/pnd/ - Politics, News, Debate

Gold standard was removed long time ago. I dont understand how it has any value in these times and ages. Only if some currency was backed by gold it would have a value. But now its just a shiny metal piece. Which can jump up and down in price like any other metal. Old habits die hard.

https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/12715/why-did-us-abandon-gold-standard

When Shit hit the fan in Argentina decades ago. No one fucking traded with gold. Guess what they traded with? Exchange of services. Thats right they fucking traded with services and items. Not fucking gold. In real world when shit goes down the true value is in the practical items and what YOU can create and have give value to others.

People must live in some kind of fucking fantasy world these days. The media pushes for it even more hyping the fantasy of metals as if they have some value when shit goes down. Look at modern countries and what happened when their economies went to hell for the reality.

>>22170

Probably related, but in Brazil, especially in the south and southeast regions (both containing the largest concentration of white brazillians, descendants of Germans and Italians) there is a similar occurrence, with a "gold rush" of some sorts. But in this case, the jews are already employing literal niggers as "gold appraisers", deceiving people into thinking that their gold have less market value than it truly has, and buying it for cheap.

I don't know the causes and repercussions of it, but anons from the whole world must take notice that jews are mobilizing in Brazil to buy lots of gold from non jews, while trying to deceive people into lowering the price of their gold when selling it.

>>22175

>specie is fiat

You're brain damaged.

>>22226

Enjoy hustling for the kike/faggots. It literally could not BE MORE CLEAR what is happening in the example…SLAVE. There is nothing valuable at all about Gold other than that was the available metal in the region that they started with, silver as well as afghanistan had large silver mines where people who are just as big of a faggot as you are TRADED THE ONLY THING OF VALUE…their life, for fucking metal.

You all are fucking retards.

>>22227

>has no idea what words mean

>just repeats nonsense that only jews say

Okay, commit suicide. You're literally insane. Everything you said and believe is a lie.

>>22232

he isnt wrong, gold really is just like any other metal and from a rational stand point it doesnt make sense that it is so highly valued now and also throughout history. i think the excuse they used for the fact that it was highly valued in history is because it was scarce and didnt rust?

>>22175

your argument that labour is more valuable than gold is gay. everything that humans prescribe value to is inderterminate. all value is subjective to the individual and is dependant on the culture of your society.

if you as an individual value… lets say you value something dumb like twirly straws and the rest of your society as a whole values straight straws, no matter how many twirly straws you collect you wont be able to trade them for jack shit because noone else in your society will accept them as a form of currency.

i suppose all currency's are really just bullshit people use to give universal value to intagible things like labour and art and other resources. it also allows one to create a pile of value that you can use to acquire goods or services in the future without worrying about whether or not youll have something the guy your trying to barter with wants.

in conclusion from my dumbfuck brain, currency is good because many benefits and streamlined transaction process allowing greater human shit. Also currency bad because it is highly dependant on individual mindset and therefore easily vulnerable to manipuation from jews.

I wonder if the fact that noone really bargains anymore and tries to haggle is the reason jews are able to manipulate everything so easily, i dont think ive ever bargained over the price of something ive purchased, its all been set in stone.

>>22227

>>22175

fiat my ass. Gold not only has properties that make it viable as a trading asset (it's scarse, fungible, etc.) but it has the backing of history itself. Of course nothing has value unless we all agree on it, excepting obvious things like food, water and labour, to some extent, but the backing of thousands and thousands of years of use and the fact that true economic powers tend to hoard gold as a hard asset makes it as valuable as it can be.

>>22198

>Only if some currency was backed by gold it would have a value. But now its just a shiny metal piece. Which can jump up and down in price like any other metal. Old habits die hard.

wrong in so many levels. Most civilizations have crumbled due to lack of real gold or silver to trade with.

>The media pushes for it even more hyping the fantasy of metals

no they don't. they push the fantasy of fiat money, if anything.

For the argentinean examples: The people that went back to exchanging services was the impoverished middle and lower class that didn't have any wealth preserved whatsoever. People that did have wealth to preserve bought dollars since its value did not go down like the peso. There was no need for gold. Gold will be needed when the petrodollar goes to hell, which is what is happening right now. Value of gold has been going up steady since june last year. This doesn't mean that gold has a higher value now, but the dollar is losing purchasing power due to a not-spoken-about inflation thanks to the fed's QE which is incidentally pumping up stock prices since banks are funnelling most of the QE currency into the markets. This is what trump's admin likes to boast about so much. "the markets are doing great". Indeed, at the cost of inflation.

You people shilling against gold are either misinformed or just plain dumb.

>>22255

*scarce

>>22259

If you're going to split hairs over the merits of metal, then might I say that copper is in fact, best. Let's review:

1) Same specie as gold

2) Still scarce enough prevent inflation

3) Abundant enough that people are actually willing to turn it into manufactured goods

4) Better electrical conductor than gold or silver

Silver and gold only beat out copper by their scarcities and resistance to tarnish, and by silver's antibacterial properties

>limits on anonymous purchases of precious metals

Wouldn't want to have the goyim hold onto precious metals without knowing where it could be for future confiscation, now would we

>>22175

>screencapping your own posts

Unlike fiat currency, you can't print more gold. That is the whole point to having it as a currency and why it doesn't drop in value.

>>22227

My man, I applaud your desire to be logical and think for yourself but you're wrong. Gold has value as a store of value. that is indeed useful as a tool.

Because if I want to buy 10% of a cow and don't happen to have 3 chickens to trade, just once whole sword, I can't sell 5% of a sword to pay for it.

I must therefore be able to sell my sword for something that will store that value.

Number 1 property of money is

STORING VALUE - ACCEPTABILITY

Then I must be able to pay for the steaks (10% of a cow) out of the money I got for my sword and keep the rest of the money I got for my sword that's property number 2 of money.

DIVISIBILITY

But then I will leave and go home and the money can't weight a ton since i'm travelling so it must be

PORTABLE

and I don't want the money i got for the sword that's left over after buying the steaks to become worthless while I'm bbqing with my buds for a month otherwise i've lost a whole sword for 10% of a cow so the money must not rot away so money must be

DURABLE

Also I don't want my idiot cousin to just make a bunch of fake money and go buy all the left over chickens so my money must be hard to counterfeit it must have

LIMITED SUPPLY

and finally I want my money to be accepted even when i take my boat to travel overseas where I don't speak the language and yet still need to eat, it must be

UNIFORM

Gold is rare (LIMITED SUPPLY), it is nearly indestructible (DURABLE), it is accepted world wide (ACCEPTABILITY), It can be cut with an iron axe if need be (DIVISIBLE), all gold is the same (UNIFORM) and it can easily be carried in a pouch (PORTABLE).

That is why gold is accepted. Gold is not less valuable than labor, it is labor remote in time. It's the promise of labor. A man can use gold to buy labor because the laborer can use that same gold to buy labor in turn. It's labor for labor with a go between.

it's

Labor <-> Gold <-> Labor which is really

Labor <-> Labor

>>22290

>>22259

Platinum and platinum group elements would be objectively the best for a number of reasons. Not only do they have important uses as chemical catalysts and hardened machine parts but they are firmly scarce.

>>22306

imagine a placeholder for time.

a blockchain on life, if you will.

I bet people would be really choosy about how they spent their money if it was directly tied to their time. things like inflation couldn't exist as the only way to put more coin into the market is by creating more life. Less life = more value for each coin and more value for each person.

How do you make coin valuable? Tie it to the only thing of value.

>>22310

It sounds like a poetic idea but there isn't very much thought put into your idea of life-based coin.

>>22332

It was taken because it is easy to process on top of the previously mentioned qualities, since gold is fairly soft and easily malleable. It's why it was valued even in the Americas before colonialisation. It's also a shiny and nicely coloured metal, it may seem a bit simplistic to put it this way but those simple features also make it desirable for jewelry. So no, gold was generally recognised by default as being valuable, it wasn't necessary to have Jews shill the idea that gold is valuable. And due to this independent recognition of its value, it served the function of trade between different civilisations and states. Hardened iron was used by Sparta for trade because it could easily be controlled internally. Because Sparta didn't trade very much with other states, they didn't need to have something recognised by other states.

>>22299

By your reasoning anything we choose has a store of value. And that is applauded. We could literally chose anything we could trade and control. Grains of rice. Peanuts. You know I am being sarcastic at this point. Let’s make it logical for the USA, silver or nickel. It doesn’t have to have some famous properties. It simply has to substitute for a mans labor. Like Spartans had plentiful iron which would cost a man labor to mine so in this way it was a store of value. It can’t be FUCKING FABRICATED at the push of a button like e-currency (I know these faggots arguments about crypto but they are WRONG it is totally controlled 100% and NOT BY THEM). You are all setting yourselves up for the biggest slave scam there has ever been on the planet.

WILL YOU FUCKERS AT LEAST LOOK AT THE LONG TERM IMPLICATIONS OF ALLOWING THIS TYPE OF CONTROL?

>>22335

shiny?

Pretty?

Fine. Does that make it something worth being a slave forever for? It is like you are stuck on the tit and you won’t let go. But your kike mother can’t drag you around from place to place with you attached to her tit forever at some point you will need to walk and get up and move around (be a man in your own right).

>>22338

>Does that make it something worth being a slave forever for?

What someone will use as currency is independent of what slaves do or have done to them. If someone is ready to give up something they value in exchange for a few shiny rocks, that makes it possible to get something by giving a few of those shiny rocks and it also makes it possible to do the opposite. Since they might value the shiny rocks but they might also be willing to give some of them up in exchange for an object with greater or equal value.

>>22339

Nope, regulated currency is slavery. If we could use any measure we desired for exchange then we would have real freedom. But the regulation of currency, and the more regulation the more slavery, means that our labor IS CONTROLLED. If you control a mans labor you control his life. He is your slave.

>>22255

>Gold not only has properties that make it viable as a trading asset (it's scarce, fungible, etc.)

Should that really make it as viable as is often claimed, though? It seems clearly superior to something like diamonds, but compared to stuff like refined petroleum and steel or aluminum, gold is pretty superfluous. You're right about the history thing and really, that's where it derives most of value – legacy marketing.

"Fiat" also just means "let it be so" or "by decree". If someone makes holly sticks or iron disks the currency, they would be "fiat" currency. It's whatever is declared to be legal tender.

>>22175

Gold has always maintained value throughout human history which means it is always traded and always accepted. The reason why can be debated but its just a fact of human history, similar to gold, diamonds, oil and weaponry. It always maintains value because there have always been people around the world willing to buy/barter/hoard it.

That said, gold is not really useful to plebs because the value is so high. Are you going to trade a gold bar for a gun? If you did, you'd be getting ripped off big time. So silver is a much better asset to retain wealth for plebs and will be much easier to barter with.

>>22335

Jews desire gold because they are greedy, that's all there is to it. If gold was all in Jewish hands, they'd love that, it would be a bad day for us. But that's not the case. Right now there are many things of intrinsic value: ownership of property, arms/ammo, skills, food storage, water storage or access to clean water, oil, coal, silver/gold, tools, medical supplies, sanitation equipment/supplies, books…. all this stuff is also wealth that can be accumulated and used to sell or trade. The fact is the Jews want all this stuff (including gold) in the hands of their international banking cartel.

>>22370

No, this is not true, unless you consider that all of history is written by the kikes. All of human history is much longer than the time period that the parasites have been feeding on the death of this planet. We have one shot at a golden age before things go totally tits up for the reset of the Ages…lets make it count by refusing to be slaves to parasites.

Did you know that after the Comstock Lode was discovered there was a major battle in the whole USA power structure over whether or not to use silver as the reserve currency…the civil war was never fought over niggers, that is a retarded premise, they aren’t even GOOD for anything…it was fought over the desire to use silver as a reserve currency for the USD. Most people do not know the TRUE history of the US Civil war. But even using silver would have skirted the issue. The issue is about WHO CONTROLS what is currency, not about the currency itself. It is the control <<<that is the real problem.

>>22375

I did not know that about the civil war, I knew it wasn't really fought over slave ownership, but I did not know the full fiscal reasons behind the war. That is a very good point, it does depend who controls the currency. That's why our Founding Fathers rejected central banks and warned us about their criminality.

>>22377

Exactly. It looks like they have chased the ‘best slaves on the planet’ due to their productivity all over the entire globe and the USA is our last stand. Productivity ranks on the planet are thus: USA is the most productive nation on the planet. Europe is second. All other nations fall in underneath that and most by a significant margin below it. So it is here that the slaves ‘decide’ to make their stand and kill the parasites wherever we find them (not with the torture and the gruesome death that they utilize with us but with two to the head and burn the body; do not bury them; also it is fine by me if Israel needs to be the dumping ground and we nuke it afterwards; the bodies have to be burnt up completely though to prevent any ‘continuance’ on the planet; there is a reason why they fear this [holocaust] so much)…anyway…here we make our stand and ENSURE A FUTURE FOR WHITE CHILDREN, or not…the choice is and always has been up to us.

>>22259

>Silver is better.

the premium to value ratio on silver bars are higher than gold if bought online plus gold prices have increased since 2016

>>22386

Getting a nation like Russia, China or Iran to nuke Israel would take a very risky gambit on behalf of the USA, likely starting another major war to push their buttons to take on the real enemies lobbying these wars. It would be very risky because of the unintended consequences or blowback… such as painting a target on our back as well.

Its food for thought, worthy thinking about but pulling it off? 50/50 chance with a whole lot of chaos.

>>22374

>>22375

So how about setting land as the defining currency and a constitutional right for a certain % high, a certain % of low quality or resource rich land to go unclaimed and unmolested, a certain % to be owned by government, a certain % or # by any individual, a certain % or # by any family (we have genetic testing at this point), a certain % or # by an group, and a certain % or # by any corporation.

Give land an exchange rate and analytical tools for determining "resources" of less obvious form. Improve the ecology of a place and raise its value. Cultivate the land, build infrastructure, and improve its value.

The more land one owns, the less stock they can own in any individual corporation as their land ownership goes towards the land ownership total of the corporation. This way, either you're invested in a corporation and landless (or living on corporate owned land) or you own land and are rather self-sufficient and detached from the corporate world. Employees also contribute towards land ownership of a company. So either you're a rootless son of a bitch working corporate, or you own land. Contractors will count the same, and you would find it difficult to get work from the maximum capacity corporations if you owned land or too much of it. This would push the self-sufficient and land owning to smaller or growing businesses for work. Corporations would turn into insect hives, run by insects. This would at least make them efficient, and would keep them culturally distinct enough that they are separated out and considered "outsider" to the "homegrown" and land owning citizens – thus preserving the values of freemen by aesthetically(?) being repugnant to more organic people, thus repelling one from the other. Many people still have to work though, so either you own a business and land and employee young own-nothings (or old), or you work in very small (employee count) businesses and everyone owns land.

This system would backfire by creating many rich and landless corporate insects that have a void inside of them they seek to fill. They would fuck shit up and being a radioactive element. The only way to combat this is to assure that big corporations aren't a thing for the most part, and that corporations have to have a "draw" that keeps employees there, by having smaller businesses be the "draw" by their very nature and freedom, or perhaps something else.

>>22397

Before we could make any kind of real meaningful reforms we would have to abolish the Federal Reserve (like we have done to the other two previous central banks in the US). Then we would have to RICO their wealth accumulation and monopolies. This takes powerful political change, you would not be able to do this without voting out ALL incumbents and putting in the right people for the job. It is worthy to think about and plan these reforms ahead of time, but until we get rid of the current status quo nothing will really change.

>>22342

Except that the iron was regulated by Sparta so taking that as an example is pretty retarded. Sure, they had their own conquered slaves, but if regulation of one's currency is the criterion on which you base whether one is a slave or not then on that basis they too were slaves. So your entire argument is just competing slave-owners bickering over whose slaves are the most happy.

>"b-but it's not the jews"

Does it really matter to a slave who he is held by? This to me seems like you just trying to use the commie argument of "if we just eliminated money then we would be free" with you trying to paint this in arguments you yourself do not believe in.

>>22344

There are plenty of technological applications for gold, in fact those applications are still growing such as use in active soldering for composite ceramics. It also continues to hold its value for its appearance. You say it holds most of its value through legacy marketing but that is a mere assumption on your behalf.

>>22399

Most hours worked has nothing to do with productivity. I have people who work for me who do a lot of hourly work who are not productive. Productivity is value garnered from Human Resources. Mexico is laughable in terms of value…I am sure those spicniggers work a lot though now that the whip is being cracked over their heads as well. Also…They are LYING about immigration and the USA has doubled its population in the last 10 years of subhuman foreign trash…none of which works or does anything but parasite on Ethnic European Americans.

>>22424

I think you are missing my points.

Iron was readily available in Sparta. People could make their own currency. You are not a slave when you have choices or can barter your own time and use it as you please. Look at the examples of ANYONE who went off res and decided to have a different standard than the parasitic kikes…they all were murdered…every one of them a great man…JFK, etc…all of them recognized the problem and understood who the real culprits were and why it was a problem.

>>22397

8% federal land, 8% state land, 8% city land, 24% protected lands, 200 acres per person, 2800 acres per family including parents, siblings, wedded spouse and children, but you are alloted a raise in limit of 200 acres if married (both ways); but you don't get even more capacity for land if you marry multiple women or some shit; and as well every person has a right to at least 100 acres whether their family owns more or not; 9600 acres per extend family including now grandparents, first cousins, aunts, uncles, and grandchildren, 2000 acres for a "common business" and 10,000 acres for a corporation.

>>22401

You need to have a plan to show others to get them to coordinate their efforts with you. You're working from the wrong end of the donkey.

>>22432

Oh and only 12% of land can be common business owned, and 12% of land corporate owned. If an individual owns more than a certain threshold of land, that amount is contributed to the total a business or corporation owns. Thus every 10 acres of land owned contributes that much towards the business' capacity. There should probably be a "free trade business" which has up to 200 acres and is easiest to operate.

>>22437

Actually that seems too high. 16% total to businesses makes more sense. Maybe the government owned land is too much as well – 5% each.

>>22432

>>22437

Having a set flat value for a limit to hold for individuals is perfectly managable but when it comes to businesses and corporations that turns into a different matter. Farmland is highly land-intensive, especially for grazing animals, while an office building for an accounting company demands fuck-all because you can easily just stack office space on multiple floors. For companies it would make more sense to have it on a case-by-case basis to avoid the issue of people being obligated legally to rent land from low-intensity businesses. Because you are going to come across the issue of a limit incentivising low land-intensity businesses intentionally owning more land than they need, which would give them control over the high land-intensity businesses. That could end up being a very plausible vector of attack by which one might grab power.

>>22446

>>22432 (You)

A case-by-case basis is an attack vector. The "attack vector" you're talking about isn't even the real one. Here's the real one:

Individuals of a family or collaboraters can each own a company of 1 and work together towards some end. Thus a family of farmers can own 4000+ acres as multiple businesses, and a shit ton of "corporations" can own 999999999 acres.

The business/individual distinction is the real issue, and I think perhaps switching to a "400 acres for a business, 600 acres for a corporation" model makes more sense. A business and corporation would be an extension of an individual but separate enough that it has its own liabilities, regulations etc. Going from individual to business engenders some sort of "constitutional" change, and from business to corporation. So for something like a common brand, you'd have multiple "corporates" contributing. I'd minimize the disassociation of individual from business and corporation, and have it be just a small extension of individual rights and just a bit of a separate entity.

>>22446

>>22453 (You)

What I don't know is why non-individual (non-human) entities like a business should exist at all. If that can be well-figured out I think the problem would be a lot clearer. A lot of what a business does can be done by contract between individuals.

>>22465

It's due to the issue who bears responsibility, which is what ownership boils down to. Because people tend to forget the costs that come with ownership and simply concentrate on how ownership means you can do anything you want with the item you own. Due to one of the goals of a businessman being the creation a self-sustaining unit (ie. the business doesn't instantly collapse when the owner decides to concentrate on something completely different like a second enterprise), you come across the issue that the owner might end up bearing costs that his self-sustaining unit caused. The self-sutaining unit will be built by the owner in such a manner that it can expand on its own to remain competitive, as such there are decisions made by others on his behalf but that are not explicitly his own. By having a company as a person, fault can be established as being the company's fault and not the owner's, because a non-person entity can't have fault and the owner was not directly the cause of the issue unless it was due to his intervention. So in the case of no clear fault bearer being established, the company may face punishment instead of desperately trying to find the first employee they can push the blame on or just defaulting to the owner always being wrong.

>If that can be well-figured out I think the problem would be a lot clearer

Well clarity is the whole reason why companies can have personhood status. Both in the case of taxation and in the case of legal disputes.

>>22492

>>22492

I get that they want a self-sustaining unit that they can step away from and treat as a separate entity, but why should it be so. It seems rather dangerous and should be minimalized.

Assuming a world without such separate entities or very specific and localized in its separation, what do we get?

What business is necessary and what is derivative? I think looking at all the possibilities of a "free tradesman" model first would be beneficial. I would like to understand more.

Couldn't things work fine with a free labor market and maybe some organizations to help facilitate things?

>>22492

>>22492

As for food production… vertical agriculture should be quite viable. Leasing a warehouse and having an indoor vertical aquaponic vege and fish/seafood facility in the northern half of the country is not out of the question at all.

>>22532

Because the ability to create a self-sustaining unit is an important incentive for people to start their own company. If they have to work hard even after retiring age then why even bother taking a huge gamble at the start of their business? The businessman has to take on large amounts of debt (whether it's from a bank or it's a fund for business startups) due to machinery being incredibly expensive and he has to work fairly hard in the first couple of years to ensure it stays afloat instead of collapsing and then sinking him even deeper into debt with no way of repaying. While in this starting phase, you work self-employed for yourself for fairly long times, possibly longer than your employees, and even on holidays. An employee doesn't have to care for the business very much after work hours, he shows up, works the agreed amount and gets his paycheck. It could sink for all he cares and if he wants to, he can always find work elsewhere. While the employer still remains in debt, oftentimes having to take up additional debt to pay his employees when the business is going in minus. The employee's pay doesn't change with the situation of the company, he gets paid the contractually agreed upon amount and if he doesn't get paid then he is legally entitled to just leave and he can go to court demanding payment. And once the self-sustaining unit is established, the owner can simply leave it at that and hope it doesn't sink in his lifetime. Or he could declare his self-sustaining unit as a person and then try to make another self-sustaining unit. The initial self-sustaining unit will take over the task of repaying the still existing debt while he works on the other business. If the first business sinks, the debt sinks along with it without dragging the owner down and now the owner still has the second business which he was working on while the first was granting him a steady stream of income. And that first business could have collapsed for a multitude of different reasons such as the development of new technologies that make the products the first business made obsolete.

>Assuming a world without such separate entities or very specific and localized in its separation, what do we get?

You get less business owners because the business owner is unable to escape his debt. Even if the government says the bank is obligated to write away all this debt, the owner is still going to face the consequences of bankrupcy. He will no longer be able to get a loan: he tried, failed and now he has his financial situation permanently tarnished. Because the debt of the first company transfers back to him, it remains as an anchor around his neck as he desperately tries to keep the second afloat as well. The second company might be incredibly successful but because of the failures of the first company, the debt of the first has snowballed out of control and brings the second down as well.

>Couldn't things work fine with a free labor market and maybe some organizations to help facilitate things?

You have to define free labor market in this case. Simply saying "some organisations facilitate things" doesn't help much either.

>>22552

Nothing that can sustain you can be grown vertically. It is all lettuce and shit. It takes soil and hard work to grow food, unless you are into those McDonalds shit burgers (making meat from human shit; McDonalds was the majority investor in the research I believe). If you don’t want to eat that type of manufactured product then options are rather limited in terms of growing vertically. Look at the images sometime, you will see that it is all broadleafed greens. I would rather not live on a diet of broadleafed greens and humans shit burgers.

If you are interested in sustainable gardening these are the staple crops.

You always see people selling ‘seed vaults’ that are mostly worthless in terms of survival. THESE are the crops for survival. Those ‘seed vault’ crops are superflouous.

Corn

Sweet potatoes

Potatoes

Winter Squash

Pumpkins

Carrots

Beets

Sunflowers (fat)

Grains

Rice

Wheat

Quinoa

Etc etc

All these things which could actually sustain a person take space and lots of it. They take soil and lots of it. It takes a tremendous amount of food to sustain a family or even an individual. It is not just the food that you put in your pie hole either, there is a lot of ‘waste’ although nothing is really wasted if you do it right.

Just an FYI…each individual should have a large garden that has these staple crops in it…

If you have never figured out the area of land you will need to make one loaf of bread, I highly recommend that you sit down and calculate it out, it is very elucidating about what survival really means.

Also, TREES of every imaginable type are paramount and should be protected by culture/custom. Fruit trees no matter how minor should never be cut down…they always have something to offer people. Wether it is cider at brandy or other liquors, fruit or shade, scent or wildlife.

>>22558

Why are you describing the risk-taking businessman phenomenon as some immutable experience?

>The businessman has to take on large amounts of debt

Nope. This can be judged as "over-reach".

I have heard this story before, all of it, and it seems arbitrary. "Starting a business" doesn't have to be a big thing. It boils down to "doing business", or exchanging value for value, labor for value, value for labor, or labor for labor. You can pick up trash and get paid, and your business can be nothing more than picking up trash (urban or even suburban example). Why the fuck are we lamenting the tragedy of someone who takes needless risks and suffers for it? Why are we accomodating for this without looking at the grass roots first?

>>22572

>Nothing that can sustain you can be grown vertically.

Bullshit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhdI1FYuH7A

Look at the intro, see the yield and space requirements, get a jist for it. It's fucking mushrooms, it doesn't even require all the same shit plants do.

<600 lbs of mushrooms a week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxRNoSSkLkE

Go to 3:39.

I did a quick google search for you, and you can peruse if you want a deeper look. Point of this is that it's land efficient. To be cost efficient, this fuck should try a thing called fucking insulation. A green house in the southern half of America wouldn't have the same heating issue, and electricity can be got by wind, solar, hydro, or whatever else. This fucking idiot could fill a huge reservoir with water daily on the ground level then with a pulley system hoist it up somewhere and let gravity take care of shit if he wanted to spend nada on a water pump. You can have everything hoisted and be able to move these apart with a southern facing large greenhouse "window" letting in light during the day, then lay some insulation over the windows at night and turn on the energy efficient LEDs.

<66 x 660 ft outdoor agriculture yield in 8 x 40 ft shipping container. 43200 sq ft vs 320 sq ft

>>22572

I may have given the impression that it's a new thing since it's musk's brother, or that I have just recently heard of it.

It's not a new thing and I've known about it for a while.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfJ6sKKOCR8

I'm fucking dying listening to how profitable it is.

>>22572

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saGNqkQt3QU

Here's cucumbers.

>>22591

>>22593

Broad leafy greens again.

This works because there are others doing traditional farming. It will not work on an individual basis for a family because there is not enough ROI in terms of the input/output of your energy…I am saying that by the time you get done buying the equipment and supplies you will never see a calorie or otherwise ROI. As someone with expirience in growing food and greenhouses, I know what I am talking about. a 50 cell seedling tray is 4.95$. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? It ads up though and it is SHITTY for the environment because there is tremendous waste of plastic and other non recyclable materials.

How much nutrition is inside a cucumber anon?

>>22586

>600 lbs of mushrooms a week

I am in awe of what your toilet must look like. Not sure who told you that you can survive on 600 pounds of mushrooms a week though…Or since the entire world is going to be growing mushrooms and broad leafy greens who you are going to sell to…I am sure at that point people would literally murder someone for a french fry.

>>22175

He is a coward or idiot. Or both.

A currency permits the free exchange of assets or real things. The value of being able to turn an axe into 10 lbs of meat is spectacular. It's transmutation, conceptually.

If I'm in the desert, a piece of land and an axe and wheelbarrow are worthless to me. It's a terrible argument. The value of everything fluctuates – even your own life. The value of your own life when you recognize that you have a soul vs don't. The value of your life when you have a family that you'd give up your life for, or don't.

How fucking dumb can you be.

It's the same fucking person who yells in all caps in every fucking thread.

>>22586

>This can be judged as "over-reach".

I'll give you an example of something that could cost a bit more than people have access to, which would require loaning money. A three-axis CNC milling machine from China can cost $10,000 just for the machine itself, excluding costs such as the material itself, coolant and replacement parts. It also excludes transportation costs, the land to put it on and electricity costs. So unless you are already incredibly rich and with money to burn (at which point, why even have a business), you are going to be spending money that you do not own and you are going to be working to repay the money you took. And this is just for a milling machine, a machinist is going to require more than just a milling machine. He's going to need software which can cost a couple thousand, a lathe for a couple hundred, a vise, a couple of drills and other tools that would be necessary to make parts. And it will be paid for through good intentions along with hugs and kisses, no money needed whatsoever. No risk either because it doesn't require money so no worries.

>>22605

Can anything stand in as currency?

Yes, right?

Ok…

Why can't anything stand in as currency now?

_____ it is a fill in the blank answer. I will let you work it out on your own time.

>>22611

Gold does not corrode. It is basically timeless. It can be melted down and reformed into any shape and retain all of its properties. It is of limited quantity, and thus things tend toward deflation, bar the collection of gold, but it does not deflate because the currency itself decays. Can you think of a better alternative? Your arguments were shit. Provide a better alternative. An exchange rate can be loosely set between metals, as it has and does. Is there a problem with this? Is there a problem with everything ever? (Yes)

Name a better alternative. I did: land.

>>22609

This has nothing to do with your horror story. Someone can make the returns with such a machine very quickly, with their own labor. Your horror story only makes sense with either really fucking dumb investments, huge fucking projects, or by being very very unlucky. I don't have an issue with a $5,000 - $10,000 loan with low interest or flat return. A $100, 000+ loan when it would take 10 years to return is insane though. You used an example that would take a month or three to return – that's fuckin great. Round of applause.

>>22596

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3StT5xgA0L4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlratwBT5OI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mM_H8dBBzaw

Producing spuds doesn't seem an issue either way.

You failed to recognize that they are farming seafood as well. I am not naive or mathematically incompetent enough to not know how 4.95 can scale. A 50 cell seedling tray is a reusable item and the easy choice for a lot of people, but if you wanted the greenest possible… some coconut husk tier shit with running water by pulleying up a water reservoir and using some control-flow valve for a constant stream along/down a declined tray of… fucking clay. If you reuse the water, there should be clay mineral remenants which you could possibly use to some purpose.

You can grow anything vertically, because you can fill a multi-level building with horizontally grown shit, with soil grown veges. In terms of energy input/output, you can use solar, wind, hydro, methane, changing water tables (I believe), geothermal, etc. If it's in soil, all natural light… maximize light and land usage, use polished metal to bring in light from outside with a giant funnel into a level beneath the inclined level. The funnel would be tilted south, and wouldn't compete for light on the top level as it would be light passing over the building. Turn on the LEDs at night

The entire issue was about land efficiency. I included vertical indoor farming for the northern climate and low land availability. Productivity of a single acre of land is well enough that there shouldn't be any starvation issues. The quarter acre of the second link above produced 337 lbs out of 34 lbs, and they ate about 30 lbs during its growing time so they wound up with about 270 lbs of potatoes surplus. They seem to be food self-sufficient on half an acre of land dedicated to growing, and a quarter acre produced the 300 lbs of spuds. So we have land efficient greens, mushrooms, and now spuds. They could sell 180 lbs of spuds and have plenty of stores.

>>22596

>>22657

>how $4.95 can scale

I mean to say how 1 thing can scale, and thus all of it.

Gold is just as bad, if (((someone))) hoards gold they could control the market and our currncy would go up or down if someone opened a Gold Mine in Isreal.

A labour backed currency is preferable as it will only go up of the net productivity of our nation goes up which is good. And it's immune to currency manipulators or other such Jewry.

>>22673

>Look at these grow lights; can you imagine how expensive it is to maintain those?

This is false. I've known those who have grown. Full of shit, unless you're buying some absolute trash from China because you have no clue how to navigate the fucking market.

>forklift crazy vertical

Yeah that seemed extreme to me as well. Not what I'm talking about though. This is the only premise: vertical. Not extreme skyscraper shit, but anything that more efficiently uses a horizontal space. You can use soil on a natural light roof, a floor level LED level (blue and red), and shrooms in the basement or small hut to the side. Plenty of leafy greens are nutrient dense, and spuds are certainly calorie dense.

>gold not only non-corrosive metal

It's a reason it's used. You can provide arguments for other metals, but the anon I was replying to was talking about using ANYTHING as a currency, which is retarded.

>are you telling me…

are you being asinine…

>biosphere

I am not familiar. The reason plants brought indoors would lose nutritional value would have to do with soil quality. Lack of microbes, fungi, minerals.

>>22676

Labour backed. How lacking in fucking comprehension. The point is to evaluate labour and also goods with a third party unit of liquid value. An hour of fucking labour is not equal to any other. Picking up trash =/= building a house =/= surgery. And of picking up trash, the fast crack addict =/= the fat lazy slowpoke.

If gold is Jewish, your way is Moloch himself.

>>22687

The state sets the base value of labour (as it does already) people are payed more on skill or merit.

In a gold based economy the state still sets the base value of labour just tied to gold. How does that make sense? Gold gets cheaper so your labour is worth less? That's super Jew. The function of all parts of an economy require labour mental or not, there is really no downside to tying it to labour.

All parts of the economy not tied to labour will be phased out (investment banking, private banking). A factory owner who works and buys steel to create shovels will still be payed what his shovels are worth and he is free to pay his employees what their labour is worth.

Just the bottomline value of labour will be set and the currency backed by it.

>>22243

He’s 100% wrong. Learn what fiat is. Learn what specie is. Words have definitions.

>>22673

Fun fact: gold is money.

Fun fact: specie is not fiat.

Fun fact: you are a jew.

>>22695

Gold is a mostly useless metal unless used cosmetically or in small amounts for conductive pourposes on computer parts.

It has no inherent value, it is not a currency and works horribly as one.

You're telling me that my currency should rise or fall because Isreal opened up a new gold mine? Or (((investors))) hoarding gold deicided to release it? A gold backed currency gives (((them))) just as much power.

If we want monterary thus economic independance gold is not the way to go.

>>22657

The machine would make a nice return, that is why you pay the cost for it, but for a manufacturing process (along with distribution) with more than just one person it stacks up. The goods might need further processing and, unless you want to grind production down to a halt, you are going to need someone to further process and someone to transport these goods while the machinist continues his work.

>>22715

<mostly useless metal unless used cosmetically or in small amounts for conductive pourposes on computer parts.

Is electronics really the only example you can think of? Because I am hearing a whole lot of this point constantly regurgitated.

>used in alloys for titanium implants

>used as a lubricant for mechanical parts

>used for soldering composite materials

>used for chemotherapy

>used for heat reflective glass in buildings

>>22290

>4) Better electrical conductor than gold or silver

And that's where you're wrong kiddo.

Silver is best, but it forms and oxide layer quickly.

Medically, silver is superior to copper, as it's non-toxic and 100% effective against all microbes.

Copper is a very useful element though.

The same goes with Platinum, but copper and silver have more common uses.

I'm just waiting for the day that resistant bacteria are so widespread that it's the only remaining safe treatment.

>>22301

>Energy is the ultimate source of all value.

The universe produces infinite amounts of energy, and yet it has no purpose, therefore no value.

The ultimate source of value is man-hours.

A human lifespan is finite, and a human can only do so much good work within that lifespan.

The demand for production also increases with the size of a population, which guarantees an ever increasing need for man-hours.

If you don't believe me, look at digitized products. Once something is digitized, it's intrinsic value is nearly non-existent because it does not require human labor to reproduce.

Counterfeit goods are a lesser price not necessarily because they're inferior, but because they aren't made by skilled workers. Workers who invest many man-hours into their trade.

Sustainable growth can be achieved as long as the demand for labor is satisfied using people within the community which demands labor. Society as a whole collapses when foreigners are used for labor.

There are two great examples of what happens if either route is chosen: 1930's Germany and current year "civilized" world

>>22332

>The fact of the matter is that it was widely available in the region the kikes came from

Gold and silver are easy to press into coins, and are very dense, which makes it easy to verify the authenticity.

The scarcity of material also makes it expensive in man-hours to mint.

The demand for the metals to be used for coinage caused their perceived value to skyrocket, and the kikes with their expansive trade and thievery networks were able to provide the metals.

>>22715

This is total truth. Nothing that can be manipulated by kikes should be currency. Look at what they have done to something like Bitcoin. They have manipulated the shit out of it just like Rothschild did during the Napoleonic war. Manipulating everyone to believing something untrue and then fucking everyone over. Those bankers should have murdered him on the spot…but they were too greedy to care and too in love with gambling to have a backbone. At their core all bankers are immoral and destructive in society.

>>22788

Board is compromised. Act act according to your own discretion.

>>22788(heil'd)

>therefore no value.

type out your next message without electricty or food for, well, until you die.

then prove me wrong

>>22838

These types of whatifs are retarded, I could easily say that you wouldn't be replying to this post without oxygen to breathe. Therefore air has much higher value than any energy source you may have, since the lack of electricity would simply make it harder to make posts while the lack of oxygen would make it harder to continue existing. You are simply starting with that as an assumption and then building everything else in accordance to that assumption. As such it is useless as information.

>>22841

>without oxygen to breathe.

Oxygen is necessary in the transmission of energy, it plays a vital role. You would be right.

I understand you don't see the fundamental fabric that we live upon, I'm just trying to help you see.

I'm not arguing, you are wrong.

Energy IS value.

Currency, Flow, Charged… it's not a coincidence.

>>22841

I am trying to help you understand that Rothschild did not "invent money" his invention of FIAT is displacement technology, not coin. The coin was a medium of expression which quickly eroded when the medium could no longer contain the flow.

I'm trying to help you see thigns as they are, not as they would have you believe them to be.

>>22342

By that logic all social obligation is slavery.

>>22852

>>22841

How do you collapse a dam

a flood

https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/fed-repo-injects-billions-into-market-first-time-in-decade-2019-9-1028534289?op=1

>>22690

>The state sets the base value of labour

What labours, and how do they relate to one another in terms of value?

It's a floating, drifting, arbitrary thing either way. Gold at least lets you know it's a mostly vain and material heavy thing of arbitrary value, just playing Face for value.

>>22763

There is no issue with hiring others to do some job. What is your point?

>>22900

Isn’t it?

>>22905

They are counting on the fact that you have no knowledge of the PPT (plunge protection team). All these people do is lie 24/7. EVERY FUCKING WORD is a lie. This is one of the biggest whoppers on record. They have injected fucking billions and billions in plunge protection over the years since 2008 and before in order to artificially inflate values and prop up the jewish banking cartels. It is all done by AI at this point; all electronically monitored and controlled. It is a fucking joke.

>>22763

Do you mean that there would be several other expenses adding up to 100k or however much? So a poor person drops 100k by loans on something? The point I was originally making was basically benal as it was more a redefinition or decluttering of the language and concepts. I'm trying to simplify and hopefully create some 'innovations' while at it. Your example doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I'm talking about, as the problem of loans and not being able to pay them is similar either way.

>>22927

It's an immature point to make. Gravity is slavery. Hunger is slavery. All things are slavery. Be reasonable. Don't think in a vacuum and recognize that life is what it is and outside of oneself. Social obligations can sometimes be misconcieved but are by and large there to improve the social fabric of the world. Reality makes no compromises, it is what it is what it is. If you're a soulless NPC you might be some amoral, immoral fuck, but fuck you hope a lich traps your soul and burns it for a hundred years in his dark furnace.

>>22255

You are the dumb fuck. Tallies have been used instead of Gold and were way better. Gold has no value any more. Only in the minds of people. That is why Tallies were used.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Tally_marks

https://gimms.org.uk/2019/03/08/history-english-tally/

Why should people go back to some crap form of trading when they can just use Tallies like they did in Britain. To make those who hoarded a piece of metal wealthy for what reason? In dire times your logic make no sense. Its all about exchange of services and what kind of practical items you can give to those who are willing and need them. Gold have no practical value what so ever. Sure. Silver like some mentioned got more value in reality and Copper. We dont live in History anymore. A lot has changed in the world since the previous civilizations used Gold only and again. Tallies were used after all for a time. With no gold reference to gold at all.

People use whatever item/metal/object they think are the best to use as mediator for their transactions. Old habits die hard. Gold was used just because it was a habit. This was before we found oil.

Before the overpopulation. Before we actually got a little bit more smart. When we started to become a little bit more smart, thats when they used Tallies. In more recent history.

Reiterating history and relying on it as a sole factor how it will be in the future, I cannot see how that is right.

You cannot teach an old dog to sit. That is why you are repeating what all the celeb investors been saying for a decade now. You believe in them and follow them like a peasant. They've been saying the same mantra for more than a decade now these celeb investors. To hoard gold.

Anything that any celeb says or tries to make the peasant do. I would be very vary of since gold market is controlled (((by them))). Gold prices have been proven to been manipulated You go support that which (((they))) want you to buy.

>>22943

Show me proof it's manipulated instead of currencies decreasing or increasing in value in relation to gold.

You are too fucking stupid to have this conversation. You just assert your point over and over again. How the fuck do you not see an issue with using oil or tallies as the "common currency"? Gold doesn't rust. Gold can hold a lot of value in small amounts due to its low quantity/volume on Earth.

I don't care if you use all metals, since metals in general last a while and are convenient. The point is to have something consistent and practical.

>People use whatever item/metal/object they think are the best to use as mediator for their transactions.

<Yet you offer no alternative besides fucking labor like a retard, and haven't addressed my issue with it. >>22920 (You)

As well, gold is an actual fucking object instead of a "unit of labor" abstract fucking thing. You are a fucking trog retard.

Name ONE fucking material object better than precious metals or metals in general for backing currency/being currency.

>>22932

>you have no knowledge of the PPT

I understand the ESF, I understand that the NY Fed is a front operation, I understand the exile of the real wealth of this nation, the gold, into foreign markets, the pumping of the dollar right now to quickly turn off the flow and watch the dollar collapse while their foreign assets they purged out skyrocket, then they will come back in and buy everything for pennies on the dollar and all those chinese who were convinced to buy buy buy the US will be left holding worthless real-estate, which they will then sell for a fraction of what they thought was a good deal and I fully understand the need for the politicians to disarm the population before that happens and their insane rush to do so.

Yeah, I understand. I understand exactly.

>>22920

All labour is nessasary for the continuation of the state. If the garbage man stopped picking up trash we would see disease, if the percision mechanic and road worker stopped doing his job the transportation industry would die and cities would starve. If the doctor stopped treating patients those in hospital would perish.

Sure a doctor's or mechanic's work takes more skill and training then a garbage bagger and will of course be payed more based on speciality as they are now. There is nothing stopping that; the BASE value of unskilled labour is just the same. (ie minimum wage).

Man A: Doctor(skilled labour) 10 hours of work, 10£ + Skill/Training/Merit brings home 25£

Man B: Bagger (unskilled labour) 10 hours of work but he's really good at his job so 12£.

People are still free to give raises and pay skilled labour more as we already naturally do to incentivize it. But those not suited to skilled labour still need a place in the economy and the economy can't function without them. Thus it comes to class cooperation instead of struggle.

>>23006

>the BASE value of unskilled labour is just the same

Only if you assume all unskilled workers are equal in both the work they do and in their own abilities, which they are not. And, of course, it is under the assumption that there are no special conditions. What I mean by special conditions is that some types of labour will be rewarded more due to risk to personal safety, during which time of day the work is to be done or just how desirable of a job it is.

>>23006

>>23006

>All labour is nessasary for the continuation of the state.

This is true. You want currency backed by the realest or self-actuating thing possible – this impulse is fine. But it is impractical and doesn't understand what function currency serves. All currency does is serve a function. That function is to mediate transactions. The labourer USES currency, they aren't the SLAVE or COMMODITY of currency.

Your suggestions don't actually change anything. It is show and pomp and retarded communist-tier class-struggle peasant-mob college-marxist think. It does not solve any problem, but it looks like it does quite a lot, doesn't it?

Your thinking is like Gold in that it serves no function, feels heavy, and is oh so pretty. It's fucking ironic (another metal) how shallow your thinking is.

An hour of labor is less useful to back a currency as a unit of gold, because the entire purpose of a unit of gold is to act as a currency to mediate transactions. Labor does not mediate transactions. Labor is a thing one needs currency for.

An ounce of gold is always an ounce of gold. An hour of labor is never just an hour of labor.

All this autism itt about gold

What you really want are the following:

Ammunition

Toilet paper

Lighters

Portable food (MREs, etc.)

Drinking water

The Balkan Wars example is pretty telling in that lighters and water are the most valuable - for a reason.

Gold is a novelty by comparison, an intellectual exercise like dumping your money in foreign currency. Cool to have, but not as important as the aforementioned. People literally sucked dick for lighters in the 90s.

>>23014

Completely irrelevant. Currency is for nations, for civilizations. You're talking about what happens when civilization/nations collapse or are not present.

Fucking brainlets

>>23017

Collapse is very much relevant

>>23017

>Completely irrelevant. Currency is for nations, for civilizations. You're talking about what happens when civilization/nations collapse or are not present.

Yes, isn't this the point of the whole thread? Krauts buying gold to hedge against collapse? There's far better things to buy.

And if you say it's not, then what is the point? You aren't going to be buying things with gold as long as your state maintains a non-gold currency - which they will likely do forever unless they do collapse, in which case refer to previous point.

tl;dr: you're the brainlet

>>230012

It solves currency manipulators from existing. To get money you must put in work, the only way you can spend money is on things other people put in work on.

Thus finding the Jew is as easy as finding the non-producer who remains solvent.

You hoarding your cash or gold does nothing. An ounce of gold is worth whatever the gold hoarders say it's worth. It's like Diamonds a useless material artifically inflated through advertisments and hoarding.

But labour is always labour and the end goal of an economy is the managment of that labour to make sure everyone is debt free and fed to work towards the creation of the Organic State.

And through this our monterary system is exclusivly tied to our own productivity and value of our labour. Securing monterary independance which is the only way to Autarky.

>>23012

>>23046

>>23018

>>23021

Some fuck is arguing for backing currency (which can only be a thing in a civilization) with fucking labor. And that's fucking retarded.

OPs statement:

>. . . .the German government has reduced the threshold on anonymous cash transactions for physical precious metals from €15,000 to €10,000 and now to €2000.

>As a product - comparable to cash - precious metals offer a high degree of anonymity and are suitable for the investment of large amounts with above-average value stability, easy transportation and global acceptance.

>In other words, these statists detest all the positive characteristics of gold.

Clearly there are pros to having gold. Germany is facing a fucking collapse, and you'd be retarded not to buy some gold. The entire world isn't collapsing (yet). You'd be spending that gold in some other country after you've fled to get a fuckton of supplies (because you have the resource – gold – to buy it) unless everyone knows things are going to go to shit (the entire world that is) and aren't bothering with gold or any currency at all. They might kill you for the fun of it, in fact.

Besides, the best currency is survival skills, knowledge and knowledge of the surrounding terrain and whatever terrain/ecosystem you may travel to in case of collapse. Even if we're talking major collapse of the entire world or just being stuck in some place – of course survival supplies are more important. But some retard is arguing for backing currency with labor, and currency is only a fucking thing when civilization is still going on.

>>23021

You don't lose value with gold unless everything becomes so much better, so much more stable, that your loss of return is irrelevant anywho. If things get worse or more unstable, gold can pave the way or transfer your wealth to another country (which you flee to).

tl:dr: brainlet cries brainlet

>>23046

>It solves currency manipulators from existing.

No it doesn't.

>An ounce of gold is worth whatever the gold hoarders say it's worth.

Prove it. And prove how this isn't a problem with "labour backed rupees".

>>23053

I already explained how it does schlomo learn to read here let me explain.

Demand of gold low.

I hoard a majority of the gold and only mine a little while keeping the resource rights.

I release very little Gold into the market.

Price is driven up as supply is artifically low.

I make more money in total then I would of pooping it all out at once.

This is how the Diamond industry functions already. Because let me tell you a secret.

Diamonds aren't rare they just aren't mined as much for this reason.

>doesn't stop currency speculators

Explain to me how you would mess with the currency of a nation if it was backed by labour and all industries not tied to labour are destroyed. (Investment banking and private banking as a whole)

>>22959

And what are you going to do about it anon? Since you understand?

>>23009

You're correct not everyone is equal. But all labour are all equally nessasary for the countiuation of the state. The majority of labour isn't done in dangerous envioments and if you want to pay someone more based on risk go ahead. I would argue it should be required to pay a labourer more depending on the risk.

>>23074

>But all labour are all equally nessasary for the countiuation of the state

Except that is also wrong. Some work is orders of magnitude more important. Within these types will lie work that is integral for its function, while other types of work might simply pose an inconvenience if they were gone. It might be a fairly significant inconvenience and it would cause a number of problems, but it would still go on however inefficiently. You're desperately trying to cling to the idea of equality when it is glaringly obvious there is none.

>>23063

You did not explain at all how gold hoarders say what gold is worth. You've only communicated a strategy in which one can manipulate the economy. The economy can be manipulated with cash as with gold. You are a fucking retard.

>Explain how you would mess with the currency of a nation if it was backed by labour

I would hoard a shit ton of cash. Then, when cash availability is low and the government dipshits decide to print more money and circulate it, I would fucking flood the market with the money I stored and thus crash the fucking dollar's worth, hence, your labor as well. There'd be so many Labor Rupees (LR the freeman's currency!) that the value of an hour of labor (to note once again: arbitrary definition of labor as you are not actually speaking of any specific labor) would go down, as an hour of labor no longer buys you bread and beer, only beer (or bread for you degenerate loafers – Get to work!).

The value of an hour of labor can fluctuate and the economy is just as manipulable with your homo idea you marxist retard. Communist slaves– I mean citizens worked to the bone were paid with some bread and soup; that is the value of their labour to a communist.

The fucking entire issue is that you have no clue how to concieve of how all of this mediated – how it's practically fucking done, how it would manifest in reality. All you have are nice ideas.

Come back with details that address how capital (objects – which have fucking value), labour and the coordination or mediation of all these things relate to one another economically if you actually fucking believe what you say.

>>23074

>all labour equally necessary

Nope. Why are these retards writing this shit up without having thought it through first? Why do none of you think before words spew out of your sewer minds?

When do you fucks touch down to fucking reality?

>>23082

All labour is needed. Take the plumber for example, if all plumbers stopped plumbing our pipes and tolietry would cease to function. Thus waste and such will pile up causing disease. And if there were no doctors to treat it we would die.

They are both nessecary and an economy without one or the other would be bonked. How else will you get rid of waste in a big city without tossing waste into the street causing disease.

>>23089

So you go through the effort to set up a farm or something so you don't have to pay for food. Work insane hours to hoarde currency and come… to an impasse. It would be impossible to make more money than the labour you put in as all jobs not tied to labour are gone. That's how the Jew acculumates so much money in the first place, private banking and investment.

The only reason the currency is circulated is equal to the poductivity of a nation.

You couldn't work enough jobs to accure that much money. That's an impossibility.

>>23093

"necessary"

please figure out what this word means. thank you.

If there are no plumbers, I may shit on you instead.

If there are no doctars, I may harvest your blood, marrow and organs for replacements.

Why are you so incompetent at understanding systems and mechanisms of action. All you are giving us is a fucking sentiment. Sentiments do not build fucking nations or keep them running and minimize error. Not all fucking labor is equally necessary. Retard. Fuck off.

>>23097

You don't have the skill to preform an organ transplant or set up plumping to deliver it anywhere near my head.

How do you suppose you would do it? Oh right you would hire a plumber or doctor. Trading of skills and labour for other goods from labour (food) or labour and skills itself.

Fuck it man why don't we tie the price of Platnium? That's rarer than gold maybe then we can get our currency owned by Jewish Platnium miners instead of Gold ones!

>>23102

>How do you suppose you would do it?

You missed the point. The point is, air is more necessary than vodka, and a house is more necessary than a dildo. Not all labor is equal. Please grow a brain.

>>23104

In that case the market would deicide through demand what they are worth and the factory owner woud be free to pay the portion the workers deserve. The state would be there to limit demand and stop degenerate things like dildos from being produced.

Fill the demand not create it.

>>23104

IDK…

dildo…house…house…dildo

dildo…hmmmm

know what I mean…

>>23053

>Some fuck is arguing for backing currency (which can only be a thing in a civilization) with fucking labor. And that's fucking retarded.

That "fuck" is Gottfried Feder and the NSDAP platform. Do your reading.

>. . . .the German government has reduced the threshold on anonymous cash transactions for physical precious metals from €15,000 to €10,000 and now to €2000.

Yeah, small fry outrage bait. I just came in to drop some redpolls about what's going to be useful to have in a collapse.

>As a product - comparable to cash - precious metals offer a high degree of anonymity

How, exactly? I could see making this argument for all the compartmentalization you can do with BTC, but not physical specie.

>and are suitable for the investment of large amounts with above-average value stability

Gold fluctuates all the fucking time, dude. And I say this as a guy that still invests in gold.

>easy transportation

Fucking how lol, all the money is digital now. You can wire shit to Tokyo in seconds.

>global acceptance.

Pay your local grocer in .5g bars. See how that works out.

>In other words, these statists detest all the positive characteristics of gold.

>Clearly there are pros to having gold.

Yes, but it's limited. Honestly about the same as having foreign currency stashed somewhere (ex: Soviet citizens having USD in 91)

>Germany is facing a fucking collapse, and you'd be retarded not to buy some gold. The entire world isn't collapsing (yet). You'd be spending that gold in some other country after you've fled

Yeah, I'm sure you'd have that option. /s

>to get a fuckton of supplies (because you have the resource – gold – to buy it)

Unless the seller doesn't want gold and only wants USD, for example.

>unless everyone knows things are going to go to shit (the entire world that is) and aren't bothering with gold or any currency at all. They might kill you for the fun of it, in fact.

That's the standard assumption people operate under when talking about full collapse. It's not that the entire world goes to hell necessariy, just everywhere for hundreds of miles around (including airports, gas stations, highways, etc.) Again, good luck getting out.

>Besides, the best currency is survival skills, knowledge and knowledge of the surrounding terrain and whatever terrain/ecosystem you may travel to in case of collapse

Yes. That and things which are not being produced anymore in large amounts and are suddenly spiking in demand (generators, lighters, water bottles, canned food, ammo, medicine, etc.)

>Even if we're talking major collapse of the entire world or just being stuck in some place – of course survival supplies are more important. But some retard is arguing for backing currency with labor, and currency is only a fucking thing when civilization is still going on.

Again, read Feder. Gold is noble, certainly better than fiat, but consider (((who))) owns 99% of the world's gold supplies. If you think that they just issued paper without looting national gold reserves in exchange, you're naive.

>You don't lose value with gold unless everything becomes so much better

That or people stop caring about gold

>so much more stable

Depends in comparison to what. Gold is an item that's open to international speculation, like everything else. Arguably, that makes it less stable than the strictly-controlled RMB or some other total control fiat.

>If things get worse or more unstable, gold can pave the way or transfer your wealth to another country (which you flee to).

I see this libertarian fantasy a lot, without any real backing.

1. Where would you go? (Who would take your ass as a refugee?)

2. You're assuming you can pull your gold out immediately, same as all the people who will want to do the same. Unless you hoard it physically.

3. With what transport? Things hitting full boog in your country will make travel almost impossible. Unless you're rich enough for a private airfield, lucky enough to get out in time, or have something like a dedicated boat you're pretty much fucked. Everybody will be trying to leave via the exact same routes, everyone will buy out the fuel at the stations, state of emergency in +/- 6 hours will shut down the highways. In short, you're fucked.

>>23124

>NSDAP Gottfried Feder

I am not at all surprised. It is still retarded communist or communist-likes arguing for it ITT, and they are retarded.

The reason it's a poor idea is because it requires complete top down benevolence and control. The currency enters circulation by state projects that pay in their currency for hours worked

>small fry outrage bait

It's not about the outrage, it's about the intentions behind the action. They know wealth is going to be leaving their nation – that is a good thing to mentally grasp when considering the issue.

>anonymity

As a product. It's a material rather than a serial number and country.

>gold fluctuates

And currency of any kind doesn't? Hence the relative of OP's statement. Land is more stable of course, and depending on if that country's land you're investing in is about to get fucked and owned by another country or not – in which case gold would be more stable. A diverse portfolio hedging all your bets depending on every scenario would be MOST stable though.

>easy transportation

Pretty sure OP meant that it's value dense and you can transport it to any bumfuck nowhere place I guess.

>grocer

Pay your local gun guy in war torn fuckistan with some gold coins. It'll work out fine. The value of it is ROBUST. ROBUST MOTHERFUCKER. Your grocer is a weak wristed cunt that isn't going to want such big decision thing like gold in the store she's managing – she's lived there her whole life and still thinks about fucking high school from 15 years ago. What you do is go to anyone that can turn gold into solid value then turn that into cash if you can't get a cash for gold fuck directly. It's like storing value in guns and ammunition… smart… but you still have to turn it into food and water and whatever the fuck else you want to buy, and that requires a bit more resourcefulness than a credit card or cash – which is most useful during times of stability and convenience, which is fucking irrelevant to what we're talking about. And guns/ammo isn't as value dense, but diversify your 'portfolio' if you're smart.

>same as foreign currency

Possibly. In times of high financial instability all around, you bet on precious metals as a % of your wealth then put the rest in useful things for SHTF scenarios. Having some common currency so you don't whip some fucking silver/gold out makes a lot of sense though – passage money. Trail money.

But who is accepting what? How long is it good for? Where is it good for?

>YOU CAN'T LEAVE

Roads are an issue, yes. This is a larger topic than gold though. This is a Shit Hits The Fan general point. It has nothing to do with whether gold is better or not than german currency for keeping value.

>generators, etc.

Yes.

>(((Gold)))

Labor backed currency only made sense to the utopian dream of the fuhrer and NSDAP. It's impractical and a floating figure that would (or even as a COULD) spawn a shit ton of problems that I doubt anyone has mapped out and dealt with.

>People stop caring about gold

In the SHTF scenario yes.

>arguably fiat is more stable

Bullshit, specifically if you include all metals instead of just Gold and posisbly if you just include Gold.

>lib fantasy

This still is irrelevant to the central topic as it's about SHTF in general and not preserving wealth, but okay.

>where would you go?

Europeans generally accept europeans. Germans should know which neighbors would likely accept them, or buy passage to a country that will at the coast. People can generally get news down the grapevine but that's not always reliable.

>you assume you can pull your gold out

For small purchases and to remain under the radar, you use some solid foreign paper, actual goods, or some cheap shit like silver or copper and try not to look jewish or gullible middle class enough that they realize you probably have gold too. Best to have a silver watch or other bit of jewelry instead to trade with those who are secure enough that they're running a racket of sorts in a failing country.

>what transport

Nothing to do with anything really. If you're stuck in a collapsed country you have a lot more thought to put into this shit than a topic on whether gold holds wealth can give you.

>>23200

Forgot to go back and finish the first paragraph.

Having a labor backed currency makes sense for as long as you are growing a nations infrastructure and using it as the "national stimulus" basically. It made sense for NSDAP to do so. They would have to do some rethinking on the matter after the nation had no projects for its people, I'm sure.

>>23201

Lol dude, national infrastructure investment is something that works at all times for all people. There's not a good time NOT to expand highways.

>>23200

It's not about the outrage, it's about the intentions behind the action.

Meh, they lowered some arbitrary limit on what exactly? "Anonymous" buying? Here the USG puts you on a list if you extract more than $2k at once.

>They know wealth is going to be leaving their nation – that is a good thing to mentally grasp when considering the issue.

Again, I don't think so. This is just another blatant fleecing attempt by bureaucrats. They will want a cut of the transactions, of course.

>As a product. It's a material rather than a serial number and country.

Yeah but nobody can actively keep track of all the serial numbers, and the country thing is irrelevant.

>And currency of any kind doesn't?

So what's the point of jerking specifically gold as some kind of cure-all?

>grocer

Pay your local gun guy in war torn fuckistan with some gold coins.

Eh, maybe. Most prefer USD, I think.

>It'll work out fine. The value of it is ROBUST. ROBUST MOTHERFUCKER. Your grocer is a weak wristed cunt that isn't going to want such big decision thing like gold in the store she's managing – she's lived there her whole life and still thinks about fucking high school from 15 years ago.

So it's normie repellant. This is a big strike against it. Seriously.

>What you do is go to anyone that can turn gold into solid value

Such as? Gold is expensive for what is essentially a shitty medal. The best "solid value" you'll get would be jewelry - which is worthless in a warzone anyway.

>then turn that into cash if you can't get a cash for gold fuck directly. It's like storing value in guns and ammunition… smart… but you still have to turn it into food and water and whatever the fuck else you want to buy

The point is to be trading water and food to begin with. Guns aren't even necessary to sell. Just ammo.

>and that requires a bit more resourcefulness than a credit card or cash – which is most useful during times of stability and convenience, which is fucking irrelevant to what we're talking about. And guns/ammo isn't as value dense, but diversify your 'portfolio' if you're smart.

You could be hodling lighters and getting the succ from war thots. It's happened before, it can happen again. Lighters have real utility, unlike gold.

>But who is accepting what? How long is it good for? Where is it good for?

Good question. I suspect it'll be foreign currency, precious metals of all sorts, industrial scrap, medical supplies and other forms of barter.

>Roads are an issue, yes. This is a larger topic than gold though. This is a Shit Hits The Fan general point. It has nothing to do with whether gold is better or not than german currency for keeping value.

Well, your idea seemed like you just up and dodge with all the foreign gold you have stashed. Likely a pipe dream.

>Labor backed currency only made sense to the utopian dream of the fuhrer and NSDAP. It's impractical and a floating figure that would (or even as a COULD) spawn a shit ton of problems that I doubt anyone has mapped out and dealt with.

A lot of NS was bleeding edge. It just so happened that it worked, and it worked extremely well. But I see your point. Better the devil you know.

>Europeans generally accept europeans. Germans should know which neighbors would likely accept them, or buy passage to a country that will at the coast. People can generally get news down the grapevine but that's not always reliable.

Oh, I suppose I meant outside of Europe. If Germany tanks, the whole EU goes with it.

>you assume you can pull your gold out

>For small purchases and to remain under the radar, you use some solid foreign paper, actual goods

I doubt that there will be much "large purchases" to be made.

>Best to have a silver watch or other bit of jewelry

Enjoy being a juicy target

>>23093

If a surgeon stopped working, people might end up dying. If a photographer stopped working, people would simply have shit marriage photos. But for a more serious example: fishers are very important in that they provide food, but the economy can rearrange itself to accomodate this loss without having to collapse. It would suffer without fish, especially at first, but that wouldn't be a major threat to its survival past this initial phase. Like I said, not all labour is needed. It is incredibly useful to have, but it isn't needed. You are clinging onto a philosophical point regardless of how true or false it may be: not all labour is equal because not all labour is needed. That is the main reason why it is unequal.