/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

I feel like if hillary won most American 'muslims' wouldn't behave like they are doing now and that is hypocrisy

>>17769

I have no desire to change the US system of law. Freedom of religion is a fundamental right in the US and I plan on keeping it that way. I would no more let someone take it away from me than I would allow it to be taken away from someone else.

>>17769

>Democracy is a flawed system and inferior to what we have. I honestly believe most Muslims I know prefer it to the Sharia. I am convinced of it when I hear to what they are saying.

It's because the ones shouting for sharia are usually nutjobs I don't want running the country.

>>17780

Is that suppose to defend the abandonment of basic creed in your religion to accepting Man made laws over the laws brought down by Allah (swt)? Shariah has a court of scholars and rulings that are based on the Quran and Sunnah. I already know many Muslims (Ikwhanis, Sufis and tablighis mostly) prefer secular Democracy to Sharia. They probably won't all admit it, but their own words are evidence.

>>17780

The laws are not made by that person that you dislike though. He cannot change them or interfere with them.

>>17769

>>17781

The law is the law. If you have a problem with the laws of the United States, then all you need to do is work with your Congressman to change the law. However, I would not expect shariah in the US because that would be a violation of the First Amendment's religion clause.

>>17787

I'm not expecting Shariah in the US or complaining about US law. I was born here and have no option at the moment, but to remain here. I stay away from US politics because a Muslim has no place in the jurisprudence of men without Allah(swt). Muslims who are majority in their countries and prefer secular government, that is another story.

I'm muslim and didn't vote, but I wanted Trump to win.

This country was headed down the same slippery slope regardless of who won, the only real difference between them is how fast it gets there.

>>17792

There are many ways a slippery slope can slide. Trump's slope is different than Hillary's, but it's a slope nonetheless and I'm not looking forward to where this nation will be in 4 years.

>>17795

Every empire rises and falls in time.

Unlike Obama, I'm expecting some real changes in the direction this country takes.

Inshallah the fallout, both here and in Europe, will be the wake up call the Ummah desperately needs.

>>17796

Obama has been a fine President and has accomplished much in his 8 years. I'm not sure what you mean by "the wake up call" as we've never been asleep.

OP, you're talking pre islam and sassanid. Abu bakr wasn't even muslim yet. His hadith may be sahih but non muslim is still non muslim.

>>17797

His presidency has seen the ME descend further into chaos. Millions of our brothers, most of them healthy men, are fleeing into Turkey and Europe, causing further conflict with the native population.

Syria and Libya have descended into war. Iraq has gotten worse. Saudi's still at war in Yemen. France is under martial law, and the immediate futures of Eygpt, Turkey, Lebanon and Germany are not looking too good.

The truth of the matter is that muslims are asleep. It's easy enough to blame our troubles on the west, on the sykes-picot division and Israel, and they really are to blame to a major extent, but the real root of these issues is the general ignorance of muslims themselves.

>>17808

None of that has anything to do with Obama.

>general ignorance of muslims themselves

Educate us, oh enlightened one.

>>17811

I say that because a distressing number of muslims nowadays are looking to the west to solve their problems. Refugees are fleeing en masse from the fire to the frying pan. Many of us here have thrown our hat in with leftists that only support muslims because they see us as "underdogs" or marginalized minorities, not because they actually understand or agree with our beliefs.

My point is, we shouldn't need to look to the west for safety or an answer to our troubles. We already have a solution, we just forgot how to properly implement it.

>None of that has anything to do with Obama.

But it does. Under whose orders was Ghaddafi killed? Under whose tenure did the US send aid to "moderate rebels" and Kurds in Syria?

He didn't start the fire, but he fanned the flames.

>>17812

>We already have a solution

Pray tell, what would that be?

>But it does

No, it doesn't. Obama opened up the UN to Gaddafi, which allowed him a nearly 2 hour speech before the general assembly.

His overturn and death was a direct result of the Arab Awakening, which had nothing to do with Obama or his administration.

>>17797

Obama was worse than Bush, except you were asleep because Obama has a pretty face and knows how to talk nicely. His drone program is just one example. Or the surveillance. If Bush did this people would be in the streets protesting. Trump at least now gives back an ugly face to ugly politics.

>>17848

>except you were asleep

That's a pretty big assumption there, friend.

Bush gave us the USA Patriot Act and excused torture, not to mention using lies to get us into an illegal war. Bush was a war criminal and was responsible for the surveillance of US citizens. Obama ended much of the Bush policy and tried to heal the wounds Bush caused.

I am never swayed by a pretty face or smooth speech.

>>17871

> Obama ended much of the Bush policy and tried to heal the wounds Bush caused.

What and how? As far as I can tell he continued in his steps and didn't end anything you mentioned.

Many civilians have been killed from U.S drone attacks, and it is indefensible.

>>17805

I'm not following your point. I have only seen consensus from scholars that a woman should not be appointed a leader. The hadith mentioned "any people" who did what the Persians did.

>>17769

So why are all the Islamic theocracies mostly terrible? Why don't you go and live in one?

>>17979

>whoever votes for a women is no Muslim

I didn't realize voting could strip one of their Islam.

Then again, I assume by now that pretty much everyone on this board thinks they're the only Muslim and everyone else is not. This is why schisms happen.

>>17982

Some salafis believe voting makes you a murtad.

>>17985

Well, they'd be wrong. Voting is not in their 10 nullifiers of Islam.

>>17986

It's shirk according to them.

>>17987

Awfully strange considering a rightful Caliph must be accepted by the people, which isn't dissimilar from voting.

>>17992

Aaah. You're assuming they're even vaguely learned people.

>>17994

I do try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Kindness can sometimes be a curse.

>>17982

1. Men are in charge of women, because God has made some excel (faddala) some of the others [4:34].

I am a Muslim who takes the Quran seriously unlike you it seems.

But if you want to fallow some harlot into hell be my quest.

>>17997

The President isn't the leader of the United States and, thus, a woman can be President. 4:34 applies only to Caliphates and Kingdoms, of which the US is neither. The Constitution, not the President, governs the United States.

However, the election is over, so it doesn't really matter.

Also,

>harlot

MGToW, plz go.

>>17999

The President isn't the leader of the United States

I think you should go back to school, you sound like a complete idiot.

>>17977

I would go and live in Saudi Arabia. I have met Saudi people my age that were here in the US for University. They were a little more lenient and tolerant than me on many issues and still preferred Saudi to the United States. I have also seen Western Muslims who are living in Saudi and have nothing but good to say about it. Of course, it won't be perfect, but we should prefer the access to Islamic knowledge, the closest system to Sharia, and the spiritual environment to the land of shirk.

>>18002

"We the People" are the leader of the United States. The President is the commander-in-chief of the military and the people's representative to other nations. The President isn't even allowed to make laws.

Maybe you should read our Constitution.

>>18004

Saudi has oil money and still has poverty problems. Not to mention that they are incompetent with the hajj, often killing pilgrims. And add to the fact that it's rulers are hypocrites, nobody likes a king that is a puppet of america. The arabian peninsula and it's oil belong to all muslims in the world.

ﻗﺎﻝ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ : ﺗﻐﺰﻭﻥ ﺟﺰﻳﺮﺓ ﺍﻟﻌﺮﺏ ، ﻓﻴﻔﺘﺤﻬﺎ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ

The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him: You [will] invade the Arabian Peninsula, and Allah will open it [conquer]

>>18008

You are a [social epithet] or some sort of jew troll aren't you?

Nobody makes laws in the USA, they make bill's, any US citizen can make a bill, are you telling me every one is the leader in the US or maybe you had no idea how a bill gets passed before you made that child like statement?

>>18016

If the people want a bill introduced to Congress, they contact their Congressman. Congress then deals with the rest of it by working with the people of the United States.

Congress makes the laws and laws start as bills.

The People of the United States are the leaders of the United States. The President is a public servant to the People. Of course not every individual is a leader. We are a collective representational Republic.

You really don't know anything about the United States, especially if you think the President is some kind of God-King.

>>18014

Inshallah mekka, medina and quds will be free.

>>18016

>>18017

America is not a muslim country and both parties kill muslims so why are you arguing?

>>18022

The American military kills Muslims, but not every American is in the military. I'm American and I've never killed anyone in my life.

>>18024

We are both cogs in the machine my brother.

>I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) say, “Whosoever of you sees an evil, let him change it with his hand; and if he is not able to do so, then [let him change it] with his tongue; and if he is not able to do so, then with his heart — and that is the weakest of faith.”

>>18025

Unfortunately my tongue and my heart is all I've got. I have the freedom to speak and I use it, but standing up against the military is treason.

>>18004

>Saudi Arabia

>spiritual environment

lmao

they've turned mecca and medina into disneyland

>>18027

It's a terrible shame isn't it?

>>18031

… wut?

>>18031

>brits

>masterminds

They were used by the zionists. They were who they parleyed with when the Ottoman Sultan Abdulhamid II refused to sell out to them.

>>18042

qafir

>>18027

Which country would you prefer when it comes to implementing Shariah and gaining knowledge in the religion?

I don't waste my time trying to defend the Saud family, but don't forget the Ulema have a say in policies within the country. Many of the Sauds are social liberals that spend much of their time in Western countries that disagree with some of the more strict policies in the country.

>>18011

>they are incompetent with the hajj

I know people who have been to Hajj the last couple years and they have only praise for what they have done to make the trip easier and accessible for Pilgrims. You can join in with the Shi'a if you want and accuse them otherwise. Have you been?

>>18076

saudi and their clerics are taghut, all dogs of zionists and america

al saud are jews who occupy mecca and medina, this is worst than quds

>>18076

Their prisons are full with Ulema.

>>18077

The Sauds who support the religion and give scholarships to Muslims from even the smallest, poorest countries on earth to come and get an education at the University of Medina? You are talking about a large family and they don't all have the same opinion.

Which clerics are you calling taghut and dogs?

>>18093

>The Sauds who support the religion and give scholarships to Muslims from even the smallest, poorest countries on earth to come and get an education at the University of Medina?

That's called spreading wahabism.

>Which clerics are you calling taghut and dogs?

All of them.

>>17769

Prove democracy is haraam. Picking leaders and laws that aren't mentioned in the Quran or sunnah is mubah

>>18150

hmm, well lets think this through for a second.

>Shariah: Allah's Divine Law, given to us by the Prophet (PBUH)

>democracy: mob rule where the will of the lowest common denominator is law

hmm. ya you're right, cant see which way to go there /sarcasm. maybe not haram but certainly misguided

>>18155

I said picking leaders and laws that aren't mentioned in a text democratically is mubah. How is that against shariah? You haven't proven anything.

I'm saying if we have a leader picked by one king succeeding another or if we have a vote to pick our leaders, both are allowed. Or if we make laws on how we're going to tax people, or traffic laws however we want it's fine. Are traffic laws mentioned in Islam? Is it bidah to make our own traffic laws? Did Allah (swt) or Muhammad (saw) ever say don't pick your leaders by election? There was a vote for one the first four caliphs so it has more precedent than the Saudi king system.

Sure it's different if you're saying the punishment for crime x is y according to the Quran and Sunnah and then you decide to scrap that entirely or decrease or increase the punishment. Yes if a government says interest is halal, that is haram but if they don't do things like thie, then the government is good whether voted for, or born into it, or appointed by lot or whatever other system we have.

>>18158

Why is bidah seen by some muslims as a categorically bad thing when there's bidah in the Qu'ran it self?

>>18160

Well if you bring something completely new and foreign and pretend like it's what Allah (swt) decided for us then it's a problem. But there are differences of opinion about things like Mawlid. Also things like written Qurans, islamic universities, etc are linguistically bidah even though they're obviously fine and in the case of written Qurans and islamic universities positive innovations.

But we shouldn't be like some sects of Judaism that wear certain clothing or do certain things knowing that it came from later rabbis and treating it like it's equal to the Mosaic law or how prophets acted. Like the kippah/yammakah would be a bidah islamically since it doesn't go back to a prophet.

Innovation in terms of technology and other things are obviously fine

>>18162

You can have things that are completely new and foreign but totally in keeping with the spirit of Islam.

OTOH you can play clever word games and come up for justifications of suicide bombing schoolchildren.

If anyone talks about any sort of reform to adapt Islam to the modern world - say the explicit abolition of slavery, for example - they are condemned as innovators and worse.

I think the thing more influential Muslim scholars need to be asking themselves is: What would Muhammad (S.A.W) do?

Considering the Caliphate 1400 years ago treated it's non Muslim subjects better than the European colonialists did 100 years ago why are Muslim lands so backwards now?

Why are they so keen to reject any later philosophies but so keen to become the shallow consumerist drones we're warned not to be.

>>18150

you're right it's not haram. it's kufr

>>18163

A lot of reasons for this problem and you see the brash chauvinistic (in the original sense) mentality here with some posters, the "Islam is the only answer" crowd but not seeing how things like political Islam are a recent invention with many influences from foreign ideologies. It seems sometimes they only think of Islam and never God honestly. But it's more than a religious problem but also a cultural and economic problem. Economies are bad in the ME and governments could handle things better. In a certain sense, we're none the poorer for ignoring secularism (although it isn't ignored), we're poorer and more corrupt because we can't currently run governments and economies well. Just look at China. Successful despite not importing every foreign idea. Though we should be more moderate with many modern western ideas but not take them wholesale or unskeptically.

>>18164

Kufr is haram, silly. But again I haven't seen an argument against picking leaders and laws not mentioned in the shariah by voting. Nothing wrong with that islamically any more than having a king or an aristocracy. I wonder what these people expect governments to look like ideally. And again there was a primitive type of election with Uthman (ra). The pledging of allegiance to a khalifa is also very similar to the social contract.

Also Yusuf (as) worked for the Egyptian government and we can't work with secular governments?

>>18166

>Kufr is haram

False. A muslim who drinks alcohol is still muslim. A gay muslim is also still muslim.

>>18182

You're messing with me right?

Haram = forbidden and sinful

Kufr or disbelieving in Allah (swt) and Islam is forbidden and sinful

Yeah those people are still Muslim but that's not my point. Judging by other than Allah's judgment is kufr according to many scholars but then it would also be by definition haram too.

Kufr is always haram but haram isn't always kufr, sure. But again where is the proof that electing a ruler is haram and kufr or drafting a tax plan or changing the traffic laws?

>>18185

>Kufr is always haram but haram isn't always kufr

Yeah that's exactly what I meant lol.

>>18185

>But again where is the proof that electing a ruler is haram and kufr or drafting a tax plan or changing the traffic laws?

I agree there is nothing wrong with that as long as the country is not opposed to islam and is completely dependent.

>>18150

>Prove democracy is haraam

I agree with this article and many scholars who agree democracy is contrary (I don't listen to Ikwhanis btw) https://islamqa.info/en/98134

>>18099

>All of them.

Only a Rafidi would say this. In your opinion was Sheikh Albani a dog too?

>>18378

Sheikh Albani was against saudi arabia. I am not a filthy rafidhi.

this guy is right >>18150

you are wahabi saudi fanboi

>>18378

Albani and the other Wahhabis worked much like Khomeinists in trying to destroy wholesome Islamic Conservatism.

>Islamqa

Holy [foul language], get out of here. Go join your Iran funded Taliban Brothers in hell and blow yourself up. Preferably away from anyone with a soul.

>>18381

Admin Abuse

>>18384

It's not abuse. Attack the argument, not the poster has been standard since this board opened. Not to mention it's the 2nd ban for that guy for the exact same reason.

>>18077

At least they don't permit Iranians into Mecca.

>>18706

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/30/world/middleeast/iran-saudi-arabia-mecca-hajj.html

>>18711

The title says "Iran Bars Pilgrims From Traveling to Mecca for Hajj", that's after saudis and their incompetence killed over 2411 pilgrims, mostly iranian. You could say they banned them indirectly, but saudis can't explicitly prevent shias form doing hajj.

>>18715

About a year ago Iranians were banned from Mecca. It was a response to Iran banning imports from Saudi Arabia. Something about an embassy attack. The ban may have since been lifted, but I'm not sure.

>>18719

No, they never ever banned iranians. It was always iran that prevented it's citizens from going.

>>18724

That actually is correct. I misread a few things.

>>18715

they should be banned, Mecca is meant for muslims.

>>18797

Yes, If you read my earlier posts you would see that I agree with you.