said the dumbed down character sheet. The system has totally ditched all stats including a the notion of a level limit. This means that if you are autistic enough, you can max everything. The other thing is the fact, that the old Elder Scrolls leveling system is still in place; The more you do a thing, the better you get at that thing. Since there is no limit, the game game enables you to become Conan-Merlin, King of Thieves. In fact all official walkthroughs seem to expect from you to do that.

>>14685707

Autists are the fucking worst, I know.

ass

>>14685941

>Morrotards

Your friends at Something Awful having a kick out of this thread, goon?

>>14685946

>General sentiment

You should read the thread.

>Million times on 4cuck

Why are you posting on cuckchan?

>Muh clones

>It's not an RPG, there are not enough numbers!

You can do the same shit in morrowind with absolute ease. Oblivion too. Therefore none of the three are RPGs, by your standards.

>>14686010

The next thing that makes Skyrim not an RPG is the lack of a dialog options, because all characters have to be dubbed. Voice actors don't work for water, bread and the eternal love of Todd Howard. They want fucking money. The next problem Bethesda had to solve is getting the speech samples on one DVD, because Skyrim had to get out for both major consoles of its time and the Nintendo Switch.So what's the solution? Limiting how much the characters yap of course! This leads to the total uselessness of the Speech skill tree. Just look at that. There is either only extremely hard or piss easy. The former is only relevant in the game once according to wiki. For a test you can pass very easily by lopping around a few fire balls and improve your destruction skills. .

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Speech#Persuasion_Options

>>14685941

Geneforge Saga. For more, lurk more.

>>14685865

>Plebbit spacing

Nigger,your posting style is closer to meme spacing than mine.

>>14685902

>Isn't that a nobrainer for the entire Elder Scrolls series?

It should be but apparently doing so is minmaxing powergaming. Apparently enlightened people play TES as a mage with no stealth or short blade but who works primarily as an assassin.

>>14686221

Such things are normal in RPGs. The real fun for me begins with finding all the goofy builds that shouldn't even exist. Good RPG let you do some oddball builds.

>>14686374

Also this. Play Geneforge you plebs.

It's quite dated in terms of UI and mechanics, doing the bare minimum in a few things only, but overall it's how you actually make an RPG.

Tons of choices, compelling story, no black&white morality with instant rewards for picking one and you can abuse the fuck out of the system to make yourself into a goddamn monster because the entire gameplay, story and world support that shit. It's not even cheesing or exploiting like in Morrowind, it's actually part of the setting in that world.

>>14682362

>3d simulation of playing an RPG.

Then they can go play one of the older Final Fantasies (remastered for better graphics).

If people are walking around in a realistic environment, they expect realistic things to happen. Either don't make simulate physical objects moving around (turn based, Final Fantasy style), or DO make it simulate reality in that aspect (action RPG).

"You missed because dice" is fucking stupid.

>>14686437

>See, the alternative was to actually fix the problem, the feedback you get from your oponent dodging. This means actually having to implent dodge maneuvers and maybe some other fancy shit.

>But that's not enough, because you also fucked up defenses. Now you only get to stack armor and that's it.

This is why future action RPGs need to be of either the KCD (slow, realistic) or Kingdom Hearts//Ni no Kuni 2/FFXV (fast action) variety.

>>14686475

>earlobe spacing

I mean I knew this was a troll thread, but…

>>14686456

Less Bethesda style RPGs can only be a good thing, so it must be inferred that kingdom kike is a bad thing.

>>14686487

>It was okay in Ultima Underworld

No it fucking wasn't

>>14686447

>"You missed because dice" is fucking stupid.

No, it fucking isn't. That's the gameplay. Your oponent managed to dodge your attack because he is faster, you're tired or unskilled or whatever other factor that led to this outcome. It's not the dice rolling that's a problem, it's the feedback you get.

"You missed because dice, but we'll show you actually hitting anyway" is the actual problem.

>>14686487

To be fair, you compare the combat with Arx Fatalis or Dark Messiah, and the proper feedback those games give you makes it a lot better. It's a matter of expectations, playing those games.

Top down cameras actually do have a small problem with vertical movement due to the lack of depth. You hardly know where your character is since it depends entirely on how high he actually is and the best you can get is a shadow on the ground depicting his actual position, the distance between it and the character an indicator of how high he is.

There's also top layers and floors that need to be drawn whenever you're controlling a character high enough to see them and there's also the low need for jumping anyway since obstacles are placed for decoration or as barriers, not for you to cross. Unless they require a skill check to cross, in which rolling Acrobatics and performing a specific animation will do the job.

>>14686499

>A lauded game is retroactively shit because I say so.

Survey says: no.

Why do you feel the need to get angry instead of adjusting your childish expectations? Sure, it might be jarring at first, but thrashing about while pretending the game should adjust to your desires instead of simply finding the best way to play the game is ridiculous. It's not like it's difficult. It's okay to say you simply don't like abstract combat– but oh wait, I guess you're afraid that other anonymous people would realize that you aren't a true "hardcore gamer," so you have to make the game seem like it is objectively bad.

Here, I'll go first. Remember Ultima Underworld? I couldn't bear to play that game, not because of the combat, but because using the mouse feels like dragging a mouse over gravel and most of the interaction is clicking based even if you learn hotkeys. Fuck that shit.

>>14686475

Hope you're joking, there were a lot of instances where he didn't reddit space on the messages you replied to and

>(40)

Oh lol

>>14686521

Anon, I only called 2206d7 out for meme spacing. The other faggot I only said his style was closer than mine is to meme spacing. Also yeah I've been posting in this thread on and off since it was made. Sorry we can't all be fresh to thread, what's the matter were you busy posting on cuckchan?

>>14686519

>abstract combat

Abstract combat should look and feel abstract. Physical combat should look and feel physical.

There's nothing difficult or controversial about this.

>>14686526

>posting this much

You need help.

>>14686526

>>14686475

>Anon, I only called 2206d7 out for red dit spacing.

You're a fucking retard, there's a difference between separating lines for the sake of flow, and compulsively hitting enter twice because of site specific text formatting.

>Sorry we can't all be fresh to thread, what's the matter were you busy posting on cuckchan?

He's pointing out that you're a hypersensitive autist who has to reply to every single post in the thread.

>>14686546

Nigger, are you actually from reddit?

>>14686558

>trolled this easily

This thread is full of nonwhites isn't it

>>14686519

Anon, you're talking with people that refuse to learn how to play videogames. They don't care about the rules or gamemechanics and learning how to use them, they'd rather the game changes to suit their personal vision of how it should play.

I shit you not, this must be the fag that goes to KCD threads and complains about the combat not being realistic because enemies still pommel his shit when he blocks them when he hasn't even finished the tutorial

>>14686526

>I only called 2206d7 out for meme spacing.

>using IDs like usernames

Kill yourself. You did nothing but provoke him into exagerating it even more. Enough with the "redditspacing", why would you tell the newfaggots how you're spotting them, or worse: falling for easy bait like that?

>>14686546

>Physical combat should look and feel physical.

I'll never understand why people can't grasp the concept of roleplaying in roleplaying games

>>14686558

See? Called it. He was baiting you tards.

>>14686569

>the concept of roleplaying in roleplaying games

I honestly think that this is the crux of it. Imagine you were playing a LARP with your friends, of the "LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!" variety. Now imagine if you hit somebody with a plastic sword and he said "You didn't hit me!" Not "Ow!" or "You need to hit harder to get through my armor" or even "That weapon's no good against me!" but "You didn't hit me!"

You'd think he was fucking cheating, wouldn't you? You probably wouldn't want to play with him again. You saw it hit. You didn't see him dodge or block it, but somehow, through some unexplained phenomenon, you didn't hit him. You wouldn't want to play with him again.

That's the entire reason people hate this shit: lazy devs sending conflicting pieces of visual feedback.

>>14686519

>ultima underworld

>good

Here, have something from before Spoony went full retard

>>14686564

56%!!!

>>14686588

If you gotta use LARPing to make an argument, you already lost.

LARPing has nothing to do with videogames, it's some guys making up rules on the fly. The faggot might say "I was using a magic shield!" and it's up to the other fags if it counts or not.

Videogames however have strict gameplay and if something wasn't done with it, it doesn't count.

For Morrowind in particular, there are stats and armor that affects your ability to dodge attacks and the same rules apply to your adversaries. This isn't an NPC coming up with bullshit to stop your attacks, it's using game mechanics to do it. You're the only LARPing faggot here that refuses to acknowledge the rules of the game.

Want a similar retarded example? This is like playing Monopoly with your friends but you take money from the bank whenever you want, ignoring the rules because "duh, it's right there, why can't I take those pieces of paper for me if they are within reach?"

>>14686631

>the virtual environment shows you something happening but tells you something else

>refusing to even recognize this as a problem

>>14686665

Right, I'm not gonna get angry since you've already proven several times you're trolling, but I did write >>14686437 stating precisely that there is indeed a problem.

However the solution ins't to make your hits actually connect but rather to make dodge have a proper feedback and build mechanics from there.

>>14686677

That's an extra animation, and depending on execution could look even sillier

On the other hand, a little bit of big boy thought and you might come up with a perfectly serviceable mechanic that's been used forever, glancing blows

But of course something sensible like that would be fucking heresy

Also, his example was perfectly applicable since the argument is about the game's reality not matching the player's perception, he wasn't saying morrowind was fucking larping and the game mechanics were a debate, stop being autistic

>>14686712

>That's an extra animation, and depending on execution could look even sillier

So was blocking, and it was implemented in later games. What's wrong with "tap button, dodge to direction"? Especially when it was indeed included in Oblivion with Acrobatics, albeit in a shitty manner?

>glancing blows

You're suggesting an idea just like an Ideas Guy, no detail or specifications.

What do you even mean? The game plays a different sound if it only glances? The game does a different swing animation? Floaty text shows up to tell you what happened?

You might as well say "dynamic high-range tactical feedback loop transiction" if you're just gonna spout concepts.

No, the LARPing example is him claiming that someone making up rules or mechanics on the fly to justify an outcome is wrong, which is correct but it's not what Morrowind does. On the contrary, what's happening is exactly the oposite.

The Bandit isn't telling you "nah, uh, you don't hit me because I dodge", he's using the game mechanics to dodge your attack but never tells you about it.

>>14686588

You went through a lot of effort to go around your ass to say you don't like dice rolls. The amount of points you put into a combat stat dictates how often the dice rolls in your favor. How is this so hard for people to understand. A lot of cRPGs do this shit. I never see people bitching about Fallout with this sort of thing, Christ.

Why do people get so autistic about Morrowind when it comes to the combat? Daggerfall and Arena were the same way, is it because most of these assholes come from Oblivion and Skyrim?

>>14686844

Fallout actually provides a great example. In the original isometric games, there actually were dodge animations, and there was no real-time footwork. Obviously, you weren't aiming yourself, so it was going to be up to the dice. (Also, people did bitch about it, for the same reason they bitch in XCOM)

In later games [toddposting intensifies], VATS had percentages, because you weren't aiming yourself. You'd get weird shit when shooting sometimes if you had a low gun skill, but that at least made sense as an RPG mechanic, just as KCD gives you a wobbly bow hand early on.

>>14686761

>What do you even mean?

Instead of outright missing which doesn't match what the game shows you, you just don't do any real damage

This is not a difficult fucking concept anon, goddamn, I said stop being autistic

>>14686865

It's way easier to forgive sprites than polygons for this shit. You know that what you're looking at doesn't have the properties of a physical object.

By the way, if you think this is bad, you ought to see the rage when fighting game hitboxes and character sprites don't match

>>14686865

People complain about the combat in the later games all the fucking time, it's just always a unanimous agreement so it's not a big deal

The earlier ones get let off the hook because the games are mostly 2D and abstract enough to mostly excuse it, the technology was primitive enough that better combat wasn't necessarily possible, and those games just don't have as many fans as morrowind does

>>14686870

>>14686909

But why does it matter if there aren't animation for dodges or misses? Why does it matter at all? The dice didn't roll in your favor the way it doesn't roll in your favor in Fallout, Daggerfall, Arena, Arcanum. It's just your Dexterity wasn't leveled enough in the way your Long Sword in Morrowind isn't. That people get this bad over something so trivial is insane.

>>14686865

>is it because most of these assholes come from Oblivion and Skyrim?

Bingo. That, and they expect it to just be another Dark Messiah or similar game.

>>14686870

Bad example. Fallout, the first few games, are turn based, you're not doing any action while dodging. In real time, the dodge animation would not work if you're already attacking.

An example of this borking out is Warframe if you install mods to auto-parry with melee weapons, potentially locking you from actually attacking with them, depending on how much you're shot at.

The later games actually had a heavier spread depending on your weapon skill, even when not using VATS. You could have your aim directly on top of someone and bullets would spread around instead when spraying. Some VATS shots actually looked really weird, the bullet making impossible angles as it came out of the gun.

>>14686879

Isn't that what you see right now? The weapon goes through but you don't do any damage, you just don't know why.

How would it be any better with "glancing blows" if you're still not giving any feedback to tells the player they were glancing blows? And going by this retarded logic, how is it a glancing blow if you see the sword going inside his torso? It may have glanced a few internal organs, but you still see it going in.

What about instead of dumb shit like this, you get a button to dodge in the direction you're moving, with a small cooldown where you're immobile. The better you are at dodging, the faster this plays out and the faster the cooldown passes. This would essentially be like Blocking, but while blocking has you take the hit for a small percentage of the damage, Dodge either means no damage or full damage depending on your timing.

Wouldn't something like this be actually simpler, feel better and allow for more gameplay mechanics, like making Light Armor more disntinct from Heavy Armor since it hampers your Dodge less?

>>14686994

>What about instead of dumb shit like this, you get a button to dodge

How does that affect you attacking enemies

You're solving a problem nobody's even talking about

>>14686958

It's a matter of feedback, Anon. You can have whatever gameplay mechanism you wish to determine how you hit something, but if you don't tell the player you actually hit, he has no idea if he is having any impact at all or if he should change tactics.

Consider the simple example that some weapons have different reach. If you're using a small dagger with little range, why did your attack miss? Is it because he dodged or because you're not close enough? The first option will require that you consider your stamina or immobilize him somehow while the second means you gotta move forward a bit more, but you don't know which you should do unless the game explicitily makes the distiction and tells you "You are in range, but he's too fast" or "you're not close enough".

>>14687005

You complete imbecile! Whatever mechanic you get to use, so does every NPC!

Instead of having enemies "dodging" things with no feedback, you actually see them side-step or step backwards in a fast motion.

Is it really that revolutionary an idea that your oponents have acess to the same moveset you can use?

>>14687018

>Is it really that revolutionary an idea that your oponents have acess to the same moveset you can use?

This is morrowind we're talking about, it's a wonder they can even walk towards you

>>14687018

>but if you don't tell the player you actually hit, he has no idea if he is having any impact at all or if he should change tactics.

Okay, and Mororwind tells the player that they missed by playing a specific "miss" sound and not showing blood which pops up every time you hit.

>>14687018

>It's a matter of feedback, Anon

I guess I just know how to suspend my disbelief.

>>14687144

You know that I know that you know you're shitposting

>>14687240

>>14687196

I should add that, the entire reason the "roll the dice for a hit" system existing is to 'fairly' simulate an enemy dodging your attack in a medium (tabletop games) where doing so isn't possible via 3 dimensional models actually moving. It doesn't make sense to port this system to a game when it is a compromise made for imaginary battles.

>>14687272

<I guess I just know how to suspend my disbelief.

It's not that people criticizing it don't know how to, it's that they shouldn't have to, I don't know what kind of retard you are to not understand that. No one is claiming that they can't play the game, or that they don't understand what's happening, just that it's a shitty way for them to have done it.

>>14687281

Learn to read IDs cuckchan.

>>14687286

I realized that the quote wasn't of you, I replied to you with it because it is a direct counter to your point as well. Your ADD riddled brain apparently skipped it so I highlighted it in bright red.

>>14687281

>it's that they shouldn't have to

>redtexting

That you are this autistic over something as goddamn trivial as fucking feedback when it has absolutely no bearing on the game at fucking all is pathetic. You faggots absolutely piss me off.

>>14687281

>>14687314

>it's just a shitty way for them to have done it

It was a way that was perfectly acceptable for the decade leading up to Morrowind's release. The only reason this is even debated is because faggots like you picked up Morrowind after playing Oblivion or Skyrim and were ass blasted that Morrowind is an actual RPG that requires a tiny bit of thought at character creation.

>>14687330

>I-IF YOU CRITICIZE ONE PORTION OF THE GAME THAT MUST MEAN YOU HATE IT!!!!

>I CAN'T ACTUALLY PROVIDE A COUNTER ARGUMENT TO WHAT YOU SAID….

>BUT I'M NOT GOING TO CONCEDE THIS ONE OBVIOUSLY CORRECT POINT AND INSTEAD I'LL CALL YOU AUTISTIC!!@!!!!

>>14687341

>The only reason this is even debated is because faggots like you picked up Morrowind after playing Oblivion or Skyrim and were ass blasted that Morrowind is an actual RPG that requires a tiny bit of thought at character creation.

I played Morrowind during it's first year after release. I wouldn't claim that either Oblivion or Skyrim are superior games. It has a flawed combat system, for the genre it placed itself in. It's an action RPG, and subsequent criticisms of it's 'action' are entirely valid. Clearly any criticisms towards the game are with modern foresight, but that isn't a bad thing towards objectively measuring it's effectiveness today.

>>14687380

People have already corrected you on there being feedback in the game. But it's not the kind of feedback you want, so you bitch and moan and complain about it and grasp at the smallest of straws. That you have the gall to call me names because your issue is with something utterly infinitesimal is really petty, and that it doesn't absolutely align with your exact peripheral is the very definition of autistic.

>>14687423

And you just fortgot to post the locked thread on Skyrim where the very same faggot praised the game. This is an obvious bait thread and mods didn't do jackshit!

>>14687434

I guess they're just too busy making the refugees feel welcome.

>>14687442

Atleast we can bully them with the undeniable truth: Skyrim isn't and never will be a fucking rpg! Even by any low standard.

>>14687488 (heil)

>for a special occasion.

Uhm.. for Mark's bar mitzvah?

>>14686160

No, not really.

>>14686067

>Muh dialogue

Irrelevant. You can have shitloads of dialogue or very little in an RPG, and it's still not small compared to morrowind.

You keep listing garbage that makes TES a shitty series of games, but it doesn't make them non RPGs.

>>14686521

I think he's forgotten that he was plebbit spacing earlier and trying to hide that.

>>14688258

>It is though. The design of combat from the ground up is horrible.

That's where the problem is here

Just making hits connect would make the combat worse, because it's so poorly designed that it relies on those shitty simplistic mechanics to feel like something is actually happening

The entire system needs to be reworked to be good, not just that one part

>>14689536

Nope! how dare you, Dicerolls are perfectly fine in a real time FPS RPG. It's an abstraction, minmax like me or get out, why don't you love woosh noises anyways?

>>14689546

>sees an RPG in first-person

>thinks it's an FPS

>it's the dev's fault for making it look like that

Did you just come back to confirm how completely retarded you are?