/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

25, Umamah Al-Bahili (ra) reports that the Prophet (saw) said, "A group of my Ummah will remain on truth, they will vanquish their enemy and those who disagree with them will not be able to harm them until Allah commands". "Where are these people"? The Companions (ra) asked. The Prophet (saw) said, "In and around Al-Quds (Jerusalem). (Ahmad)

26, Muawiyah Ibn Sufyan (ra) relates that the Prophet (saw) said, "There is a group among my followers who will continue to be openly on the truth. No one who opposes them can harm them until the coming of the Hour". The Companions (ra) asked, "Where will they be"? The Messenger of Allah said, "They will be in and around Bayt Al-Maqdis (i.e. Jerusalem)". (Ahmad)

27, Abu Hurayrah (ra) relates that the Prophet (saw) said, "A group of my Ummah will not cease to fight at the gates of Damascus and at the gates of Al-Quds (Jerusalem) and its surroundings. The betrayal or desertion of whoever deserts them will not harm them in the least. They will remain victorious, standing for the truth, until the Final Hour rises". (Tabarani)

Hello, Christian here. The picture you have in OP is referring to the Holy Spirit. Full context is key.

<John 14:15-26

>“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

>And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

>I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

>In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.

>On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.

>Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.”

>Judas, not the Iscariot, said to him, “Master, [then] what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?”

>Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

>Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

>“I have told you this while I am with you.

>The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that [I] told you.

>>22352

>You're suggesting that is John 14:16? It's not.

>This is John 14:16:

>You can't just find the the one description of the paraclete you like and then interpolate it throughout the text to support your narrative. You are bearing false witness and this is literally how your book became so corrupted.

Friend, did you even bother reading what you linked me? It says the same thing as what I linked:

<16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — 17the Spirit of truth.

Muslims shouldn't use the argument that the Bible is corrupted when they also try to use it to validate the prophethood of Muhammad.

Besides, there's thousands upon thousands of manuscripts of Scripture that can validate that what we follow today is indeed original and not corrupted, pic related.

I could use the same argument, this time turning it around at the Qur'an and its dozens of versions (most with contradicting messages within them).

>Notice this: "another" advocate. So if we accepted your interpolation of the holy ghost then that would mean there are two holy ghosts.

This particular passage is Christ speaking and referring the Holy Spirit. Look at the entire passage of the NIV that you linked me and tell me whether the description of the Holy Spirit could possibly apply to the Islamic description of Muhammad:

<John 14:16-17

<16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you

<Surah Ali `Imran [3:144]

<Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

>and in 1 John 4:1 John uses "spirit" synonymously with "prophet"

>Again, if here we applied your interpolation we'd have countless holy ghosts.

Again, context is necessary.

<1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time.

We have to keep in mind that the previous verses from John 14:16-17 were referring to the Holy Spirit of the Trinity, thus it's the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit (not to be confused with Muhammad's mistaken understanding of the Trinity as being the Father, Mary and Jesus; Surah Al-Ma'idah [5:116], [5:72-75] and [4:171]).

If we use your argument here, we'll have to assume that Muhammad is a spirit sent from God. To be a Spirit of God, it must confess that: that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; i.e. the incarnation and pre-existence of Christ.

>In the Syriac Sinaiticus we find John 14:26 just says "paraclete, the spirit." Why is that?

Most scholars deem this to be a scribal error. This one variant of the translation doesn't have enough weigh to support Muslim claims, though.

After the Gospel of John was written in Greek, we can see that the Greek Papyri all read 'Holy Spirit'. The same goes for the Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrius.

The Qur'an isn't free from scribal error, as well. One example I can note is when Muhammad confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron and thus making Mary hundreds of years old at the birth of Jesus. (Qur'an 19:27-28)

>John 16:13

The title of the section is 'The Promise of the Holy Spirit'…

>Deuteronomy 18:18-19

By suggesting that the prophethood of Muhammad is revealed in Deuteronomy contradicts what your book teaches. It declares that the prophethood was not revealed by Ishamel, but rather by the progeny of Isaac and Jacob. Surah Al-'Ankabut [29:27]

>Friend, did you even bother reading what you linked me? It says the same thing as what I linked:

That post was formatted horribly.

>Muslims shouldn't use the argument that the Bible is corrupted

First, let's remember the only thing that separates you from a Jew in our eyes regarding scripture are four gospels. Everything else you claim holds no weight for us since it wasn't Prophetic.

Let us also take a moment to remember that "corrupted" ≠ "wholly falsified".

>when they also try to use it to validate the prophethood of Muhammad.

The prophethood of Muhammad validates the Gospels. We follow the prophets, not the scribes with lying pens.

'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? Jeremiah 8:8

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlook. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book. Quran 5:15

>I could use the same argument, this time turning it around at the Qur'an and its dozens of versions (most with contradicting messages within them).

Show us some of those, please. I mean, actually show us. Not just link to a man who who says that Muhammad never existed.

>Surah Ali `Imran

So you don't think Muslims should quote the Bible to support their beliefs but Christians can quote the Quran to support theirs? How does that make any sense whatsoever? Especially since you believe the Quran is falsified rather than merely corrupted.

>tell me whether the description of the Holy Spirit could possibly apply to the Islamic description of Muhammad

My book contains the assertion your book was corrupted by scribes. Your book contains the assertion that your book was corrupted by scribes. There is absolutely no onus on me to make 100% of the book my book asserts is corrupted line up with my book. In fact, it is quite the opposite actually.

>Muhammad's mistaken understanding of the Trinity

There's a reason you couldn't post a verse to back this up. It's wishful thinking on your part. Both the trinity formulation and Mariolatry are separately condemned in the Quran.

>Most scholars deem this to be a scribal error. This one variant of the translation doesn't have enough weigh to support Muslim claims, though.

Sorry, it's not just one. That's also the wording from the Curetonian Gospels. Here you can read Curetonian John for yourself:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/biblia/syriac_s/trpart04.pdf

>The Qur'an isn't free from scribal error, as well. One example I can note is when Muhammad confuses Mary, mother of Jesus, with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron and thus making Mary hundreds of years old at the birth of Jesus. (Qur'an 19:27-28)

Mughira b. Shu‘ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them." Sahih Muslim

Mughira b. Shu‘ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them." Sahih Muslim

>[29:27]

Allah is talking about how the children of Isaac and Jacob were given scripture. We all know this. But in no way does it mean they were the only people given scripture. You're now trying to assert that an Ishmaelite cannot be given prophethood? You're trying to use the Quran to assert that Muhammad was not a prophet?

>>22372

>that pic

Why would any Muslim care that your 4 gospels had more copies than pagan Greeks and Roman books? That doesn't change the fact they were corrupted before putting the ink on the paper and continued to be corrupted long after.

>the Gospel of John was written in Greek, we can see that the Greek Papyri all read 'Holy Spirit'.

Imagine now if the Quran was revealed in Arabic but the primary text was Greek or Persian. Imagine if Muslims had to translate the translation back to the original language for the people it was revealed to to read.

What a nightmare.

What the hell happened in between Jesus' Aramaic preaching and the Greek scribes?

Some say the Aramaic Bible was indeed first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_New_Testament

Imagine if there was disagreement on what language the Quran was written down in first.

Which one is worse: having to translate scripture back into the original language or being divided about what the language of the first written version of your scripture even is?

This has to be unique in the history of religions. Things like this have always led me to believe Christianity is a swidden for Islam. But I'd like to be clear I am not anti-Christian, afterall some of my favorite mosques and restaurants were once churches.

James White is a Favorite Tool for Muslims After Saying John 7:53-8:11 Not Authentic

We don't do 'Islam v Christianity' here. Take it to /christian/.