/tech/ - Technology★

Cuckless fags are too retarded to write anything complex, so they hide it under the guise of false simplicity.

>>852297 (OP)

Well-commented source code is better than a gui.

>>852297 (OP)

github.com/vurtun/nuklear

This comes close.

>>852304

How does this compare to FLTK?

>>852305

I am not too familiar with FLTK, but I think FLTK is C++ and better predefined widgets.

>>852306

Can C++ be suckless? Or is it harmful in general?

Needs more whitespace, a few less clear deliminators between frames, and the close "x" needs to be much smaller.

>>852308

Suckless people think C++ is an abomination. Personally I don't really care about C vs C++, I just want a simple GUI framework and FLTK looks good enough.

>>852308

Suckless people tend to think life itself is harmful, and act accordingly to remedy it.

Suckless needs to be replaced by a better is better gimmick. Give me one good GUI library and we all use that.

>>852298

/thread

>>852298

t. kike/pajeet pushing the 'bloat and die' motto

This looks pretty slim.

http://toastytech.com/guis/indexgeos.html

>>852324

I would rather use ncurses, to be quite honest.

>>852310

I have yet to find a quicker/smaller framework than FLTK. It does have it's own issues but if you need a GUI right now then it's probably a safe bet.

I've used it on win/linux/mac without any setup issues unlike stuff like QT which is quite cancerous to use.

>>852336

Too bad it is C++, C base would make binding for other programming languages trivial.

>>852297 (OP)

I'd use it

xforms.

>>852304

>immediate mode

>no keyboard navigation

>no magnification

>no text to speech

Read this: https://developer.gnome.org/accessibility-devel-guide/stable/gad-ui-guidelines.html.en

This is why you don't use ">muh simplicity" gui frameworks.

>>852336

>unlike stuff like QT which is quite cancerous to use.

why tho?

>>852343

Just do the GUI shit in C++, then provide C calls + a header for the C code to use.

>>852425

>wanna use qt? here download 20gb of shit to get started!

no thanks

>>852435

Why not do the GUI shit in C so you don't have to bloat the whole pipeline through three different languages.

>>852440

What makes you think that C is fit for GUI programming?

>>852442

What makes you think it isn't?

>>852443

Name one GUI framework written in C.

>>852444

Xaw

Motif

Open Look (or whatever the toolkit is called)

GTK+

>>852446

>Xaw

>Motif

>Open Look

absolute trash

>GTK+

mostly trash

>>852447

... and what isn't trash according to your infinite wisdom?

>>852448

There isn't a single cross-platform GUI framework that doesn't suck complete ass. The only good ones are Microsofts and Apples.

On Linux its best to not even bother and go TUI or do some browser shit.

>>852452

No. I'm not baiting. Cross platform GUI sucks. You can't prove me wrong so you post some stupid meme picture.

>>852451

WPF? UWP? Haha. I don't know about apple's, I'm not a fag.

>>852433

It's dual licensed under the GPL which is fine. They are moving to web/js cancer though.

Suckless sucks because they write everything in C.

>>852451

All trash.

Qt is good for full-feature desktop apps

Nuklear is good for small projects and games (>>852304)

FLTK may be alright, never used it just looked through the code.

wxWidgets is old, dated, but still better than most of the sewage recommended in this thread.

Suckless is a terrible name. Good coding standards. GUI itself looks subpar. Not quite a full GUI kit like Qt, but Nuklear fills the custom-skinned, simple/compact OpenGL GUI niche better.

For the record GTK+ is pure cancer.

>>852451

>cross-platform GUI framework

Fuck cross platform GUI software. Each platform should have its own native GUI framework and their own software. Just like fuck GUI frameworks that try to make responsive design that scales with screen (so you can reuse it for mobile). That's why all GUI frameworks get bloated and shitty over time.

What if we start producing desktop processors with CSS and Javascript accelerators like ARM-compatibles already do and do all GUI in Electron?

Fucking hell, nuklear produces even worse spaghetti code than FLTK

Is there no GUI framework that follows KISS?

>>852463

>For the record GTK+ is pure cancer.

Please explain why.

>>852451

Node webkit, all GUI is HTML and CSS.

>>852435

Meh, I am really bad at C and C++. I would just want to use it from language like Go. Calling C code from Go is really easy, so someone could create a biding for it without much effort. C++ is a different story. Guess I just gonna git gut or use something more bloated like GTK+.

>>852474

>GTK+ is built on top of GLib

>object-oriented approach in C, instead of just using sane C++ featureset and restricting it with coding standards.

GTK+ is autistic cancer.

Qt is the realistic, pragmatic answer.

>>852485

>Qt

Look at this mess and tell me why he needed to use Qt here

https://github.com/grenadium/ShugoConsole

>>852485

QtQuick is shit JS mobile focus garbage. QtWidget is OK, but almost all development focused on QtQuick instead. And QtWidget only supports C++ well and Python somewhat. What if I want to use literally any other language? GTK+ supports a lot more bindings.

Tcl/Tk has been the sane/suckless choice for a decade now, especially now with native skinning.

>10 years ago, making simple GUI programs in 20 mins with VB6

>current_year+2

>experiment with JavaFX, want to fucking end it all, literally worse than doing UI for Android

>GTK+ shits itself with useless bloat like headerbars, popups and over-engineered CSS theming engine

>Qt is bloated as fuck

>all other frameworks are kinda dead or on life support

Fuck this gay Earth.

>>852496

What, exactly, is stopping anybody from making simple GUI programs in VB6 then?

>>852503

ms probably took doen the link

>>852503

I am not using Windows anymore.

>>852496

Just use electron XD

>>852297 (OP)

GUIs are inherently shit tbh, why not just have vi or emacs hotkeys as a universal interface and abandon gui on the principle of the inefficiency and code complexity they create?

Side note but a revival of DirectFB would be amazing.

>>852522

Normies need GUIs

If you write software for normies then you have to write GUIs

>>852533

They don't they just refuse to learn anything less intuitive than pointing at what they want with their fat fingers like a toddler.

Gas the infantile normies???

>>852538

This.

I like guis. Sometimes I don't want to type every single fucking line required to tell my computer "navigate to this folder and play this video on this display at this volume level" etc etc. I just want to have one hand hold up my face, and the other use the mouse. If a GUI makes my life suck less, it's suckless

>>852538

Daily reminder that command line interface is skeumorph for most normiest of possible normie interactions ever - giving a command in natural language. Faggots who joined teletype with computer unironically dreamed of what modern Bonetexa and Botniri do today.

>>852559

No you misunderstand so the equivalent wouldn't be typing out 4 commands or whatever it'd be pressing like Ctrl-F to open a file browser and like 4 or 3 or whatever to pick the nth file in the directory, or tab complete. Then using physical volume buttons and maybe Ctrl-Alt-Tab or something similar to move it to a different screen.

>>852562

They dreamed wrong as should be made clear by Bonetexa and Botniri. Also I'm not talking about cli I'm talking about hotkeys, typing out entire commands is obviously less efficient for many tasks that GUIs excel at, but hotkeys almost universally perform better.

>>852570

Furthermore, mouse arrow is a skeuomorph for finger/pointing device, pen and paintbrush (first mouse uses were for graphic applications). And even lightpen preceded mouse in those, but was too expensive to implement, therefore technology was thrown back until proper touch-sensitive displays appeared in mid-80's.

There is nothing wrong with pointing at things with your fingers on touch-sensitive display (would be even better if it could change it's texture) and there is nothing wrong with using a stylus (cultural skeuomorph for hand/finger) as a more precise instrument for handwriting and art.

>>852572

You're not even making a argument that touch interfaces are better you're just saying that originally they didn't exist people wanted them because they're intuitive and now they exist. A tablet & pen is the most expressive and efficient tool for art, that is objective. We should use the most efficient tool for any task, and for most tasks this would be a universal set of hotkeys.

>>852576

But onscreen keyboards are so slow...

>>852577

??? I hate on screen keyboards.

>>852578

Me too, but some things dont work with the mouse.

>>852579

I don't even know what's happening now, I'm arguing for hot-keys, on keyboards, not touch interfaces.

>a keyboard with little lcds in every keycap

Solves problem of memorizing hotkeys.

Provides an alternative to touch-interfaces but with physical tactile feedback.

>>852580

>I don't even know what's happening now

sorry

>I'm arguing for hot-keys, on keyboards, not touch interfaces.

I just don't want to touch icky buttons, while I can put paper over the mouse and retain precision.

>>852585

>he's autistic

Why didn't you say so? Could have saved all of us some trouble.

>>852443

The procedural paradigm doesn't suit GUIs. This is one of the few fields where OOP shines (other times it's mostly POO), because a GUI is basically an object containing state and links to child objects/widgets which also contain state.

>>852423

>thinking anyone gives a shit about those with visual impairments

Is there seriously NO good light cross-platform GUI framework?

>>852595

>good

no

>light

no

>cross-platform GUI framework

well their is electron )))

>>852599

иди нахуй)))

>мфв 8ч из эй борд фул ов рускиес

блэт

>>852656

The best GUI framework is HTML+CSS.

>>852659

Wrong. You need javascript, try the modern, rich youtube without it.

>>852656

Java Swing

>>852675

Javascript has nothing to do with HTML+CSS. Javascript is purely part of the background number crunching. HTML+CSS is the presentation layer. That's the GUI. That's the buttons that you click. Javascript is just the action taken when the button is clicked.

>>852297 (OP)

>GUI framework be suckless

Smalltalk is pretty suckless, and it has a GUI framework.

If you mean one for our freetard setups, no way. It's too much to ask, they all simply expand over time to consume all available resources like amoebae.

>>852705

then why cant is see the gui on youtube with javascript.enabled = false???

>>852705

>Javascript has nothing to do with HTML+CSS

That is simply not true anymore. These days modern frameworks are RENDERED with javascript as it manipulates the DOM with its own write queue. Many sites will simply not render at all without it.

Systems using the old way of site development are known as "server side rendering" sites.>>852705

>Javascript has nothing to do with HTML+CSS

>>852713

well that post got a bit fucked up

>>852709

>>852713

Pretty sure Youtube doesnt render because it is entirely a Single Page Application. Even if they would render the base with only CSS it still would not do shit because it requires JS to communicate with their API.

>>852708

smalltalk is the complete opposite of everything suckless stands for

>>852755

No it's not. It's the logical conclusion.

>>852713

>>852753

What you're describing is the perverse practice of using javascript to GENERATE HTML+CSS. The end result is still HTML+CSS. It does not change. It's just that your site is so craptacular that you have to use javascript as a middle man generate every single solitary piece of HTML+CSS on the fly after the script has loaded in rather than writing proper, correct, valid HTML yourself. A lot of these web frameworks that are used to make single page apps actually don't even have you writing valid correct HTML. They have you write fake, modified HTML, which they parse and run computations on and re-write as correct real and valid HTML before handing it off to the browser.

>>852760

No. They do not generate HTML. They directly manipulate the DOM (document object model). HTML is simply one particular way of interacting with the DOM.

>>852760

With web components like shadow dom this is only true in a historical sense.

You can still make a website without any JS but the trend from the browsers is that it will become mandatory to access certain browser features.

Either way HTML and CSS completely suck, they were designed for document presentation, not UI.

>>852472

>CSS and Javascript accelerators like ARM-compatibles already do

WHAT?

>>852496

>worse than doing UI for Android

almost anything is worse, because android did a really good job regarding the simplicity of UI development

>>852626

слышь тело! ты что, русских не любишь? не патриот что ли?

GUI was a mistake.

>>852845

GUI/The Thread

>>852297 (OP)

gnome is probably the least shit of all loonix UI's

>>852963

>gnome

>enabled auto lock screen

>wait

>gnome locks the screen

>can still access the menu while the screen is "locked"

lmao what a meme

>>852297 (OP)

>Can a GUI framework be suckless?

EFL.

>>852298

Suckless is the New Jersey school of Worse is Better. They point to crap implementations and tell you that something is harmful, but really they suck because they're done wrong.

>>852522

>Side note but a revival of DirectFB would be amazing.

I recently decided to try it out and it's a pretty cool novelty, although I'm not even sure if it's fucttional on my machine yet as some things don't seem to work. However, I can somewhat shitpost here normally with links -g at least like right now I wonder how DirectFB would be if it were still in active development.

How crazy would a grid-based GUI framework be? Kinda like Bootstrap does with their columns system, but full blown quadtree. It would make designing layouts trivial, but I dunno how would it look in practice

>viewport is, by default, a 12x12 grid. You can change this number, but 12 is pretty subdivisible so we will leave it at that

>By default, the grid cells won't always be square because nobody is going to run their programs in perfectly square windows, but you can set Square Mode to add automatic margins to fit the smallest dimension and pad the other one. You should also be allowed to choose in which cardinal direction you want it to align to.

>Padding is defined as X:Y units, where X is the amount of grid cells it should virtually subdivide itself (default 12) to calculate cell size, and Y is how many of those cells it should pad in that direction.

>You then define "layers" of this grid that will stack on top of each other. This is how you implement text and visual/interactive components. Kinda like image edition progra layers

>You can select cells spreadsheet style (ie. A1:D8, or A1:3,7) to create sections, where you get new subgrids inside. These subgrids divide the space again based on the area they get. You may specify smaller or bigger grid sizes than the parent grid sizes!

>Since grids are grids and they care fuck all about where they are put, you can consider them pluggable modules. To make the layout files more maintainable, you may define shit like the sidebar layout in another file, then include it in your main layout file as if it was a template

>Since most content is dynamic and not fixed in size or amount at compile time, you may specify a Stacking Mode for a layer, in which it will repeat a subarea as you define (by default, occidental writing style, from left to right and then from top to bottom) for each of the passed members

>Stacking Mode layers may also be set to be "boundless" (default HTML style), so they essentially keep on adding cells in the direction you specify if your data members overflow the grid, then add a scrollbar. By default, all Stacking Mode layers are vertical boundless.

>Stacking Mode layers may be divided in two or more, with an actual Stacking Mode layer and a "slave layer". You then define a default size for the master layer and a maximum size. The master layer will take space from the slave layers as needed.

>>852559

You're still navigating by clicking on shit. You can do the same without a GUI, like say browsing to your media directory in Midnight Commander. Or you can just set the CDPATH environment variable in your shell so you 'cd' directly to the right place, no matter what your $CWD is. And there's various shell tools like fasd and wdc that extend this kind of functionality.

Or you can simply set bookmarks in Midnight Commander or some console media player like cmus.

>>853222

Probably just a less bloated, faster version of X11. There are some things built on it still like WebOS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebOS

GUIs involve dealing with high resolution bitmapped displays, video output hardware, and humans. They suck by nature.

>>853761

Using a mouse and clicking means I don't have to move all my hand muscles individually when I'm tired. Sometimes it's just too much effort to type.

>>854329

Nah, you're just another pleb who needs a GUI.

>>854336

Typing is inefficient. It takes a minimum of 13 keystrokes to youtube-dl download a video, and that's if I already had the URL copied to my clipboard. It takes one click to open a link.

>>854337

>what are shortcuts?

>>854339

Still inefficient except now with the added bonus of leaving you fucked when you have to use another machine that doesn't happen to have all of your carefully curated alias on it.

>>854339

You can have shortcuts in ncurses programs too. Midnight Commander has them, and even lets you change the keybindings to whatever you want. All that without needing a nasty GUI.

>>852328

That image sums up exactly why I am opposed to IoT, driverless cars and a cashless economy.

>>854465

Imagine the rest of the world sucking as much as C programs. MIT was right again.

>>852444

libui

>>854527

dead

>>854481

Oh please C has nothing to do with it. The problem is that they put a god damn computer in a god damn water faucet. I don't give a shit WHAT language it was written in, the whole setup is perverse.

>>854543

>they put a god damn computer in a god damn water faucet

Bruce Schneier would probably not call it a faucet but "a computer which releases water if given conditions are met" or something similar. From his book "Data and Goliath":

>Last year, when my refrigerator broke, the serviceman replaced the computer that controls it. I realized that I had been thinking about the refrigerator backwards: it’s not a refrigerator with a computer, it’s a computer that keeps food cold. Just like that, everything is turning into a computer. Your phone is a computer that makes calls. Your car is a computer with wheels and an engine. Your oven is a computer that bakes lasagnas. Your camera is a computer that takes pictures. Even our pets and livestock are now regularly chipped; my cat is practically a computer that sleeps in the sun all day.

>>852297 (OP)

>suckless

https://suckless.org/

>harmful

http://harmful.cat-v.org/

>>854543

It doesn't matter if it's stupid. It's there and it doesn't work because some C program crashed. The world is going to become more and more like this. Cars are literally going to crash because of buggy C programs.

>>852453

>Cross platform GUI sucks.

It really does, though. Qt seems like a good solution - I believe Qt apps can run on Windows with little to no issues?

>>858212

>my cat is computer

how is this analogy supposed to make sense when tracking chip inside the pet does not determine or aid functionality of cat? Point taken tho. We'd better hope IoT tech companies are not researching on collective AI at the same time.

>>858303

What is your problem with wxWidget exactly?

>>852705

>>852659

>>852753

>>852760

I just spent the last 18 hours trying to get a simple blog up from scratch. Two Adderall IRs later, I wish to die in my sleep tonight. CSS is a cancer, WWW is a cancer, modern CMS are a cancer, and mobile-first is the purest of cancers. CSS is difficult enough, being an absolute brain haemorrhage of a system.

>Fuck awful style guide means 8/10ths of what could be markup, is now just scrolling forever

>box model

>inconsistent and unintuitive attributes

>positioning is a nightmare

>""""minifying"""""

>!important

>inline

CMS' are even worse. There's not a single CMS out there that is lightweight and serves static pages. They're fuckhuge bloat where I have to download some fag's bloated theme, which if I wanted to change I would need to learn the retarded special-snowflake system they've employed. I'm looking at you Hugo, you giant fucking turd.

>""""archetypes""""

And the worst part is, you can't make a good looking site (in modern context) without using any of these shitty tools. The bulk of the 18 hours was messing with CSS to make it look pretty. I got so fucking peeved two hours thru because my shit looked like some cryptography professor's .edu page. So I went back and added all the bells and whistles. Subtle rounding corners, color scheme touch-ups, shadows, gimmicks, etc. It looked pretty good, I gotta say. But then I went off to another """"modern"""" site and the urge for suicide, which has been kept dormant since elementary school, struck me like a brown fist in a sanction city. It couldn't even compare. All the sites were polished to shit, with preprocessors and frameworks. How can a whit- HTML/CSS developer even compete? So I decided fuck it and chose a relatively minimalistic site to steal from and make mine. After all the JS was cleaned out (holy fuck sites have a lot of JS), I was left with:

>230kb HTML file

>184kb CSS file

>"""""""""""minified""""""""""" so you can't reuse it easily

Not like you could even if it was normal. There's more than 10,000 lines and every fucking element has to have 20 separate classes AND inline styling. Cleaned it up and made a bash script to act as my CMS. 29 lines. It takes a plaintext file, makes a post, and updates the HTML + links. Fucking hell, I haven't started on mobile

>(((@media tags))))

>>858401

I feel your pain. Every once in a while I manage to write something interesting enough that I think, "Somebody might actually like to read this," and "I should write more often," and I go off in search of some lightweight blog framework that doesn't look like garbage.

Then the process of being slowly beaten down into malaise and despair begins. The "lightweight" blog frameworks are all node.js or golang monstrosities that pull in fat, nasty dependencies from npm or github. I never even got Hugo to work. I kept getting some cryptic error message.

Then, even if I can deal with the bloat, I have to either use some bloated, idiosyncratic template in the collection of "community" templates, or dig around in the nonsensical directory structure and config files of this shitty "blog engine" to figure out how to try to customize one of the default templates.

It's demoralizing. In the end, I usually delete the fat framework, delete what I wrote, and tell myself that nobody would have been interested anyway.

>>858414

that is why you just make a fucking wordpress and write your goddamn posts instead of being a faggot framework autismo. you will never get anything done that way. in the end it makes literally zero difference what framework you use.

>>858415

Wordpress is worse than any framework. And it's full of security holes.

>>858401

The web is deprecated. Go make a phlog instead.

gopher://sdf.org

>>858417

who gives a fuck it's a fucking blog nigger

>>858414

Just use html, faggot. A sh/awk/perl script can be used to make it easier.

>>858315

That cat reference in the last sentence is an obvious hyperbole (probably intended to drive the point home better). The rest of the paragraphy unfortunately isn't.

The book is a highly recommended read btw, it really shows how deep the botnet rabbit hole goes (actually it surely goes deeper already given that it was published four years ago).

>>858418

>The web is deprecated

Ironically enough, many (and soon possibly most) normies believe the same. Except in their case the direction is the opposite - they will abandon general web for a handful of services like fb/yt/twitter/amazon etc. They certainly won't bo back to bbs/gopher/irc/ftp/usenet.

>>852297 (OP)

imgui is pretty good, especially for prototyping and co.

https://github.com/ocornut/imgui

>>858418

Unironically, I want to. But, I'm in a position where I have to cater to normies' sensibilities (recruiters).

>>858315

I just think Qt is better. Why?

>>852298

I'd rather go cuckless than cucked.

>>852572

>There is nothing wrong with pointing at things with your fingers on touch-sensitive display

what's a "gorilla arm" you massive faggot

>>852626

>english in cyrillic

why

>>853006

KDE's lock screen otoh let's you manipulate the currently running media player. Which kind of defeats its whole purpose when one locks screen to hide his comfy natsoc playlist from onlookers.