/a/ - Animu & Mango

>>792728

>>792733

Incest between siblings is the purest form of love.

Been meaning to watch this for a while, largely for shallow reasons. Thread's been the nudge to finally get around to it.

>>801292

>I thought she was pretty annoying, she was a little too genki for my tastes

That might be true. I did skip through 90% of her scenes. I should have specified; I'm referring to her ero scene particularly. It was quite sweet and cute, I thought. Surely I can get your concession on that footnote? I'd be most interested to hear your reasoning otherwise if you're still at odds with this condition.

And while we're on the subject of this character, there was additionally a single other scene of hers which I want to mention, and that caught my attention. It wasn’t actually during her own arc. It was the arc of the yamato nadeshiko archetype, her half sister Kazuha. Autistic Shrinemaiden confronted her, Kazuha, about the sincerity of her sisterly devotion, and her real motives therein. This scene, and the shot in jpg related in particular, really stood out, and took me by surprise. Because this character had, up until this point, been portrayed, like you mentioned, as a single-dimensional genki archetype, who was, additionally, none too bright. But this shot starkly and suddenly contradicted both those heavily established traits. Look at the heavy shadowing on her face, the despondent, sad, and subtly chagrined expression. It seemed to imply her feeling some bitter envy, and even beyond that, it seemed to imply that she had, in the dialogue just previous, intentionally exploited her reputation for unintelligence to facilitate bringing attention to personal subjects she felt uncomfortable speaking about directly. So, definitely not such a simpleton after all. This seemed, in contrast to the writing and characterization in the anime thus far, unusually complex and meaningful. Unfortunately this development never really went anywhere. So maybe it was all just a fluke, and I was reading into things that weren't there.

>>801535

>I just rewatched it and I think it was good in that it incorporated her ususal childish attitude in a way that felt natural. It wasn't her heavy handedly acting the way she usually does, it felt as if there was something between her and Haru that wasn't there before. A new familiarity which had just been consumnated. Which is really driven home by Haru deciding to call her by her first name, thus cementing the state of their relationship.

I actually didn't put much thought into that particular scene as far the characterization went. I hardly even know what happened in their arc. Specifically, I just thought the "squeeze" thing was cute by its own merit, before and especially after the ero scene. It's nice to see some tenderness and intimacy surrounding an ero scene. You know, porn just tends to be quite dehumanizing by its nature.

>I wasn't familiar with this interesting depth of character you wrote about.

Like I said, I'm not even sure it was intentional. And if it was, nothing was done with it; it never remained a visible development in her character.

>When I think about it though, all of the ero scenes in this show were fairly well done, at least in portraying the relationships between the characters.

It could be true. Above all else I definitely don't linger on or try and absorb the ero scenes, and I actually don’t watch enough hentai to be in a position to make comparisons. One thing that stood out to me, and that I disliked quite immensely, was the overly detailed nipples. There was more detail on the nipples than there was on the girls’ faces. It looked weird, and, I thought, ugly. Just generally I have a very hard time becoming aroused by or interested in pornographic scenes spliced with a character-driven story. I’m just picky about these things. I need to feel like the sexual interaction is a marginally realistic depiction of what sex would look like, and how it would develop, between these characters. And that’s just not what porn, by its nature, is about: depicting slow, awkward sex between inexperienced 15 year olds. It’s about arousing the viewer. And, to me, that almost always feels very fake, and forced, and overblown, if not ugly and gross. Like I mentioned, that’s partially why I liked the intro and extro to Akira’s ero scene, if not the scene itself. It was gentler, and more intimate between the characters. And to me that just feels more realistic, and especially more meaningful; it’s definitely more of what I’m personally looking for in romance anime.

For some reason, I don’t even remember much about Haru and Sora’s sex scenes. I must’ve skipped through them, as well. I do remember the intro to the first one being rather stupid, with Sora just throwing herself at Haru. There’s no buildup, there’s no intimacy. She just dives on him and begs for sex. Because that’s her character. Because of reasons that occur before episode 1. And then there’s this ero scene, as if the two are both seasoned pornographic performers. As usual, it just feels silly and vulgar. And then, the next one: even though they have just started having sex with each other in the previous few days, suddenly they’re going to loudly fuck on the floor in the foyer where they can easily be heard and maybe seen. It’s just ridiculous. Maybe there was more depth to the ero scenes than what I noticed, but this is what I took away from it.

>Generally, the characters in Yosuga no Sora are all reasonably well fleshed out within their own routes, but not so in other routes. Sora is the only one who is continually fleshed out throughout the show, as we see her emotinal state as Haru goes with other girls change, and we learn more about her feelings for her brother.

I definitely liked Sora’s character, but not her development. And I disagree with you there. I don’t think she was developed well. Maybe it was better in the VN. I don’t know. For example, and like I’ve mentioned already, some of the best character development from Sora was only seen in the slideshow of images that play during the first set of ending credits. It depicts Sora and Haru actually living through the loss of their parents through a series of very evocative images. And I think this slideshow represents at least as much characterization and development of Sora as we get in the actual anime. It shows who she was before the tragedy, which is something we only a single scene of in the anime. And I feel the lack of these developments is really ashame, and that the story could have been made much more meaningful if it had depicted that full course, and that crucial element of the traumatic destruction of their family. I did like the ending quite alot, though. Even though the developments which led to the tension that was resolved in those scenes felt rushed, and forced, I still liked the resolution. It was nice.

>>801688

>detailed nipples

I agree on this 100%. It was uncanny valley tier. Also, the way tits seem to defy the laws of physics seriously threw me off. I distinctly remember Kazuha's bouncing several times at the fucking speed of sound just from being touched. Ridiculous.

>I definitely liked Sora’s character, but not her development

>There’s no buildup, there’s no intimacy. She just dives on him and begs for sex.

These two things are related. The reason why Sora's route was last was because the development occured spread out over the course of the show. What actually happened in the past, or how Sora reacted to it, isn't really important since the anime isn't about that. What is important is the state of Haru and Sora's relationship at the beginning of the show and how that relationship develops. One only needs to know about the past insofar as it informs their current relationship, which is touched on in the show. As far as the initial setup, most of the information one needs is contained within the first episode. Their parents are dead, they only have each other, they are going to live in a somewhat nostalgic place and Sora acts cold towards Haru. Those are the essentials. As the show progresses, you see more interaction between the two that sheds more light on Sora's feelings. A prominent example I have hazy memory of is in Nao's route, where there is evidence of Sora having a severe internal conflict over her brother's relationship, but in the end she accpets them in spite of herself. Things like this, that gradually occur over the course of the show and drip feed the viewer information about the dynamic between the siblings. All this having been done, the Sora route starts. Again, this is (I assume) why it was the last route.

They're just making use of a limited timeslot to convey as much information as possible. A lot of the information is not conveyed in dialog, either, but in simple motions or expressions, and one needs to infer their meaning, although they're usually pretty simple.

As far as the ero scenes are concerned, while I agree it was a bit sudden, the way they go at it the way they do is supposed to illustrate just how much tension had been bubbling under the surface for the whole show. If you remember, in episode 1, Haru imagines himself kissing Sora to console her, and is obviously flustered about it. There is also the flashback where they kissed as kids. This being in the common route, it's safe to assume that Haru harbored incestuous feelings for his sister throughout every other route, only in those ones he hid them. I imagine the viewer was supposed to pick up on this, and that there was supposed to be some buildup of anticipation for the imouto route.

At this point, though, I'm really just speculating. I think there was a fair degree of skill involved in directing this show on account of how much information is conveyed in so little time, but maybe I'm the one seeing things that aren't there.

I want to reiterate, though, that we mostly agree on everything. I share the more or less unanimous opinion in this thread that one long Sora route would have been far preferable to the omnibus format. There could have been more explicit characterization then, too, not just the roundabout shit I discussed earlier.

>>801978

Rotational velocidensity. But no he's silly and video players should never default to PNG for screenshots. Only time to do that is for image editing/stitching.

>>801941

>>801963

1/2

>As far as the initial setup, most of the information one needs is contained within the first episode. Their parents are dead, they only have each other, they are going to live in a somewhat nostalgic place and Sora acts cold towards Haru

>Sora acts cold towards Haru

Oh yea, that's right. I actually forgot about that. What I did remember was it being established quite early on, and bluntly, that Sora is "just into Haru." Or, that's at least how the reasoning behind that development felt to me. The tsun element was pretty thoroughly dispelled as a complete facade rather early, wasn’t it? I don’t remember there really being any particular point in the anime where we see, or rather discover, Sora developing feelings for Haru. It’s just there. I understand the freudrian implication of parents being dead, and blah blah blah, but we don't see any of that. So it doesn't feel particularly meaningful. It doesn’t feel as meaningful as it could, or even, as it should. In the context of the anime, Sora's interest in Haru feels rushed, and reminds one of all the other stupid harem self-inserting tropes with no depth to them. I definitely think the ‘tragic gravity’ of this story called for a more detailed and thorough development of the characters' experience in this regard.

> As the show progresses, you see more interaction between the two that sheds more light on Sora's feelings. A prominent example I have hazy memory of is in Nao's route, where there is evidence of Sora having a severe internal conflict over her brother's relationship, but in the end she accpets them in spite of herself.

Maybe the developments feel less rushed and blunt in the anime over Nao’s route. I don’t know. I skipped through that route really heavily. For some reason I have a strong dislike like of the megane archetype to begin with. Plus, ntr is gross and stupid. Plus, I really only care about the imouto route. The other characters are nothing to me. Their routes don’t exist.

>They're just making use of a limited timeslot to convey as much information as possible.

Limited time was definitely a problem. I’ll regret for years that the decision was made to stick to the fractured VN format instead of doing a truly legendary winmouto story. In a year or two I’ll have to do the imouto VN route coherently, and maybe I’ll have a better experience.

> If you remember, in episode 1, Haru imagines himself kissing Sora to console her, and is obviously flustered about it.

Yes, you’re right. I didn’t really register what that was supposed to convey. In between the gratuitous fanservice shots throughout that episode, I dismissed this scene as not having too much meaning behind it. Just an excuse to have an explicit kissing scene early on without having to tie it into the plot, I figured. And by the time I had gotten through the other routes to Sora’s episodes, I’d forgotten about it. I would tentatively go so far as to say this scene is inconsistently subtle, compared to other developments in the anime. On a similar note: Sora’s extended tongue in that shot was excessive. But with that nit pickery aside, it’s a very nice scene. I like it.

>There is also the flashback where they kissed as kids.

Another very nice scene. And I would have liked an entire episode revolving around it. An episode where we see Sora pre-tragedy, and before any sexuality or emotions build on her end in the relationship. It would be nice to see an initial context where Haru is the sole instigator. This would create an opportunity, later, for the reveal of Sora’s feelings to be more impactful, and more of a an actual surprise. And not only that, but also more ambiguous. Meaning, where you, the viewer, are genuinely left wondering if her feelings CAN be glamorized. If the death of the parents and the related sympathy had been developed in detail, it would be VERY nice to then feel a little torn, even a little disgusted, with what’s happened to Sora in the relationship. And this would then lend itself to a situation where the brutal vulgarity of an explicit porn shot- i.e. the Sora masturbation scene- could be utilized very effectively, assuming, that is, the absence of additional and unwarranted pornographic content. So then, in addition to providing that depth to Sora’s character developments, this plot layout would also provide additional depth, and realism, AND empathy on part of the viewer, to Haru’s later internal conflicts with the incest. Because we would, ideally, personally have already experienced that same uncertainty and disgust with the sexual element, building from genuine sympathy related to the parent’s death.

>>801941

>>801963

>>802006

2/2

>If the death of the parents and the related sympathy had been developed in detail, it would be VERY nice to then feel a little torn, even a little disgusted, with what’s happened to Sora in the relationship.

And then, coming off of this, one more thing I’d like to consolidate and clarify in the anime would be Haru’s developments with Sora within that aforementioned internal conflict about the incest: In my opinion, there needs to be no aggression from him, in anyway, towards her, ever. He needs to be completely straight shot “I love this girl with all my heart,” and so would not, in any situation, in any circumstance, ever do anything harmful towards her. The entire structure of the story almost requires that to be the ultimate answer and resolution. Therefore, the slapping and the sexual violence that we see from Haru in the anime inflates the drama at the expense of his character, and especially at the expense of the resolution in the end. Anger from him would be okay for drama, but definitely not to that extent. And with this, then also just further developing and establishing that odd combination of Haru’s pure, loving, brotherly, and, later, paternal as well as romantic devotion to Sora. In these ways, the sweet and heartwarming resolution could have been sweeter, heartwarminger, and more defined, more absolute, more tangible. Definitely more memorable that way, I think, to say the least.

So, it would be nice to see maybe just a slow, happy, family SOL episode punctuated by that one childhood kissing scene, and maybe one more like it: the end-credits slideshow-image of Haru visiting Sora in the hospital comes to mind, as well as the flashback scene of him meeting her in the home after she’s been away for awhile. Let’s do those scenes, but not flashbacks. Not slideshow. So, one childhood episode, and then another episode depicting the parent’s tragic death and the circumstances and developments surrounding it. So there’s at least two episodes, then there’s ep’s 1, 7, 10, 11, and 12 in the existing anime. So that’s seven episodes, total. And even then, we’re still 5 episodes short of the 12 episode anime. So that’s a problem.

>I think there was a fair degree of skill involved in directing this show on account of how much information is conveyed in so little time, but maybe I'm the one seeing things that aren't there.

Yes that’s definitely a possibility. I do consider that maybe somehow, despite appearances otherwise, I’m just not firing on all the cylinders that this anime requires to really comprehend. You know, at some level it does cross my mind that maybe maybe I’m just not as sharp as other people. Or maybe I’m going into it with too many expectations and preconceptions (i.e. I know it’s winmouto; I already have ardent feelings about tropes and other industry stuff, etc) which inhibit my absorption of the characters, story, plot, etc. I am frequently finding myself in this position with anime where I feel like I really could have done it better, and it does occur to me that maybe these feelings are a result of hubris and inexperience.

>I want to reiterate, though, that we mostly agree on everything. I share the more or less unanimous opinion in this thread that one long Sora route would have been far preferable to the omnibus format. There could have been more explicit characterization then, too

Absolutely. I love this silly genre. And I love the generalized aesthetic and tone of YnS, sans the porn and ntr. Really ashame.

>I was actually thinking of Kazuha's route, where he gives her a music box that we learn in Akira's route belongs to Sora. Meaning that Sora would have had to give it to him to give to her, in spite of Sora's own feelings for him.

I completely don’t remember this occurring whatsoever. I probably had my finger laying on the right arrow throughout all of it. Gosh, who would ever think that I’d finish the show and be unsatisfied? I’d laugh, but the robot would ban me.

>>802006

>>802009

>>802185

>A lot of the things are pretty subtle

On that note, I happen to be engaged in my semi-annual rewatch of this show right now, and something I caught during the Kazuha route was pic related, when Haru was gone for too long so she left the house and just started looking for him. When Akira asks her what she's doing, she begins to say "Haru is gone" but doesn't finish. To me, this indicates that a) she has a hitherto unseen degree of affection for Haru and b) she has reservations about her attachment to him. Just this little scene says a whole lot about her attitude towards Haru. And it isn't difficult to imagine how the deaths of their parents could be related to this. Also, the scene afterwards where they eat ice cream together is the fucking cutest. I don't know why, maybe it's because they're the same size or something. Christ almighty.

A second interesting thing I noticed is that there is a scene in that same episode where Kazuha comes to meet Haru after school, but his mind is on Sora because of the text she sent him. On it's own, this wouldn't mean much, but in episode 11, there is a scene almost exactly like this, only it is Haru coming to meet Sora, and rather than one of them being preoccupied, they both leave with one another right away. The contrast between Haru's relationship with the other girls and with Sora is stark and immediately visible. This also ties into the violence you mentioned earlier, and perhaps it's one of those "exterme love, exterme hate" kind of things. But that is beyond the veil of my spergery, and I won't weigh on it.

The characterization doesn't necessarily happen chronologically; a consequence of the omnibus format. By the end, though, you'll have a more complete picture than perhaps you had left the show with. Give it a shot, the whole way through, and see if it doesn't help you enjoy Sora's route more in the end.

I originally intended for this post to be short, but I think I've made every point I had to make.

>>801978

>>801979

>>801982

I set mpv to put screenshots into jpg format, that seems to have fixed it. I have no idea why the fuck it was almost 10 megabytes though.

>>802188

I don't understand the question.

>>802186

Because PNG compression takes time to do, which, you don't want your video player to freeze for a few seconds to take a screenshot. Your example reduces to 2.2MB with compression, which is still fairly large. PNG just compresses poorly for most images. The use cases are:

- Where transparency is needed

- Simple colour images like vector art

- During editing to avoid generational loss

- APNG

Funnily mpv defaults to JPEG in my case so I don't know why yours isn't. You can specify a compression setting for PNG too it's probably low/none by default.

>>802009

I hate to raise that demon but love triangles, break-ups and unrequited love don't cut it as NTR as far as I'm concerned. That requires an official relationship and deceitfulness within it. This anime has an uncertain MC and deals with dark themes fairly seriously so I'd be fine with it anyway even if I'm strongly into the happy-sappy vanilla stuff.

>>802185

>>802186

2/5

>A second interesting thing I noticed is that there is a scene in that same episode where Kazuha comes to meet Haru after school, but his mind is on Sora because of the text she sent him. On it's own, this wouldn't mean much, but in episode 11, there is a scene almost exactly like this, only it is Haru coming to meet Sora, and rather than one of them being preoccupied, they both leave with one another right away. The contrast between Haru's relationship with the other girls and with Sora is stark and immediately visible.

An interesting observation, and one arrived at undoubtedly through attentive and thoughtful viewing, motivated probably by a sincere infatuation with the core elements of this story. But in my opinion it’s still hardly worth sitting through 80 minutes of Kazuha’s route, plus, then, Sora’s, to see. Ideally this kind of character depth, as well as the focus on Sora and Haru, would be consistent throughout the entire anime. And that’s simply just not the case. Obviously because of the omnibus format for one, but additionally just for the lack of writing. For example, here as well:

>This also ties into the violence you mentioned earlier, and perhaps it's one of those "exterme love, exterme hate" kind of things.

I again believe you’re definitely giving the anime more credit for depth than was intended by even its creators. Like I’ve said, the violence definitely does not have a clear or specific explanation or resolution. This is especially the case in the anime, where the cause of the tension which resulted in the violence was a development between Haru and the student council president, a character he has just recently met, and who otherwise has almost no significance at any point in the plot. This particular development should probably have been relegated to the megane in the anime, and even then, the relationship between Haru and the Megane isn’t specific enough to provide a clear reason why her negative reaction to the incest would cause such a drastic revolution in Haru’s established character and his relationship with Sora. For example, it would be better to clearly establish beforehand that Haru’s relationship with the the student council president, or the megane, was of such a nature that he strongly relied on her for moral guidance or something of the sort. That would at least give a specific and relateable explanation for his reaction, instead of it being very generally explained as “a result of incest taboo.” I mean, that works; it’s not patently terrible writing, but it could easily be much more specific and meaningful.

And again, I don’t even think it’s necessary to go there. I think the drama and conflict in Haru and Sora’s romantic relationship at that point would be plenty emotionally engaging, without even bothering to take the conflict that far. Because it just complicates things needlessly, and raises questions and doubts in the viewer that are required to be answered later to little additional emotional impact. It actually subtracts from the core relationship that’s been developed, and redirects attention to very unpleasant feelings and thoughts. I.e. “Gosh, how could he hurt Sora?” “Poor Sora. I hope she’s okay. He didn’t bang her head against the headboard, did he?” “Are Sora’s feelings hurt? Will this change how she feels about her brother?” “Will this negatively impact her relationship with him?” “Is she going to lose interest in Haru, now?” And none of that stuff is addressed or sorted out in the anime. It’s just glossed over and forgotten about. But even if it was addressed, to what meaning? It just frays the core emotional content of the story, and inserts unnecessarily unpleasant feelings into it for little benefit. With parental death, and porn, and incest, there’s already plenty of dark, shocking content in this story. It doesn’t need more to be engaging. For further example, instead of using violence to ramp the drama there, the focus should rather have been on developing Haru’s internal conflict, between his sexuality and his familial devotion to his sister, a dynamic that was only very loosely implied. I mean, that’s just more interesting, more engaging, more meaningful, and also more coherent with the core themes of the story.

>>802185

>>802186

I’d like to maybe apologize at this point for being an argumentative pontificator. I hope it’s been empathetically apparent so far that my motivations are driven, at least partially, by a sincere and passionate interest in the core themes of this story. I’m interested enough in stories of this sort that I’m often led to pronounced disappointment, as well as an intense interest to try and recreate the story so that it realizes the true greatness that I feel it could have been, and that I feel is still “in there” somewhere. To my surprise, it’s been the case over the years that I very rarely find anyone who’s willing to engage me in these types of discussions at all, and never to this length. So I just wanted to mention my appreciation for your attention so far, and to recommend another anime which you might enjoy, and which you hopefully, if unlikely, have not already seen. Tasogare Otome x Amunejia.

1/2

>>802301

>>802302

>>802305

>I'm not interested enough to sit through several hours of non imouto routes.

I won't force it on you, but it's a little one sided to say that there isn't enough, or only sparse development in a show that you refuse to watch in it's entirety. It's true that you likely won't get much out of it, having already seen most of Sora's route, but a lot of the criticisms you levied in this thread were really just as a result of ignorance of the rest of the show. The points we've already agreed on notwithstanding, it's true that there was development that contexualized Sora's route and made it more satisfying in the end. I've provided two examples, but there are plenty of other, smaller ones throughout the show. But I won't belabor the point. My memory of the VN is hazy, but you'll likely still have the same problems with it, only to a lesser degree. It was an enjoyable experience overall, though.

>Yes, but which is it?

It's pretty unambiguously both.

>Or maybe it's a reference to the VN

If I remember correctly, that scene couldn't even be in the VN because nearly the entire thing is from Haru's perspective.

>It's just vague, and so ultimately meaningless

I don't understand how you could possibly arrive at this conclusion.

Not everything necessarily needs to be 100% explained in clear cut dialog to be understood. A passing impression is all that's needed. All you need to do is see that scene, and have the little idea of the degree of Sora's affection and subsequent actions planted in your mind for the viewer to be informed as to what stands between the characters. One can easily infer all that from that one scene. And I say that the scene has that meaning, because there is no other reason for it to be there. Unless we are to assume that the directors are literally retarded, and just throw scenes in on no particular basis, and that their relative sucess with this show was simply benign. What's more, there are many scenes just like that all throughout the show. Many are more minor, but they all lend to a buidilng impression of what Sora and Haru's relationship is really like throughout the show, and practically none of them are designated "character developoment scenes;" there is often a small degree of inference needed. Just like in interaction with any human being or any representation of a human being. The nice thing about anime, though, is that there is usually very little inference needed, like in the case of YnS.

>has no specific answer in any episodes down the line

There certainly was no "answer" to that specific scene, but that scene contributed to the development of Sora as a character, (because you learn things about her) and the "answer" to that is Sora's route. Where all of the tension between Sora and Haru, and all the emotions that we know they feel because we observed them feeling them in other routes, come to a head. To say it has no impact on development because it's vague is patently wrong. Often it's the mark of high artistic achievement (not necessarily in YnS's case) to be able to have a plot without explicating every little thing for the viewer, and leaving some to inference. Would you say that, for example, Texhnolyze was a show with undeveloped characters, or with "meaningless" scenes because the character's relationships are not always (indeed almost never) explained in clear verbiage, and is left to the inference of the viewer? Other examples might be Serial Experiments Lain, or maybe Welcome to the NHK.

>Put more thought into the characters

I've done comparatively little "reading in" in my posts, just as there is compartively little reading in needed to enjoy the show. Key word: little. There is some. You just need to be open to other means of transfering information to the viewer other than cut and dry dialouge. More subtle things can convey the same meaning, and it is the meaning that is important. You just need to pay attention and watch the whole show

>>802310

Yeah fair enough it technically needs the tag. I guess what I'm saying is that it doesn't deserve association with most of the genre because of the story and characters involved. They're imperfect and messed up, usually express regret to the bad things they've done, and even though it depicts things explicitly it's not got the same intent or outright meanness to it even if it might be provoking to the viewer.

Contrast that with works that literally exist to show a relationship and mercilessly destroy it. A separate tag would be helpful.

>>802464

>>802544

2/3

I believe this is the cause of the miscommunication:

>>When Akira asks her what she's doing, she begins to say "Haru is gone" but doesn't finish. To me, this indicates that a) she has a hitherto unseen degree of affection for Haru and b) she has reservations about her attachment to him.

>Yes, but which is it? Maybe it’s intended to mean one or the other, or both. Or maybe it’s a reference to a development in the VN which was depicted and thought out more thoroughly.

I made this statement about the scene as an example and segue into then arguing my more general opinions about Sora’s character development in the anime overall. It was a bad, and just incorrect, example to use. If I can justify my mistake beyond skipping through the episode, it was probably about 4 in the morning when I wrote that. So now I will make the same argument again, without that misleading ramp:

Referring back to that scene you mentioned with Sora and Akira, we know that Sora has some indecisiveness or internal conflict about her relationship with Haru. However, the nature of these feelings, why they’re there to begin with, and then their subsequent development throughout the plot, are poorly developed, and left unspecified, respectively. This is what I’m trying to get across when I say that that the scene conveys “vague” information, and this is what I mean when I say there is a lack of “clear and coherent development.” To be more specific, and continuing to use that single scene as an example: We know or suspect Sora has feelings for Haru. Well, why does she? This would be the depth, the “why.” The anime does provide some reasons. We know about the parents’ deaths. And there’s the childhood kissing flashback scene. This, to me, is inadequate depth. I explain: In regard to the parents, this isn’t something we see and feel for ourselves in this story. That emotional content is not given to you, to the viewer, on your biological RAM (to use the analogy again). So, as a viewer, we’re in a position where we have to go, ourselves, into our minds, and fill in blanks, fill in emotional content, fill in meaning. And then, in regards to the childhood kissing scene: This was a good scene but I just feel like it’s not enough. There needs to be more detail, more characterization, for it to really feel meaningful.

So, it’s just one, quick flashback and a piece of infodump in ep 1 (and the credits slideshow). And that’s essentially everything we’re building Sora’s character from. It’s not very engaging. I’m not arguing that there needs to be more explicit verbage. There just needs to be more character content. I just want more. I want to be more engaged with this character. (Digressing: at this point in the story, Sora is still primarily just an archetype. There’s not that sense of “depth” to the characters, that illusion that “this is a real person.” Generally speaking, I think there is a lacking distinction that needs to be made between “personality” or “archetype,” and depth.)

And then, moving past the prior character development, we can also look at the subsequent character development, which is, even, much weaker than the prior. If we look at Sora’s character development in regards to this indecisiveness or internal conflict from that point forward: she changes very drastically as a character, for apparently no reason. That scene depicts her as indecisive, and then a few route-episodes later, she and Haru are engaging in seminal coitus in front of shocked acquaintances, and this doesn’t bother Sora at all. Why? We don’t know. It’s not specified. It’s just there for no reason. Because it’s convenient for drama or fanservice or whatever.

>So, it’s just one, quick flashback and a piece of infodump in ep 1 (and the credits slideshow). And that’s essentially everything we’re building Sora’s character from.

>and this doesn’t bother Sora at all. Why? We don’t know. It’s not specified. It’s just there for no reason. Because it’s convenient for drama or fanservice or whatever.

So when I say “vague and meaningless,” these are the specific things that I’m referring to in the anime. I hope that clears things up.

>>802464

>>802465

3/3

>Often it's the mark of high artistic achievement (not necessarily in YnS's case) to be able to have a plot without explicating every little thing for the viewer, and leaving some to inference. Would you say that, for example, Texhnolyze was a show with undeveloped characters, or with "meaningless" scenes because the character's relationships are not always (indeed almost never) explained in clear verbiage

Texhnolyze is definitely a show that seems to have gone that extra mile to make sure the content was thoroughly meaningful and consistent. It’s not the same genre, so it’s hard to compare, but, as you mention, the thought and detail put into YnS is nowhere near what was done with Texh. Not even close to being comparable. (And, actually, speaking theoretically, I think Texh sought to accomplish much more than what a romance story is even capable of doing. Perhaps so at the expense of entertainment value to base plebs like me, but that’s beside the point). And, even though I didn’t enjoy the anime a whole ton, Texh is, in my opinion, probably the greatest anime ever made.

>I think that the studio did a damn good job with what they had: a romance anime based on a multi route VN.

>If you can't bring yourself to like it, there's not much I can do to change your mind.

I don’t want to leave the impression that I dislike like this work. Well, I do dislike some bits of it quite intensely (you know, imouto hitting, ntr, ugly porn shit, etc,) But speaking in terms of the essential fundamentals, I like it alot. I just can’t emphasize how much this type of stuff interests me. I’d go into detail about how much romance anime fucked up my adolescence, but I’ll spare you. So, anyway, while my behavior and tone here might sound scornful, it’s is matter of my wanting more of it. When I find something like this that I like, that I “see something in,” I can’t get enough. It’s never enough.

And my personal motives aside, objectively speaking, YnS has many outstanding aspects: some of the visual direction is very good; Sora’s design is fantastic; the music is great. It also came out at a time which allowed these positive elements to elevate the work to iconic status in the genre.

>It's been great fun

Thanks. But I’m going to have to apologize again for putting you in a bit of an awkward situation by continuing to post. As I’ve mentioned, my interest in this line of discussion is fairly ravenous; I am using it to refine my own thoughts about the anime. Pretty much any feedback I get will be turned to prompt that same purpose in myself. It’s as if I am absorbing others interest in the work to motivate the development of my own understanding. I was fairly certain the line of interest would fizzle after the last exchange, but apparently I was incorrect. So, there is of course no obligation, is simply what I’m saying.

1/2

>>802544

>>802545

>>802546

>We have miscommunicated drastically somewhere.

After reading your restructured argument, I can say that yes, we certainly did. I was under the impression that you believed that the characters were not developed well in the immediate context of the plot of the anime because they simply didn't express things "clearly" or in a cut-and-dry way. I see now that I was mistaken, and find myself in much closer agreement with you.

>This would be the depth, the “why.” The anime does provide some reasons. We know about the parents’ deaths. And there’s the childhood kissing flashback scene. This, to me, is inadequate depth.

It's certainly a very fair position to have that you would have liked for there to be more "contextualization" of the plot. I think that word describes what you're thinking of better than what I was thinking of before. Before I continue, though, I will point out that you seem to be forgetting one very important (albeit short) scene in episode 10, wherein there is a flashback to when Haru and Sora were young, and Sora had just been discharged from the hospital. When he sees her, Haru blushes and is obviously taken by her, and this when both their parents are alive. Haru later expounds on this by telling Nao that when Sora was discharged from the hospital, she seemed like a different girl to him. It provides some more information as to your question about why they have feelings for each other. Now, you may say that this is just a precious little, and that it doesn't do much for the characters. Again, that's a fair position to hold, especially for such a demonstrably true lover of imoutos such as yourself, but the crux of my argument is that any more than that isn't really necessary. What is provided over the course of the show is ultimately sufficient.

Let me elaborate. While I do agree, again, that seeing more backstory would have been nice, I think that the show stands perfectly well on it's own, without it. The show Yosuga no Sora is about the circumstances of Haru and Sora after their parents die. How they arrive at this situation is not, strictly speaking, part of the narrative. All one needs to know is the essentials, because beyond that the show is only concerned with how things develop after they move into their new house. That is where the show begins, after all. Those backstory essentials are delivered in the form of flashhbacks and what not such as what I described earlier. As the story progresses, you gain the central backstory to Sora and Haru which is pertient to the incest they engage in later in the plot (because again, that is what the whole show builds up to.) The characterization of Haru and Sora is worked into the other routes, so that when Sora's route arrives, it has the most impact and can be appreciated to it's fullest extent. The "meaning," or the "emotinal depth" you speak of, I believe is certainly there. It is spread throughout the show, embedded in the subtle interactions of the characters and the things they say to one another. While I agree there isn't much of it, it is there, and there is enough of it to make Yosuga no Sora stand on it's own two feet, as a complete story from beginning to end, such so that any further adornment is unneeded. We could talk endlessly about how it would have been better if there was more time to give to Haru and Sora, or how a full on Sora show would be much better (it would.) But in the YnS that exists now, I believe that the characters (especially Sora) are characterized well enough.

>If we look at Sora’s character development in regards to this indecisiveness or internal conflict from that point forward: she changes very drastically as a character, for apparently no reason.

It's a little bit disingenuous to disregard everything that happened in between those events that led to Haru and Sora fucking in the foyer. It didn't happen right after. As I've been arguing, there was plenty of buildup to the events of Sora's route, that's what the whole show was supposed to be. Sora's reaction to Haru's different girlfriends over the course of the show gets more and more agressive as the show progresses. The whole show is practically screaming at you that "Haru is going to fuck his sister" from episode 1. One might object that the way the show goes about it feels shallow, or not very meaningful or fleshed out, and again, I disagree for the afrorementioned reason in this post, which I won't repeat.

2/2

>>802544

>>802545

>>802546

>and this doesn’t bother Sora at all. Why? We don’t know. It’s not specified. It’s just there for no reason.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you mean to say that Sora's difference in temperament across routes is too inexplicable? That could be true, but let us remember that that is the purpose of a "different route": to explore different possibilites. The two possiblilities "what if Sora had been more aggressive about her feelings towards Haru?" and "what if Haru had a lessened resistance to his imouto-lust?" seem to me to be the two beginning premises of the Sora route as opposed to the other routes, just as the premise "what if Haru had taken pity on Akira" seems to be the premise of the Akira route. I'll reiterate, though, that character development across routes is perfectly valid, because they are still fundamentally the same characters, the changed variables notwithstanding.

To digress a bit, I think that this one one of the more glaring flaws of this show, namely that the routes are differentiated by the temperaments of the characters and not simply different turns of events. You may have noticed that those initial premises I posed for the different routes have quite large implications for the characterization of the characters involved. I would prefer if the show avoided this, because it only tends to muddy the idea of any given character that the viewer has formed. I also think, though, that it wasn't enough of a problem to detract noticeably from the characterization, hence my defense of it.

>>Would you say that, for example, Texhnolyze was a show with undeveloped characters, or with "meaningless" scenes because the character's relationships are not always (indeed almost never) explained in clear verbiage

My reasoning for making this point intially was rooted in our miscommunication, so I retract any argument I made by it. It was interesting reading your thoughts on it though.

>I don’t want to leave the impression that I dislike like this work.

The thought never once crossed my mind. When I said "bring yourself to like it," I was referring to the characteriztion, what we've been in disagreement about.

>I just can’t emphasize how much this type of stuff interests me.

Neither can I. Shame there's so little of it.

>When I find something like this that I like, that I “see something in,” I can’t get enough. It’s never enough.

I know the feeling. That's why I rewatch it so often. I tend to rewatch things often when I'm struck with infatuation for it, but YnS is by far my most rewatched show, perhaps followed by Barakamon.

>It’s as if I am absorbing others interest in the work to motivate the development of my own understanding.

I've thought more deeply about this incest anime over the course of these posts than I ever have. If I had read these posts before I had written them, I would probably be pretty taken aback at how much, and to what depth, I managed to write about it. So I've absorbed your interest to a certain extent, too.

>So, there is of course no obligation, is simply what I'm saying.

It's an imageboard, anon. Let's take it easy and post, so long as the posting stays fun.

>>802693

>>802695

1/2

> I will point out that you seem to be forgetting one very important (albeit short) scene in episode 10, wherein there is a flashback to when Haru and Sora were young, and Sora had just been discharged from the hospital.

You’re right, I did forget about that scene. I actually mentioned it in a post earlier, but then forgot about it in that argument.

>What is provided over the course of the show is ultimately sufficient.

I think you’re right to say “sufficient.” Given your arguments in these posts, I’d have to rewatch the entire show to make a case for it’s being less than that. I’d even be willing, at this point, to concede the writing in YnS being above average, for anime, in regards to character development. Surely there’s not a shortage of lazier, more cynical, and less coherent works than YnS.

>The "meaning," or the "emotinal depth" you speak of, I believe is certainly there. It is spread throughout the show, embedded in the subtle interactions of the characters and the things they say to one another. While I agree there isn't much of it, it is there, and there is enough of it to make Yosuga no Sora stand on it's own two feet, as a complete story

>Those backstory essentials are delivered in the form of flashhbacks and what not such as what I described earlier.

Without much of the criticisms of the writing that I’ve made, it might be more a matter of personal preference; it might be more a matter of my merely disliking the omnibus format. With the omnibus format aside, maybe the kind of slow and detailed character development that I feel like I need just isn’t very marketable. And beyond that, even, maybe it’s simply just not as entertaining or as engaging as I imagine. I’d have to go and actually write such a narrative myself to see for sure. I mean, if I was really serious, at this point I’d have go back through the entire show, and rewrite each scene, as well as write additional scenes from scratch. Interestingly, when I finished tasogare otome last year, and had subsequently undergone a similar exercise of detailed analysis with myself, I remember arriving at this same necessity. Though, oddly, it would seem, I suddenly don’t find the idea entertaining. However, it seems apparent to me that this my required next step in some form or another if I want to continue developing this whatever-it-is that I currently do when watching anime.

>The characterization of Haru and Sora is worked into the other routes, so that when Sora's route arrives, it has the most impact

It’s taken you enough effort, but I concede at this point that my impatience and intolerance caused me to miss scenes that would have added to the characters and the core story.

>As I've been arguing, there was plenty of buildup to the events of Sora's route, that's what the whole show was supposed to be. Sora's reaction to Haru's different girlfriends over the course of the show gets more and more aggressive as the show progresses.

This may be the case. Again a matter of my skipping through off-route character scenes and disliking the omnibus format.

>>802693

>>802695

2/2

>If I'm understanding you correctly, you mean to say that Sora's difference in temperament across routes is too inexplicable? That could be true, but let us remember that that is the purpose of a "different route": to explore different possibilites. The two possiblilities "what if Sora had been more aggressive about her feelings towards Haru?" and "what if Haru had a lessened resistance to his imouto-lust?"

Man, fuck VN adaptations.

>I think that this is one of the more glaring flaws of this show, namely that the routes are differentiated by the temperaments of the characters and not simply different turns of events. You may have noticed that those initial premises I posed for the different routes have quite large implications for the characterization of the characters involved. I would prefer if the show avoided this, because it only tends to muddy the idea of any given character that the viewer has formed.

I agree, and think my underestimation of the intended character development fell victim to that. Situational and varying character experimentation is definitely not the essential goal I seek when consuming stories. I’d rather describe it as seeking an illusory, or artificial, personal experience which contains some meaning that is vivid enough to actually permanently alter my experience of myself in this crummy 3d world. And this might be a flawed goal from the outset, where I’m attempting to use stimulation, or entertainment, to create real personal change that is, in actuality, impossible without work. Waxing philosophical, how nice it would be to have the skills necessary to reprogram swathes of humanity into a better mode with fun stories.

>>I just can’t emphasize how much this type of stuff interests me.

>Neither can I. Shame there's so little of it.

A fundamental flaw with romance, and to an even greater degree incest, is a limit in scope. There is only so far that a romantic story can taken. Eventually the feelings need to be consummated, the tension resolved, and so the story ended. This is, of course, an extremely persistent and observable problem in anime. Incestuous romance, should the genre even ever be able to really take root (and I imagine this is one of the primary, if less recognized, reasons why it hasn’t), will suffer from this problem even more. Because in addition to the innate limitations of romance, incest then has an additional set of implied surrounding circumstances and tensions that limit its variability greatly. And to attempt to stretch the scope of the story beyond those circumstances (taboo, forbidden romance, social and familial tensions, etc) trivializes the incestuous theme itself. Digressing, an interesting subject of investigation may be an exploration of the nature of why romance, despite possessing a nature of obsessive, fixated, passionate interest, is so limited in meaning. What is it that we’re seeking to gain? And why is that thing, once obtained, so absolutely boring that there’s almost no stories written about it?

>I've thought more deeply about this incest anime over the course of these posts than I ever have. If I had read these posts before I had written them, I would probably be pretty taken aback at how much, and to what depth, I managed to write about it.

Yes, that’s exactly the reasoning on my end as well. Good to hear. The enjoyment of argument itself then pushes me to expand and develop my thought in ways that I wouldn’t be motivated to do, or perhaps even capable of doing, otherwise. It’s not about being right. It’s an exercise. Digressing again, the most currently apparent fruit of this exercise in particular for me, and which has been the primary subject of this last exchange, has turned out to be something quite different than what I would have imagined. This being the personal trait I described earlier as “intolerance and impatience.” I recognize this trait as being characteristic of myself. “It just sounds like me.” I’m not sure what I’ll do with this observation, but it’s definitely pertinent to my application of myself in this hobby, and is something to keep in mind. So, thanks again for your interest.

I'm just watching it for the first time. I'm only up to episode 3 so far so I'm not reading the thread to avoid spoilers, but I'm enjoying it a lot. Sora really is very cute.