/k/ - Weapons

H&K MK 23 exist for that sole purpose.

>>552443

At room-clearing distances, you don' really need a laser either, and a pistol's sights are going to be blurry anyway. You'll need the laser if you want to aim more than just the general area of the body. Also, a rifle has much more power than a handgun, and is more controllable for follow-up shots.

Why not use a PDW optimized for the task, with more manageable recoil and better ergos instead of your faggy sidearm?

>>552446

of course, shit like the MP7 blows any rifle,handgun (and everything else) out of the water in room clearing which is why i didn't mention them in the OP.

my only argument is that they're nowhere as concealable as a handgun.

>>552447

First of all, define, quantify and metricize "power".

Second, "stoppan powah" doesn't really matter, as i said in OP, a couple of shots in upper chest, neck or head/CNS area are guaranteed for a collapse

Third, this is an important point; you have to take bulk into account, like try slicing a door's pie with a handgun, then slice it again with a long rifle, see what i'm talking about?

Fourth, don't buy into the point shooting meme, almost every footage of competitive shooting, two gun, three gun and even SOF room clearing has them aim down their sights.

Fifth, followup shots? with all that muzzle flash and noise blinding and deafening your ass? Recoil? negligible difference.

>>552450 's first paragraph was meant for >>552448

>>552450

It's pretty clear you have absolutely no experience with this. Nobody slices doors when making entry with a team, and you're not going to be aiming at individual body parts ever. It's all center of mass. Kill yourself, my lad.

>>552443

>Clearing rooms

>Not pelting the room with 40mm frags

>Do you see what you're doing wrong there?

>>552443

>>552450

>please give me arguments on why this idea is stupid.

<small, short, light

So is an MP5 or similar weapon

>can aim while wearing NODs and don't need no faggy IR laser

Trained/practiced hip fire or red dots do wonders for making quick shots

>far less obnoxious muzzle flash and noise (especially when suppressed) helping you shoot better – even better if loaded with subsonics

Longer barrels if anything would mean less annoyance due to the powder having even more time to combust before leaving the barrel

>30rd mags are so small, and CUTE (a glock seventeen and similar handguns already carry 18rds in a standard mag)

MP5/pistol caliber carbines again can have 30 rounders or even use the same glock mags as you said

>First of all, define, quantify and metricize "power".

Begins at the 5:00 minutes mark. Yes it's body armor but hole size and velocity is whats going to cause pain in situations you can't use hollow points. Once you add hollows then you'll want more velocity as they depend on speed to deform properly and it becomes more obvious that your options in ammo can get cut in half (or even dwindle to a small handful of brands) as the smaller barrel will need something that can still reach proper velocity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Lr23j0Vx6g

video is sig v crown in a very popular handgun model and size that didn't perform as well as others but may work really well in a longer barrel

>Second, "stoppan powah" doesn't really matter, as i said in OP, a couple of shots in upper chest, neck or head/CNS area are guaranteed for a collapse

People are different and react differently to getting shot some may have more mass that may lessen penetration some may be so thin that some other types of ammo might pass through without expanding/deforming in the areas it needs to start expanding/deforming. So no a "few shots" doesn't get a pass on all body types what does however pass is shooting them even more which is why smgs work well in full auto.

>>552461

Two times simunition opfor close training exercises in sfax.

and i can tell you that not slicing every corner is the most retarded thing you can ever do and it'll get you nothing but mag dumped by somebody who's aiming at that door.

what did you do, mister high speed low drag?

>>552469

>So is an MP5 or similar weapon

handguns are even smaller, lighter and shorter, and they can be shot while wearing NODs.

>Longer barrels if anything… the barrel

giving you an OAL longer gun and makes room clearing harder and defeating the whole purpose of this conversation.

>MP5/pistol…the same glock mags as you said

read first point

>Begins at the 5:00 minutes mark

The video you posted does not explain anything, it has not defined and quantified what "ballistic power" is.

>So no a "few shots" doesn't get a pass on all body types

Yes it does, vitals are called vitals for a reason, if you get double tapped in the heart, lungs, throat or CNS you're going down, bad, this is a fact.

>>552473

>Two times simunition opfor close training exercises in sfax.

And I've spent more than a decade in the US infantry, and I can tell you that you're a fucking retard.

>>552481

Sitting down all day whining about constipation and maybe shooting once a month in a controlled distance range does not qualify you to have your shitty opinion above anybody else's.

It's bright as the fucking day, if you run into a room like an idiot while neglecting angles expect to be shot to death

and don't fucking give me that "my #2 covers my neglected angle immediately" by the time your #2 has shot the fucker, you would've been already mag dumped.

video very related.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyvw3Qu8k3A

Handguns are a weapon of last resort for anything serious. If your sole mission is to clear rooms, than PDWs, SMGs, and SBRs with proper rounds are much better choices then handguns, especially if your opposition is armed with similar weapons to you. Semi-auto and full-auto shotguns are even better at this, and when loaded with proper ammunition, are guaranteed one-shot stop.

Handguns are a compromise between size and power. They are worthless for literally anything past 50 yds.

>>552486

>Sitting down all day whining about constipation and maybe shooting once a month in a controlled distance range does not qualify you to have your shitty opinion above anybody else's

No, spending years doing a job you've never done, and training others to do that job to standard does, though.

>It's bright as the fucking day, if you run into a room like an idiot while neglecting angles expect to be shot to death

Nobody said this. Your failure to understand how shit works does not make me wrong. It makes you uneducated on the subject.

>>552498

You unironically advocate for hollywood tier point shooting and door rushing and neglecting corners and your only argument is "i've been to da armee kid, thas all u need 2 know!" like you're some sort of CIA SAD SOG thing

kindly post an argument of piss off.

>>552498

But hey, now that we're already deviating off the original topic, let me shatter your little tacticool dreams a bit more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNv5QxUft7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1lCUHeyWH4

>>552474

>just blow up the building

With a tank?

>>552462

>>552443

The answer to the question is always -Flamethrower

-grenades

-artillery.

Any of those. Or in reverse order if you really hate the poor guys.

>>552508

>>552517

>>552487

>>552474

>>552464

>>552462

what in god's cock is it with europoors and edgy overkill-ism

you can't save a hostage or capture someone if you're too busy barrel bombing the whole block

>>552530

>overkill

Sir there is no such thing as overkill. If I wish to shoot someone with a PTRD and they turn to paste then so be it, they're fucking dead and to be sure I'll shoot that paste just to be safe.

>>552530

Because overkill is fun. Hell, why kick the front door open when you can launch an rpg at it? Then launch another one through the doorframe for good measure.

Alternatively just drive a BTR through the door.

>>552531

>hurr durr turn all people to paste

Including the hostages?

>>552443

My only experience with guns is from video games lol so feel free to discard my opinion but I'll tell you this: I'd rather spray and pray with an SMG than do pew pew pew with a little handgun. What if the bad guy is wearing armor? What if the bad guy doesn't stand still? What if he is wearing armor AND doesn't stand still? I want to be able to spray full auto in his general direction.

Or tell me, do you guys actually set your guns to burst fire or even semi when room clearing? That would be hard to believe.

>>552530

>overkill

no such thing

>>552573

>Including the hostages?

Yes. Presume them to be dead the moment they take the building.

>>552573

>I'd rather spray and pray with an SMG than do pew pew pew with a little handgun

opinion discarded because SMGs and handguns essentially shoot the same rounds (either 9mm or .45) and shooting for precision have been proven to be more effective than retarded full auto point shooting.

>What if the bad guy is wearing armor? What if the bad guy doesn't stand still? What if he is wearing armor AND doesn't stand still?

train more and shoot the CNS?

competitive shooters double tap the fuck out of 3x5 inch targets at TWENTY METERS, that's the size of a small brain, if they can train to do at that distance, you can sure as hell train to do it at ~10 meters

>>552576

>competitive shooters train to shoot at targets of x size

I'm sure they do, but their targets don't move in and out of cover and shoot back.

>shoot the CNS

Not always possible. You shoot whether or not you'll hit CNS. Any round on target is good.

>>552577

>but their targets don't move in and out

yes they do

>and shoot back

nothing can shoot back if shot within the first second.

>Not always possible

this is the first time i ever say it for a real life situation, git fucking gud, unironically.

by the first two months of the exercises we'd be able to tag fuckers in the face and forehead faster than they take aim.

>>552579

>by the first two months of the exercises we'd be able to tag fuckers in the face and forehead faster than they take aim.

Including faster than you can process if they're a hostage?

And again, take whatever I say with a boulder of salt, but what if they don't just stand still staring at you? What if they have helmet, vest and move quickly and erratically (on purpose)? They'll be spraying you dead while you try to land that golden shot in their face, at least that's what my intuition tells me.

>>552579

>yes they do

Not like a person. Spring loaded targets and human motion are different.

>nothing can shoot back if shot within the first second.

Not always possible.

>this is the first time i ever say it for a real life situation, git fucking gud, unironically.

Lol.

>by the first two months of the exercises we'd be able to tag fuckers in the face and forehead faster than they take aim.

What organization?

Also, you aren't going to be doing much shooting when you are under sustained fire or stunned from a concussive/frag grenade..

Handguns are superior CQB weapon for solo Rambo style. When working in a team, assault rifle provides flatter bullet trajectory in case you have to fire down the hall.

>>552588

>Not like a person.

nope

like i said we shot at each other with simunitions for days and although human heads are a little bouncier than programmed moving targets they're still essentially the same difficulty to shoot

>Not always possible.

Yes it is, with enough training.

>What organization?

sfax self defense and sports association

>concussive/frag grenade..

the first basic CQB training rule is that you never assume that you are in possession of grenades because that's the case most of the time.

again here's another video of retards using the good old door rushing technique and getting raped because the guy inside was prepared and had his 308 barrel pointed at the door, the pointman was mag dumped

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQvDn9MEtNo

>>552658

rifles suck at close quarters, unless you have a bullpup.

>>552693

>rifles suck at close quarters, unless you have a bullpup.

<SASR/TAG

<SAS/SBS

<NZSAS

<Frog and bagel special forces

The conventional forces of all of them use bullpups, (NZ and France have recently started switching though) and yet the special operations of all of the above use M4 carbines. I'm sure some sandnigger knows more about close quarters combat then all of the above though. Though to be fair, Israeli special forces are sandniggers.

>>552699

>but duh speshul forcis

ah classic fudd tier reply.

first, SOF use ARs because they're sterile.

second, they don't get to pick what they shoot, this isn't call of duty, they take whatever faggy paper pushers approve.

third and most important point, no matter how you try to reconstruct it, bullpups will always be better that conventional rifles for several reasons:

suppose you have an Aug, a basic bitch 14.5-16" AR, and a mk18 or any 10.5" tacticool AR SBR

the SBR will allow you to maneuver and slice well in close quarters, but it will shit itself outside 200 meters, coupled with the staggering muzzle flash and noise, oh and 556 loses it's fragmenting feature under around 2400fps in SBRs (inb4 muh mk262 no shut the fuck up you faggot) so in that case you might as well use a PDW (even P90's ballistics compete with 5.56 from an SBR).

the conventional AR won't probably give you retarded muzzle flash but it's still long and unsuitable, but at least it won't become useless outside 250 meters range, and the rounds it shoots fragment.

the bullpup however, aug for example, carries a 16" barrel while having the overall length of a mk18 (yes look up the specs and compare) so you have a short rifle with the ballistics of a full sized rifle.

Oh and if you want to cite special units in CQB, you're better off citing police units such as GIGN (which to this day still use the MP5 that internet retards deem as "outdated"), much better than glorified recce units.

>>552705

>[Sandnigger screeching]

Top kek. So TAG are a glorified recce outfit? I've got nothing against bullpups, in fact I'm quite in favour of the F88, but you clearly are full of shit.

Bullpups have many advantages such as length, balance, forward LOP making it easier to hold one handed when using a radio etc. Plus the fact you don't have a magazine in between the rifle trigger and the GL trigger. But to act as if a weapon of the conventional layout is terrible for close up work is fucking absurd.

>>552708

Yes it is retarded, try clearing a door with a full sized rifle then come talk to me again

oh wait, probably the most dangerous thing this aussie shitposter has held is a nerf gun

if full sized rifles were ok for clearing SBRs and SMGs wouldn't even exist.

>>552717

A full length rifle is no problem for clearing a normal-sized room, you turd manlet. Don't think I don't know how fucking midget your people are. It's any wonder you could hold up an SMG without getting winded.

>>552735

i've already said it twice

go ahead and try to slice a door with a full length rifle

>>552740

For the last time, nobody else in this thread cares about your munchkin buildings.

>>552746

what's the standard door size in america? two meters?

there is no way you can slice a standard one meter door without fitting in your rifle which defeats the whole purpose of slicing the pie (which is in that case a death sentence)

>>552745

>How can I defeat someone in armor

aim to the neck or the head, even a pelvis shot will make his legs collapse.

>you want to aim center mass of whatever silhouette is in front of you

no not really, if you know your target is armed the last placeyou want to hit is his armor.

>Rifle rounds carry more potential energy on average than pistol rounds

energy is a meme, you should be discuss velocity

and there's no velocity difference between between a 5.7x28 from a 10" P90 and a 5.56 shot out of a 10.5" SBR

>>552755

So what you are saying is

>Enter room

>Accurately aim at bad guy Center Mass

>Wait no he's wearing armor, switch to CNS

>Who the fuck wear helmet with ballistic IIIA visor?

>Alright, uh, neck? Legs maybe?

All the while the other guy will be

>BRATATATATATATATATA in your average direction and disable you or at least throw you off balance before you can even aim down the sights

Also, energy is the only thing that matter, if you are not trying to penetrate armor.

If you are not using AP rounds, you won't do shit against shit.

>>552755

Oi I just cleared my room with a musket. It ain't hard.

>>552764

Just a normal load would smoke the room up. Hell tossing a pipe bomb cast iron grenade in would be enough shock and awe.

>>552757

slotting fuckers in the head/face is the golden rule of the thumb

Second, this is hollywood where getting shot "throws you off your balance" or whatever the fuck you're talking about, bullets don't knock you back, you won't fall unless you are actually dead or got shot in the pelvis/leg bones

oh and if you're fighting people with armor, helmets and face visors you need to rethink your life decisions

>>552761

>energy is a meme

Let me cite ol' abe for a second here please:

>The average football linebacker weighs 230 lbs and sprints at 25.5 FPS. That’s 2020 ft-lbs of energy. A 190gr bullet moving at 2200FPS produces almost identical energy.

>Which is more likely to kill you?

well?

>>552763

Clear it with a sparring partner shooting back at you now, simunitions, or even god forbid airsoft, you'll see my point when you do it.

>>552767

I've got a compound in which I've done such things. Room clearing ain't nothing, doesn't matter how short your stuff is you learn to adapt. I mean I can smack steel consistently at 40 yards firing from the hip.

We need to make flammerwerfers legal again. Fuck rules in wars man.

>>552755

If your dune room is so small that so much as a rifles's butt scrapes the wall, then you're better off getting firebombed rather than actively chased, just like the boys in green would.

>>552767

I'm curious are you military, law enforcement, armed security, or are employed in a job that requires you to react in CQC with a firearm to save the lives of others around you?

>before he says "how is any of that relevant?"

If you don't resemble any of the above, then it makes sense at to why you believe you have a choice in who you get to fight. You don't just KNOW who the fuck is behind the door of a room until you actually break into the room. This isn't hollywood. Dumbass.

Why is anyone still responding to this thread? It's obvious that OP is a faggot that suffers heavily from the Dunning-Kruger effect and doesn't know shit about fuck.

>>552779

>be americoon

>be so fat

>so fucking fat they ignore standard door sizes and make 3 meter wide doors just for you

>go online and pretend that standard one meter door is too small

>>552791

have you read the thread?

>>552781

bank security

>>552782

Speaking for myself, I like tacticool discussions. It's too bad this thread had to turn into childish namecalling and pissing contests of who's tougher. I'm the same torfag as above and so far I still think full auto SMG is the way to go. Meanwhile OP honestly thinks he can use a pistol to pew-pew headshots like John Wick.

I think that, if I ever had to clear a room, I'd be jittery and scared shitless especially when getting hit by the guy who was already aiming at the door. So I want to spray as many bullets in his general direction in as little time as possible. Is my intuition wrong? Or what, you're going to tell me I'd be a pussy for not staying cool and doing surgical headshots (thus going back to aforementioned pissing contests that ruin this thread?)

Why are sand niggers always such massive nogunz wanna be Revolver Ocelot faggots?

>>552792

>bank security

Ah, I see, so you're just there for show.

>>552801

I was proving a point, it's impossible to pie a door without exposing your muzzle, i already said this more than twice but you kept ignoring it

if you have a full sized rifle, and i hope to god you do, go and try it, see if you can succeed, protip: you won't.

>>552807

>he doesn't know about The Glorious Mall Ninja

>>552693

If your dedicated role is CQB, why would you use a pistol instead of a PDW or SMG? or shotgun

I"m not going to contest that rifles are better or worse then pistols for CQB, the question I have is that if that's what you are doing 80% or more of the time, why waste time with rifles to begin with and just get a shotgun/smg/pdw as a primary?

>the first basic CQB training rule is that you never assume that you are in possession of grenades because that's the case most of the time

That sounds retarded. Pipe bombs are dirt cheap to get and easy to make, and if you are a professional organization, actual frag and concussive grenades are available. Are you LE/.mil? Do you guys operate under strict ROE?

Also my 10in M92 7.62x39 works very well for room clearing. My buddies scorpion is lighter but it wouldn't be a factor if the place being raided is not a multi-acre factory complex.

Just use a underbarrel shotgun on your PKM.

>>552764

>>552766

Loading the entire musket with black powder is basically a cast iron grenade.

>>552805

>it's impossible to pie a door without exposing your muzzle

Burden of proof's on you, shitskin.

>>552879

look at first the video in >>552502

watch it all

also flags were a mistake

>>552874

Believe it or not that generally isn't the case. That fuck who got barry killed filled one right up and it didn't do fuck all.

>>552883

I'm not wasting time giving views to your fucking jew instructor, you dumb brown cow. Prove it to me now.

>>552481

I've had infantry-tier urban combat training too - and I can say with 100% certainty that you will get shot if you run into a room without slicing it, no matter how far up your asshole your battle buddy or whatever is.

>>552970

>carbines

suck at both things.

>>552949

rushing and neglecting corners is not a valid doctrine

>>552978

>rushing and neglecting corners is not a valid doctrine

You should have kept it at that, then the thread would have been nicer. Instead you added a separate subject of handguns being better than rifles. John Wick style shoot everybody in the face with a pew pew gun.

And you keep ignoring me, so I ask again: why is your "pew-pew surgical precision headshot" fantasy any more realistic than my "get hit by bad guy + panic + full auto spray" 3-second nightmare? Do you guys set your weapons to semiauto when clearing rooms? I highly doubt that.

>"Well don't rush into the room."

Yeah OK, what if the bad guy pops out from behind cover when he hears me enter the room (in case no flashbang is used as per your no-grenade philosophy)? So no rushing but still getting hit with surprise AK fire in an ambush of sorts.

>"Well his cover must be obvious, you should be pre-aiming there."

What if it isn't?

You know, I'm wasting my damn time, you'll probably ignore this post.

Progressive pistol powders gain their best velocities from barrels 6-12 inches in length, and the gains diminish rapidly after this, with barrels less than 6 inches losing a retarded amount of velocity in the smallest of guns, especially with magnum powders such as W296 and equivalent, and rifle powders are both shit and obnoxious at any length less than 12". Pistols are much more unwieldy at that length- it is rare to see the 8 and ten inch bbl guns outside of the range or hunting fields. What you need to counter the extra weight on the end is a stock, which then requires the left hand to stabilize further on the barrel to control the barrel, which leaves you……with a subgun/pistol caliber carbine.

A subgun in a powerful pistol cartridge such as 10mm, .357 mag, 44 or .454 bridges the gap between the "always there" pistol you keep on your hip, and the rifle you use for non cramped spaces. I once had a reno swat friend tell me that they like to use PCCs about the length of their elbow to tip of their middle finger so that they can lay it across from hip to shoulder in tight spaces. Also, the smaller profile of your pistol is largely negated by the standard pistol pistol stances- you actually extend your arms far more than you do holding a bullpup PCC of total length 20 inches.

>Guaranteed threat stopping

Bull. Shit. Especially with the exact caliber you listed- massad ayoob has been in situations where the 147gr silver tips failed to stop a threat despite being fucking magdumped by the cunt.

TL;DR: PCCs have their place as a standard hammer does between a jewellers and a sledge.

>>552952

>I've had infantry-tier urban combat training too - and I can say with 100% certainty that you will get shot if you run into a room without slicing it

What do you mean "slicing" because we have one definition for that in the US. Entries are done the way they are because you are already aiming at your corner by the time you come in. You can do three men clearing drills, or even two that are much more methodical and do involve a slice, but chances are you weren't doing it right, or we're thinking of different things if you're getting shot as you enter as a team. The other thing you have to consider, is that once you start shooting, you have to enter, or you're going to get lit up from all sides of the room. You cannot stand in that funnel if the enemy already knows you're there. Doctrinally, we think of the three factors of CQC: Speed, surprise, and violence of action. Once your surprise is gone, you're going to have a hard time dictating the tempo of that encounter. Slicing as a four man team kills your element of surprise and traps all that firepower behind one guy. The more guns you can get into the room fast, is how you fuck shit up. The enemy is going to have a much harder time dealing with for of you coming up together than just one or two. A good team can have two guys enter the doorway at one time. You can clear far corners if you can see into the room, but you will invariably have to clear the two near corners simultaneously, and you cannot take the luxury of a one man slice for a single corner, as you can't see or aim behind you.

I think that the main problem here is that the sand nigger doesn't understand how it's actually done and we're having miscommunication because of that. There is a reason we do it the way we do, and not some other way. If pistols worked better, we would use pistols.

>>552443

PDWs obviously, but you conceded that point already.

The question is also penetrating power vs. compactness. Want a intermediate rifle round that can easily punch through wood and some metals? You're going to need the length of a Mk18 at least for it to be effective.