/strek/ - Star Trek ★

>>13429

i should also add that TOS being soft-canon is almost entirely due to issues of visual canonicity and some technology quibbles. At any rate, all of this is just one anon's opinion. You'll have to ask specific questions if you want a clearer answer as to consensus opinion of /strek/ because everyone who posts is going to have a somewhat different take about Trek overall (barring nuTrek and STD i'd hope)

>>13429

>>13431

>Are you working on a fan project or just want to know what to watch?

It's a little bit of both. I'm surprised TOS would be considered soft canon, but your reasoning for it being so appears sound. It's difficult to ask for specifics except for issues which are well-known for their disregard for canon and good storytelling. The Pah-wraith ending arc in DS9, the episode in VOY where Janeway and Paris turn into lizards and have babies, and quite a few problems with ENT, and it's difficult to list all of them. I suppose the Temporal Cold War is a big one.

>>13444

Yeah, i felt like I had to walk the TOS designation back almost immediately after posting that. :) I'm bound to get flamed because it's hard not to read that as a slight on TOS, but it shouldn't be taken that way. It's just that because of the time it was made and the fact that it was the first series, a lot of shit is gonna be wonky and you can absolutely see how they gradually figured it out as the franchise progressed. The look of the Klingons is a perfect example. Strictly speaking, canonicity shouldn't be used as a measure of quality, although it all probably lines-up pretty close for most fans.

As far as timeline hijinks, i personally don't count most temporal bullshit stories in my head canon. They're fun asides, but they just tend to confuse an already complicated record of events. So, with that there's a ton of episodes that are canon dumpster fires but good quality and shouldn't be skipped.

Is the eugenics war taking place in the 90's still canon, and if so what about that Voyager episode where they travel to the 90's?

>>13426 (OP)

I don't buy the idea of whole shows being canon or noncanon. Right from the start in TOS and through into DS9 and even voyager, the quality of individual episodes has been hit or miss, with some episodes being great and some being awful. Even VOY had a few good episodes. STD is appropriately named though and the whole this is aids

Rather than looking at series as a whole, I prefer to deal with each episode independently. Thus I can enjoy good DS 9 while ignoring the ferengi episodes or enjoying good thought provoking TNG stuff while ignoring shit that was clogging up the first few seasons.

>>13459

Ferengi were good when they were being Ferengi, but the feminism episodes can go.

>>13455

>Is the eugenics war taking place in the 90's still canon,

yes, I think it's referenced in Into Darkness

>and if so what about that Voyager episode where they travel to the 90's?

There's novels and fanon that deal with this but I think the real reason is not hard to figure out. And honestly wouldn't it be weird as hell for them to travel back into an unrecognizable 20th century? I don't even care about this one. Then again if we never talk about it again how canon is it really..

>>13455

Because there can be a major war and the entire planet does not have to be devastated. The Eugenics Wars were mostly in India/Pakistan and the Middle East. That is where Khan was, right? So why would L.A. or Detroit be devastated because of some bullshit in Asia/Middle East? Lol, no one cares that is why.

>>13426 (OP)

>>13429

I wouldn't say that TOS/TAS are soft canon per se; rather I think they are comfortably part of their own canon which follow through to the end of the TMP era. TNG+ is it's own thing that borrows broad swaths from TOS/TAS/TMP but aren't exactly 1:1 since they have their own aesthetic and philosophy that is somewhat different from the earlier stuff. It's also a comfortable way to explain the massive power level drop from Kirk era to Picard. The other alternative is that time travel from various episodes are changing things as the respective series progress, or the Temporal Cold War as fine points of detail change as pro-Earth vs anti-Earth forces fight each other eternally. The one thing that I would sort of like to peg as soft canon overall is Voyager, not so much from an overall watchability standpoint (although it is a problem) but rather the wildly inconsistent shit that occur there, but then the time travel fuckery can sort of wink away some of the retarded shit that happened there.

>>13515

The thing that concerned me the most about that episode is just how quickly they talked Quark into undergoing full body surgery.

>>13515

>>13525

The only reason this isn't very well accepted in our world is because once you start chopping up someone's genitals and rearranging them, you CAN'T GO BACK. It wouldn't be controversial for a man to beam his dick off, if he could just have it beamed right back on and work just as good as before.

Anyway, if you ask me, I would say that ENT -> VOY and all the TOS and TNG movies are canon to the "original" Star Trek. The JJ movies are a hard reboot of the series, while I suspect STD to be more of a soft reboot.

>>13459

Because anything related to the Grand Nagus, quarks mother or Quark crossdressing is unwatchably awful. And that is nearly all the ferengi episodes right there.

>>13426 (OP)

The JJ movies and STD are not canon and I will include the very last episode of Enterprise in that list. Trip is still alive dammit.

>>13581

>Trip is still alive dammit.

Still alive some 200 years after the events of Enterprise? Still alive during the Dominion War?

>>13582

I am saying that trip did not die in the last episode of Enterprise and lived out his normal human life with T'Pol as his wife.

>>13588

Pity, I like the idea of Trip the Eternal.

>>13616

Porthos is allegedly still alive after 100 years according to JewJewTrek.

>>13625

>according to JewJewTrek.

>>13426 (OP)

Any TNG episode involving the Traveller and Wesley Crusher should be disregarded, as well as the one episode where Barclay gets mindjacked by a super advanced species who has him miraculously advance Federation technology by several thousand years so they could go to the other end of the universe and learn a bunch of stuff from an impossibly advanced species who just send them back to where they were when the episode started. That sort of shit has so many huge implications and potential to utterly change the entire face of Trek that they went out of their way to conveniently forget or outright deny it ever happened. Picard and crew were armed with forbidden knowledge from a species more advanced than anything ever shown in any Trek.. They were pretty much forced to ignore that little detail.

>>13630

on the one hand, i like to overcomplicate things by distinguishing between hard-canon and soft-canon, where we can say that certain episodes, films, or even series are canon, but elements within them are not. On the other hand, maybe it's easier just to throw-out entire episodes or films despite some of it being salvageable. I agree the shit you mentioned was shit, but I could accept the general concept of Wesley leaving everybody and everything and going on a not gay journey of self-discovery with a soft-spoken, sensitive, older single guy. That basic concept fits the character of Wesley perfectly, but you're right… once the writers get into it, they fuck it up with implications.

>>13632

I think it was ultimately a good call for Wesley to turn into a fuck-up who flunked out of Starfleet and decided to go pursue some independent study. In a grander sense, it could be seen as a message that not everybody is right for Starfleet, even if they are genius wunderkinds. Still needs to throw out the "energy, matter, space, and thought are all the same thing!" revelation, because that's just.. so, so awful and stupid. Likewise, it's for the best if Voyager doesn't have a ton of data and scans and knowledge handed to them by a species so advanced that they could turn Barclay into a being capable of advancing the ship beyond warp era technology.

>>13643

A place of rigorous discipline and a military hierarchy is most definitely NOT the place for geniuses, wunderkinds or otherwise. I saw that whole thing as a metaphor for "Wesley is too smart for college".

>>13630

>one episode where Barclay gets mindjacked by a super advanced species who has him miraculously advance Federation technology by several thousand years

What episode did that happen in?

>>13741

>What episode did that happen in?

The Nth Degree, season 4.

Enough with the VOY hate, we've gone through 20 years of hell and it's no longer time for elitism over details.

>>13811

I'm not being a snob

I'M STILL MAD

>>13457

>I can enjoy good DS 9 while ignoring the ferengi episodes

<ignoring the Magnificent Ferengi

<ignoring the Quark and Grilka episodes

Changelings aren't welcome here.

>>16104

I'd say no by default, because Nemesis is NOT FUCKING CANON

>>16105

A far more substantial problem, even given the shittyness of Nemesis, is that this comic was made to set up JJ's shitfest.

>>16104

>>16105

I can't even be mad or sad that Data "died" because it just didn't happen. It might as well have been Spiner reprising his role for an SNL skit or a DVD special feature or a fan script reading at a convention. There's no reason to care.

Also:

>kill Data so Spiner doesn't have to play him anymore

>clumsily foreshadow the revelation that he's not actually dead

>never make any more TNG movies so neither of those things matter anyway

brilliant

The last episode of ENT is not canon to me and fuck fat Riker.

>>16335

>It's not like the character as created by Spiner is difficult to imitate

I completely disagree.

Are there sexbots in Star Trek after TOS or did the holodeck make them redundant?