[–]▶ No.942444>>942448 >>942452 >>942464 >>942484 >>942487 >>942838 >>943663 [Watch Thread][Show All Posts]
Anyone here using Dvorak instead of QWERTY? I'm considering switching because I've heard it helps with pain related to carpal tunnel. Wondering if that's just a meme or if it's just marketing. Did your WPM go up after adjusting to the new layout? How easy is it to go back and forths between QWERTY and other layouts once you learn them?
The only reason I didn't attempt making the switch years ago was constantly using multiple machines that I didn't have full control over. Now I'm old and my wrists have totally gone to hell. I get pain and numbness after a few minutes of constant typing which is starting to slow me down and causing me a lot of concern. I'm actually having to manage the pain with opioids now to get through my daily work loads.
▶ No.942448>>942452 >>942532 >>942677 >>942678
>>942444 (OP) (checked)
Yes I used Dvorak. It's not marketing, as there's not exactly any profit made just by switching a keyboard layout. I typed very quickly with QWERTY and didn't notice a WPM drop (or increase) with Dvorak, only that I move my hands a lot less. I've heard that some people can go back and forth, but that'd take a lot of practise, somehow I managed to forget QWERTY in a week of Dvorak, after many, many years.
▶ No.942452>>942481 >>942506
>>942444 (OP)
Carpal tunnel doesn't exist. Maybe you have arthritis. or...
>i have to use opiods
just lol
>>942448
>only that I move my hands a lot less
Yeah pretty much this is the benefit.
▶ No.942464
>>942444 (OP)
It literally cures cancer due to quantum velocidensity of your hand movements.
▶ No.942466>>942532
I switched a couple years ago, and it's not a meme. You'll have like a week of discomfort while you adjust but after that is pure joy and comfort. You'll also become a better typist as you're forced to learn touch typing.
▶ No.942481>>942526
>>942452
>Carpal tunnel doesn't exist.
Are you functionally retarded?
>...
>lol
That answers that.
▶ No.942484>>942502 >>942532
>>942444 (OP)
I'm not sure about dvorak but there's serious gains to be made from using a steno keyboard. If you can stomach the cost and learning curve.
▶ No.942487>>942532
>>942444 (OP)
Dvorak isn't going to magically fix your issues. While it may make you type faster, it'll bring a lot of disadvantages when it comes to dealing with other people's PCs
▶ No.942502>>942645
>>942484
I think that one can be built with a knockoff arduino mega and some switches
Original project do not steal
▶ No.942506>>942526
>>942452
I remember being retarded like you are when it came to carpal tunnel. Enjoy the numbness and pain faggot because it's coming.
>opioids lol
Lets see how you feel about them in a decade. I hope the doctor refuses them and you're forced to live in pain for years.
▶ No.942526
>>942481
>>942506
>enjoy the vague symptoms with no known cause just like every other syndrome effecting middle age women
B-but at least I get to become a drug addict and have pointless surgery right?
▶ No.942527>>942532 >>942536 >>942539 >>942668 >>942763
I use programmer DVORAK, it took me about a month to get used to. Switched when I got carpal tunnel and it's really helped.
Stop using opiods for your carpal tunnel you retard, you're still getting nerve damage, start working out your triceps, get yourself some wrist splints and stop using your computer so much for a while (watch some movies and TV shows instead of coding/shitposting) before you lose all use of your hands add to that the fact that you've probably already developed an addiction and are going to have to deal with withdrawal.
▶ No.942532>>942538 >>942543 >>942616
>>942527
Thanks for the concern but I was dependant on opioids before using them for carpal tunnel for other injuries. I don't use them everyday just when I really start hurting and need them to get through the end of my day. I'm old so it's just part of life for me now. I don't like the pharmajew but until the laws change I can't grow my own opium. I never take enough of them to catch a buzz. I've done hardcore opioids before and I don't care for the nod or the addiction problems they bring.
What's the difference between programmer and regular DVORAK?
>>942487
Yeah that was my main concern about using it but if it helps my pain I'm willing to deal with that. I don't really touch other people's machines much anymore. Maybe a few times a year. I stopped doing tech support for people outside of the family a long time ago.
>>942484
Shill steno too me anon, what do you like about it?
>>942466
I'm already a touch typer but I'm self learned so it's non-standard. I type faster than anyone I've ever met honestly. I get odd looks when I type in public because I can go so fast. Do you think it'll be of any benefit for someone like me as far as speed is concerned?
>>942448
When you forgot QWERTY was it easy to pick it back up when using one? Did it take a week to get gud at it again?
▶ No.942536>>942545
>>942527
> start working out your triceps, get yourself some wrist splints
Sorry for the double post I forgot to reply to this part. What exercises are good to do without straining my wrists? I've been doing more for myself in the last few years because I neglected my body so much in the past so I'm happy to add things to my routine if they aren't doing any damage to me. I've never used the wrist splints before. Are the ones at wal-mart good enough or am I'm going to have to go to the kike doctor and get a prescription for good ones?
I've been suffering pain/numbness from carpal tunnel for over 20 years now but it has gotten really bad in the last few years. I'm afraid most of the damage has already been done. I'm never going to get the surgery if I can help it because I've seen it mess up people.
Mine isn't caused by just typing. I use a lot of hand and power tools for my various hobbies and upkeep of my property and I'm sure that did just as much damage as the typing did. It's hard just to quit doing all those things because I'm taking care of my Grandmother, Father, brother, and two Uncles right now. I'm pretty much the only one doing any sort of house and yard work. My brother is a lazy faggot that doesn't help me. He sits on his ass and watches twitch 24/7 when he's not wageslaving.
▶ No.942538>>942540
>>942532
How old are you anon?
▶ No.942539
>>942527
Oh and get yourself wrist supports
▶ No.942540
>>942538
I'm 32. It's really closer to 18 years that I've had symptoms. I started having pain in my knees/wrists around age 12-13. I had a rough childhood of hard labor growing up on a farm although most of my problems were mostly caused by
>spending too much time on my computer
>spending too much time riding my 4 wheeler and bikes
I rode motocross and enduro from age 3 to 19. I only stopped because I suffered so many concussions and broken bones. I only wrecked a handful of times but they were all high speed crashes on narrow trails in the woods. I bent the rear axle out of my 4 wheeler when I clipped at tree going 50mph and cracked open my skull and another time I put the 4 wheeler way up in a tree when I took a corner on a steep hill in the wrong gear. My Dad still talks about the last one. The wrecks caused me problems but my knees and wrists are mainly trashed from all the abuse of just riding at speed so often. My Dad was basically Bunta IRL and trained me well.
▶ No.942543
>>942532
Programmer DVORAK makes it so the most common symbols in programming are closer and the top row is symbols instead of numbers unless you use shift or caps lock and the numbers are split with odd numbers on the left hand side of the keyboard and even numbers on the right hand side.
It comes with Ubuntu under US keyboards.
▶ No.942545>>942668
▶ No.942555>>942668
I've used Capewell-Dvorak layout for awhile and it's pretty comfy once you get used to it. It's a variant that keeps the ZXVC keys in the same spot.
To deal with pain from carpal tunnel just get a pair of baoding balls of the proper size for your hand and learn how to use them. Get some that don't have those annoying chimes inside and keep them within arms reach on your desk. It's an unbelievably simple ancient Chinese medical trick that works miracles.
▶ No.942562
I use Programmer Dvorak with backspace and caps lock swapped; having backspace on the home row is incredibly useful. Shiftless access to all the symbols is also great. But, you'll honestly never (willingly) type QWERTY again after you switch to Dvorak, and it's very uncommon for someone who learns Dvorak to keep their adroitness for QWERTY. My WPM only increased by 10%, but I can type for much longer without strain.
▶ No.942582>>942585 >>942668
Use the Workman layout.
workmanlayout.org
▶ No.942585
>>942582
Two backspace keys makes no sense to me. Just put escape where backspace should be, and keep backspace on the home row.
▶ No.942588>>942593 >>942600 >>942605
It seems I'm a total faggot that's been hanging on to QWERTY for all these years for no good reason. Honestly surprised so many of you have already made the switch. Guess I'm in good company.
What specific models of keyboards are you guys using? Shill me some companies that make /comfy/ mechanical DVORAKS. Thanks again for all the advice.
▶ No.942593
>>942588
I don't really like any of the popular switches -- that is to say, Cherry, Topre, and Buckling Spring switches. Topre requires an immediate use of the full bottoming out force, which isn't comfortable. Cherry switches feel like there's sand in the slider. Call me dainty fingered, but Buckling Springs send far too much shock to my fingers; and Model M keyboards have design flaws. My favorite switches to type on are Hall Effect; but I settle for Yellow/Green Alps. Linear switches are really easy on your finger joints -- and they generally have a low actuation force; so I type much faster. I dislike any kind of aural/tactile feedback -- it used to not bother me, but after using linear switches for so long, it _really_ starts to hurt my hands and slow me down. Buy a Zenith ZKB-2.
▶ No.942600>>942606
>>942588
Literally just use your existing keyboard. If you're looking at your keys while typing, there's no point in using Dvorak or even typing, for that matter.
▶ No.942605
>>942588
Wasd keyboards makes custom mechanical keyboards, I just bought a hardwired Dvorak one from there.
▶ No.942606>>942681
>>942600
Retards always think they need to go out and buy a whole new keyboard with different key caps and everything. 90% of them won't even switch anyways.
▶ No.942616
>>942532
>When you forgot QWERTY was it easy to pick it back up when using one? Did it take a week to get gud at it again?
I just never use Qwerty anymore. On the rare occasion that I use someone else's machine, I change the layout, or shell in remotely.
▶ No.942617>>942623 >>945193
Nope, I need HJKL to be where they are.
▶ No.942623>>942639 >>942645 >>942668 >>942796 >>945193 >>945195 >>945219
>>942617
Vim is a terrible hack. It's a gigantic monster that implements its own (terrible) scripting language; and the defaults suck so people use the broken plug-in system. It has more legacy code than OpenSSL, is designed for QWERTY, and is used by ricer faggots who love to extol superficial minimalism (because if it has a TUI, it must be minimal, right?) -- Vim is thousands and thousands lines of C with API bindings for every other programming language. Vim is hard to extend and improve as itself, so users resort to limited hacks with its language bindings. Vim is the definition of crappy software. A bunch of amateurs on github are trying to clean it up, but it is a monolithic hack by design. The so-called "superiority" of model editing is also patently false, because:
a) It is designed around the worst keyboard layout
b) If you're really in love with modal editing, you can emulate it using Emacs.
The editor part of Emacs is temacs - which is just a few hundred lines of C. Everything else is elisp. What do I recommend? ed, mg, even nano. Barring those, use Emacs. When you start Emacs, the extensions (written in elisp, much better than vimscript) are loaded into temacs, and then the core is dumped as the Emacs executable. The binary size of Vim used to be much smaller, which was something Vim users loved to bring up, but now they're getting close -- proving that Vim is just hacks upon hacks.
Do you know how much trouble people are having trying to make neovim good? A lot, because the Vim codebase is dogshit*
>I started programming in C almost 20 years ago. Vim is, without question, the worst C codebase I have seen.
>Copy-pasted but subtly changed code abounds. Indentation is haphazard. Lines contain tabs mixed with spaces. Source files are huge.
>There are almost 25,000 lines in eval.c. That file contains over 500 #ifdefs and references globals defined in the 2,000 line globals.h.
>Some of Vim’s source code isn’t even valid text. It’s not ASCII or UTF-8. The venerable file can’t figure out the encoding.
>Many of Vim’s #ifdefs are for platforms that became irrelevant decades ago: BeOS, VMS, Amiga, Mac OS Classic, IRIX. These preprocessor statements may seem innocuous, but they slow development and inhibit new features. Also, Vim doesn’t even work on most of these platforms anymore.
*https://geoff.greer.fm/2015/01/15/why-neovim-is-better-than-vim/
*https://geoff.greer.fm/vim/#realwaitforchar
The people who use Vim _love_ superficially "minimal" software (i.e. software that appears minimal but has a terrible codebase). Software like i3, cmus, and urxvt. How many people use the Vim defaults? Almost none, that's how many. Emacs has a decent codebase, and it is (relatively) modular unlike Vim (It does have a lot of legacy cruft, not going to deny that; Stallman holds the project back). Emacs is a Lisp engine/interpreter with an editor-like interface. Parts of the buffer can be interpreted as Lisp, the session is a dynamic Lisp runtime, Lisp is its configuration language. Vim is all the code bloat of Emacs with the magic of ifdef hell, and people use tons of plug-ins/thousand line .vimrc config files making it even more adipose, because the defaults are egregious.
▶ No.942624>>942668
>carpal tunnel
There's some stretch which supposedly helps prevent carpal tunnel syndrome. You press your hand down on a table hard for around ten seconds and repeat with the second hand, or if you're a lazy fuck like me you can do both at once by pressing your hands together like pic related. It might hurt a bit at first, but do it regularly and over time your wrists should start feeling much better.
▶ No.942639>>942659 >>942667
>>942623
I like the modal editing and I use the vim defaults. I'd really love to use emacs (and i used to) but vim is just too much of it_just_werkz.mkv for me to switch. I tried doom-emacs but THAT is a hack if I ever saw one, the installation is 50/50 will it even work and when it does it's crippled and weird.
I love emacs' C mode though. Any tips that don't include countless of hours' worth of writing elisp?
▶ No.942645>>942656 >>942668 >>942699
Ergonomic keyboards (whether based on qwerty or not) are better for preventing carpal tunnel. So are correctly sized height chairs and desks.
>>942502
Just make an ergodox or buy one, heck, any other split should be ok too
>>942623
You shouldn't use vim for minimalism points, you are correct on that point
however, there is always a vim clone for every computer ever.
It's the hack job we need, not what we deserve. A legacy interface. Real SVR4-tier UNIX stuff.
Vim is still cancer.
▶ No.942656>>942668 >>942669
>>942645
I find ergonomic keyboards to be placebo. Get ready for my blogging:
I was noticing increasing pain in my hands; so I bought a Kinesis Advantage, and used it for a couple months. Still had the pain. Later, I tried Dvorak -- my pain completely disappeared; and I am not exaggerating. I tried a regular keyboard using Dvorak for a couple weeks, and I still felt no pain. What I've found to help me the most:
- Dvorak (obviously)
- Lighter switches (50g and lower)
If I had the money I'd try a Matias Ergo Pro and get back to you; but I can say for sure that the Kinesis is useless.
▶ No.942659
▶ No.942667
>>942639
What doesn't work?
▶ No.942668>>942751
>>942623
>a) It is designed around the worst keyboard layout
wow four fucking keys
>emacs
>thread about RSI
heh
>>942527
>dvorak
>>942545
>pushups
>>942555
>chinese balls
>>942624
>praying
>>942645
>ergo keyboards
>>942656
>dvorak not ergo keyboards
hmmm
>>942582
Best thing is write a key logger and then choose a layout based on that. protip: it's colemak
▶ No.942669>>943154
>>942656
>tfw you have a kinesis advantage and unicomp sitting in drawer but you prefer the $20 logitech wireless keyboard/mouse combo
▶ No.942677>>942678
>>942448
>I managed to forget QWERTY in a week of Dvorak
Muscle memory is easily overwritten.
It's all about whether you really know where everything is or if you have developed reflexes to move your fingers to the right position.
If you memorized the layout, you should be able to picture the entire keyboard in your mind without looking at an image, and you should be aware of wrong keypresses solely by knowing you didn't move your finger to the right position.
▶ No.942678
>>942677
>>942448
Also if you memorized the layout you should be able to type with one hand without trouble.
Because if you can't then it means you're only aware of the position of keys relative to where your hand rests (muscle memory).
▶ No.942681>>942683 >>942686
>>942606
I realize I can move the keys around on my existing keyboard and will probably do it. I'd just like to buy something designed around DVORAK from the start. A whole new keyboard isn't expensive and I'd like to try something with different switches. I have a few Model Ms and a Razor something that was gifted to me. I like the Model Ms better but I have that Rizon one on a gaming PC because my brother gave it to me.
Keyboard shopping is what led me to thinking about this again. I've thought about it several times over the years but never made the jump because I'm self learned on QWERTY and just had so many of them laying around. Just couldn't get around to making the switch. I've been programming for years and never gave much thought to things like the programmer layout to save all those shift key presses. Just been stuck in my ways for too many years.
I'm going to probably switch over tomorrow if I can find the time to move the keys around on the keyboard I'm using right now. I feel like being able to see the keys is going to let me re-learn the muscle memory faster. Going to need something to refer to while I adjust.
▶ No.942683>>942688 >>942718
>>942681
>if I can find the time to move the keys around on the keyboard I'm using right now
You don't need to physically move anything around. You just need to configure your system to use dvorak.
▶ No.942686
>>942681
>Going to need something to refer to while I adjust.
That's all you'll need, really. Write out the Dvorak (or Programmer Dvorak, if you want to go that route) layout on a postcard, and put it near your monitor. You mention being self-taught; so I assume you can't touch type? In that case, you'll _really_ not want to switch the keys around, they'll make you remember your bad habits. Prepare for 10 WPM typing speeds for the next couple days -- good luck.
▶ No.942688>>942690
>>942683
I'm aware but when I press one key and get another at first I'd like to be able to look down and see where it is now. I know my speed is 100% muscle memory. I can run blank keys on QWERTY but I know I'm going going to adjust to another layout without a guide at first.
Plus moving keycaps around isn't hard by any means.
▶ No.942690
>>942688
I need sleep I butchered this post. I need to clean this thing anyway so might as well do a deep cleaning and change the keys around while I'm at it. Thanks anons, you won't have to suffer my blog posting for awhile. Going back to life at 10WPM.
▶ No.942699
>>942645
I'd rather make my own for the sake of making my own stuff.
▶ No.942718
>>942683
is there any way to do this at the BIOS level?
▶ No.942751>>942876
▶ No.942759
Anon, opiods lower your pain threshold and make the problem worse over time. Pain exists for a reason and you need to listen to your body instead of squelching the problem with addictive drugs that you won't admit you're addicted to because they make you feel good.
▶ No.942763>>942834
>>942527
Can you really lose your hand to carpel tunnel syndrome? I mean on a pratical level, don't tell mW to google it, that will just spook me with the most extreme cases.
I've been getting in my mouse hand for years but I just use my left hand for a while and it does away. The pain only seems to happen at work though? I used to use a track ball mouse and that made the pain go away completely but I haven't used it in a long time?
Am I really on the way to losing use of my while hand? Please no bully.
▶ No.942796
>>942623
I was hoping you would come out of your cave when I posted that.
▶ No.942834>>942891
>>942763
Yes, the pain in carpal tunnel syndrome comes from swelling inside your carpal tunnel as a result of misuse, this puts pressure on the nerve and damages it. This is why a common clinical test for carpal tunnel involves putting an electrode on your arm and on your finger then testing the speed at which the charge travels. Complete paralysis of the hand does happen if untreated.
▶ No.942835
Anon you're way past the point of non-surgical treatment, you've left it far too long.
▶ No.942838
>>942444 (OP)
I switched to Dvorak about 8 years ago. It's not any faster than QWERTY, but it's much easier to learn to type properly and far more comfortable.
▶ No.942851
RSI is the cause of CTS
Just get an A-shaped A4tech keyboard + some 'waifu' gel mouse pad
You should also put the keyboard at the level of 'somewhere above your lap'
pen tablet > mouse
▶ No.942865>>942874 >>942948 >>943133
>get 100+ wpm using qwerty
>still not fast enough
>hear about dvorak and decide to try it thinking i could get faster
>first was like i just fucking started using a computer again
>have to look at keys obsessively to see what i'm typing
>think i'll get used to it eventually
>keep using it for a few weeks
>still can't get anywhere near 100 wpm
>it's actually fucking worse
>no matter how hard i try my hands keep getting stuck together in some fucking retarded way
Fuck your meme layout, it's absolute shit.
Qwerty is perfect because it's designed not to group shit together so your hands don't collide and throw off your typing.
Dvorak throws all that out the window and comes up with the fucking ingenious idea of throwing all the most important shit on the home row.
It's shit, nothing but shit.
Sure, you might not move your hands as much.
But you won't be typing fast at fucking all unless your 100% pozzed up on soylent to the point where your hands look like toothpicks.
▶ No.942874
>>942865
Enjoy carpal tunnel brainlet
▶ No.942876
>>942751
me laughing at how retarded this board is
▶ No.942891>>942893 >>942912
>>942834
>Complete paralysis of the hand does happen if untreated.
I understand that, but my pain goes away when I use a track ball. If I just use that am I okay. I understand that it can cause paralysis but how common is that. Is having ANY pain in your wristes mean that you will definitely lose your hand, or is it one of those things as long as you stop now you're okay?
▶ No.942893
>>942891
Oh by the way when I stop using the mouse all together it goes away. And it only happens a couple of times during the work week, but goes away completely when I'm not working like on the weekend. I read on a hostipal website that if the pain goes away after a few wwks you don't need to come in so I think I'm good but going to switch to a track ball and Dvorak pronto. Do anons think I'm still at as major risk? I've been working in IT for 20 years and have never heard of anyone bwomg treated for carpal tunnel so I never took it seriously.
My girlfriend had it but it was because she played the tuba, she was the only person.
▶ No.942899
Thanks guys I switched to programming dvorak and although it's like learning to type again it feels fucking smooth
▶ No.942912>>942922 >>943126
>>942891
It's uncommon because people treat it.
▶ No.942922>>942933
>>942912
Yes anon most things don't kill you if you remedy them.
▶ No.942933>>942938
>>942922
Hand paralysis isn't death retard
▶ No.942938>>942940
>>942933
Are you really claiming you would not kill yourself if you could not type out these retarded posts every day?
▶ No.942940>>942953
>>942938
Why would losing my hands stop me, I still have a working brain and I can always type with my feet.
▶ No.942948
>>942865
I feel the same way except I don't have to look at the keys. Funnily enough when I was learning Workman, for some reason I kept making mistakes and pressing where the dvorak key would be even though I hadn't used dvorak in over a year. I'm can only get to like half my qwerty speed so I just feel like I'm a retard.
▶ No.942949>>942956 >>942958 >>944683 >>944797
I've considered switching to Dvorak before, but never have because of a few concerns:
It's not obvious to me that optimizing the most commonly typed characters closer to the home row actually does improve typing speed/injury prevention. Typing quickly and accurately is about building up a cadence and being familiar with the stroke patterns of the words you're typing. It feels to me like stretching my finger a bit to reach a key doesn't really interfere with that, and could actually make it more comfortable in the long term. As many of you probably know, QWERTY was designed to prevent collisions of typewriter keys by spacing out commonly typed characters; I don't think that design is so inherently flawed on a keyboard.
Much of my use of the keyboard isn't in writing proper English sentences, but in writing programs and commands. I'm aware there is programmer Dvorak, but the standard QWERTY layout of peripheral symbols/numbers seems like it's optimal enough to the point where any modifications would be highly subjective and depend on the language/style, so it would be better to just make preferential modifications to your key-map(lispers switching () and [] comes to mind).
Possibly even more of my keyboard usage is in using application or global hotkeys, which are usually(hopefully) optimized to be ergonomic or topologically coherent with the QWERTY layout. Setting up a key-symbol translation layer or redefining all hotkeys to make applications work naturally seems like a nightmare.
If you use Dvorak, do you notice/care/work around these problems?
▶ No.942953>>942960
>>942940
>I will just shitpost with my feet
▶ No.942956
>>942949
>It's not obvious to me that optimizing the most commonly typed characters closer to the home row actually does improve typing speed/injury prevention.
Dvorak user here. Have been using it full time for 3 years now. My typing speed has not improved but typing feels much nicer.
▶ No.942958>>942963
>>942949
>Setting up a key-symbol translation layer or redefining all hotkeys to make applications work naturally seems like a nightmare.
You just end up never doing that. When I started I felt like oh now I gotta rebind everything. In reality you will find using bindings in their new positions work fine.
▶ No.942960>>942974 >>943007
>>942953
I used to shitpost with my nose when my carpal tunnel was really bad
▶ No.942963
>>942958
This. The only thing I rebinded was C-x to C-t in emacs
▶ No.942974
>>942960
I got carpal tunnel of the nose but it only happened on every second Tuesday of the month. Switching to dvorak cured it.
▶ No.943007
>>942960
I prefer to shitpost by taking a literal shit on my keyboard and just posting whatever the outcome is. Really takes you to the fundamentals of the art.
▶ No.943126>>943397
>>942912
I'm saying I don't know anyone that's ever gotten treated, they just lay off of it for awhile.
I'm just trying to see how serious the danger is realistically, I really don't feel like getting it treated.
People can exaggerate the danger of things like this, I'm just trying to see if that's the case here. Looking at the Cleveland Medical center webpage on it says if it goes away before 3 weeks your fine, since mine goes away in a few hours I think I'm fine.
▶ No.943133>>943139
>>942865
qwerty is the real deal tbh.
dvoraks L/R purpose is to make it easier to use the keyboard with one dominant hand while the
the actual dvorak just thought of putting the ETOAIN SHRDLU on the middle row.
>what is ETOAIN SHRDLU
non-sense filler like lorem ipsum
BUT it's actually the 12 most used letters in order
the dvorak's AOEUIDHTNS is similar to ETOAIN SHRDLU minus the R and L
BTW I haven't read a paper about dvorak. Just figured it out omo since I'm desinging a keyboard layout myself.
▶ No.943139>>943231
>>943133
>why qwerty is better
W is at the left which is kinda used (appears as first letter usually e.g, we who what where)
A appears as first letter
ZX is at the bottom left because of it being rarely used only as undo/cut
when using Q you only have to use the top row (q words follows ui or ue or is followed by o or e - e.g, baroque, quick, sequence)
MN VB sound same.
JK kinda like ZX which isn't used that much because your right hand should be tilted and higher (unlike dvorak's application with ETOAIN SHRDLU which thinks your hands can vertically alighn with the middle row - that is if you are a thin manlet)
GH for words like weigh thigh high
F is at the left because F usually appears as first word again (fall free for).
▶ No.943154
>>942669
sell it to me nigger
▶ No.943231
>>943139
do you seriously believe all that or are you making it up lmao
▶ No.943298>>944683
I used dvorak for a while, but eventually switched to colemak.
I find rolling preferable to alternation.
Might give Mod-DH a try sometime, but honestly we're at the point of diminishing returns for keyboard layouts.
▶ No.943347>>944692
1.) get keyboard with decent key rollover (aka many keys registered when held down at once)
2.) install plover
3.) ????
4.) Profit after learning stenotype for quiet a while
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuVUGKBOp9Q
▶ No.943397>>943413
>>943126
>Not treating a debilitating condition because don't feel like it
haha yes
▶ No.943413>>945250
>>943397
Come on no bully, it's not like getting seen is cheap or something. Also it's more like I don't want to go in for something that just a little painful.
It's only in my forearm anyway. And it goes away right away, I read up more on it and besides surgery, which I'm pretty sure I won't need because my pain goes away if I'm not working, all they do is give you a splint, which I can get myself.
One time I fractured my pinky and all they gave me was a metal splint I could have put on myself, got charged like $3500 after everything was said and done.
▶ No.943588>>943714
I've been trying to learn this for a few days and it's going pretty well. Any Dvorak users have tips on learning?
▶ No.943663
>>942444 (OP)
I don't have time for your commie layouts
▶ No.943714
>>943588
>Do some typing training
>>https://learn.dvorak.nl/
>Change the keyboard layout on your phone to reinforce it
▶ No.943761
I've been using Dvorak for the past 7 years or so (technically it's not regular Dvorak, but a custom programmer Dvorak. It's somewhat similar to vanilla programmer Dvorak, but the numbers are rearranged and grouping symbols are set symmetric). Dvorak is a bit better, but not as good as many people make it out to be. Using a dedicated programming layout for programming is a massive improvement, though. Having all my symbols symmetric and putting numbers into a shifted position is a massive increase in comfort while programming.
Dvorak also probably won't help carpel tunnel syndrome much. It's more about finger comfort. If you're hurting your wrists typing, it's either that your wrists are just going or you are typing with bad posture, and Dvorak won't help that.
▶ No.944683
>>943298
I tried Dvorak for 3-4 months about 6 years ago and I gave up. I switched to Colemak a year ago and reached my normal 90wpm about 2 months in.
>>942949
Colemak keeps QWERTY symbol placements and most global hotkeys don't change. I don't have to do acrobatics with my hands and fingers to type anymore, so it's pretty nice.
▶ No.944692
>learning an alternate layout that will make anyone else's computer unusable
well at least dvorak is present in most modern operating systems
>>943347
>plover
<requiring installation of software to use your keyboard layout
<learning a language-dependent layout (key location and frequency varies with language)
<having to carry your own personal dictionary around to type efficiently (stenographers use personal transcription dictionaries)
Yes, plover is great, but unless you wanna become a stenographer, It's beyond overkill.
▶ No.944700>>944797 >>945139
>changing layout instead of changing the board shape
0/10
not comfy enough
▶ No.944797>>945131 >>945135
The initial switch was a real problem for about 3/4 weeks. Productivity at my job plummited, but only for the first week. After that I got used to the keys. I was a touch typer qwerty until I switched to dvorak. Now it takes a little longer for some letters to hit, but mostly its muscle memory, so if I switch after a long time no usage, I'm hitting the qwerty keys like the old days in no time.
I quit on dvorak after a year or so, because my new laptop had backlit keyboard and I didn't want to waste that feature. But after a couple of months I switched back (now to dvorak programmer), because qwerty felt funky. You'll notice the qwerty hand movement after using dovrak for a while. And backlit keyboard is handy still, becuase now I see the qwerty keys and know which key is the dvorak one y = f j = h etc.
a tip: decide first which keyboard you want. I started out with regular dvorak us, but the switch after that was to dvorak programmer, and I still fiddle sometimes with the ; and ' (which are swapped with dvorak and dvp)
For dvorak-programmer, getting used to the new symbols takes equal amount of time, and hitting the right number sucks with shift+num and the order in which theyre put, so I use a keypad for typing numbers mostly. But holy shit, those keys are nice. No shifting for a curly or round bracket is a fucking relief, also the dash (-) on ' is way better.
I dont think its worth it though if you want to get rid of hand problems. My left hand starts to hurt after 4 to 5 hours, and that lasts until the day after. The prbolem for me turned out to be the keyboard, I bought the microsoft ergo wireless sculpt with the fat mouse and its less painful to type for long periods of time. The reason dvorak is not worth it per se with hand problems, is the learning curve and the lack of actual everyday typing profit imo. I'd recommend programmer dvorak, but remapping keys is not hard, so sticking with qwerty, but mapping funky key combinations is a solution. Vim is practically unusable btw (but im an emacs user so idc). That said i'll never leave dvorak, qwerty just feels crappy after using dvorak.
>>944700
I didnt like this keyboard, the spacebar is terrible
>>942949
I program for a living, and dvorak programmer helped a lot in improving my hand health. Brackets are way easier to type and the dash has a great spot. The dot and comma are easier to type imo (fingers up instead of down). The 9 turns to + and the 6 to =, which is nice for + typing, but the = took some getting used to.
A real pain in the ass is "ls" command which is "p;" in dvorak and the f is a bit hard to hit (y).
If you switch, which I do recommend, never look back. At one time you'll have to handle qwerty again and you'll get that dvorak is superior
▶ No.945131
>>944797
>looking down
ouch
▶ No.945135>>946023
>>944797
Good thing it's not the only ergo keyboard out there. I'm sure there's one out there that's for you. Pic related is pretty nice if you could get past the wireless bullshit.
▶ No.945139
>>944700
Why not both?
https://github.com/mattdibi/redox-keyboard
In terms of priority
>better switches
>better shape
>better key layout
The keyboard in your pic only addresses the second priority.
▶ No.945193
>>942617
You can set Vim to use Dvorak in Insert mode and QWERTY in command mode, retard.
>>942623
A wild emacsnigger appears. How predictable.
▶ No.945195
▶ No.945219
>>942623
>Emacs has a decent codebase
OH NO NO NO NO NO
▶ No.945247
>>945221
>The compressed version is 62MB
JFC
▶ No.945250>>945300
>>943413
>He doesn't have universal healthcare
▶ No.945300
>>945250
Sorry anon, I like to get my medical care next week not 8 months.
▶ No.945313>>945653
I type using the BÉPO layout, which is basically dvorak for French. I learned to type with all my fingers without looking at the keyboard when I switched to BÉPO, took me about 2 weeks. I'd really recommend to switch to such a layout if you want to learn typing blindly. My fingers move a lot less and my RSI disappeared.
▶ No.945424
▶ No.945653>>945692
>>945313
I tried to use BÉPO a few years ago. That's a good keyboard layout since you can correctly write French easily. But I always typed with 2 fingers (I know that's a bad habit). Also, writing code with that layout seems harder.
▶ No.945692
>>945653
>I tried to use BÉPO a few years ago.
Ah yes the French surrender yet again.
▶ No.945890
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBBiri3CD6w
FUARKING hell, coding with a steno looks comfy.
http://plover.stenoknight.com/2010/04/writing-and-coding-with-steno.html
Is stenography the end game? Aside from the learning curve I see no downsides.
I remember looking into chorded keyboards and they all seemed stupid, this looks useful.
▶ No.945940
>Anyone here using Dvorak instead of QWERTY?
Im using it its pretty neat
▶ No.946023
>>945135
thanks m8, but im currently satisfied with the microsoft sculpt, the version 2 of the 4000. That one is also wireless, but the range is shit. Solved by using usb extender