/v/ - Video Games

Notice how nobody says these games are good games, but mostly good stories? That's what I think about RTWP.

>>14599136

>real-time with pause

It's the worst of both worlds and especially in the cases you pictured, they rely on a turn system anyways, the "real time" aspect was just to sucker people in and give it a cool factor

That said, it doesn't completely ruin a game, but given the option between turn based and real time, I'll take turn based, especially for rpgs

All of those games ARE turn-based. The characters simply keep animating between and during turns. They're all based on the D&D system which is a turn-based system.

It's boring gameplay wise.

Even paper mario turn based is more fun than pause to win.

>>14599150

This isn't entirely true since, in turn based games, there is a turn order and characters make their move one at a time, whereas, in RTWP, you're taking timing into account.

>>14599172

not that paper mario is boring. It is simple yet very fun. Point is, turn based > crpg

If you're going to make it action based, then kingdom hearts, Tales of, or anything else really does it better. Even Action time bar is better than crpg. all those crpgs would be better off being turn based

>>14599177

Have you ever noticed that when you tell a character in Icewind Dale to cast a spell, they won't always start casting it immediately? That's because you've caught them "between" turns. They need to finish their turn before they can start casting.

There might be RTWP games, but none of the games in the OP are actually RTWP. They're simply turn-based games that hide their turn-based nature with turns that immediately run into one another and constant animations.

>>14599216

Yeah, that's true. I did forget that the system allows for instantaneous movement.

>>14599207

Semantics, aside, that doesn't take timing out of the picture.

>>14599148

Baldur's Gate II and Icewind Dale II are great even without the story. I have yet to play Planescape Torment.

>>14599207

That only happens after casing a previous spell. If you're just standing around the spell starts right away.

>>14599152

Pretty sure every single RPG is turn-based, some just hide the D&D engine by making it more instantaneous like with action RPG's so you don't notice it on the surface. The illusion you're playing in real-time is just that, an illusion, really though the computer is simply doing each turn in a fraction of a second, only possible because computers can make all those calculations quickly

I actually had fun with gameplay of BGs and Icewind Dale. A good turn based is better than those, but still they're not as bad as people claim them to be imo

My favourite RTWP is Chess, it's a true intellectual's game.

>>14599216

That's probably why the best strategy in those games is hurl spells at the enemy from afar.

>>14599136

Whoa shit is this the famous Beamdog(TM) quadrilogy?

Real time with a pause is a waste of time. Its like ATB, why even waste the player's time with stupid shit when you could just make it proper turn based.

>>14603893

oh and the worst part about these "real time" games is that there are enemies which no waiting time between their attacks or there is artificial waiting time added because the game pause the action when some big spell is going anyway.

Worst offender that comes to mind about this is FF12. Every single hunt enemy and mid to late game boss either has no wait times or has a critical condition where their defense gets buffed up and their wait time gets removed completely.

This means if you are playing on anything less than fast combat speed you are getting your ass fucked.

>>14599136

>RTwP

Good when dealing with unknown (i.e. UFO series), bad when you know everything, because at that point turns are just as good and you're complicating things for the sake of it. Like jury rigging turn based system to work in real time, except still with turns.

>>14599136

it's not a bad system, but the AI schemas that you have to set up in the Infinity Engine games and NWN are often lacking depth. For all of Beamdog's shit writing, the additional AIs they added to IWD (and I assume BG1/2) are pretty good. At the very least, your cleric will continue turning undead if you tell them to instead of pursuing an enemy as though they had ADHD.

More than that, however, in an attempt to make the mechanics mesh well with real time games, the hard rules of D&D and other tabletops have to be altered for balance. The end result is often something that is trying to be its source material and failing at it.

So for tabletop sims I would probably prefer full turnbased with as hard an implementation of the mechanics as you can possibly manage, random criticals and overpowered high level abilities and all.

Imagine a D&D video game where you can even take free actions like persuading an opponent midcombat; a true successor to the goldbox day

I'm working on one, but it's coming along slowly. I'll post something in /agdg/ when I feel there's something worth showing

>>14610403

How about ditched altogether? I did enjoy finding loopholes and breaking that glass ceiling but even the original system in it's natural environment - aka table is usually shit unless you've got someone capable of tweaking it running the game.

>>14599136

Having hexes don't make for a deep tactical gameplay any more than turn based and as far as I'm concerned a decent enough game can be forgiven trying something outside the box. Blitzkrieg, Darklands, Arcania, M&M, more slav games than you can squat on or even X:Apocalypse.

>>14610403

I'd recommend something less like Gold Box or Infinity, more like the d20 roguelike Incursion, myself.

>>14610426

>How about ditched altogether?

If you're talking about the abandonment of strict rules in favor of gameplay over simulation, it works quite well when you take it to the other extreme:

Neverwinter (MMO) and the Dark Alliance games abandoned hard implementation in favor of calculations that feel like D&D but without such strict crunch governing your actions, and both are fun to play while evoking their source material

>>14610430

haven't tried Incursion, but being a roguelike I imagine it encourages not merely carefully rationed items but clever use of them as well. I'll certainly take a look

>>14603890

tetrology

and they added Neverwinter Nights to their list so it's a quintology now

The problem with these games is that people save scum, lower the difficulty level, and constantly hit rest between every battle. Pause only ruins the games further. Unfortunately, it needs to be there for people who have difficulty planning ahead of time and making quick decisions. It is an accessibility feature for people who would be better off playing a turn-based game.

>>14610426

I agree that RPGs designed specifically for computers better exploit the capabilities of computers, and that the most popular tabletop systems (D&D, Storyteller, FFG 40k, etc.) tend to be mechanically broken, but autistically perfect computerizations of these legacy systems offer a certain unique charm, and hold a special place in the hearts of people like me.

>>14610474

That was more a side-effect of (similarly to bad DMs in the real tabletop game) failing to have patrolling/wandering monsters that discouraged resting in dungeons, leading to a degenerate play antipattern commonly termed the "5-minute workday" by DMs.

>>14610474

>save scumming

the biggest flaw to be sure, and I'm just as guilty as anyone

iron man modes in recent games help to mitigate this a bit but there's ultimjately no solid cure for a touch of scrubbery

>frequent resting

another big problem. It really doesn't help when there's minimal consequences for doing so

rations are a decent detterent as they implement a time limit of sorts that places a drain on money. The problem is when it gets implemented in a brutal and unbalanced fashion like in Ultima 2. Fallout also solved it with an actual time limit and ending outcomes that rely (in theory) on when you accomplish certain quests (but in FO1 are actually based on when you first arrived in the relevant town)

So invisible time limits that can make the game harder or impossible to get a good outcome can mitigate resting

>>14610514

except ToEE is a near perfect implementation of the rules. And it's turnbased, technically bending over backwards (as you put it) to enable implementation. Nothing is ditched or thrown out; if anything, it's the closest to a faithful implementation of 3e in vidya form we've gotten. The only thing really missing is grid-based movement.

>>14610578

>grid-based movement

>missing

Yiff in hell, 4ies not welcome. Seriously though, it was a shit RPG system, but a completely faithful D&D 4e computer skirmish game could actually be really cool.

>>14599136

>What are your thoughts on real-time with pause?

If the real time gameplay is so unmanageable you need to put emphasis on the fact the game features a pause function you know the gameplay is shit.

It's utter shit. You have no control of movement so 90% of tactics are out the window.

>>14610656

missing in terms of implementation of the ruleset, dumbass

and you're right about 4e. It was meh for roleplaying but actually a decent skirmish game, making it oddly ideal for a pure dungeon dive

>>14610578

There's a few issues like 3.0 weapon sizes (so devs didn't need to place weapons parties may never use) and the only option while prone being to stand up (making trip builds even more awesome), but it's pretty good.

>>14610578

Sure. But it was a shit game. Generic, shallow, unresponsive. Pretty boring too unless you're counting mods that introduced enemies and encounters that were actually challenging.

>>14610719

the former is a minor matter that many DMs tend to overlook as well. never even considered doing a trip build in ToEE. Must try

>>14610705

I was obliquely referring to the fact that grid-based movement being required in D&D is a common misconception, as it actually only specifies everything in terms of real-world units. It CAN be played with a grid, but that is strictly optional, to facilitate play without graph paper or minis for very simple quick skirmishes and such.

>>14610671

It's to allow things that are impossible in RT, like controlling multiple entities simultaneously, or digging through deep menu hierarchies full of spells/skills/commands/etc.

>>14610766

>It's to allow things that are impossible in RT

>like controlling multiple entities simultaneously, or digging through deep menu hierarchies full of spells/skills/commands/etc.

So why use RT if it's such a proof fit?

>>14610738

the point was that it is not an opposite extreme to faithfully implementing the rules as you seemed to suggest here >>14610514 (although on second reading you aren't actually addressing that point)

simultaneously you claim that Dark Alliance, which eschewed the ruleset and emulating tabletop gameplay almost entirely, is somehow a shit example of abandoning strict implementation

also, why would you now say ToEE's a shit game when previously you described its mechanics as working like a charm?

>>14610766

>re: gridbased etc etc

yeah, I know. But I suck at keeping track of everything in the so-called theater of the mind. And grids certainly help when it comes to AOO and 5-foot steps

>>14610779

Because TB also has inherent weaknesses due to its mechanical differences from reality, that necessitate imperfect workarounds like I said >>14610334 here. RTwP provides a nearly ideal compromise, with the closest TB solution being "WEGO" systems like Frozen Synapse that share RTwP's reliance on AI.

Also, RTwP is commonly used as an adjunct to RT in many, like in Deus Ex, where it allows you a realistic experience of being able to reflexively toggle augs and shuffle through your inventory.

>>14610818

Yeah; how about you eschew some of that cheap ass semantics? I didn't mince my words: hammering a system that's not indented for a medium or concretely a tabletop ruleset into vidya more often than not causes said vidya to suffer. I also didn't mention Dark Alliance at all and for a good reason. Mostly because I consider it as much if not more garbage than NWN: the MMO clusterfuck

>>14610851

>RTwP provides a nearly ideal compromise

Yet every single implementation is inferior to its TB counterpart.

>like in Deus Ex

DX is an FPS you cretin.

>>14610890

DX allows you to tinker in menus while the game is paused. This is as compared to most games that completely lock the player off from mechanical interaction with the game while it's paused, or games (like Diablo) that leave the game running in the background while you fumble with menus.

The little-known multiplayer from DX1 is actually a specimen of the latter type, as it leave the game running even when you're in the menus.

>>14610910

That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. In DX you control a single character and the way you turn your augs on and off is not handed particularly well. At best you'll activate them before you initiate an engagement, at worst you'll take cover and then select what you need.

The game would have been much better if it had allowed you to put augs in the item bar or gave you a wheel ala Crysis. As it stands most people can agree that DX is not the most fluid game in existence.

>>14610766

>It's to allow things that are impossible in RT, like controlling multiple entities simultaneously, or digging through deep menu hierarchies full of spells/skills/commands/etc.

It doesn't need to exist. There are plenty of items, spells, and abilities that can be used to react quickly to threats and provide the player with time to plan. I would agree that it is primarily included so the player can fumble through the horrible UI. Perhaps the UI should be better designed for realtime gameplay. Then the player wouldn't need unlimited timestop.

>>14611025

No amount of UI design can compensate for the fact that controlling an entire party of characters, each with dozens or hundreds of commands to choose from, can't be done by one player with nothing but a couple of hands.

Your choices are to use RTwP, make the game more granular with TB, or dumb it down for RT, that's it.

not a big fan of spending 70% of my game time waiting my turn instead of actually doing shit, so I like rtwp

>>14610702

wot? you can move whenever the fuck you want. what is this retard talking about?

>>14611078

Probably the fact that RTwP games are usually coordinate based, and TB games are usually on a coarser square or hex tile grid. Also the necessity for AI to interpolate slightly between player commands in RTwP, so they can sometimes fuck up a little, particularly pathfinding.

>>14611056

There can be scripted buttons and triggers. Higher resolutions and larger screens provide plenty of space for button slots. Character-specific action bars can also be utilized. This is only possible on PCs or devices with a touchscreen. A game meant to be played on consoles would need to be dumbed down.

>>14611256

I still disagree with the rest of your post, since none of that is enough to compensate for the sheer surrealistic complexity of actions each of your characters is supposed to do on a whim, but which requires you the player to scramble as hard as possible to keep all their action queues full like playing a pipe organ. However:

>scripted buttons and triggers.

Man, I wish such "contingency" features were used more, especially in RTSs. Even something as simple as "if an enemy steps here, move to these positions", or "on my mark, move to these positions facing in these directions", or even just the ability to specify multiple waypoints for unit movement to ameliorate sucky pathfinding.

TBH the only time you don't want to do it in turn-based is if you're strong enough to stomp on the enemy with regular attacks, or you want an extra level of challenge.

Sort of like the old Might & Magic games. Most of the time you want to do turn-based, but there's nothing stopping you hammering the attack and spell buttons at the right time (and if you're quick enough you might get in more actions than you would in turn based combat)- or just hold down the shoot button if all your characters have bow and run around in circles.

>>14611316

Short of an AI playing the DM I don't see that happening anytime soon. I mean, if you had experience with a campaign going completely off the rails because one of the fags decided to go chasing after some random and completely irrelevant NPC you know what I'm talking about. Japs and classic crpgs usually go for heavy rails and (usually) deliver certain narrative and pace that makes sense. On the other hand most open world shit just throws speedbumps your way to cover the lack of content or plain shit to do that muh open world suffers from. That's still not related to good TB combat being easier to pull off

>>14611347

>niggersprech

>>14610474

In NWN HotU they finally put a limit on resting, and you can't do it near offscreen enemies or in open rooms. When I play the other games, I try not to abuse rest. It's just not fun.

>>14611375

Both the original NWN and BG had that limitation

>>14611434

Usually it was just out of the visual range. NWN I had to back off really far.

>>14599136

I think it's more likely to fuck with people if you do RTwP in what was originally a turn-based ruleset (ie. D&D) than if you were making a new ruleset, like Dragon Age did. To me the main questions are ease of use and AI when it comes to party management. I think party-based real-time RPGs without pausing are frequently designed for having your party members automatically take care of everything and tend to result in joke design. DAI had this issue, where the pause wasn't really meant to be used to micromanage your party (and the interface was clearly not playtested for it).

>>14623336

>gradual decay that happened starting with KotOR

The slippery slope actually started the second they went with RTwP. Meeting actionfags half-way was a mistake.

>>14623377

In KotOR's case of being dumbed down, aside from the camera being locked to party members rather than free-floating, it's not specific mechanical flaws with combat, but broader problems with the game's design (party size slashed down to 3, shared infinite inventory, insanely linear maps).

>>14623402

>it's not specific mechanical flaws with combat

I think the fact that you can't tell a character where to go and instead have to manually walk them there hurts things. Don't get me wrong though, the changes you mention are a big part of it.

>>14623336

It's amazing pretentious pc niggers will pretend bioware was ever good.