/tech/ - Technology★

Replace emacs and gentoo with vim and debian if you want to be productive. Purge everything you know of LISP from your mind. Physically unplug from the internet.

>>920182

>physically unplug from the internet

nice projecting m8. Just because you use it unproductively does not mean everyone else does (namely myself). Further, you're assuming I have regular internet access - I don't.

Anyway, why do you think I should use Vim instead? The comment seems intended to start a flame war - I'm rather set on Emacs due to it's ezpz extensibility, and org-mode is absolutely amazing for my needs. Perhaps you simply don't understand the power potential in mastering emacs and gnu/linux?

>>920182

>vim

>productive

You idiots were already BTFO in this thread >>917937

I wouldn't worry about it. I didn't back then and I've simply gone around picking up what I needed. Over time I've caught up a lot. Don't waste yourself in memorizing the manuals, they are there for _reference_, i.e. going to check up on something you don't quite remember or haven't used yet, using it and then continuing on with your life.

Emacs is self documenting, it has it's own manuals built in. Read them (I assume you have started), and practise with it.

>>920190

>lol just don't even bother bro

why even post? we obviously have different needs and use cases, and for mine, mastering org-mode, emacs and gnu/linux would be exceptionally helpful. Further, I am not attempting to memorize manuals, and I don't know why you think I am.

>>920194

Thank you for being the first poster to offer decent advise. In the OP I do however mention that I have begun working through the manuals. I have also been practicing with them, which I did not mention. If this is the best way to learn, then it looks like I'm headed in the right direction.

I would like to become a true emacs wizard asap

Emacs and Vim are shit. If your text editor doesn't naturally teach the user itself, its garbage. Nano is simple and effective. I don't need to learn some weird IJKL interface to use it.

>>920202

>Nano

That's a toy, not a text editor.

>>920202

>If you had one month to learn how to be as productive with Emacs and GNU+Linux as possible, how would you do it?

>use nano

i h8 this place

>>920212

i luv u 2 and was just looking into ed, acme and sam, but I truly would like to use emacs as an extensible computing environment (especially in org-mode), not just text editing - I doubt any of those other editors offer anything near the functionality of emacs org-mode.

>>920212

This guide is better: http://cottagedata.com/utils/ed/ed.html

>>920207

And I work, not larp as a hacker.

>>920221

no one cares

>>920221

>LARPing that you use nano "at work"

heh

>>920181 (OP)

>how would you do it?

I would find a knowledgabre user to help me out. As a beginner, you won't even know how to search for what you are looking for. You probably won't immediately figure out elisp right o ff the bat, so you'll be a little confused when writing your "configuration file." A more experienced user can also recommend some packages you should install to make life better.

>>920189

Of course I do.

>emacs and vimfags at it again

>meanwhile nano is still the best commandline text editor

>>920196

That's the best you can do. As with learning any complex system, learn the basic kernel of functions you need to get started, and build up the complexity as you need to understand more. Aside from the manuals, each emacs function has associated documentation, you can search names of functions, and even get the system to explain the function associated with any key binding. I wouldn't start with the indention of "learning emacs", rather, you should work on another project and learn emacs as a consequence, that will guide on which parts of the editor are worth learning and which you can naturally postpone.

Others may disagree, but I recommend staying away from things like spacemacs (is that even still around?) and learn vanilla emacs.

>>920196

I'm not sure which manuals you're referencing, but Info-mode is bound to C-h i, and it documents basically every builtin Emacs package, and function. Also, please, for the love of God, take this thread to /emacs/.

>>>/emacs/

>>>/emacs/

>>>/emacs/

>>920295

>picture

argumentum ad populum

Regardless, it shows to me that emacs users are more satisfied with their editor that they don't need Visual Studio where vim users' editor is not sufficient so they use Visual Studio.

>>920306

>argumentum ad populum

I was just about to say that.

I hate to stir the fire because I honestly don't really care, but notwithstanding, it's also less of a testament to the popularity of Emacs v/ Vi and more just a testament to people's preference for a Vi editing style. Or you could go even further and say that Emacs users are just more flexible among IDE's, had they the misfortune of being forced to use one. It could also represent Vi user's willingness to migrate to other tools when confronted with the limitations of their Vi clone. The former-most isn't even valid because Emacs has multiple editing paradigms, including a Vi mode and God mode.

>>920264

I'm curious, what OS do you use? Where are you posting from?

>>920295

>lolcow

Oh, you're one of _those_ people.

Just make sure to read through the manuals/tutorials/guides, setup a key translation layer, and set your custom key bindings under C-c {a-z}. The default key bindings are so strange.

>>920636

Most Emacs keybindings are mnemonic.

>>920440

On my desktop: Gentoo + Xorg + BSPWM

On my laptop: Gentoo + GNU Emacs

For my laptop, I live entirely in emacs as all I typically do is programming and some light web browsing. On the other hand, I use X on my desktop as I have three monitors hooked up to it. AFAIK Linux don't support anything but mirroring all the screens when in a vtty.

Also keep in mind that I don't represent all the Unix haters on the board. I think there's three more other that me

>>920701

I thought there was only one, the guy that did nothing but quote that book and emails in code blocks. I was wondering since the only options I could think up are either unix-likes or propietary garbage.

>>920306

>argumentum ad populum

Mental poison. A blazed trail is easier to walk.

>they don't need Visual Studio

For Windows development, you do. Even if you hate it. It's tangled up and tied in in so many ways to so many things it's not an option for anything but trivial dev. So you use plugins to replace the editor component as a compromise.

>>920181 (OP)

>how would you do it?

http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs.html

>>920711

So Vim users are also proprietary cucks. Good to know.

>>920711

>For Windows development

Wrong. I have had success in using gcc / g++ for compiling my applications for windows. I've even had success in creating dll extensions for programs which only support them being created in VS.

>>920295

I think that I we can all agree that VSCodefags are the worst.

My choice is vim. I could never understand emacs command bindings.

since this is now an emacs general, what's the best way to sync files from my phone?

I just need to be able to clock-in/clock-out, adjust agenda items (TODO, calendar dates) and keep a rolling list of text to append to my main files. All of this can be done offline and exported afterward, I just need a way to do this via iOS or Android

>>921172

There is literally no reason to make a general when you have your own board. And to answer your, org-mode is for macbook toting hipsters whose heads are so far up their ass they think its sane for dialogue windows to be controlled by their own popup mechanism rather than pop-to-buffer like literally every other package.

>>920196

What I told you is to pick it up as you go along, as >>920286 told you and >>920823 learned it.

Emacs 26.1 Brings Double Buffering To Reduce Flickering, Lisp Threads, 24-Bit Colors

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Emacs-26.1-Released

>>921686

>Support for optional display of line numbers in the buffer

How is this different than linum-mode?

>>921686

>a systemd user unit file is shipped as part of the package

lmfao

>>921697

Linum mode is slow on huge buffers and has some other assorted issues that were apparently enough for someone to reimplement line numbers in core.

>>921816

I've already tried it out and seems to work identical minus the fact that the line number column now is based off the amount of lines visible and not the amount of lines occupied. For example if you only have 1 line, it will have the column be 2 characters wide because if there was a line at the bottom of the screen it would take 2 numbers to represent it.

>>921686

There is literally already a thread about this, you imbecile.

>>920181 (OP)

>If you had one month to learn how to be as productive with Emacs and GNU+Linux as possible, how would you do it?

>>no 'install gentoo' or 'read "man emacs"'

Explain to me why you should drink milk, and none of that 'it's good for your bones' stuff

>>921900

This isn't an Emacs general. Also, there's an entire Emacs board so your whole post is moot.

>>920182

>Debian

Enjoy nothing working because your software is two years older than than the versions you are expected to have.

>>920181 (OP)

>Uninstall eMacs

>Install Vim

>Do the vim tutorial

Done.

>>920212

Ed is so user unfriendly it isn't even funny. Why not just use ex instead?

This kind of threads shows how there is nearly no real programmer on this board.

People don't seem to understand that any emacs user know how to use vim in the big lines, because that's what you use on foreign server.

It's just pure circlejerk, because no one seems to have anything worth to add to the discussion.

I'll not even talk about the [kool] guys, who truly would need to get banned. They're acting like 14 years old on some random online forums.

>>925502

Samefag, Op is a just a montruous lazy faggot who don't seem to have achieve any real work in his life.

There is literaly at least 20/30 extremly detailed and weel done tutorial about the exact question the author of the thread ask for on the clear. But he's so much of a fucking assisted that he can't search for himself.

I'll not even ask where the fuck are the moderators.

>>925504

>There is literaly at least 20/30 extremly detailed and weel done tutorial about the exact question the author of the thread ask for on the clear. But he's so much of a fucking assisted that he can't search for himself.

Or maybe he wants to k oe which one of those 30js the best.

apt-get install gnome

dnf install gnome

>>920823

We need more gay shit like these

People don't use emacs anymore. It's very unpopular and you'll find this out the moment you discover any problems.

>>925670

Categorically untrue.

>>925676

Your own chart shows steady popularity. Am I really supposed to be shocked that editors with lower barrier to entry are more popular? As the world produces more javascript programmers it is natural that easier browsers will have more users. Your notion that more users will result in an easier time with problem solving is also untrue. It's the standard signal to noise argument. BSD distributions have far fewer users than Ubuntu, but the average user is for more knowledgeable (and able to provide useful help) in the former case.

>>925676

Another fault, is this Google trend is based on searches. Since Emacs is self documenting, a user will spend less time Googling how to accomplish a task.

>>925682

Its the largest search engine on Earth so even if that was true, you'd still get a significant enough sample size to see obvious trends or more educated approximation

>>925700

Sad. [Switch tactics] Do we even care if it's popular with the biracial addle-brained millennial crowd? A lot of them are "what's a computer? tier" stupid, and these days, you can even be hired as a programmer despite not even knowing what memory allocation is. I hope quality over quantity wins out.

>>925700

I also looked up this, and some of oldfags are opining the state of these trends on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/691wqn/worldwide_emacs_interest_in_the_past_5_years/#bottom-comments

Essentially:

>Why not reach people on stackoverflow

>Fuck SO that is low signal-to-noise, go to the mailing list

>LOL GRAMPS WTF is a mailing list?????

>Off my lawn kid, I don't care

We've literally had three threads about this. Please fuck off to your containment board.

>>>/emacs/

>>925682

Not to mention debugging even for other languages is usually very consummate. Usually, the rare difficulties of debugging in Emacs come from poorly-designed projects.

>>925502

You clearly have never used Emacs in your life, or you would realize that Tramp not only makes this completely redundant, but is a far superior solution. Most of outsiders' dismissal of Emacs is founded out of sheer ignorance of the thing they're criticising, something a competent person would be ashamed of.

>>925903

It's not that I don't use emacs, it's that I wasn't knowing that tramp (the truth is that I'm too much used to use the command line).

I'm actually not a programmer myself, nor working in IT at all. But I stfu and don't make bullshit thread. I prefer to read and learn for the one who knows.

In the past, the only thread I made asking a dumb question has been met with a rtfm and the thread locked. That's what I'm just saying. Allowing such thread is making the general level of the board going down. I'm not even talking about the faggots meming about unix, or just fighting for/against lisp machine/lisp without never ever having touched common lisp or racket in their life.

>>925954

about tramp*

>>920823

>>nano/pico

>Boku no editor desu.

<literally nano/pico is my editor

>I actually run ed

Sending mixed signals here.

>>925954

I'm not quite sure what you just said, but I'm sorry for scolding you, anon. I was being too dismissive.

>>925685

Argumentum ad populum.

>>926038

I can't get EXWM to boot in Alpine. Since you run Alpine, I was wondering if you could help me. You do use EXWM, don't you? You are a real Emacs user after all and not a poseur, right?

>>926053

It's ok. I was wrong about emacs users using mostly vim on foreign servers, and I was talking like I knew how it was done. So you were actually right.

>>925903

>Tramp not only makes this completely redundant, but is a far superior solution

Personally I don't like tramp. Since I live in the third world country America, my internet is slow. Whenever you save, it blocks and you have to wait for it to upload the new version of the file. Since I like to save often this gets annoying. I end up just using emacs directly on the server. If tramp could save files async, it would be much better.

>>926078

Yeah, it sucks that tramp is slow by default, but making a local /tmp/ cache will help. Also, using a more low-level protocol like sshfs.

>>926129

Thanks, Shinobu.

>>926038

>Charts aren't always accurate, anon

You should develop some numeracy skills instead of raping kids.

>Pls try GNU Emacs for a week. vim,vim,vim

Fuck off with your editor wars cancer.

>>926054

In an argument about popularity you cretin.

>>926150

An argument that you instigated in order to gauge the merit of Emacs.

>>926150

In what fucking universe the number of user is an argument, especilly for tools like emacs?

Most people are tech illiterate, and the great number of programmers are pajeet using tools the college they were in told them to. That's why a great number of american faggots use apple.

And "the editor war" is actually more of a game, a circlejerk than something else. Both editors are great, and both are worth to be known. Especially for emacs users. Vim is easy to use.

>>926174

nah that would be me pointing at the graph and saying oh gee could emacs itself be the cause of this. But obviously that's not allowed. muh phallacy

>>926178

Most people are into sports, cars, music, movies, tv etc. Y'know pointless normie shit. Meanwhile you are using a text editor.

>both are worth to be known

If editing text is your hobby then sure but why stop there what about ed, sam, acme, kakoune, joe, nano, vis just think of how much it worth it would be to know all those obscure editors.

>>926215

You are effectively admitting that your argument is completely baseless.

>>926249

>the graphs aren't true because they can't be true

>actually it's good emacs isn't popular

>reee stop talking about popularity

>eh excuse me but it's a fallacy to bring up data so it doesn't even count so your argument is like totally baseless

lol you emacs fags are something else

>>926326

>>eh excuse me but it's a fallacy to bring up data so it doesn't even count so your argument is like totally baseless

But that's exactly right. Ignoring your half-assed strawmans, you're misusing data to create the illusion of ethos, and you haven't even clearly stated your point beyond what other people have already called you out for. Technical accuracy means absolutely nothing when the underlying logic is garbage. Even flat Earthers are technically accurate to a certain capacity, if not more than you because at least they're being being adversarial towards a physical phenomenon no lay person ever has to care about to a practical extent.

>>926331

lol of course the tard who opens with muh strawman proceeds to then bring up flat earthers.

>>926338

That doesn't contract from the core if my point. If my reference to Flat Earthers is somehow glaring, it's only because of your own insecurity.

>If you had one month to learn how to be as productive with Emacs and GNU+Linux as possible, how would you do it?

 M-x package-install RET evil RET 

SpaceMacs

>>925504

>Op is a just a montruous lazy faggot who don't seem to have achieve any real work in his life.

hey thanks anon!

I didn't even say anything in this thread other than the OP btw, so I guess emacs just triggers you? I searched plenty before posting as well, but answers from tech are nice, and this >>925533.

and, fwiw, I've learned a shitton about emacs and org mode since posting.

>>927116

no

I used Emacs for some time, but now I'm going to switch to vim since I now use the dvorak keyboard layout and had enough of the dumb keybindings which weren't ergonomic and didn't make sense.

>press b to go back and f to go forward a character! get it? get it? the word, "back" starts with a letter b and the word, "forward" starts with the letter f! get it? get it?

Anyone have complaints over the vim keybindings? I have yet to use it, so I don't know about any retardation as of yet. I'll likely just remap everything to my own liking if I don't like what I see. I just need to know the most common shortcuts used so I can have those keys on home row for convenience.

>>930109

So you are willing to rebind keys to use in vim, but not willing to rebind keys to use in emacs?

>>930112

Well the thing with emacs is that you always have to be holding down some other key such as control or alt. It's like playing Twister on your keyboard. I heard that vim works differently by using these things called modes, so I'm willing to give it a shot.

>>930118

The key combos are still present in vim, because they have combos for doing special actions in say insert mode. Like CTRL+x+f for file name auto complete.

I use a few different editors, but what keeps me coming back to emacs is the quality of the language modes (or plugins if you will) and of course the extensibility.

>>930109

It's funny, because I was using vi in a live medium recently with Dvorak, and it was astonishingly easy to operate, even despite years of avoiding vi. Before I started using Emacs, I switched to Dvorak and had a hard time using vi. I knew that Emacs had keybindings that worked better and scaled better (because the bindings corresponded to their functions; e.g. C-f is forward-char) across different keymaps.

It worked fine. Actually--and I wrote this in one of the resource pages on >>>/emacs/, but Emacs is more inefficient with simplified Dvorak, so I quickly switched to Programmer's Dvorak, which fixed the inefficiencies.

When I tried vi again recently, I went in with the same mindset I had with Emacs, where "j" corresponds to the "function" downward-char, and it was seamless! Obviously, not as intuitive, but Emacs' keybind logic is portable and resilient, and isn't universality over convenience a fundamental tenant of Unix philosophy? In that respect, Emacs really is the Ultimate Unix Editor--rivaled, of course, by Ed.

>>930109

You should be doing the opposite -- vi was designed around QWERTY; Emacs keybinds are mnemonic. You may find 'C-b' for going back a character awkward at first, but since Emacs uses chords, the fundamental difference is that chaining commands is easy. This also means that Colemak, Dvorak, Workman, and all of the other hipster layouts work like a dream. Can you properly use the modifier keys? A lot of people I've known always use Shift on their right side and Ctrl/Alt on their left side -- you should *always* alternate them. Another anon mentioned Programmer Dvorak; I also use it -- it's much better than ANSI Dvorak.

>>930169

>vi was designed around QWERTY

what? because of 4 keys?

>chords

lmfao you switch to a hipster keyboard layout and then use fucking keychords to give yourself RSI anyway. Holy shit.

>>930169

I currently use dvorak with the spacemacs emacs config (evil mode). Works like a dream.

>>920189

Emacs is the only editor remotely capable of efficient LISP writing.

>>930253

That's only because lispers are unaccomplished fags incapable of making another editor for their shit meme language in that meme language.

>>930253

No surprise, since Stallman was basing GNU Emacs off of the original EMACS source code.

>>920701

If you aren't using EXWM, you're not a real Emacs user.

>>930247

Where did the bad keybind touch you, anon?

>>930286

You mean where did I touch the bad keybind. The answer is in emacs.

>>930247

>what? because of 4 keys?

No, all the vi keybinds make much more (ergonomic) sense if you're using QWERTY.

>lmfao you switch to a hipster keyboard layout and then use fucking keychords to give yourself RSI anyway. Holy shit.

Read my post. If you alternate hands properly, your fingers/wrists will not cramp up.

>>930247

>lmfao you switch to a hipster keyboard layout and then use fucking keychords to give yourself RSI anyway. Holy shit.

If you do proper stretching and sport, then you'll not have problems either.

Fatass who drink mountain dew all day have these problems.

Btw, Stallman had RSI problem because of the keyboard. He said that when he switched to a keyboard that require lighter pressure, the problem disappeared.

What I personally did too is switch Alt and Ctrl. Emacs was programmed on a keyboard where these two keys were reversed.

>>920181 (OP)

>If you had one month to learn how to be as productive with Emacs and GNU+Linux as possible, how would you do it?

fuck both those terrible programs.

>>920182

> vim

> debian

> productive

you need to leave.

>>930436

You don't really have to justify Emacs. Out of all the text editors, Emacs is undeniably the one to have the most instances of RSI. What people don't tell you is that Vi is the runner up, but it's overshadowed by comparison. It's very weird, though, because the issues that most people ascribe to their "Emacs pinkie" are usually resolved by something markedly worse, like switching the Ctrl and CapsLock, which causes a lot of extension. There's more commentary on this here: https://8ch.net/emacs/interface.html

>>930247

It's ironic that you would laud that over Emacs, because Emacs actually has two (2) modal input modes: A Vi emulation mode, eVil, and a similar modal editing scheme whose bindings are mnemonic and not self-mutilatingly archaic and specialised, God mode. In a sense, God-mode is the most contemporary input mode of most popular editors, the difference being that God-mode is thorough and scales far better than that of its vi-emulating contemporaries and is far more amiable than the traditional mnemonic-but-needs-modifiers paradigm.

And, besides that, your "hipster keyboard layouts" don't just encompass Dvorak, the also encompass international keyboards. Not that I'm making a very important point; hjkl is a very trivial thing to accommodate, but, with God-mode in mind, I still like traditional editing with modifiers because it's far quicker and more intuitive.

>>930447

That's right my man. macOS + Sublime Text is peak enlightenment. You're mad, only because you know this to be true

>>920207

Its not actually that bad. I like using it when I have to copy and paste some thing cuz vim doesn't play well with copy and pasting.

>>930473

>Emacs pinkie

This purely fault of the keyboard. I can hold Ctrl all day long and not get exhausted. I've never felt pinky exhaustion when on my desktop. On my laptop, I have experienced this before.

I think me not feeling it on the desktop is due to a combination of: having a mechanical keyboard, the keyboard has an incline, I have my keyboard slightly rotated to the right, and I have practice / flexibility for hitting control since I've used it so much.

>>920189

>lisp meanie

who is this? can you provide screenshots? I have a feeling it might be me

>>930499

Sublime is actually nice and fast, but damn do the extension packages suck. You can always count on emacs to have a featureful mode for your language of choice, whereas with Sublime/Atom/VScode, you're lucky if the faggot who made the extension package got the regexp right for the syntax right.

Hopefully everyone will agree that https://langserver.org is a better long term solution.

Use a print copy of the Emacs manual by RMS.

>>930473

Yeah, there are cases of RSI on emacs, but what is your conclusion then? I just see a very deep editor, that require a lot of skill to use. As I said, the current keyboard are very different from old keyboard, that were hard as hell.

>resolved by something markedly worse, like switching the Ctrl and CapsLock, which causes a lot of extension

You're right, that's advice even for vim. I truly don't understand that. That's why I just switched Ctrl and Alt. I planned to actually buy a japanese keyboard, which have a little space bar, and so the control key far closer to the thumb. I can't see anyone having problems this way.

But yet, that's a retarded argument against emacs. Seriously. Cases of RSI is all about programmers coding 10 hours straight on shitty keyboards.

>>930649

>I just see a very deep editor,

AKA Bloated

>>930674

Have you ever used it?

I'm not even a programmer. My vision of emacs, is it being an incredibly enhanced terminal, with infinitless extensibility.

It's a great pleasure to code in lisp btw. A little pain to not have some common lisp features, but that's ok.

>>930679

I have the same frustration as you. Emacs works best as a frontend for Unix tools. Not all tools in general, because, if Eclim is evidence of anything, it's hard to get parity, maintain, debug, etc.... And most extensions written in Elisp that could be implemented in a better language always get deprecated, because Elisp is very technically flawed. But Emacs can also transform a powerful tool that's very difficult to use to its full extent in cli like aria2c or ledger and create a respectful, extensible frontend for it incredibly quickly that changes aria2c into basically a full-featured download manager with the most optimized bindings and interface right out of the box. There is absolutely no reason to use any other terminal emulator other than Emacs on Unix, because all the other ones are awful at manipulating text. It's very telling that Emacs is more like Acme than a traditional text editor.

And, by popular standards, all Vi clones are bloat. They're not as fundamental as ed, so they're just bloated enough that you have to think about them, but they're neither as extensible as Emacs nor add so much to the Unix experience to justify said bloat.

>>930118

>Well the thing with emacs is that you always have to be holding down some other key such as control or alt.

Blatantly wrong.

>>930674

>AKA Bloated

Emacs does not try and follow the UNIX philosophy, and neither should it as it acts as an abstraction layer over the abomination of an inferior operating system. I don't care that emacs doesn't do one thing well. Just because the UNIX developers couldn't create bug free software that can do more than one thing (oh wait those had bugs too), it doesn't mean all software should follow that idea.

I will agree that there does exist bloated software (take a look at pretty much any proprietary IDE).

One day Lisp, with the help of GNU Guix, RMS, and McCarthy's ghost shall dispense freedom to the masses!

>>925440

The appeal of ed in 2018 is that it doesn't take you out of the shell and clear out the terminal window, which can be nice for short edits when there's something in the terminal window you want to reference. It's true that ex and vim have a :shell command to bring you back to the shell and that most terminals have tabs, but why waste time doing that for some short little edit?

>>930789

>when there's something in the terminal window you want to reference

Yeah if only you could have multiple windows.

>>930815

Where is the actual programmer slide?

Because you only linked mobile (pajeet), web (not programming) and sys admin (basically bash scripts).

Anyway, even what you link shows that quality is not quantity, since we all should move to visual studio if that were true.

Moreover, people use the editor the teachers told them to use in college, and they stick with it. So even there, quantity is not an argument.

>>930864

They did not provide data for any other categories. Quantity doesn't imply quantity, but it does not bode well for the ecosystem if the mindshare is leaving it behind. Emacs will always exist, but we may find that in the future, there will be less priority towards emacs language modes, and fewer developers willing to add enhancement and fix issues. The sample size is ~ 100,000 developers, so 5% is still large enough for now, it'll be interesting to see what future trends show.

>>930864

yeah make a chart of quality then.

>>930882

argh

>quantity (second) -> quality

>>930815

>>930814

Ironically, I would say this has to do, in part, with the fact that Unix is also falling out of favor. Not in the superficial sense that GNU and FreeBSD are falling out of the forefront in the desktop market (inb4 macOS is BSD), and the desktop in itself is falling out of favor with the lay people; Piero "Why can't I marry a twelve-year-old girl?" Scaruffi makes a very apt dichotomy where tools are extensions of ourselves and machines are things we need to operate. Lay people would rather have machines to operate that work well and will work with a superficial knowledge rather than a tool that expands your understanding not only of the medium but of yourself. The latter inclination is what makes specialists, and specialists are inherently a minority.

My Uncle insists on making these construed comparisons between the dumb terminals of his college days and the lobotomized, proprietary software in contemporary computers with the advent of "cloud" computing. Well, he didn't acknowledge the proprietary aspect, but that's my interpretation. Another parallel he didn't make, probably because his knowledge of computer history is limited to his own personal experience, is the one where original computers were operated by primarily female "programmers", whose job was a lot more trivial than that of programmers a few decades later in the early Computer Chronicles days, where computer programming was associated with enterprise, and a fair disposition of business men and women (of fairly even proportions) had a working knowledge of low-level programming, and then we reached the point where programming was a specialised craft.

>>930814

Emacs has remained steadily popular for the past decade, it just hasn't grown much compared to other editors.

There's still a very vibrant community and multitudes of packages being made, so I don't see it dying any time soon. That's the advantage when everyone using the editor can program it to some extent.

by uninstalling emacs

nano is best CLI editor

>be me

>want to edit file

>nano file.file

>make edit

>^X, y, enter

>saved without getting RSI or any other variety of e-AIDS from keybinding autism

>vimfags and emacsfags will attack this

>>931970

There were some graphs posted in another thread showing that Emacs has remained roughly steady in terms of search popularity while other editors have risen and fallen.

C-x s is shorter than C-x y RET

>>931994

>what is nano -z

>>931984

Go back to /g/.

>>932186

Keybinding autism is no more useful than an editor that just works. Fight me.

>>932191

How do you delete the entire current line in nano? How do you search and replace in nano?

>>932200

There's a ^\ for replacing things.

You can highlight and ^k lines.

It's possble to have basic functions without cokebottles.

>>920181 (OP)

Install Fedora and set up a practice server.

Is there an easy way to learn Emacs _without_ all of the terrible binds? I know there's Evil mode but it looks like a pain to get it set up for every mode.

>>941433

>You will never be as anything as possibly in just a month. Just learn more and try new things.

What I meant in the OP was to get as good as possible within a one month time span. I didn't intend to get as good as humanly possible within a month, of course, I just wanted solid strats to git gud quick.

In the end, I got ok, and that's just fine. Learning the manuals and emacs own built in help commands was probably the best decision I could've made.

>>953476

>easy

>Emacs binds

lol no almost everything in emacs is half-baked. The best mode it has is a non-task manager, non-project manager, non-organizer that uses markup that nothing else uses. This is "life changing" for emacs plebs.

>>920181 (OP)

Is there any movement or posix-like standard proposal that aims to embrace emacs self documenting style and plain text approach? I love reading the emacs manuals and never needing to launch X, but for most books this is not feasible (particularly those with diagrams). I would love to see more plain text books with ASCII art.

>>955613

>reading books

and basically that's one of the main reasons I'm going to launch X, so I can access mupdf (which unfortunately doesn't support djvu!). I like to minimize my time in a graphical environment, so a solution to reading books (and also viewing my latex files) would be stellar.

Emacs is a bloated corpse, it's time to just let it die. I would never use it, but Atom is probably better these days, simply owning to the mindshare of developer attention.

>>955669

emacs is only horizontally bloated, which is roughly ok. you can rather easily lean it out, with projects like zile doing exactly that.

don't trash talk emacs in my thread ever again faggot

>>955669

Just as the other guy said, it's trivial to remove features you don't need within Emacs. These features are there by default for the purpose of convenience so if you feel they aren't relevant for you, you can just get rid of them.

>>955818

>>955820

>remove features

lol the real gnunix philosophy right here.

>>955828

Yes, that's how software works. You remove features that you don't need. You can leave them there if you're too lazy to act upon them.

>>955669

>emacs is bloated

>electron is not

>>931984

ed

>>930109

“People talk about getting used to a new editor, but over time, it is precisely the opposite that should happen -- the editor should get used to us.”

Speaking of getting use to Emacs…

How many of you here use alternative keys for Control and Meta? I just couldn't stand using Ctrl on my ThinkPad and swapped C and M: C - Alt and M - Ctrl.

>>955840

>Not compiling your software with every feature enabled and then complaining to mainline about features you don't need

lmaoing @ your life, I but you don't even use a monolithic kernel with all the modules compiled.

>>956097

Switching around keys can actually be kind of counter-intuitive. In my opinion, if you most escape the modifier keys, it's better if you just use God-mode.

I know you're all probably getting sick of /emacs/ by now, but I wrote this commentary, and it might be of use: http://8ch.net/emacs/interface.html

>>956099

Thanks, I'll check it out.

>>956097

>>956099

Sorry, that's the 8ch hidden service. Here's the real link: 8ch.net/emacs/interface.html

>>956097

You know emacs is a trash fire when the most popular packages emulate fucking vim. Like holy shit these lithp hackers couldn't come up with an interface that was better than vim.

>>956138

Or when it's users spend time discussing which completion project: ido, ivy, helm; is the most shit.

>>956138

>>956207

Firstly, congratulations on bumping this thread. I'm very proud of you.

Command/insertion editing isn't something that's exclusive to Vim; there's a whole family of editors like that, and it's a fundamental part of text editing for a lot of people, although the paradigm has lost its favor in more recent years. To imply that Vim is the sole standard is kind of disrespectful to other projects in that vein such is nVim and Elvis--clearly you have experience with neither.

Emacs doesn't emulate Vi or any facsimile, and it just emulates bindings, and there are several packages that alter bindings. It's disturbing that you think the end user interface is inherently bound to one interaction paradigm, because I'm pretty sure that isn't even true of Vim. And, to add to that previous point, of the multiple interface packages, there is a package that takes Vi's command/insertion method and improves on it by taking its archaic, arbitrary bindings and assigning functions to mnemonic chords instead--it's called god-mode.

I'll be the first one to say that Emacs is the ultimate Unix text editor, only rivaled by Ed. You see entries about it all the time on how Emacs is too Unix, assumes too many of the Unix-isms that they loathe.

Also, nobody complains about Ido/Ivy/Helm except for MacOS users who've never tried the three, or else they would understand (as you apparently don't) that the three are fundamentally different and appealing in different respects--kind of like Emacs and other text editors.

>>956269

>MacOS users

Emacs has been included in OSX as far as I can remember. It's ok though, you get to pretend to be amongst the operating system elite by making reddit style comments like that.

>the three are fundamentally different

Ido and Ivy are very similar, but thanks for confirming that you do not know what you're talking about. Ivy was created to address problems with Ido's implementation.

>>920181 (OP)

learn to use multiple buffers with multiple tabs in terminal and learn to use regex with grep. those are the basic necessities. to learn this i would work on personal projects. if you have not enough motivation to work on personal projects then you shouldn't be in software.

>>956313

also

>put aliases to work for you

>customize your terminal prompt for improved readability

>"C-c o" is great for switching between header and source.

>rice out your system to make it comfy

>>956286

I was going to scold you, but you're right. When I said that Helm/Ivy/Ido, were fundamentally different, I meant to write that Helm/Ivy/Ido are fundamentally the same but had discernible variations--enough to warrant a primitive dialogue, but I didn't want you to think that I was condoning the prompt completion circlejerk, so that's why alluded to MacOS. I'm not sure why you mentioned the fact that Emacs has been ported to MacOS, because GNU Emacs has been ported to basically every operating system, but I don't doubt that the significance of MacOS parasites in the Emacs community went over your head–and I don't blame you, and it's something that I've been quietly brooding about for a long time. That's part of the flaw of being so portable, is that MacOS users can enjoy most of the advantages of Emacs, but they're not really using Emacs, in my opinion. And that's not because GNU is the operating system GNU Emacs kind of birthed, it's just that MacOS can't use X11 (at least not fully), and thus not EXWM, which is a huge part of Emacs. Also, if you're truly devoted to Emacs, why would the peripheral operating system have any draw? Wouldn't it just be a bootloader? And, if so, wouldn't you want the one that's under a free license, that boots faster, that's more flexible and more redistributable? Hypocritical bullshit. In a lot of Emacs commentary and seminars, it's coincidentally the MacOS users who stir up shit about Ivy is more "minimal" than Helm. Those seminars are the fucking worst as it is, with the constant circlejerks and the same damn stupid jokes about "Emacs is an oberating system" and so on, but the MacOS users are just the worst. They write awful packages, too. For example, the org-mode author is a MacOS user, and it has awful window management, because he only uses Emacs with one window–doesn't even care. This bastard wrote a package, Helm-dictionary, and put it in melpa, but it's a frontend for a proprietary MacOS package that can't be ported.

I'm just rambling at this point. I don't even know why I'm arguing with you, I hate this thread and all the Emacs users in it. I wish more people would post on /emacs/ so that I don't have to deal with the /tech/ bullshit where people don't even read the thread and repeat the same bullshit over and over again--kind of like an Emacs seminar.

I code ONLY in C and I do it in fucking gedit because that's the only IDE I need. Guess what bitches, I don't need Valgrind or any of that gdb bullshit in my flow. My code doesn't have leaks, and if it did I would find it by putting comments in my code, which despite it being a +10,000 line project is implemented flawlessly. I am a master of character arrays, which some newbies might call strings and can parse them like nobodies business.

Why would I ever use an emacs? There's a grep built right in to the computer to find the file with the fucked up function. If you don't know what to grep for you're a bad programmer.

>>956342

I almost feel bad that you wasted so much time on this rant, but it does underscore what I hate about the emacs community, you're a caricature of yourselves the same way MacOS users are, it's just that you don't know it.

When I first discovered emacs, it was a lot of fun. I'd heard that 'leet hackers' used it, so that forced my choice. Being young and arrogant, I didn't even believe in such a thing as a 'learning curve', because when you're a teenager, you're the smartest person in the world, and if others can do it, it must be easy. With that mindset, I went through the info pages, read all the fundamentals, and taught my self emacs lisp. I didn't care about the politics of it, the community, it was just a great piece of engineering that I respected and used to get my work done. To be honest it was the same with vim, I learned that as well before I even knew that editor wars were a thing.

Then you meet the emacs community, good god. Incessant zealotry, constant evangelizing, and bickering over pointless crap. Thousands of unaccomplished people railing against the wind because they see Emacs on an operating system they don't feel is FREE enough, or in this instance, the particular windowing system isn't X11. This is a cancerous mentality that people do not want to be around. Is this why younger programers of today flock to Atom? With the privilege of great internet connections, they first meet emacs through its community of users, instead of discovering it on their system.

This post is now as pointless as yours, but that's ok.

>>956346

>Then you meet the emacs community, good god. Incessant zealotry, constant evangelizing, and bickering over pointless crap. Thousands of unaccomplished people railing against the wind because they see Emacs on an operating system they don't feel is FREE enough, or in this instance, the particular windowing system isn't X11. This is a cancerous mentality that people do not want to be around. Is this why younger programers of today flock to Atom? With the privilege of great internet connections, they first meet emacs through its community of users, instead of discovering it on their system.

You do realize the irony of this, right? Not just the immediate irony of this thread, but, also, you're posting on /tech/. We're both hypocrites for whining about the bickering and zealotry while literally perpetuating bickering and zealotry on a board devoted to bickering and zealotry.

>>956423

To be fair, I wouldn't recommend /tech/ either.

>>956423

>but we are all zealots

>t. owner of /emacs/

Sure thing.

Install evil on it