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 No.887124>>887132 >>887213 >>887216 >>887234 >>887238 >>887277 >>887280 >>887317 >>887462 >>888721 >>888723 >>888724 >>888823 >>889135 >>890215 [Watch Thread][Show All Posts]

>30 years ago

every single 10 year old that had a home computer in his house knew how to program in BASIC

>today

adult in his early 20's who uses a computer for almost everything doesn't even know what a variable is

what happened?

 No.887127

Computers got too easy to use.


 No.887129

File (hide): 71d087cba9cb4d8⋯.mp4 (4.68 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, gameoflife.mp4) (h) (u) [play once] [loop]

no one has computer nowadays


 No.887132>>887136 >>887142 >>887213

>>887124 (OP)

>30 years ago

Computers are hardly useful for more than work, thus mostly used by professionals

>today

Computers are basically a necessity for modern life and everyone has one or several of them


 No.887136>>887141

>>887132

people have smartphones, computers are for the ancients


 No.887141>>887171

File (hide): a2f1e5cd1105d66⋯.jpg (69.59 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, whatisacomputer.jpg) (h) (u)


 No.887142

File (hide): 94a641579d5a6ad⋯.jpg (291.78 KB, 1199x930, 1199:930, A-Talk.jpg) (h) (u)

>>887132

In 1988 the computer gaming industry was already big, and the hardware was good enough to do music and pixel art (esp. on Amiga and Atari ST). But even on PC, lots of dudes made things, even if it was just ANSI art, and the BBS scene was pretty strong.

But overall it was still more of a hobbyist environment, where you learned to program games in BASIC or Turbo Pascal and did shit on your own or in small groups, without any corporate/political influence or a bunch of random faggots telling you what you're supposed to like and do.


 No.887171

>>887141

thats a facebook-machine, not a computer


 No.887193

Subhuman normalfags ruin everything.


 No.887213>>887224 >>887399

File (hide): fda9afdc8af8e27⋯.png (480.59 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, ClipboardImage.png) (h) (u)

>>887124 (OP)

>>887132

Was Jobs a mistake?


 No.887216

>>887124 (OP)

>what happened?

Eternal September and the easiness of use of computer in the most dumb way that it could have been done:

IT JUST WORKS

There was no good pedagogical system made in the beginning for the masses and there still isn't the use of a computer should have required a computer license but nooo lets just let any niggercattle drive a car with no license.


 No.887224

>>887213

Reminder that Jobs sniffed his own farts so hard that it killed him.


 No.887225

We must have many children and teach them the lost art of proper computing and steer them away from the wide road to hell that is mobile platforms.


 No.887233

>/tech/

>having children

lol


 No.887234

>>887124 (OP)

only rich well-to-do families had computers 30 years ago.


 No.887238>>887255 >>887361 >>887657

>>887124 (OP)

>BASIC

That's the problem. Corps were hiding computers from users under layers of abstraction even back then.


 No.887255

>>887238

You could still use assembler if you'd like, and many did because BASIC was too slow for more ambitious projects.


 No.887261>>887280

File (hide): 1876f68ac79993b⋯.webm (1.39 MB, 1280x720, 16:9, Terry Davis - Where It Al….webm) (h) (u) [play once] [loop]

Obligatory


 No.887277>>887417

>>887124 (OP)

>every single 10 year old that had a home computer in his house knew how to program in BASIC

t. not me

>adult in his early 20's who uses a computer for almost everything doesn't even know what a variable is

t. me

op teach me how to be good at computers like the good ol days


 No.887278

I don't expect everyone to be able to code, but people should at least understand the basics of using a computer. Like those people who save everything to the goddamn desktop because they don't understand how directories work. That's simply not acceptable.


 No.887280>>887310 >>889754

>>887124 (OP)

Millennials are truly a wasted generation.

At least Gen Zyklon B are using SBCs at the age of 10.

>>887261

/thread


 No.887310

>>887280

not so much wasted as lost. unfortunately for gen z the economic effects of an entire generation being utterly destroyed economically will be felt long after we are dead. the boomers are crashing this plane with no survivors.


 No.887317>>887569

>>887124 (OP)

They made the machines stupid so they wouldn't scare the nigger cattle, that's what happened. Every baboon and retard can have a pooter nowadays.


 No.887361

File (hide): 61b264b014de1bd⋯.jpg (402.42 KB, 508x657, 508:657, CoverTRS80News.jpg) (h) (u)

>>887238

There wasn't much abstraction. You didn't get all kinds of libraries and frameworks, you had to write your own stuff. BASIC even gave you direct access to all the computer's memory and ports, and you could even overwrite the OS if you wanted to (pretty much the equivalent of ring 0 on modern hardware). But mostly that was useful for POKE'ing machine language instructions into memory and calling it like a subroutine. Because BASIC itself was good enough for turn-based or slow-paced games, but if you wanted to do a fast action game, you needed to use some machine language.

Terry mentions in one of his videos that a very common beginner's program was a memory dumper. You could do something like that in a dozen lines of code, and then expand it into an actual hex editor, and later modify it to read/write floppy disk instead of memory. There weren't any big hurdles in the way like nanny OS or complicated filessytem. And best of all, if you fucked up, simply hitting the reset button brought you back to a sane state in one second (assuming your machine had BASIC in ROM or on cartridge), otherwise it took a few more seconds.


 No.887399

File (hide): 143f6f954a00cf6⋯.jpg (55.91 KB, 800x450, 16:9, RMS on Steve Jobs' Death.jpg) (h) (u)

>>887213

Do you even need to ask?


 No.887417

>>887277

install gentoo fgt


 No.887436>>887454

The need to learn how to program is far less today than it was before


 No.887454>>890075

>>887436

I don't agree, and not everyone needs to be a programmer, but people don't even know what an operating system is. Even when I was a kid in the 90s we were at least taught basic stuff about computers, dos, and windows. Now they just 'teach' nigger-cattle to use microsoft office, and every aspect of the computer itself is just voodoo.


 No.887460

IQ curve. When computers were only available to top researchers the users were even smarter. As more people get access to computers of fucking course the quality of the average user will go down.


 No.887462>>887465 >>887475

>>887124 (OP)

If you think a variable in computer science and a variable in grade school mathematics are substantially different things, then you don't know shit about computers.


 No.887465

>>887462

>t. doesn't know shit about computers


 No.887475>>887482 >>887485

>>887462

>variable

>in math

anon, in 1 = x + 2 x is not a variable. It's a constant.


 No.887482>>887493

>>887475

but in y=x x is a variable


 No.887485

>>887475

Well actually, it is an equality.


 No.887493>>887572 >>887655

>>887482

No, it's a constant with a value of y. If you have f(x) = x then x is a variable but I don't think you see that in grade school.


 No.887508

>3rd world shithole of a country

>had to learn "informatics" by cardboard print-outs of a keyboard

>still knew more about /tech/ than today's kids drowning in pocket computers, gaming battle stations, flying toy robots and government issued school-laptops.


 No.887569

>>887317

They were dumbed down for lower-middle class whites, fag.

In what dimension did Nigs have money to buy computers en masse before the mid-2000s?


 No.887572>>887618 >>887655

>>887493

y=x is only used for basic algebra. After Year/Grade 8, you use f(x).


 No.887618

>>887572

As long as the point is getting across.


 No.887655

>>887572

>>887493

Both x and y are variables, x being independent (taking any values from the functions domain) and y being dependent on x (and thus taking values from a range which depends on both the domain of x and the relationship betwen x and y established by y = f(x)).

>After Year/Grade 8, you use f(x)

The derivative expressed as dy/dx or y' is hardly "basic algebra". Even in differential equations y is used because it's much simpler to write y (when it is obvious what y is and what it is dependent on) than f(x).


 No.887657

>>887238

BASIC on just one floppy came with many computers, while C compilers and things like that were nowhere near the obviously easy thing to get back then.


 No.887814

BASIC was simple. I remember finding it on the Windows 98SE CD, running it and I could already start to program. These days, a guy wanting to program has to: choose a language, install compiler, install IDE, install libraries. Then deal with dumb shit such as declaring variables, semicolons, or God forbid, forced fucking indentation, instead of just coding.


 No.888178>>888188 >>888195

Seems incredible parochial to imagine that every non-brainlet dedicating there time to learning to program would be constructive. What is physics, electrical engineering, biology, etc.


 No.888188

>>888178

No one demands everyone to become expert hacker, just basic computer literacy is enough.

>What is physics, electrical engineering, biology, etc.

Fields of science where even a little bit of programming know-how can help immensely.


 No.888195

>>888178

To be fair people are already taught the bare basics of physics and biology. IMO more of electricity should be taught, I've sometimes felt it necessary. Basics of coding should be taught too, but CS should not (if there's time add some more math or logic instead). For dummies coding is something anyone with a 3-digit IQ is able to grasp (with effort, I'm not saying it's easy), don't forget even MBAs manage it with Excel.


 No.888674

Programming is too focused on UNIX languages like C, C++, Java, JavaScript, and PHP, which all suck. BASIC is simple and easy to learn.

I feel compelled to submit the following piece of C code:

switch (x)
default:
if (prime(x))
case 2: case 3: case 5: case 7:
process_prime(x);
else
case 4: case 6: case 8: case 9: case 10:
process_composite(x);

This can be found in Harbison and Steele's "C: A Reference
Manual" (page 216 in the second edition). They then remark:

This is, frankly, the most bizarre switch statement we
have ever seen that still has pretenses to being
purposeful.

In every other programming language the notion of a case
dispatch is supported through some rigidly authoritarian
construct whose syntax and semantics can be grasped by the
most primitive programming chimpanzee. But in C this highly
structured notion becomes a thing of sharp edges and lose
screws, sort of the programming language equivalent of a
closet full of tangled wire hangers.


 No.888721

>>887124 (OP)

and they grew up to be faggots who post stories on HN about how they used basic when they grew up and they still suck. seriously, everyone there is retarded and they spend their entire life coming up with new memes like "le abstraction doesn't exist" and "security is hard". they don't even know how to do some basic concurrent programming, or how to sanitize input into their retarded database queries

>adult in his early 20's who uses a computer for almost everything doesn't even know what a variable is

nope, all the kiddies know JS now. but yes unfortunately they don't know what an integer is and all their programs spew undefined and NaN everywhere


 No.888723>>889169

>>887124 (OP)

Computers went from extremely niche items that only autists would seek out to being extremely common items that are in every single household no matter what.


 No.888724>>888793

>>887124 (OP)

>30 years ago

>every single 10 year old that had a home computer in his house knew how to program in BASIC

All 100 of them. kek


 No.888793>>888830

File (hide): bb02b0fb8633186⋯.png (2.34 KB, 384x272, 24:17, 2.png) (h) (u)

>>888724

Wat. 30 years ago was 1988. There were tons of home computers in homes at that time. What you're talking about is more like the mid 70's when you had to build your own computer from a kit.

I personally knew well over a dozen other kids with various computers, everything from Apple II, TRS-80, Amstrad CPC, and Atari ST. And they all knew how to operate it and write some BASIC. The manuals that came with the computer taught you everything.


 No.888823

>>887124 (OP)

They used to teach BASIC to every kid in school who wasn't at the lead paint chip eater tier.

Dartmouth pioneered the idea of teaching it to liberal arts majors and this spread far and wide, some people even credit this for sparking the home computer revolution.

These days the funding and energy is directed toward <insert non white male person> studies departments so the Chinese can dominate us. Yes, it was commies on the Long March Through The Institutions who ruined education in the USA.


 No.888830>>888841

>>888793

>The manuals that came with the computer taught you everything.

Not my manuals man. I want a single page. It needs to only contain surface material. I don't need to know the internals of programs. I don't need to know how the outputs work with out programs. Just a single page, preferably with one sentence on it. Also, everything is electronic data now, no more physical copies, ever.


 No.888841>>888843

>>888830

When HP started selling RPN calculators without a printed full manual I knew we were fucked.


 No.888843

File (hide): 1bc9374f3fe81a0⋯.jpg (44.48 KB, 639x419, 639:419, watch-out.jpg) (h) (u)


 No.888885>>888899 >>888912

A reality which universities and faggots on the internet refuse to accept is that LOWER-LEVEL LANGUAGES ARE EASIER TO LEARN FOR BEGINNERS; and because they generally mimic the operation of actual hardware better (i.e. you can convert a statement to an approximation of clocks used in your head), PEOPLE WHO LEARN WITH LOWER LEVEL LANGUAGES ARE SUPERIOR PROGRAMMERS.

The reason crap like C# and Javascript keeps getting taught as a _first_ language is that people who use it in their jobs hope novices will be baby-duck'ed into using it too, just like them. The other reason is that for the people who spend their time developing these frameworks and abstractions, they simply don't want to see something they put work into ignored.

However, the actual experience for a complete novice using one of these is

>"Oh hey, let me try doing something that wasn't explicitly stated in the tutorial"

>Get some error message that either is too vague to be useful, or generates some barf about inheritance and abstract virtaul yadda-yadda-yadda

>"Hey guys, how do I make this small change?"

>>"Well first of all what you want to do is make a class with a constructor/destructor, overload this set of operators, and select which members are public and private. Then you make some friends of that class which extend the ............

....... But really, why are you implementing it yourself? Just use ThisFadLibrary instead".


 No.888899

>>888885

Do you think computer classes should start with something like Altair-8800?

That would be rad.


 No.888912>>888914 >>888920 >>888955

>>888885

>and because they generally mimic the operation of actual hardware better

C only "mimics" the hardware on hardware made to run C in the first place. RISCs mimic the operation of C because RISCs were designed to run C and UNIX programs. Any instruction not used by a C compiler is considered CISC by RISC weenies. Lisp machines are about efficiency and productivity. They were invented to make dynamic typing and GC and bignums faster because they were slow on most other hardware. Having these features on the lowest levels makes them more efficient and more productive.

>The reason crap like C# and Javascript keeps getting taught

C# and JavaScript look like C and they were designed for C and Java programmers. Hating C# and JavaScript means hating UNIX.

>The other reason is that for the people who spend their time developing these frameworks and abstractions, they simply don't want to see something they put work into ignored.

You're starting to understand the problem, but this applies even more to C and UNIX. That's why UNIX-Haters is still relevant. That's why they're still shilling Plan 9, an OS that was bad for 1991.

Subject: Hating Unix Means Hating Risc

Date: Fri, 22 Mar 91 21:34:47 EST
From: JW

Hey. This is unix-haters, not RISC-haters.

Look, those guys at berkeley decided to optimise their
chip for C and Unix programs. It says so right in their
paper. They looked at how C programs tended to behave, and
(later) how Unix behaved, and made a chip that worked that
way. So what if it's hard to make downward lexical funargs
when you have register windows? It's a special-purpose
chip, remember?

Only then companies like Sun push their snazzy RISC
machines. To make their machines more attractive they
proudly point out "and of course it uses the great
general-purpose RISC. Why it's so general purpose that it
runs Unix and C just great!"

This, I suppose, is a variation on the usual "the way
it's done in unix is by definition the general case"
disease.


 No.888914

>>888912

Do you know how I know you are full of shit?

>Any instruction not used by a C compiler


 No.888920>>888954

>>888912

>dynamic typing and GC

I wouldn't pay even a dollar more for the extra silicon needed to implement that bloat. Especially when you consider the inevitable increase in power consumption.

>more efficient and more productive

Cool buzzwords. Are you some sort of corporate manager?

>C# and JavaScript look like C and they were designed for C and Java programmers. Hating C# and JavaScript means hating UNIX.

>W and X look like Y, and Y is associated with Z, therefore hating W and X means hating Z

ebin


 No.888954>>889367

>>888920

>I wouldn't pay even a dollar more for the extra silicon needed to implement that bloat. Especially when you consider the inevitable increase in power consumption.

You would end up saving money, silicon, power, and memory. We're already paying more for x86 bloat and wasted silicon than any extra silicon that would come from a Lisp machine.

https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~kubitron/cs252/handouts/papers/symbolics.pdf

>Hardware can process the tag in parallel with other hardware that processes the rest of a word. This makes it possible to optimize safety and speed simultaneously.

>Automatic storage management is simple, efficient, and reliable. It can be assisted by hardware, since the data structures it deals with are simple and independent of context.

>Data use less storage due to compact representations. Programs use less storage due to generic instructions and because tag checking is done in hardware, not software.

>>more efficient and more productive

>Cool buzzwords. Are you some sort of corporate manager?

No, but it is more efficient and more productive. UNIX "academic" handouts use those buzzwords too.

http://cosm.sfasu.edu/gharber/353/notes/Unix_philosophy.pdf

>Thompson and Richie's innovation was that speed can be traded off against utility and portability. Their reasoning was that it didn't matter if the machine performed somewhat slowly, if it could offer portability and productivity tools to offset the loss of efficiency.

>UNIX exploded the notion that machine efficiency was more important than human productivity.

While it's true that UNIX is slow, it's also not productive because of C.

>>W and X look like Y, and Y is associated with Z, therefore hating W and X means hating Z

W and X suck because of Y and Z.

> There's nothing wrong with C as it was originally 
> designed,
> ...

bullshite.

Since when is it acceptable for a language to incorporate
two entirely diverse concepts such as setf and cadr into the
same operator (=), the sole semantic distinction being that
if you mean cadr and not setf, you have to bracket your
variable with the characters that are used to represent
swearing in cartoons? Or do you have to do that if you mean
setf, not cadr? Sigh.

Wouldn't hurt to have an error handling hook, real memory
allocation (and garbage collection) routines, real data
types with machine independent sizes (and string data types
that don't barf if you have a NUL in them), reasonable
equality testing for all types of variables without having
to call some heinous library routine like strncmp,
and... and... and... Sheesh.

I've always loved the "elevator controller" paradigm,
because C is well suited to programming embedded controllers
and not much else. Not that I'd knowingly risk my life in
an elevator that was controlled by a program written in C,
mind you...


 No.888955>>888963

>>888912

Nigger, I use LISP and I can tell you're full of shit.


 No.888963

File (hide): bf692422f784512⋯.mp4 (949.63 KB, 480x480, 1:1, laughing bird.mp4) (h) (u) [play once] [loop]

>>888955

This is great.


 No.889135

File (hide): 686dbf191b0f5e7⋯.png (324.33 KB, 500x514, 250:257, 2018-hey-son-i-found-a-pic….png) (h) (u)

>>887124 (OP)

That crowd still exists and is probably bigger than ever. They simply don't have the majority anymore. Instead, the largest group is the consumers, who wouldn't have really had computers back then.


 No.889169

File (hide): f5d68d873f69235⋯.png (2.5 KB, 449x337, 449:337, OPvt220.png) (h) (u)

>>888723

1978 Autist -- those of incredible mental capacity, who could develop code in their heads, convert it to octal/hexadecimal, type it into the Microcomputer's monitor program, and it worked first-go. Got their first job at 15 when a University Professor noticed their prodigal abilities and introduced them to the MAINFRAME.

2018 Autist -- wacks it to fanart of cartoon characters, still living with their parent(s) at 26, and who favourite hobby is posting Nazi pix to Internet as pissing people off gets them excited.


 No.889235>>889339 >>889344

Dumb question: can't you just make FPGA Lisp machine?


 No.889246

>30 years ago

Not targeted at common people

>today

Targeted at common people


 No.889339>>889664

>>889235

Yes. It wont' necessarily be fast, though (compared to modern CPU's)


 No.889344>>889358

>>889235

In theory you can, in practice FPGA tools are bitch to work with, or so I heard.

LoperOS when


 No.889358>>889720

>>889344

FPGA tools are easy to work with


 No.889367

>>888954

>We're already paying more for x86 bloat

<hurr my bloat is acceptable because that other architecture used today is also bloated

Compelling argument, chap.

>Hardware can process the tag in parallel

Or better yet, it can eschew "processing the tag" altogether.

>Automatic storage management is superfluous

Fixed.

>Data use less storage due to compact representations

Less storage than what? Data in a program written in a garbage-collected (lol) dynamically-typed (lol) language executed on a conventional architecture?

>generic instructions

In other words, more complex and wasteful decoding logic.

>tag checking is done in hardware, not software.

How about: don't use a program that does "tag checking" if you care about performance.

>UNIX "academic" handouts use those buzzwords too.

<t.. tu quoque!

And I wasn't even defending UNIX, just pointing out your bullshit.

>W and X suck because of Y and Z.

That's not what you said :^)


 No.889532

Most i knew had a sega or nintendo and later had playstation and windows/mac shit


 No.889664

>>889339

Hello /g/

The 'original' Lisp machines would've -loved- FPGAs, as they needed to do things with registers and memory that normal computers weren't great at.


 No.889720

>>889358

As I was informed, reasonably priced FPGAs with open sdk are shitty and can't do anything useful.

Open sdks are usually in barely implemented state and can't do anything useful either.

Cool and powerful FPGAs are prohibitively expensive, have proprietary sdk that are prohibitively expensive, and said sdk only work in Windows.

It would be good to be wrong here though.


 No.889754>>889763 >>889777 >>890075 >>890239

File (hide): 442fa887556270f⋯.webm (3.98 MB, 448x252, 16:9, 1521913079896.webm) (h) (u) [play once] [loop]

>>887280

Muhellinals


 No.889763>>889765

File (hide): 0c7f9d01799439a⋯.gif (301.72 KB, 290x705, 58:141, 1467935694790.gif) (h) (u)

>>889754

>cringy as fuck, assume they are being ironic

>get to the end. they aren't being ironic

We need a war.


 No.889765>>889782

>>889763

>war

No. Concentration camps for rehabilitation.


 No.889777>>890037

File (hide): f9669cc08084193⋯.png (13.56 KB, 320x256, 5:4, Neuromancer.png) (h) (u)

>>889754

This fucking garbage takes up 4 megs. Meanwhile 30 years ago you could fit pic-related on an 880K floppy.


 No.889782

>>889765

>No. Concentration camps for rehabilitation.

Proven to be ineffective. The best solution is gas chambers.


 No.890037

File (hide): daed09360d719ad⋯.jpg (172.54 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, dae.jpg) (h) (u)

>>889777

What and where did it all went wrong?


 No.890075

>>887454

the chief reason why people get cuck'd by companies and salesmen is that they just don't know how a computer works on a basic level and they don't know how to use them.

>>889754

that video made me so very angry.

Also, if I ever meet the fag who said "anti-social" in the video, I would say: "I'd just like to interject for a moment. What you're referring to as anti-social, is in fact, asocial!"


 No.890215


 No.890239

>>889754

I might just kill myself after watching that.




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