/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

This should be in the QTDDTOT thread.

Two things you're missing:

1.) When the arabs said heart and thinking with your heart, they didn't really mean the organ in your chest, they knew it and used it to mean brain. It's a common literalism to conflate this to mean the organ in the chest when there's no reason for this idiocy whatsoever.

2.) You take a literalist apporach and don't seem to understand metaphor and literary devices. Not everything in the Qur'an is necessarily literal. For example in the Qur'an, it says allah changes peoples' hearts with His fingers. Does that necessarily mean that Allah has fingers? the answer is no, it could just be a metaphor/symbollism. To interpret beyond the ambiguity of this verse is a bid'ah

Do ears really hear? Technically no.

Can hearts be blinded? Technically no.

Can hearts think? Technically no.

3:7

It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others allegorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is allegorical, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

>>21770

but according to many tafseers , it's a literal meaning

فإنها لا تعمى الأبصار ولكن تعمى القلوب التي في الصدور

and in tabary tafseer it says that hearts that within chests , not brain , so yes i think it's a literal meaning

>>21782

>>21782

>tabari

Tabari rahimahullah simply recorded everything being said by anyone about deen. He was primarily an archivist and even if he disagreed or doubted something he included the point of view.

>>21784

it's not only tabari , but ibn katheer too

look http://quran.ksu.edu.sa/tafseer/katheer/sura22-aya46.html , so so it's a ==LITERAL== meaning i think

i don't want to become atheist aozobillah , but im a med student and what i studied and what i searched showed that there is no conscious mind inside heart

and no none yet answered me

sorry for bad english

>>21796

And when in anatomy did they teach you where the organ responsible for consciousness is located?

I'm a med student as well. Empirical study has no understanding of how consciousness works. Only unfounded assumptions.

There are documented cases of people with almost no brain matter going on to get PhDs in mathematics.

We do not understand consciousness. Do not let this sway you from the straight path.

>>21794

then explain to me why on taking drugs like THC or DMT or even alcohol , which are material changes your mood , thinking , and even your personality

drug like DMT which gives you nearly complete different sense of life

and explain to me why we see children with extreme traumatic hits in their brain losses their intelligence or even if you hit someone on their brain he becomes unconscious ,

we have many evidences that brain is the responsible for thinking

>>21799

please read this >>21800

>>21794

Based Daniel Jou. Did you listen to his interview on the Mad Mamluks?

>>21800

>>21802

Again, correlation =/= causation.

We understand there is a degree of connection between consciousness and the brain. We do not understand to what degree.

We have cases where people have little to no brain matter who go on to live normal lives. There are cases of incredible brain injury in which people suffer little to no cognitive deficits.

How can that be possible if the brain is responsible for consciousness?

I'm not saying I understand it. I'm saying you (we) do not. So for you to go and say definitively the brain is responsible for consciousness is unfounded.

>>21803

the second anon isn't me

but you agree with me that brain is responsible let's say about 99.99% of cognitive functions

then how quran says that it's the heart neglecting the fact that brain is almost responsible for all our awareness and thinking ?

>>21804

I do not agree. To say that the brain is RESPONSIBLE for cognitive function is baseless, because, as I've said twice now, there are documented cases of people with ~3% brain matter getting PhDs in mathematics.

A man lacking 97% of his brain with full consciousness goes directly against the notion that a fully functional brain is responsible for 99% of cognitive function.

You are pointing to correlation and causing it causation.

It is likely that consciousness is something immaterial, and its function corresponds to parts of the brain in most people, but we cannot say the brain causes consciousness.

>>21805

would you mind telling me who are those people ??

>>21806

Why not research my claim independently?

http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/Science_No-Brain.pdf

http://rifters.com/real/articles/Oliveira-et-al-2012-RevisitingHydrocephalus.pdf

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12301-man-with-tiny-brain-shocks-doctors/

https://www.broadinstitute.org/bios/nick-patterson

>>21796

>ibn katheer

Can you show me the exact sentence where Imam Ibn Kathir is taking that literally? I don't see it.

Anyway,

So your problem is with Ibn Kathir, not Allah swt….

>>21807

The summary of cases you involved is a case named hydrocephalus which means most of brain is replaced with fluid (CSF)

which has no cognitive function of course

But our brain has the ability to reorganize it's neurons so the remaining neurons are able to some degree to perform the other functions accomplished by destroyed neurons

So it stays brain who thinks and control everything even in your articles

You said there is a mathematician who has a tiny brain , is it so hard on you to give me his name ?

>>21807

>research my claim independently

That's not how it works. If you make a claim, it is up to you to prove it. I would expect a "med student" to know that. You don't say "I'm Batman. Prove me wrong. PROTIP: You can't." You say "I'm Batman" and then prove it by showing us the bat cave.

Can i have a reply to this: >>21808

Please.

This is a tempest in a teapot.

>>21811

this

I swear to Allah , i just want to become more faithful , and this question is the most annoying thing in my life right now , i want someone to answer it

i asked many sheikhs about it and all i got from them is something irrational because they don't know much about medicine , or just "allahu alam"

so i came here to ask , and yet didn't get any answer , is it so hard to find a simple answer ?

>>21816

>>21816

Bro chill out.

Please show me precisely where Imam bin Kathir said this?

And

As Allah increases (or auothubillah decreases) humans in knowledge in various areas our understanding of the Quran might change. The possibilities for your problem are thus:

1.) modern science as we know it is wrong.

2.) you misunderstand the tafsir you cite.

3.) perhaps we've never truly understood the verse until now and maybe now we need to revisit our understanding of the verse.

>>21817

Akhi , you don't even need ibn katheer , in ayah , it's very obvious

1-didn't they go through earth so they have hearts they think with or ears they hear with

2-it's not their eyes blind but the heart within their chests

It's very obvious to anyone that the ayah is implying heart is used for thinking

(Ij n first part of ayah ,there is a link between heart and thinking like the link between ears and hearing , and in the second there is a confirm that it's heart within the chest)

And I'm native Arab , and I don't think there is NO other understanding of the ayah that imply brain could be responsible for thinking

So someone please explain how the heart "muscle" is used for "thinking" ?

also where is anon who said there is a mathematician who have little brain ? , if he don't give me a name I will consider him a lier

>>21809

Our brain has the ability to reorganize but what does it say about how much of the tissue is required? To what extent? What does it say about correlations with grey matter and iq?

>>21811

Your example does not apply. The gold standard of any applied science is independent verification. If I make a claim that you CAN verify with a simple google search, it means more than me providing you what could be potentially be cherry picked content.

>>21825

Another reason why I didn't provide sources. Because even when you do, people don't bother to check them. See the last link.

This just proves that you really aren't interested in the evidence. So why provide sources to someone who isn't willing to do a simple google search to independently verify?

>>21827

>If I make a claim that you CAN verify with a simple google search

Literally anything can be verified with a simple Google search. Flat earth? Verifiable! Round earth? Verifiable! Humans from monkeys? Verifiable! 6 day Creation? Verifiable!

You need to cite your sources when you make a claim.

>>21828

It's only verified if you accept the evidence ikhwan.

>>21825

Sup.

Im that guy. I'm a revert with moderate arabic comprehension but my wife is arab. Neither of us see this problem, bro.

>1-didn't they go through earth so they have hearts they think with or ears they hear with

>2-it's not their eyes blind but the heart within their chests

>It's very obvious to anyone that the ayah is implying heart is used for thinking

The heart doesn't really think, neither is it really blinded. These are both figurative. What I see in the English translations is "understand" not "think."

How is this different than calling the hearts "hard?" People that reject Allah swt don't literally have rock hard hearts.

>>21827

>but what does it say about how much of the tissue is required?

Akhi , i think it's variable from person to another of course , whatever the mass needed for a full functioning brain , it stays brain that gives us awareness and perform all cognitive functions , you hadn't provided any evidence that heart has a cognitive neural activity , i think that it's just a muscle pumps blood through our bodies

n.b : you must give me evidence not telling me to google it , you don't say something illogical and tell me to search it , give me a direct evidence

and i don't think that there is a mathematician that have no brain THIS IS SOMETHING ILLOGICAL AND IMPOSSIBLE and you said that giving no evidence

>Another reason why I didn't provide sources. Because even when you do, people don't bother to check them

who told you that i won't check your sources ? , i have read all the PDFs you included

and even if i wouldn't read your sources , remember you are doing this for Allah and maybe someone else wants to check your talk if it's true or not.

>>21830

thanks for your answer

but i think blinded means that there "thinking" or understanding is blinded not there eyes

like i say someone has a sick mind

of course i don't mean that he has a brain infection or something , i mean he is an evil man

it's just a metaphor "استعارة"

in arabic balagha "بلاغة"

it's named "استعارة"

and it's very common in quran

>>21841

>but i think blinded means that there "thinking" or understanding is blinded not there eyes

>I think

There's not much basis to think that, imo. You should contact some more mashayakh. As far as I know this ayat has never been a stumbling block for anyone else in 1438 years.

sorry for "there" instead of "their" , i was very sleepy

>>21843

>There's not much basis to think that

Akhi , it's very very obvious , and many shiekhs and mazaheb believes that it's the heart who understands and thinks

http://www.bayanelislam.net/Suspicion.aspx?id=01-01-0065&value=&type=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZV441keFWK8

and look for fatwa i include later , also there is many sources but i don't want it to be a tl;dr

> As far as I know this ayat has never been a stumbling block for anyone else in 1438 years.

that's because arab thought that heart is thinking , not brain ,so it's not a big deal for them , and now after they saw heart transplanting and patient awareness still the same , yes it became a stumbling block for many

and if you just search you will find many muslims talk about this issue , so it's a real question and asked by many

http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=121008

http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=184759

those are just two questions from many , and many of my friends asked me this question

so , im not and individual it's been questioned a lot and yet there is no real answer

i asked many shiekhs about this , all i got is a false proof "like the mathematician" or giving a long talk with no answer , so i came here , hoping to get an answer

I've heard it so many times from different Oulama' that everything in the Quran and 'Ahadeeth are always taken for their literal meaning.

There are a lot of verses in the Quran that state that the heart is the organ responsible for thinking (in many different words that has the meaning of thinking), you will never find a verse in the Quran that says that the thinking happens in the brains or heads -or at least in the heads- they all say that thinking occurs in the heart.

>>21861

yes that's what i say , and that's what i want to understand

how a muscle can think ?

>>21861

>I've heard it so many times from different Oulama' that everything in the Quran and 'Ahadeeth are always taken for their literal meaning.

In the Quran Allah says that some verses are allegorical.

>>21860

Man, these are super literalist positions. That's extremism, mayne.

Zakir Naik says the verse is allegorical.

>>21865

SubhanAllah

The heart has neurons and is indeed the center of consciousness.

I also googled and found many instances where people have had changes of personality with heart transplants.

2nd brain in the heart

Donor's heart goes on with Burger Rings craving

By Richard Noone, DailyTelegraph

December 22, 2009 3:34pm

IT seemed too real to be mere coincidence - and it brought joy to Kaden Delaney's family.

Kaden's parents Greg and Shelley spent two years finding David Waters, whose life was saved when he received their son's heart after he died in a car crash. But in an exchange of emails they learned Mr Waters amazingly had developed a taste for Burger Rings - which was Kaden's favourite snack treat.

The Delaney's second eldest son was left brain dead after rolling his brother's car into an embankment near their home in Orange, in central west NSW, in April 2006. In line with his wishes, they donated the 17-year-old's heart, lungs, liver, pancreas and kidneys.

Two years and countless internet searches later, Mrs Delaney tracked down Mr Waters, the recipient of Kaden's heart.

The 24-year-old from Adelaide suffered a stiffening of the heart ventricles and had months to live.

When they began email contact Mr Waters asked: "Did Kaden like Burger Rings? That's all I seemed to want to eat after my surgery."

Mrs Delaney responded: "I have been informed by a reliable source - Talby, (Kaden's brother) that Kaden loved Burger Rings."

Mr Waters replied: "I certainly think I have got some traits from him, Burger Rings right after the op, I never used to eat them before."

The theory the brain is not the only organ to store memories or personality traits and memory as a process can form in other parts of the body such as the heart has been coined "cellular memory".

The most famous reported case was American Claire Sylvia, a heart-lung transplant recipient, who documented her sudden craving for beer, chicken nuggets and green peppers in a best-selling memoir after discovering her donor was an 18-year-old male who died in a motorcycle accident.

Westmead Millennium Institute professor and president of the International Transplantation Society Jeremy Chapman said the phenomenon had not been proven.

"There is no scientific basis of such a claim," he said. "There's so much fiction around transplants."

Mr Waters has since met the Delaney family and has happy snaps with Kaden's sister Kyeema. Shelley was pregnant with her at the time of Kaden's crash.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/donors-heart-goes-on-with-burger-rings-craving/news-story/c4e8230cc5ce1c1f73fdcc490ba6f9e3

ALLAHU AKBAR

SubhanAllah