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/k/ - Weapons

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There's no discharge in the war!

File: 74da391cf2cd4ba⋯.jpg (15.32 KB, 237x255, 79:85, 1963fae3496ffcd71b367a90b7….jpg)

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89e289  No.606594

Newfag here.

So I have a couple of questions

What are the different use scenarios for the following guns:

Submachine guns, machine guns, assault rifles, carbine rifles, shotguns loaded with slug rounds, shotguns loaded with buckshot rounds

My other question is are any of the gun types I just mentioned obsolete? Like, do any one of the gun types council out any of the others?

89e289  No.606596

*council = cancel


e6650b  No.606597

>>606594

Lurk more, or head to QTDDTOT


e91520  No.606599

>>606594

>Submachine guns

Made obsolete by carbines.

>machine guns

Suppressing fire.

>assault rifles

Assaulting. Really nothing special, although full-auto is generally crap for anything but half-assed suppressing fire.

>carbines

Takes the place of submachine guns, basically lots of firepower in a small package. Currently the M4 and M4A1 carbines are standard issue for the US Armed Forces.

>shotguns loaded with slug rounds

>shotguns loaded with buckshot rounds

Made obsolete by halfway decent body armor, instead used for breaching doors by way of blowing out doorknobs and locks or scaring the shit out of prisoners.


76eb8f  No.606612

File: 84e04cc79d714bf⋯.jpg (232.67 KB, 900x583, 900:583, 1484012843501.jpg)

>>606594

lurk moar, but I'll indulge you anyways because I'm at work and have nothing to do.

>Submachine Guns

I'll lump PCCs in here as well (Pistol Caliber Carbines if you're a super newfag). These are really only viable anymore if they're compact-ultra compact, because otherwise why not just bring a carbine instead? Barring >>606599 and his comments, however, an SMG or PCC is really only practical if you have the following information

<Is the target wearing body armor?

<What is the proximity of your engagement? If it's closer than 30m, the SMG/PCC is ideal. This includes:

-being used for vehicle crews which may have to fight threats approaching the vehicle

-being used to defend VIPs or other high priority assets that are within the confines of a room

-fighting door-to-door in CQC

Outside of these roles, SMGs and PCCs are largely overshadowed by carbines

>Machine guns

I'm assuming you're referring to belt-fed machine guns like M249s, MG-42/MG3s, PKMs, etc.

These kind of machine-guns are generally known as light or general-purpose machine guns (LMG and GPMG respectively). They're best used in two distinct roles that are very different from each other:

<Suppressive fire: In this role, the MG will be used to prevent a foe from moving to engage friendly forces. You're not looking to make hits, but very close misses (as close as you can get them). This will make the opposing force (OPFOR) keep their heads down and give friendly forces (BLUFOR) an opportunity to maneuver to better engage the threat.

<Area Denial: This builds off of the previous concept of suppressive fire but to a much broader extent. Area Denial means that any OPFOR that crosses the line-of-sight from that MG is in what's called a "Kill-zone". In an Area Denial role, the MG will be set up in such a way that it's much more accurate than when it's generally used in suppressive fire. Sometimes that means affixing a bipod to fire it from, sometimes that means building a dedicated emplacement for it to fire continuously from, leading to much higher effectiveness of the Area Denial. MGs used this way will typically be operated by teams of 2-3 guys.

>Assault rifles

>Carbine (rifles?)

There doesn't really seem to be a difference anymore between the two. Before, a carbine was a long gun chambered in an intermediary cartridge that differed substantially in ballistics from the rifles that were standard issue. Assault rifles by and large are chambered in carbine/intermediary rounds and perform the same function but with much higher efficiency than their older predecessors. These are best used as a general purpose weapon, and can fill pretty much every role in the list without much trouble.

<Can be used in CQB situations

<Can be used to suppress OPFOR combatants, with modification can be used to act as ad-hoc area denial

<can be used as a marksmans weapon with the correct setup

>Scattergats w/ buckshot

Unarmored targets out to 75m. Outside of this range, the scattergat is largely useless. It can absolutely eviscerate an unarmored man-sized target out to about 25m, and at 75m you're looking at about 1-3 projectiles hitting their target with the same effectiveness as getting hit by a .45 at that range. Not bad, but could definitely be better. Most tube-fed shotguns are hindered by their slower reload times, while the mag-fed shotguns are hindered by their gigantic magazines for anything more than 5+1 shot capacity.

>Scattergats w/ Slugs

Lightly armored targets out to about 25-50m w/o optics. Effective out to about 150m with optics. Mostly though, the slugs are only good for big fucking animals. If you need to take out targets at range, you should go for an assault rifle.


cc2cb2  No.606661

>>606612

Why did the Germans refer to their full calibre bolt actions and semis (for a time) as carbines then?


7c9524  No.606663

>>606599

You better tell all the police and military special forces around the world that their submachine guns are obsolete and should not be used anymore. Tell the manufacturers too.


1eafee  No.606665

File: 8b6954993160440⋯.jpg (268.07 KB, 2486x1864, 1243:932, IMG_1880.jpg)

>>606661

Because they are smaller. Carbine is essentially just a shortened rifle. You just don't really see big rifle rounds anymore because all the modern military rifles generally use some sort of intermediate.


e91520  No.606670

>>606663

>military

They beat me to it and retired them ages ago.

>police

They beat me to it and retired most of them ages ago.

>special forces

They take whatever they want, and it just so happens the first MP7 in the wild was found on a dead frog.


bd4469  No.606683

>>606594

Submachine guns used to be frontline guns back in the day, today they are specialized weapons for certain missions and conditions, notably they are used with suppressors for missions that require utmost secrecy/stealth. Handgun rounds work well with subsonic bullets and faster burning powders and short barrels, they still fill a niche.

As for Pistol Caliber Carbines, they are more fun guns for civilians, but they have their legitimate uses. For short range pest control, the PCC is a great option, deadlier than a rimfire but still quiet enough to use without ear protection in the yard/field. Also, some people of more fragile condition who want a self defense option and find a rifle/carbine too much, a 20 gauge shotgun a bit much, the PCC is a far, far, far, far, far superior choice to a shit grade 22lr for home self defense.

Shotguns are still useful for their main purpose, hunting game. Despite all the jerking off of modern tacticool folks, the shotgun is still a great self defense weapon for the civilian. It hits hard, kills well, shot for shot still the best against the unarmored attacker. Buckshot is the best choice for the kinds of killing the self defense civilian will ever find himself in. Slugs are used to bridge the gap between shotgun and rifle ranges, extend their range, but the civilian almost won't have any situation where he'll need the extra range of the slug, so he should stick with the buckshot. With a longer barrel and the right choke, buckshot can extend its range further than what's usually considered acceptable in 18 inch no choke barrels.

The shotgun's demise is greatly exaggerated in security use. It is the best non lethal projectile weapon with bean bags and rubber rounds, so it will continue at least in this capacity, as well as a breaching round to knock hinges off. Let us also not forget that shotguns will probably never completely die off in main line combat simply due to cost alone. The kind of grade of rifle caliber carbine for any serious security consideration is $700+, while an acceptable combat shotgun will cost $200-300. Believe it or not, many departments are cash strapped, broke, weapon acquisition is an issue. Even with the government selling guns to police agencies, the shotgun is cheap enough to equip every cruiser as an extra/special, and a good pump action can have a very, long service life. For an officer in a department where they don't provide any long arm, the shotgun is an option if he can buy his own on a budget. For the broke department it is a cheap upgrade, or better than no long gun where the faggy government heads go "OH, we're faggots, we will disarm our boys because rifles are scary and police should not be scary and whatnot" but might allow shotguns or provide them if they ban their officers use of rifles/carbines. Here is where slugs are still useful; for the security concern they are better at barrier penetration, for the solider or police officer with one they can punch through automotive glass and metal better, and if you can't get a rifle/carbine the slug gun can offer killing accuracy to 50 yards and with some guns even up to 100 to hit a man sized target.

Don't let the rhetoric in defense of standard capacity magazines decrying the shortcomings of the shotgun or those heralding that we all need carbines and assassinate the shotgun because it is a competitor with many who should by rifles/carbines. The shotgun always worked fucking well, still does, its just that there are better weapons for most uses. A 20 round battle rifle magazine or a 30 round assault rifle magazine never made the 6-7 round tube shotgun any LESS deadly.


bd4469  No.606684

Light machine guns bring heavy suppressive/killing fire to the average infantry squad. Medium/heavy machine guns are used in fixed positions to hammer enemies from long range. Both are used for their ability for continous fire that can keep enemies down and hit continously. Light machine guns are an important part of modern fire team/squad/section firepower and tactics, heavy machine guns especially attached to companies are an important part of some heavy infantry tactics, using its superior range and effect to suppress enemies from afar to help the squaddies move in to take ground, assault directly, surround pinned enemies, ect., useful in conjunction with mortars and other fire support to dominate infantry encounters.

Battle rifles are full power rifle rounds in an auto loader configuration, ie G3, FN-FAL, M-14 in 7.62 NATO. They are not used as much anymore, and are somewhat akin to the assault rifle, but with more powerful rounds they have superior extended range and closer range penetration and bullet energy/weight. Used in the same purposes as an assault rifle, really, but better suited to long range.

The assault rifle is a rifle with an intermediate cartridge like 5.56 NATO or 7.62x39mm. They have longer barrels, usually 20 inches to qualify as rifle as base minimum. M-16 is the easy standout.

Interesting side point, in old terminology rifles were 25-29 inch barrels, anything less than that was a carbine, thus the K98 at 23 inches was a carbine. Its older brother, the G-98 enjoyed a 29 inch barrel and is a true rifle, in every term, old and new. With modern changes to the auto loading combat rifle, barrel length to qualify as rifle seems to be in some cases as short as 18 inches, or around 20+ inches. The nomenclature has changed.

The modern assault carbine is 16 inch barrel or shorter, (some may say 18 inch or shorter) and is valued for its overall short length for maneavuer. Especially in modern urban combat, but especially with troops getting in and out of vehicles. They are easier to move in cramped spaces than an assault rifle of the same build, but suffer from lack of velocity/power that can lead to decrease in terminal performance and range. The assault rifle still has the edge in longer range shooting and is still the preferred weapon in many cases.


cc2cb2  No.606693

>>606665

Ah, ok thanks. So the term carbine has evolved due to the rise of the intermediate cartridge.


8b06f5  No.606876

File: 9895bfaa2f42486⋯.jpg (65.72 KB, 960x720, 4:3, 動けない人質は犯人にとって邪魔でしかないからな.jpg)

>pic for ants

如何して


dbf9d0  No.607773

Think of every gun like different sizes of hammers. You need a different tool for different situations. None truely do it all, but some do good in a few situations. For "effective range", I'm going to use a 25m zero with a maximum 6" drop, as this is about where the point blank distance ends.

>Handgun

Everyday carry and personal protection. They can be made very compact, you could stick one in your pocket and nobody would be the wiser. Larger calibers such as 10mm auto can do well in hunting, with an effective range of ~85 yards with 180 grn bullets at 1200fps.

>Revolver

These require a different category due to their special traits. The use of a cylinder allows for a revolver that's of similar size to a given handgun to use more powerful cartridges, such as .357 magnum, 44 magnum or .454 casull (A notable example is the ruger alaskan 2" bbl revolver). Effective range is around 110 yards for a 125grn .357 magnum.

>Pistol caliber carbine/subgun

These are the guns where you get the best performance out of pistol cartridges that use powders faster than H110, as peak performance/barrel length is achieved at around the 10-14" mark for most automatic pistol cartridges. Rifle cartidges perform notoriously poorly at barrel lengths shorter than 14", due to using slower powders that don't burn in time before the bullet leaves the barrel and cause a lot of muzzle flash and excess noise as a result, the sole exception being .300 blackout (which produces .357 magnum ballistics anyway). A .357 magnum pistol caliber carbine with a 125grn bullet at 1700fps can be used for ranges of 125 yards before dropping considerably. An advantage shared by PCCs, revolvers and handguns is how cheap and easy the ammo is to roll your own- a

38 special case used in one gun, never resized and only ever fed 2.5 grains of red dot under a light cast bullet will likely wear out it's primer pocket before cracking and needing to be thrown away, costing you a grand total of 10 cents per round (22lr is 8cpr for one shot).

>Intermediate carbines of 16" or greater

These guns and battle rifles are where most people buy one gun and be done with it, for good reason- a 5.56 AR with 55grn superformance ammo drops 6 inches at 330 yards with a 25 yard zero. For this reason 5.56 is a popular soldier and varmint cartridge, as it can engage targets a long way away before needing to use optics.

>Battle rifle

Bigger, badder, heavier, harder hitting. This is the rifle you reach for when you expect shit to hit the fan and you're sure it's going to be against armoured opponents or bears. Similar range as the intermediate rifle, at 325 yards for a hornady amax commercial offering.

>Shotgun

Your grandpappy's home defender, your home defender, and very likely your grandsons defender. As mentioned before, buckshot is a terrible weapon to 40 yards. There is very little on the planet that walks that can still keep walking after taking a 3.5" 000 full choke buckshot, and even then it won't be upright for long. They can also be loaded with birdshot for putting duck on the table, and slugs put out ridiculous power to 125 yards, carving a massive .72" hole before expansion and stopping large game as if it was anchored. Additionally they are obnoxiously cheap to reload, as some ranges have garbage bins full of expended trap hulls that can be used again for free- one of my slug loads costs me 37 roo-cents per round.




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