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/ratanon/ - Rationalists Anonymous

Remember when /ratanon/ was good?

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File: 948411de713872c⋯.jpg (44.08 KB,600x751,600:751,53hfw74cferdf5gh655yt.jpg)

 No.14029 [Open thread]

What's your EA horror story, Ratanon?

I've read and heard countless reports on toxic power games, nepotism, lack of transparency, skyrocketing burnout rates, fake empathy, sexual misconduct allegations or exploitative practices. What's going on?

Is it because every big movement attracts Normies (occasional contributors), Nerds (seekers of meaning) and Sociopaths (malevolent influencers/leaders), but EA particularly attracts and rewards game-playing Sociopaths, as the cold utilitarian framework gets (poorly) extrapolated on organizational and interpersonal dynamics?

How does the EA culture compare to academia, freelance work or IT industry in these regards?

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 No.14113

It's possible that the number of sociopaths is going up though, I've been somewhat out of touch with EA recently

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 No.14114

>>14111

Those don't necessarily contradict each other - you've got a movement with a lot of libertarians, aimed at helping poor people. People make significant personal sacrifices that are ultimately just as driven by signaling as everything else, but perhaps more visibly so because of poor social skills. And maybe people dumb it down in an attempt to be more accessible without properly tackling elitism.

But I'm not involved in any EA communities so I wouldn't really know.

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 No.14122

>>14111

>Personally, almost all my experiences have been good, and I'm happy the movement has proceeded the way it has.

What have you liked about it?

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 No.14124

>>14106

It doesn't deserve to be popular.

Rats and adjacents by way of their rationalist outlooks absolutely suck at aesthetic, holistic and passion-driven things.

Tainted good isn't the same as untainted good. Surely you see the stratification.

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 No.14127

>>14124

Is this actually the case? Plenty of people who would be rat-adj today had decent to great aesthetics, like some golden age science fiction authors. At the same time even the most anti-rationality blue tribe members suffer from bad aesthetics similar to those of Bay Area rats. I am thus inclined to blame blue tribe memes for the aesthetics problem and not assume it is inherent. You can't make an awe inspiring religion substitute out of the stuff, which is why Humanism and EA are so stale.

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 No.14088 [Open thread]

>There are certain people for whom it is not the right decision to donate a kidney. An incomplete list:

>…

>People who wish to save their kidney to increase the chance that family members or friends make it to the creation of a superintelligence.

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 No.14110

>>14108

How bad is your memory? Could anything else has caused it?

What was the surgery?

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 No.14115

>>14109

Valid methodological criticisms, however it's treated as common knowledge among the surgeons I know that every instance of general anesthesia is using up a certain resource.

>>14110

It's pretty bad. Before, I could remember pages of text verbatim (no superhuman von Neumann shit, but occasionally it worked), or retell the few minutes of conversation. Now I'm like an animal that has no ability to mark stuff as "important" and is forced to expressly repeat stuff many times (Anki helps a little), and to re-derive/reread most everything I didn't use for a few months.

It was to treat a case of testicular torsion. Pretty sure that didn't have anything to do with brain function.

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 No.14117

>>14115

>testicular torsion

Does that normally require general anesthesia?

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 No.14119

>>14117

I don't know, anon, but quick search indicates it is. Apparently, abdominal surgery with local anesthesia is uncommon in general.

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 No.14120

>>14115

>however it's treated as common knowledge among the surgeons I know that every instance of general anesthesia is using up a certain resource.

Then it's disturbing there isn't more research on it, let alone warnings for patients.

>and to re-derive/reread most everything I didn't use for a few months.

Is that so unusual? After multiple months of not thinking about something read one time, how many people would remember it?

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File: 3ecc01a6bc04cca⋯.jpg (151.43 KB,1200x889,1200:889,D6ZvC4DW0AEGfM7[1].jpg)

 No.14066 [Open thread]

me_irl

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 No.14068

>the industrial revolution has been disaster

I am triggered by this single line more than I should be.

How one can came up with something like this? Yes, it lead to some discomforts, but so does life. If you value avoidance of suffering more than being competitive, what stops you from just dying? You value stuff because these drives used to give your advantage to your ancestors. The same drives lead to industrialization. And it is hardly clear that person experiences less of suffering in pre-industrial society.

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 No.14069

>>14068

I do not understand your argument and I think it's in bad faith.

Things like:

>Yes, it lead to some discomforts, but so does life.

>what stops you from just dying?

Regarding:

>And it is hardly clear that person experiences less of suffering in pre-industrial society.

Nobody is saying that, not even him.

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 No.14070

>>14069

It wasn't, maybe I failed to guess what lead to that sentiment. If I remember correctly, Ted Kaczyński's main objection to technological process was, that it makes people feel miserable.

At first I tough, that if someones values avoidance of own suffering more self preservation and increasing control over reality, logical action would be to kill yourself. Choosing not to implies you don't. Yes, I dumbed it down. I guess you can maximize for both, and he doesn't care only for own suffering. But it this case, wouldn't advanced society give more instruments to potentially purse these goals? For example instead of living in middle ages or stone age, having AI organizing for us pseudo stone age 1% better and killing potential inventors.

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 No.14081

>>14067

- the industrial revolution and its consequences are dope as hell

- not proficient, kinda shit actually

- almost given up on 3d women entirely, might lose the "almost"

- drugs, alcohol and premarital sex are cool, if only I had people to do them with

- jack of no trades

- "anymore"?

> thought he might not be autistic for a while

- hardly ever deal with normies besides family, NEETlyfe

- once tried to learn guitar

- no longer studying anything, I don't want to think about how well I'll live when my unsustainable circumstances unsustain.

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 No.14116

>>14066

> Industrial revolution bad

Nah, but Kaczynsky makes some good points.

> waits for singularity, idealist, cared about politics

Yup.

> proficient in a couple of languages

I see your languages and raise a conlang.

> gave up on love and romance

> still waiting for his virgin waifu, pop culture references

Not really.

> knows history

Not that much, unfortunately.

> romanticizes traditional life, against drugs etc.

Nope. Nope nope nope.

> would rope without internet

Hard to tell.

> idealist, perfectionist

Yes definitiely.

> something fundamental absent, passionate about fonts, jack of all trades

I feel personally attacked.

> read nietzsche

Disappointing.

> no friends

Never. I have to stay happy.

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File: df89db3a56df1e3⋯.pdf (3.97 MB,postmodernism_for_rational….pdf)

 No.13933 [Open thread]

Postmodernism for Rationalists - good read

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 No.13935

I already know most of this shit.

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 No.13939

>Vast majority of Christians today read Bible allegorically / metaphorically

Is this actually true?

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 No.13940

>>13939

lolnope. vast majority of christians today (or, really, ever) actually never read the bible ever.

but what small parts of it they know about, they interpret allegorically/metaphorically, yes. for a vast majority of them and a vast majority of the content.

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 No.13949

>>13939

My guess is that the majority of Christians see verses in passing or hear them at church – mostly whatever is most compatible with 21st century ethical dogma – and take them at face value.

On the rare occasion that a passage conflicts with said dogma it is rationalised away or, yes, interpreted metaphorically.

From an apologetics standpoint, some sections are metaphorical, some are not, and the difference is usually clear. Fx: New atheists often like to believe that they've shunted Christians into a corner on Genesis. In reality, metaphorical interpretation was the accepted view for millennia. That is, before Pr*testants turned up.

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 No.14104

>>13940

>implying it's not a collection of different books with different genres

>implying allegory isn't an ancient writing technique

>implying Christianity is only the Bible

>implying readership doesn't vary among denominations

>implying worship and tradition aren't complementary components of Christianity as manifest in the body of the Church

>implying any rationalist knows anything about Christianity beyond TV stereotypes, r/atheism and their Israel-loving Evangelical boomer parents

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File: f70d7a84006e660⋯.jpg (94.28 KB,748x742,374:371,ozy sucks.JPG)

 No.14084 [Open thread]

Why is Ozy such a bitch?

Why is Scott such a cuck?

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 No.14094

>>14093

They take testosterone, but stopped during the pregnancy and breastfeeding for safety reasons.

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 No.14096

>>14094

How does she know how long she needs to be off HRT for to make pregnancy and breastfeeding safe for her child? There's no way there's much research on this.

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 No.14097

>>14096

There's a decent amount of research on it because there are also cis women with conditions that make them produce an unusual amount of androgen and testosterone. It's a common reason for recurrent miscarriages.

The (main?) issue seems to be direct exposure to testosterone, not secondary effects, so I doubt there's a long interval.

They gave birth to a healthy baby and eventually weaned him and the baby is still healthy, so it seems fine.

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 No.14098

Shouldn't everyone take masculinizing chemicals these days?

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 No.14099

>>14097

Are these conditions really the same as HRT though?

Did she even plan the conception long enough ahead to get off testosterone a safe interval beforehand?

>They gave birth to a healthy baby and eventually weaned him and the baby is still healthy, so it seems fine.

The only things I've seen on his health are Ozy's predictions he'll inherit every condition she has, that's from her blog before he was even born.

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File: 3f7d60e80055cbf⋯.jpg (37.96 KB,534x561,178:187,leparis.jpg)

 No.14082 [Open thread]

Do you feel the "Collapse of the West" sentiment, le decadent anons?

Steven Pinker praises Our World In Data and tells us it's the best time to be alive. In the meantime, highly developed countries have skyrocketing depression and anxiety rates, addictive technologies make people miserable and socially isolated, sense of meaning is being replaced with jaded nihilism, tribes are more tribal, and genders hate each other. This is not necessarily contradictory: the world may be improving as a whole, but individual experiences of Westerners may get worse.

Having said this, I still think I'm missing something important to understand the complexity of the problem and adjust my expectations. Enlighten me.

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 No.14083

File: aa2f9d449cb22ff⋯.png (101.85 KB,835x933,835:933,verzuiling.png)

>tribes are more tribal

Are they?

My smallish country used to have three or four almost explicitly enumerated tribes: protestant, catholic, socialist and (classical) liberal.

There's a neat table on Wikipedia. Each tribe had its own political parties, its own broadcasting services, its own unions, and so on. My grandpa was considered weird for going to a protestant barber despite being catholic.

They're gone now. The rough shapes remain, but I wouldn't have known it was anywhere near this intense without anecdotes from family and history lessons.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillarisation)

The US is not the same. Maybe tribes are getting more tribal there. But that might very well be contingent, orthogonal to anything happening to "the West" in general.

Possibly you're overfitting to the US and/or the internet.

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File: 26759caadd13447⋯.jpg (117 KB,300x300,1:1,limbic_system.jpg)

 No.14056 [Open thread]

Beyond easily verifiable things, like how much toothpaste I have left or how fast objects fall, why should I even bother believing anything? The outside view is that there are people smarter than me that believe every ideology under the Sun, many mutually exclusive, and can effectively and in good faith support their beliefs. I can't possibly agree with them all, and even if I were somehow able to evaluate every argument completely impartially, I doubt I would be able to determine which are true.

I have a worldview, and my beliefs feel real and true from the inside. But this was equally true when I believed in Catholicism and when I believed in the necessity of communism. Since age 17, at any point in my life, I would consider the two-year-prior version of myself cringe and {wrong}pilled. If I look at the path my beliefs have followed, it looks more like a random walk through some high-dimensional political compass than me converging on the truth. How am I supposed to take myself seriously?

The content of most "worldview" type beliefs seems largely irrelevant to my Gnon-given purpose of replication. They're there both to keep my conscious mind invested in an ultimately meaningless existence, and to help me credibly signal allegiance to the proper groups. It feels like I choose what I believe, but it's exactly as illusory as free will, and for the same reason. I know that my subconscious is pulling my strings, rewarding paths of thought that it deems useful and punishing those that risk my social standing. I can feel the flow of dopamine when I fit new evidence to my worldview. I can feel it cut off when I spend too long evaluating the outgroup's beliefs for truth content.

What am I to do? My monkey brain is probably better at winning social games than my analytical mind, so I think I should just stop resisting its guidance with this autistic desire to believe what's actually true. I guess this is giving up on the idea of epistemic rationality, but, like, at least I'm doing it on purpose.

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 No.14057

You don't need to throw out all of epistemics. You need to be wary of ideology. Wrong ideological opinions are caused less by an impaired ability to find the truth than by bad incentives.

Even if communism is fundamentally correct, being communister and less willing to accept conventional economics than the next guy marks you as a more reliable ally to the cause.

Even if climate change is real and catastrophically dangerous, being more alarmist than the next guy will get you more attention.

Even if Python is the best general-purpose programming language today, playing down its performance problems suggests you're better at writing fast Python code.

Even if the rationalist approach to epistemics is correct and useful, overusing terms like "Chesterton's fence" and "planning fallacy" makes you sound rationalister.

So what do you do? Well, you may have to ignore some of the most heavily politicized areas of knowledge. But keep in mind that they seem more important than they really are, because they're politicized. They're overrepresented. They make up a smaller share of interesting uncertain knowledge than you'd intuitively think.

Giving into social incentives for these areas is ok. You're going to do it whether you resist or not, and maybe doing it deliberately even makes it easier to occasionally be aware that you're biased.

If you want to get accurate knowledge, try topics that aren't very politicized, and try to find people who are primarily rewarded for accurate predictions.

Prediction markets are alright to trust. A lot of scientific research is fine, or can at least be expected to be closer to correctness than your baseline. A lot of it isn't, but if useful, verifiable, true predictions are normal in the sub-area then it seems good.

I think there are a lot of areas that are harder and more interesting than how much toothpaste you have left, but aren't ruined beyond tractability by bad incePost too long. Click here to view the full text.

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 No.14079

>>14057

>Even if Python is the best general-purpose programming language today, playing down its performance problems suggests you're better at writing fast Python code.

I don't think this is how signalling works among programmers. Downplaying Python's performance problems tells me that you probably haven't used other languages enough and are defending Python either out of ignorance or to save face. A good signal is more like "Python is slow as shit, but we make it work". There, now I'm programmerer than you.

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 No.14080

>>14079

That's fair.

Most of my experience with programming language performance arguments is from /tech/, which is low-quality and not representative.

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File: 40ebd8749689dda⋯.png (112.67 KB,491x720,491:720,nick.png)

 No.12718 [Open thread]

What did he meant by this?

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 No.14007

>>12724

>>12723

>>12728

This Nick Land reader is some good shit to get started. Imo what is missing is a short, objective rundown on his creation periods and how the selected works fit into it. (Think a timeline with stuff like "Published X", "Started Xenosystems".)

Also, preferably for each chapter or section a few links for further reading. eg. "Relating to this is his post 'title' at 'url'."

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 No.14008

>>14007

Not bad ideas. The timeline is easy, but the further reading would a bit of a PITA to compile…

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 No.14009

>>14008

I am not so sure about that. All what's needed is to sit down with a few people who're into Nick Land (preferably different kinds of Land fans) and ask them for which other articles they'd recommend. Generally speaking that is more of a bonus, and a rough timeline is more important to add context. Nick Land is not Nick Land, especially comparing philosophy Nick Land to NRx Land.

How do people here feel about the "On Land" chapter? I mostly neglected it so far. Generally it could be interesting to read some takes on Nick Land by different writers who were influenced by him.

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 No.14012

>>14009

>All what's needed is to sit down with a few people who're into Nick Land (preferably different kinds of Land fans) and ask them for which other articles they'd recommend.

You go ahead and do that, post the results here, and I'll add them to the second edition.

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 No.14077

>>14012

I am currently working my way through some texts, and while I am reading Land here and there, I don't think I can currently afford the time to gather a list of articles I would truly be happy with. I might try to keep notes on the side.

Also, currently looking into printing a copy or two of Land's text (or texts by other people) at a local printing shop. I was considering to print Phyl-Undhu (which I did not read yet) as a small booklet, as well as maybe a few other texts. (Not necessarily written by Land, some thinkpieces from blogs which I'd have to compile into a book first.)

Also, which font does the Nick Land reader use?

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File: 09a2d1e52cf31a5⋯.jpg (93.3 KB,1280x720,16:9,speciation.jpg)

 No.14050 [Open thread]

When, if ever, will biotechnology or some kind of a natural occurrence split the human species? Let's see what /ratanon/ predicts. Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/17946009.

If it happened, would it be a good thing or a bad thing according to your beliefs?

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 No.14060

OP and everyone who's voted so far: do you understand the timescale over which speciation happens

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 No.14061

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 No.14062

If you push biotech to the point of speciation, then you better make sure that anyone you'd like to have children with has the exact same modifications you do.

That gives a strong pressure to avoid speciation, and I'm not sure which desirable changes would even make speciation necessary.

I can only see it happen in the case of fully isolated populations over a period way longer than the options in the poll.

Four separate options for a period under a century and only one for >500 years is ridiculous, especially if you're explicitly mentioning the possiblity of a "natural occurrence".

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 No.14063

>>14060

I had brain uploading in mind.

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 No.13943 [Open thread]

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 No.13981

>>13943

Who is ask-gpt?

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 No.13983

>>13981

Blog with a bot that automatically takes GPT-2 prompts.

https://openai.com/blog/better-language-models/

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 No.13992

File: 526ec6b8ffd687e⋯.png (65.12 KB,540x686,270:343,discourse.png)

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 No.14037

File: f791c42928eded4⋯.png (42.52 KB,484x1251,484:1251,chad.png)

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 No.14042

File: 5fb42876afe1f25⋯.png (263.26 KB,2044x804,511:201,pic.png)

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File: 773eac43f9e504a⋯.jpg (32.47 KB,344x500,86:125,51GGL03EhsL.jpg)

 No.14034 [Open thread]

Yes or not?

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File: 578781288f36337⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image,101.19 KB,350x350,1:1,89442-350x250.jpg)

 No.10571 [Open thread]

So what's your take on lesswrong, meme webshit edition ?

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 No.13455

File: 09e82700b25096d⋯.png (873.38 KB,1080x608,135:76,meteor.png)

>>13454

11k commits and 40k lines (JS + JSX + Sass) seems too much for what LW2 does. I acknowledge that part of it must be my arrogance and relative inexperience speaking, but still. Is the JavaScript ecosystem to blame?

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 No.13456

>>13455

Everything about it is shit, the people who wrote it are incompetent.

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 No.13922

File: 9de7834bca9af9b⋯.png (12.67 KB,786x75,262:25,Screenshot_2019-03-16_22-1….png)

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 No.14025

File: fd51ee08db214e4⋯.png (146.46 KB,1047x523,1047:523,tumblr_pqn8zhBtl91u3bhpdo1….png)

What the actual fuck

https://house-carpenter.tumblr.com/post/184491445635/so-apparently-this-is-something-the-lesswrong

>So, apparently this is something the LessWrong website does now. I guess that’s one way of solving the deeply nested threads problem…

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 No.14028

>>14025

the real wtf is that that's an actual screenshot with no editing

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File: 172949358e8f0ed⋯.jpg (11.73 KB,255x128,255:128,star-trek-discovery-captai.jpg)

 No.8725 [Open thread]

What is the most rational Star Trek series?

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 No.8741

File: 61cb3e100b64d59⋯.jpg (9.11 KB,255x155,51:31,william_riker_growing_the_.jpg)

File: a9aa2b7810e5a98⋯.jpg (7.58 KB,255x143,255:143,ben-sisko-final_528_poster.jpg)

>>8739

You remember how TNG got better when Riker grew the beard in season two? DS9 gets better when Sisko shaves his head in season four.

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 No.8742

>>8741

So it was allowed to suck for four seasons?

Stargate: Universe started to get good after a season and a quarter, but was canned after two seasons. Yes, I am bitter.

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 No.8743

>>8742

You shut your whore mouth, Stargate: Universe was never good. It sucked so hard it killed the whole franchise. It should have been cancelled sooner.

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 No.14015

File: c2bb4b2e0afcc6c⋯.jpg (170.37 KB,1016x709,1016:709,Orbit-23138-# Banks Consid….jpg)

The Culture series by Iain M. Banks is basically rational!Star Trek. The Culture is what the Federation would look like if it was based on realistic technology, and Contact is their equivalent of Starfleet.

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 No.14022

>>14015

>realistic technology

It has warp drives, come on. It's harder sci-fi than Star Trek, sure, but "harder SF than Star Trek" is like "less racist than The Turner Diaries".

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File: b49b3859c98bfbf⋯.jpg (47.73 KB,556x744,139:186,7b72a982d87cf0ece87d539965….jpg)

 No.13534 [Open thread]

Best SHORT Rational Fiction out there to help become more rational. I don't have time to read +1000 pag fanfiction of fucking Harry Potter.

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 No.14017

>>14016

lol at the normalfag comments

https://fanfiction.net/r/10503877/

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 No.14018

File: c2aa6e24304b935⋯.png (20.23 KB,765x67,765:67,Screenshot from 2019-04-28….png)

>>14017

This one's somewhat in line with rationalist concerns

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 No.14019

>>14018

This is actual rationality.

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 No.14020

>>14019

Depends.

Why does the universe never get destroyed, despite how often it gets close? Is it because of insane but unreliable luck, or because of the anthropic principle, or because there's some sort of physical law that something will always stop it, no matter how bad the odds?

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 No.14021

>>14020

Good question, but if you're headed down that road you've got to also consider "why does the world never stay saved?" and "where were all these threats before the superheroes started showing up recently?"

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File: 334d189a07c408e⋯.png (244.15 KB,525x773,525:773,rococo.png)

 No.12012 [Open thread]

We're steadily moving toward the least probable timeline.

https://consequenceofsound.net/2018/05/grimes-is-dating-elon-musk-report/

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 No.12403

>>12393

I think it's a combination of shitty picture, poorly applied lipstick, pursed lips, and only slightly odd lip shape, but what a combination.

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 No.14002

File: 7e9337c52c7d13f⋯.png (49.89 KB,635x257,635:257,grimes.png)

She is pretty hardcore.

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 No.14003

>>14002

>socialist but not economically

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 No.14004

>>14003

many of them are no longer economic now. maybe you've noticed another kind of marxist rhetoric become popular over at least the past decade.

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 No.14005

>>14003

Self-aware literal cultural Marxism?

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