fee437 No.14072383
What games are there that require true tactics and thought when it comes to fighting?
I'm not talking anything like Dark Souls, where you need good timing and placement, or RTS/RTT games like Dawn of War 1 and 2.
I mean games that require actual tactics, where you won't win in combat unless you exploit things like the terrain, use items you can acquire, and try to deprive the enemy of every advantage they have.
For example, I just went through the mining outpost level in Age of Decadence. First time through, I managed to kill the front guards but then I lost to the ones inside the mine. Second time around, I moved into cover rather than blindly rushing into melee and managed to avoid taking any damage from the guards at the front, and then I lured the ones into the mine into range of my crossbow before running away and getting them into a chokepoint where it was easy to take them down. What other games do this sorta stuff? The only other game that comes to mind is OpenXcom.
cc9c69 No.14072393
8f809d No.14072397
>where you won't win in combat unless you exploit things like the terrain, use items you can acquire, and try to deprive the enemy of every advantage they have.
>I moved into cover rather than blindly rushing into melee and managed to avoid taking any damage from the guards at the front, and then I lured the ones into the mine into range of my crossbow before running away and getting them into a chokepoint where it was easy to take them down
dark souls series and bloodborne, but bloodborne is more punishing about it
a81d5b No.14072421
Dark Messiah Might and Magic on hardcore mode is what you want to play. It's a dollar fifty on steam right now. Or, alternatively, if you want something multiplayer give Rising Storm 2 a go, you will die lots, and being on a team where tactical decisions are being made is often the difference between winning or losing.
fee437 No.14072438
>>14072393
Aye thanks, I've been meaning to check that one out but I forgot about it for the longest time.
>>14072421
Dark Messiah is great, I've had issues with it crashing but tripping people and then stabbing them to death makes it 100% worth it. Never tried rising storm though, I'm not a fan of multiplayer games due to poorfag net.
3e2f7b No.14072457
>>14072383
>Actual tactics
wot. I don't think you know what that means
To answer your question with your definition.
>Arena FPS
>4X games
>Total War games
a81d5b No.14072493
>>14072438
alright, you should give jedi outcast II and jedi academy a go, the saber combat has a very high skill ceiling.
dca3dc No.14072495
>>14072383
Dungeon Rats is a party-based dungeon-crawler version of AoD.
This isn't as much of a combat game as a kind of tactics/puzzler but Commandos 1 & 2 are also very good tactics games where you have to carefully maneuver all your guys through enemy lines to achieve your objectives without getting killed. Commandos 3 is kinda meh though.
fee437 No.14072501
>>14072457
>Arena FPS
Not what I'm referring to. It's a bit too fast paced and it's more based on reflex and map knowledge than 'tactics' in the examples I used.
>4X Games
Large scale, they're less about clever tactics and on the spot ideas and more about overarching strategies. Fun but not what I'm talking about.
>Total War Games
>Tactics
>Imblying
a069aa No.14072550
Silent Storm's combat is a more polished version of JA2's, though it lacks the latter's strategic and open world aspect (but that can be seen as a good thing if you just want to advance from one scenario to another without having to worry about training militia and settlement loyalty). S2 definitely has much better close quarters combat thanks to fully destructible environments and full 3D aiming (you can aim directly below or above you). The level design is also much more intricate and varied than in JA2. With JA2, you always only have two elevations (ground and rooftop) but with S2, you not only have buildings with several floors but also actual variations in terrain elevation.
c5a229 No.14072654
>>14072383
I've been playing some sudden strike 4 recently, some of the levels in the campaign like the kursk one required a fair amount of tactics albeit very slow.
Levels are heavily scripted and the cover mechanics are fairly basic but I found the campaign quite enjoyable.
You really have to preserve your units, infantry in particular to capture enemy emplacements and maintain good sight lines for your armour otherwise you would be punished heavily by the massive Russian counterattack at the end.
You start with a lot of units but your resources are finite and limited(fuel/ammo from supply trucks and call ins/reinforcements).
It is really hard to micromanage all your units in the heat of battle so you'd have to position your units appropriately and take advantage of cover and recon before advancing otherwise you will be punished hard when tackling later objectives.
Cover is mostly infantry hiding in dense vegetation, garrisoning buildings, and crawling whilst set to return fire in order to spot targets of opportunity.
If you advance carefully and catch the enemy from behind enmasse you can save yourself a lot of hassle by having them surrender altogether. Sometimes infantry you miss rush to cover in buildings or come back to ambush you in an earlier spot later(scripted of course).
The one thing I really find irritating is the way vision is handled, it is very crude just a static circle that larger if the unit is stationary. It is not dynamic in a sense that obstacles could block your unit's sight.
Aside from emplacements and buildings infantry don't have the ability to take cover behind objects like men of war and company of heroes.
Shadow tactics is another one I've been enjoying, seems like a spiritual successor of the commandos games except set in edo era Japan.
7c7366 No.14072671
I liked this one. Shame the swing meter undermines so much of it though. But if you disable it, you get deprived of the reliability of a lot of status-only moves.
7c7366 No.14072676
Battle for Wesnoth is kinda tacticool.
bfdfbc No.14072714
>>14072383
You should play Company of Heroes. Dawn of War 2 is very heavily inspired by it. CoH2 is good too, but has generals you need to pay for which is retarded and gay.
>>14072457
>he doesn't know the difference between strategic and tactical
lel
cc9c69 No.14072726
Theres also Rebelstar Tactical Command and Ghost Recon Shadow War
859b3e No.14072740
Frozen Cortex and Frozen Synapse are both pretty fun games, if you like how it is. I think they're far too easy, though.
3e2f7b No.14072942
>>14072501
I was using your definition.
As or the complaint that Arena FPS are too fast. That doesn't fly if we try to stick with a real definition of tactics (which is also fluid depending on field, but I'll assume you're talking about military). Combat is fast. Real military tactics are honestly incredibly simple and mostly boil down to quick decisions about terrain made without panicking or fucking about.
>>14072714
>he thinks that they can be clearly defined into two categories
3e2f7b No.14072966
>>14072501
To answer your question while being less of a jackass than I was above. A lot of games can give you the feel of real tactics on your first play through, especially if they have good AI and level design. The difficulty in answering your question is in regards to repeat playthroughs. For tactical thinking to be relevant in repeat playthroughs you need these 3 categories to be filled:
>Multiplayer/incredibly compelling AI)
>Procedural generation/maps so large and complicated that you couldn't memorise them to an effective standard/excellent level design that promotes multiple options while also encouraging contest over a single/multiple areas.
>LIMITED resources to spread and allocate (this can be multiple units to control in an RTS style game or a cohesive team).
Off the top of my head games which can fulfil that criteria are:
>ARMA series (but only if you can find a large and dedicated group of autists that are happy with taking orders)
>CoH Series
>Wargame Series
>Some team based FPS at a competitive level (TF2 comes to mind for the map design and division of limited assets)
>Old R6 games (I can't comment on the newer ones)
>>14072957
That's a good definition for games, but it falters under scrutiny for military/real world applications.
3e2f7b No.14072967
>>14072957
All great examples
302c96 No.14072972
Xenonauts X-Division mod might give you something.
Or Wargame Red Dragon if you are autistic enough to build decks and then play with those.
ab1c08 No.14072974
>>14072383
Tactics games like Jagged Alliance and Silent Storm, definitely.
cc9c69 No.14072975
>>14072966
>but it falters under scrutiny for military/real world applications.
Nobody gives a shit
3c5f52 No.14072978
Daggerfall took quite a bit of pre-planning, especially since you couldn't pause combat mid-fight, you had to be at the ready or you'd get fucked up.
38a6dd No.14072987
>>14072671
Hey! You like Gladius too! GOOD, now I can finally say to someone on /v/ that the swing meter IS GREAT.
c3e744 No.14072992
Both the Commandos series, as another anon pointed out, and the Men Of War series are basically the pinnacle of tactical games, in-so-far as I am aware. Commandos deals with maneuvering around a small unit of elite troops to get the job done behind the enemy lines whilst Men Of War focuses more on brigade / division level tactics on a small portion of a front.
18aaf2 No.14073013
>>14072383
>I mean games that require actual tactics, where you won't win in combat unless you exploit things like the terrain, use items you can acquire, and try to deprive the enemy of every advantage they have.
It meets your criteria tbh
b25ac1 No.14073018
>>14072966
But this is the video games board.
515c91 No.14073022
>>14072383
Silent storm on the harder difficulties means you've gotta plan ahead or lose some valuable party members.
b6c840 No.14073041
>>14072501
>Not what I'm referring to. It's a bit too fast paced and it's more based on reflex and map knowledge than 'tactics' in the examples I used.
You do exactly that in arena FPS.
>>14072383
>I mean games that require actual tactics, where you won't win in combat unless you exploit things like the terrain,
trickjumps, narrow areas (ricocheting weapons), connected corridors (predictive rocket shots), etc
>use items you can acquire
starting out with nothing and having to find weapons on the map,
>and try to deprive the enemy of every advantage they have.
for example, the self-damage trick to pick up certain armors that normally can't be picked up if you have a certain armor threshhold, noticing an enemy's preferred weapon and denying it, etc
Fast pace, reflex, and map knowledge is another part in the mix.
fee437 No.14073049
>>14073041
Sorry anon, but I don't care for Arena FPS games.
>>14072992
Commandos looks interesting, I'll give it a try, thank you anon.
>>14072972
>Mod is over 6GB
This is either going to be great or it's going to be horrible.
>>14072714
Dawn of War 2 was fun, but it's not the kind of game I'm looking for. There's too much running around the map in circles and not enough tactics, but I guess that's the AI's fault. The campaign is fucking great though
da668e No.14073532
>>14072383
>i want to use the terrain
>positioning in dark souls doesnt count
i appreciate your lust for tactical exploitation but positioning is probably something those games have going for them, and what i would say is the bread and butter of all tactics.
try a little rts game called infested planet, its an rts-lite game where you control less than a dozen dudes tops. much of the game comes down to your understanding of your arsenal and shifting things around to stretch your resources out as far as theyll go.
as an example you might not want to take a nearby control point because the bad guys spawning from it have to go through a narrow chokepoint that just gets ripped apart by one boyz with a shotgun. this wastes the enemies resources and might give you an opportunity to attack another point that would otherwise be impossible to cut in to.
d6b3b6 No.14073631
6fcbd8 No.14073636
Age of Decadence is pretty similar to what you've described. Excellent game.
560655 No.14073637
>>14072493
Jedi academy is shit and you should feel bad for it.
cc9c69 No.14073643
>>14073636
great reading comprehension m8
7aa669 No.14073653
>>14072493
>jedi academy
>very high skill ceiling
Lol
3c5f52 No.14074526
>>14073653
I can't but agree with him. A guy who's been playing for weeks and should have some considerable experience still can't put a dent into the health of a player who has mastered the game. Saber dueling is pretty intense, especially when someone becomes so good they can instantly kill their opponent without fail.
683301 No.14074536
>>14072383
The Last Remenant
0bb452 No.14076010
>>14072393
JA2 is garbage. Guns are ridiculously inaccurate just for the sake of "lol I deem this gun shit so here's shit stats k bye".
0bb452 No.14076018
>>14073653
>i'm shit so that must mean there's no skill involved
6d146a No.14076056
>>14074536
This guy knows his shit.
OP, this game might seem like your average JRPG at first, but my mind was blown wide open when the game demanded that I utilize positioning, preparation, and controlled progression to beat the harder fights. You'll need to use a wide variety of tactical formations, items, and magic while making sure each squad of yours synergizes with itself and other squads.
If it sounds autistic and obtuse, that's because it is.
dca3dc No.14076302
>>14072383
Full Spectrum Warrior.
If you like squad-based tactics games, you'll like this one. The US Army commissioned this game to teach soldiers how to outmaneuver enemies. The developers sold this game to the public though, with a cheat code to unlock the US Army's specific regimen.
6fcbd8 No.14076422
You should try Age of Decadence.
0bb452 No.14076448
>>14076422
Terrible game. Play UnderRail instead. It's an actually good iso RPG.
6fcbd8 No.14076468
>>14076448
The fuck is Undertale? Age of Decadence is good, though unforgiving to casual players. Maybe that's why you didn't like it.
5b57a8 No.14076530
>>14076302
It was developed as a training tool for the US military, but then the developers used it as a base to make a commercial game out of it (and a sequel). Pretty fun game, especially if you want to learn about squad tactics.
Also, a few more good ones are Panzer Corps, Door Kickers, Graviteam Tactics, Swat 3 and 4, 7.62 with the Hard Life mod.
0bb452 No.14076631
>>14076468
>undertale
UnderRail*
It's an actually good game, unlike AoD with it's weak as fuck writing and half-baked gameplay.
>though unforgiving to casual players. Maybe that's why you didn't like it.
AoD wasn't hard. UnderRail has much more challenge that AoD.
5b57a8 No.14076722
>>14076631
They're both good games. Now stop trying to shit the thread up.
6fcbd8 No.14076744
OP would be making a mistake if he didn't play Age of Decadence.
d883c5 No.14076908
>>14076056
Despite being an autist, I can't deal with the autistic shit in gaming.
fee437 No.14078399
Well, I finally tried Jagged Alliance 2, and it's good.
I'm floundering about and barely able to figure it after properly applying all the fixes, but it's good so far. Are there other actions my little dudes can take aside from run, crouch, crawl, shoot, aim and shoot, and so on? I'm not really getting on with the controls that well.
8ca8d8 No.14078510
>>14078399
They can sneak, strafe, turn in place, aim better in exchange for more AP, burst fire, climb up walls and rooftops, that's about it I think.
42c6c4 No.14078552
>>14078399
Walls are destructible if you have explosives, you can use clippers to cut through wired fences, doors can be pried open with crowbars and so on.
481443 No.14078984
graviteam tactics: operation star and mius front
its got lots of tactical stuff in it, but its more like a battalion level sim
d6b3b6 No.14079052
Eador Genesis and Eador Masters of the Broken World.
16d694 No.14079075
5683f0 No.14079144
>>14072676
RNG hell is not tacticool, anon.
eeb9e0 No.14079151
>>14078399
>>14078510
Throw grenades or knives. Throw anything really. Punch tigers to death, and stuff
0bb452 No.14079414
>>14076722
No theyr'e not.
fd6e63 No.14079445
Silent Storm.
It's not very hard, but it sure is fun.
>have a shootout in a factory
>one of my rounds hits some explosive shit way at the back near staircase I am supposed to take to get to the other floors
>explosion destroys everything
>can't get to the main offices any more and firing rockets into the wall on the side of the top floor that I can reach is risky because there is a chance I might blow the floor away and make things even worse
>see a maintenance shaft in a corner of the map
>no way to get to it from the bottom floor, but it leads all the way to the top
>blow a hole in the wall and go up
>get my target and get the fuck out
I was needlessly worrying I'd have to restart.
62ba89 No.14079491
>>14072383
The Strike series (Desert, Jungle, Urban, Soviet & Nuclear Strike).
f6a43b No.14080104
>>14079445
If you want hard you can always play Hammer and Sickle, the sequel no one knows about. It's not as good as its predecessors, but it might satisfy that itch.
af34ab No.14080144
>>14072493
>jedi academy a go, the saber combat has a very high skill ceiling.
I like jedi academy lightsaber combat but i am not gona pretend it has high skill ceiling lmao, i even remember the early days when multiplayer was filled with nothing but dual wielders because you could easily pull off that sidewalk on walls and instakill someone while avoiding damage
98ca61 No.14080155
>>14079445
>female soldiers
It's trash.
fd6e63 No.14080937
>>14080104
I read as much on kikepedia when looking into SS.
I'll definitely give it a shot later when I'm done with the Sentinels.
>>14080155
The ability to choose what you want exists for a reason, m8.
946c7a No.14080970
>>14072421
>Dark Messiah Might and Magic on hardcore mode
>tactics
Literally just gitting gud at blocking and power attacking. Or using a staff. No tactics necessary in either case.
d46400 No.14081726
>>14072383
People always write this game off with lol nice ui but gameplay wise it is the best srpg I've played. This is not your standard srpg where you play weapon type rock-paper-scissor and call it a day. You can't turtle out maps either because there's neutral basetiles to be contested. If the enemy gets too much of those they will start comboing your ass from across the map. This is a game that rewards good play with rare items where as having to retry a map gets you jack shit. If only people had more patience, you get completely used to the UI after a few hours.
d43d56 No.14082890
>>14072942
>>he thinks that they can be clearly defined into two categories
Within a military context, tactics refers to low-level planning, operations refers to mid-level planning, and strategy refers to high-level planning. In other words, strategical planning involves laying out goals for your nation/army, operational planning is setting objectives that will make you achieve those goals, and tactical planning details the way in which you will tackle those objectives. To put your examples against these definitions: arena FPS would be tactics, Total War would be operations, and 4X would be strategy.
8ca8d8 No.14083395
>>14080937
I couldn't stand Sentinels. You have to grind random encounters before you can even afford to assemble a team. The whole idea of making money by selling loot is tedious and leads to idiotic bullshit like purposely going into a battle underequipped just so you have more inventory space to loot shit you can sell.
f6a43b No.14083448
>>14083395
The game is best when you do everything solo. No micromanagement. No worrying about money beyond the first mission or two. The only problem is when panzerkleins show up and there's only so much bazooka ammunition you can carry in with you.
2897c9 No.14083461
>>14072978
why does that woman have a giant dong
7533bf No.14083469
Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon
ead832 No.14083702
>>14072421
>buying Dark Messiah
>buying Dark messiah through steam
Why would you do this?
e7367e No.14083812
12a3fb No.14090881
8315e2 No.14090918
9441c3 No.14090940
deb2d5 No.14090942
>>14083702
there were probably several better ways they could have done that.
cbf480 No.14090974
>>14080177
whenever im on the tactics screen its incredibly laggy for me. is there some config to fix that?
d46400 No.14096211
>>14076056
>>14074536
I started playing it because of you 2. The whole deadlock/flanking mechanic is quite fun. Unions seem quite straightforward so far. Either stack attackers or casters, mixing seems shit to me I'd get less value out of my specific arts like that.
eeb6d7 No.14096234
Final Fantasy Tactics 1.3
You need to take advantage of everything in the game to be able to beat even the simple sotryline battles.
I guess some other Turn Based Strategy games could apply as well but i haven't played many
cb7d9a No.14096431
>>14081726
>standard srpg where you play weapon type rock-paper-scissor
Isn't that exactly how the spear/axe/sword system works in that game though?
dec979 No.14108895
>>14072978
Can I stab her in the dong?