/tech/ - Technology★

>>954985

>Their attitude towards other parties that have a slightly or a different opinion about things.

>That makes some people dislike them.

not a technical reason.

>There is nothing wrong with the so called GNU system.

I feel the same. However, I often see those who dislike GNU for their attitude also imply that the software itself is also heavily flawed. I wonder if there is substance to this, or if it's just butthurtedness from other aspects of the free software movement extending beyond that scope and towards the code.

>>954981 (OP)

Let's start with bloated.

>>954992

These pictures are legitimately sad at their core, there is only one one person who is truly happy in that picture. I can't imagine anyone who can actually make fun of these people and don't feel bad about it. I just don't want to imagine.

>>955004

auditable=minimalistic

x86 won't be around forever, I hope

GCC being bloated shit just because hardware is no excuse.

Anything being bloated just because hardware isn't excuse.

>>955006

I actually was trolling.

My emacs config takes 5 seconds to load even on a EVO 860 SSD and a i7-4700MQ

* crying wojak reaction image *

>>955009

Meant for

>>955008

>>955006

Would you rather want so see come dabbing modern computer coders?

>>955007

>posting reddit gifs

retard

>>955011

Are you speaking English? It's hard to tell.

>>954992

Oh shit.

# dnf remove emacs
Dependencies resolved.
================================================================================
 Package             Arch          Version                Repository       Size
================================================================================
Removing:
 emacs               x86_64        1:26.1-3.fc28          @updates         38 M
Removing dependent packages:
 libotf              x86_64        0.9.13-11.fc28         @fedora         219 k
Removing unused dependencies:
 emacs-common        x86_64        1:26.1-3.fc28          @updates         89 M
 libXaw              x86_64        1.0.13-8.fc28          @fedora         504 k
 liblockfile         x86_64        1.14-1.fc28            @fedora          46 k

Transaction Summary
================================================================================
Remove  5 Packages

Freed space: 128 M
Is this ok [y/N]: y

>>955009

Why not just run it as a daemon?

>>955009

Did you fall for the Helm meme?

>>955017

>>955022

Gif seems broken. Just look it up if you care

>>955013

>imgur isn't reddit

>The company was started in 2009 in Athens, Ohio as Alan Schaaf's side project while he attended Ohio University for computer science. Imgur was created as a response to the usability problems encountered in similar services. Designed to be a gift to the online community of Reddit

stupid newfag

>>955029

>I'm a newfag now for not knowing the history of Reddits satellite projects

You're trying way too hard to discredit my posts. If you don't know why you disagree with me then just don't post

>>955022

I knew it was a nigger thing.

>>955031

>I'm a newfag now for not knowing the history of Reddits satellite projects

Exactly. Lurk moar

>>954985

The FSF doesn't have a problem with differing opinions. The FSF has a problem with strawman arguments regarding the messages of the FSF and also making recommendations to support differing opinions. For example, it is not right to characterize the FSF as an open source organization and it is not to claim that the FSF promotes open source development.

>>955007

What most of society fail to understand about free software is the matter of freedom; freedom is correlated with personal responsibility. When users have freedom when they get their copy of a free program, it is their own responsibility to fix it to meet their own needs. A related matter is people conflate personal responsibility with technical aptitude. Users do not require any kind of technical aptitude to possess their freedom and then practice their freedom. Users who need technical help need to find a skilled helper for help. Perhaps they might have a friend willing to grant a favor in solving a technical problem. Otherwise, they can hire a professional expert in IT or computer programming to get the help they need.

>>955007

You are proposing the idea any project engaged by (many) professionals working toward a common goal can never match any similar project comprised of (many) professionals on a payroll, correct?

Not a loaded question, just clarifying. This is the information you are spreading, correct?

>>955064

Yeah buddy it's called the freedom software foundation for a reason.

When will these sheeple wake up and stop conflating personal responsibility with technical aptitude and realise freedom is correlated with personal responsibility. Oh yeah and they should stop acting like they didn't know that if you need help you should find a helper for help because that excuse is getting old. Remember folks, fixing freedom is your responsibility so hire a professional expert in IT.

UNIX close + being the perfect example of following the UNIX philosophy.

Have you READ their code? It's garbage. They idolize POSIX and portability and will make your life much harder than it needs to be. It takes a long time for Linux-specific calls to reach libraries like glibc, if they ever reach it at all.

>>955080

Not really. All GNU software is POSIX compliant but not all defaults of GNU are tuned to be POSIX compliant.

http://wiki.wlug.org.nz/POSIX_ME_HARDER

>>954990

The software IS flawed. Have you ever tried contributing code to GNU shit? Have you ever tried fixing bugs only to be told that people on obscure systems nobody cares about that are barely alive at this point depend on shit being bugged? Or adding features only to be met with the maintainer's uncaring shrug despite you submitting working code that just happens to not work on every system that ever existed since the FSF movement was created?

Make no mistake. The FSF's only value is the GPL license. You're better off starting your own project if the alternative is to try to cooperate with those people. Ironically, it's people like Poettering that are fixing the Linux world and they're doing it by bypasing all this POSIX/GNU OS crap nobody cares about and doing their own thing instead. You people might not like it and sure they do have their own ego problems of their own but it's better on principle due to being focused on Linux and ONLY on Linux like all things should be; they don't cater to ancient systems that don't even have modern bash installed.

>>955081

Those GNU defaults are usually the saving grace of GNU software. Many of them are actually very useful. GNU is at their best when they're doing their own thing. The retarded POSIX modes always attract standardsfags and obsessive-compulsives with a portability fetish and those people always ruin everything.

>>955082

Can you name the specific projects that have refused your patches? I have contributed to GNU projects four patches for four bug fixes. All I got out them was, "cool" and "thanks". I grant you that the fixes I had made do not interfere with the operation of legacy systems.

>>955088

No, I refuse to break my anonymity. If you want some example, read about the 2 years long process to get the getrandom() Linux syscall added to glibc; it's well chronicled in the LWN. Who the fuck cares that BSD does it slightly different? Who cares about glibc's shitty cancellation mechanism? I simply do not have the patience for crap like this. It took them 2 fucking years to add a simple random number system call to glibc.

>>955009

Learn how to use autoload and with-eval-after-load macro, faggot.

>>955074

Wrong. Reread what I said, I just think the way the GNU project goes about it is wrong. Free Software needs a strong leader who will guarantee quality assurance in mainline. Like the Linux Kernel itself or BSD

>>955076

>>955074

Then we have a real fundamental issue with Free Software that needs to be addressed because personal responsibility is one thing but you can't expect the average end-user to want to learn C and track down bugs himself.

>>954981 (OP)

Their code is purposely shit so no one claims plagiarism. I wish I was joking. Look how their /bin/true is implemented.

>>955105

You have a difference in values with the FSF. You believe that high quality software is a most important value. The FSF believe that the value of high quality software is lower than the value of users possessing their own freedom, that low quality free software (or even non-existent free software) is more important than the choice of proprietary software of high quality.

Nobody in the FSF are advocating for users to learn any kind of computer programming. Users who have freedom do not require any kind of technical skill to practice their own freedom. The only thing that users need to learn is that the price of solving technical issues is an expensive endeavor.

>>955126

>You have a difference in values with the FSF. You believe that high quality software is a most important value. The FSF believe that the value of high quality software is lower than the value of users possessing their own freedom, that low quality free software (or even non-existent free software) is more important than the choice of proprietary software of high quality.

quality software and user freedoms do not have to be mutually exclusive but it's obvious you're a massive fanboy and apologist for RMS so I don't know why I would bother

>>955130

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just stating the facts that there are different systems of value between the FSF and the rest of society. It is my opinion that you're not going to convince the FSF that they need to direct their efforts into developing high quality software while at the same time reducing their activism about user freedom in software. The activism is actually the primary purpose of the FSF while the computer programming is an addition on top of the activism.

The problems with GNU come from using C and copying UNIX. They add extra bullshit, which accounts for GNU being even more bloated than UNIX, but they don't fix what's wrong with UNIX.

The commands, the shell, the entire compilation and executable system (headers, libraries, linker, ar, ELF), the PDP-11 memory model, fork, files based on tape drives, system calls, null-terminated strings, systems programming, etc. all suck in UNIX/Linux/GNU/Plan 9 and are too broken to fix. They couldn't even add seeking to pipes (virtual tapes) to Linux because it would interact poorly with some other brain damaged part.

    Actually, the GNU project has much higher coding
    standards than the UNIX kernel.  For example: no fixed
    constants.  Everything must dynamically expand.

    UNIX is terrible.  GNU is trying to make a UNIX that
    isn't terrible, just bad.

Not a good excuse.  Shite painted pink is just pink shite.
Why didn't FSF try to invent a free operating system that
was good?  Answer: their political agenda is 10^6 times more
important to them than good engineering.

>>955295

>They couldn't even add seeking to pipes

Could you try coming up with something better? That's the point of pipes, you can only produce on one side or consume from the other. Use pipes if you want actual pipes, use share memory for your bullshit.

>>955295

Oh for fuck's sake. There's nothing wrong with C the language. The worst parts of C is all the user space garbage people insist on having because muh POSIX. Shit like errno. Fortunately Linux lets you get rid of them.

>>955295

>10^6 times

Yeah we get it, you just discovered scientific notation and think you're hot shit.

>>955325

Nobody forces you to use the standard library. Null terminated strings on the other hand...

>>955329

>Nobody forces you to use the standard library

You're kidding, right? Literally any program and/or library on Linux links against glibc. Do you have any idea what the implications of that are? Do you know the fuckhuge amount of global state glibc keeps around for convenience?

The only way to avoid this junk is to create a whole entirely new Linux-focused user space. Hopefully with zero dependencies on every binary, except the Linux kernel<->userspace interfaces or extremely minimal statically linked libraries.

>null terminated strings

Just because C will generate them when you type string literals doesn't mean user space must be made out of them. The Linux I/O interface is

well designed and you'll always know exactly how much data you've read and exactly how much data you're writing. Simply keep track of string lengths or do sizeof(statically_allocated_buffer) - 1 and you can pretend the NUL doesn't exist.

>>955389

The post >>955325 was referring to the language, not to today's software written in it.

>>null terminated strings

>Just because C will generate them when you type string literals doesn't mean user space must be made out of them.

>and you can pretend the NUL doesn't exist.

I'd prefer C strings to be explicitly terminated rather than pretending anything.

>>955402

I'm both posters you quoted. The C standard library is a part of the hosted C language, so programs using it are just C programs. It's shit.

>I'd prefer C strings to be explicitly terminated

I'd prefer tracking the size of buffers from their source: I/O or language.

>Do one thing, but do it monolithically.

>what are the issues with the actual GNU *utils?

-half of them are unmaintained

-they don't pay attention to their bug trackers even when a fix is submitted for a bug that's 5 years old

-glib and gtk are bloated messes that try to recreate C++ in C via their massive bloatware libraries.

>>954985

It's called being uncompromising.

>>955004

>Emacs is a good example of this

>functions =/= bloat

I use Emacs (and Gnus and eshell and ERC, etc), but even I can admit that a text editor that comes out-of-the-box with two mail readers, two IRC clients and three terminal emulators is perhaps a bit bloated.

>>956009

I agree with you.The only thing I don't understand is the how this is going to get done.

>>954981 (OP)

>Speaking from a solely technical level

>>954985

>I hate their attitude

/tech/ in a nutshell

>>955764

And Tetris, don't forget Tetris though tbf it's saved me from boredom a few times

>>954992

It's over.

>>954981 (OP)

Only soyboy "code artisans" complain about projects being too strict, without that strictness their meme.js framework would be corrupting their system with every new stack overflow copy-paste. The truth is they're just understaffed, less people means less ideas being exchanged, less problems being found and less code being written, all of those mean slower development, to the point that many people would consider some of GNU as finished/unsupported and they sometimes might be right. When someone thinks "I'm gonna contribute to open sores" they don't think about GNU

The coreutils still aren't multibyte aware. In CY+3, cut -b is the same as cut -c.

It's the poorman's unix.

>>967545

<put documentation under FSL with invariant sections

meant

<put documentation under FDL with invariant sections

Bloat, crappy documentation, I could go on but it's all been covered. GNU focuses on features and not correctness and it shows. Also it seems like there's no direction, and as Terry said, it doesn't get bad, it gets worse.

>>954981 (OP)

>cuck license

>shitty code

>>968065

The purpose of GNU is to simply exist. GNU is the expression of a world where software users can escape the world of proprietary software into world where the software respects the users' freedom. Matters of simplistic technical style and design clarity are not important matters for GNU. The highest virtues of GNU are: does it work according to the specification as defined by the leaders of each individual GNU project and does it respect the user's freedom.

>>956009

>The win condition for their cause would be getting everyone to use their software

This is where you're confused. The win condition for their cause would be for general society to refuse to install and use proprietary software on their own machines; they willingly choose this way because they believe that freedom is more important than the convenience offered through proprietary software. It is a fact that the masses don't care for morality and freedom; the Free Software Foundation's stated purpose is to convince people that free software is the ethical solution to the social problem of proprietary software.

It's fine and dandy to take your effort to develop high quality software but high quality software isn't the purpose of the FSF. Activism for freedom is the stated purpose of the FSF.

>>968094

And by respects the users freedom you mean banning them from doing actions with the threat of intellectual property law. The only code that respects the users freedom is in the public domain unlicensed.

>>968106

No, not at all. There are four specific freedoms that users must have in order to have freedom in the software they use. Roughly, it means that the users have the freedom to run, copy, distribute, study, change and improve the software. Intellectual property law doesn't actually exist in the US so what you say is nonsense.

>>954990

Software freedom (that goes both ways) jealousy is a dangerous thing.

>>955082

> it's people like Poettering that are fixing the Linux world

either bait or blatant shill.

>>968200

>either bait or blatant shill.

He made an Init system that can actually properly do the trivial task of starting and stopping things in the right order, and he made an audio subsystem that can deal with plugging in a pair of USB headphones. Something all the other faggots were not able to get done in 10 years.

>>lets do Unix again! this time everyone and their mum is developer, surely software is quality

this is why Windows rules the desktop

>>955389

>The only way to avoid this junk is to create a whole entirely new Linux-focused user space. Hopefully with zero dependencies on every binary, except the Linux kernel<->userspace interfaces or extremely minimal statically linked libraries.

You might find minibase project interesting.

>>968347

>systemd and pulseaudio aren't quality pieces of software.

>openrc/runit and sndio are better

nice shit you got there that cant even deal with a USB headset correctly.

>>968200

>hurr I don't like systemd you must be a shill

Can't handle the truth, luser? The fact is systemd is literally built to use Linux's exclusive features like cgroups and is better for it. It's certainly better than some lowest common denominator standards compliant crap. I don't give a shit if you hate the man himself, but the fact that poettering sees this and counsciously writes code to make full use of Linux is a good thing.

>>968534

>minibase

Thanks for posting that! This is great. I'm gonna be testing this.

>>955019

```

$ du -sh .emacs.d/

223M .emacs.d/

```

>>955080

That's nothing, have you read windows' code?

oh wait....

>>968625

>implying openrc/runit don't work with USB headset

White people don't use USB headsets. This limitation doesn't mean that pulseaudio is better than sndio.

>>968648

You can use cgroups without using systemdick, and the fact that cgroups are Linux-exclusive doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make the init/process supervisor as portable as possible (perhaps other kernels implement a feature similar to cgroups?)

How can you trust a project whose main developer just says: "lol it works as intended; it's not a bug. WONTFIX lol" The fact that SystemDick Niggers tried to add code into Linux kernel (!!) to workaround their own bugs and limitations shows that they aren't competent at all.

We do need a modern init, but systemdick isn't the answer.

>>968648

OpenRC has cgroups support, but still works on FreeBSD.

>>968746

>muh systemd sucks

I don't give a shit. The fact is their whole "let's make full use of Linux" approach is great and people should do things that way. The fact they get roasted on the mailing lists by the kernel devs when they create hardship for them is hilarious but doesn't matter to me. It's a completely separate problem.

>>968746

>White people don't use USB headsets.

You heard it here first faggots. The software being a piece of shit is good because USB is for blacks.

>>968838

>implying pukeaudio is good because it handles usb headsets, and that usb support is the only indicator of a good software

enjoy the lower sound quality and the bugs/vulnerabilities, faggot

>>968891

>doesn't support USB

>this is somehow good

This isn't helping your case, retard. It's one thing to not like poettering, it's another thing completely to have objectively shit opinions.

>>968802

What are you even trying to say? Stop shitposting and write something substantial or don't bother replying.

The fact is I agree systemd isn't the ideal init system and I agree the Red Hat people involved are quite the hate sinks, enough to draw the ire of fucking Torvalds. I do however applaud their effort to make a Linux-first init system that doesn't make any compromises for idiotic "portability" reasons nobody actually cares about. That's how programming should be done, but instead retards start abstracting fucking everything and end up with some lowest common denominator middleware.

>>967366

>The truth is they're just understaffed, less people means less ideas being exchanged, less problems being found and less code being written, all of those mean slower development, to the point that many people would consider some of GNU as finished/unsupported and they sometimes might be right. When someone thinks "I'm gonna contribute to open sores" they don't think about GNU

Also GNU not having it's own distribution for a long time caused people think that GNU is a nonexistent operating system. They just don't know about GNU, because few people talks about it. What they hear about is Linux, open source and firefucks quantum.

>>969464

http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Arguments_against_systemd

>he likes systemdicks because muh linux first

Holy fuck, the autism. I agree that some compromises for portability are bullshit, but systemdicks is far worse than those. I'm starting to suspect you to be pooettering himself, or some equally idiotic glow-in-the-dark.

>>969517

GNU isn't an OS at all. It's essentially just a bunch of user space command line tools. Shit like cp and ls. The actual OS is Linux. The only reason GNU even gets to say it's part of the OS at all is because of garbage standards like POSIX that define an OS as a thing that has "shell utilities". By any reasonable person's definition, Linux is the OS.

GNU IS finished. Their core utils are pretty much finished. There's nothing to add there anymore. Linux? It can always be improved. Just like GCC.

>>969694

>The actual OS is Linux

https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq/software.html

How would you call your "Linux" OS, If Linux got removed?

Also wonder how would linux look like without RMS starting GNU and free software movement. I guess it would be proprietary.

>GNU IS finished. Their core utils are pretty much finished. There's nothing to add there anymore.

You can add whatever you want. Just create a program and ask if it can be a GNU package.

Read this, or if you don't care, just go back using your "Linux distributions" (Android and RouterOS)

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

https://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html

>>969694

GNU is an OS because it was designed as an OS. The user space command line tools are the OS.

>>969730

>How would you call your "Linux" OS, If Linux got removed?

Probably Unix.

>>955295

>political agenda

(((10^6)))

Holy shit. That is some kvetching.

>>969730

>How would you call your "Linux" OS, If Linux got removed?

Obviously it wouldn't be Linux anymore. What a stupid question. If anything, it's the GNU parts that can be easily replaced with something else such as busybox or minibase.

>>969832

According to whom? POSIX? You realize almost nobody even reads standards like those, right? To normal people, Linux is the OS because it's the thing that actually runs your programs. It's POSIX that says your sytem needs shit like ls and cp in order to be an "OS" but nothing stops you from making a fully graphical Linux user space instead. Graphical programs can make system calls to Linux just fine. You can put literally whatever you want on top of Linux. If you want to scrap GNU and make your own user space, you can.

Linux IS the OS and everything else is just part of the distribution. Just like how there's different editions of Win10 such as the N edition that doesn't come with MS's shitty media apps.

>>969984

It is an OS according to what is an OS. Take the Android OS for example. Android OS doesn't implement a kernel from scratch but instead, it makes use of an existing OS kernel program. The traditional kernel program for the Android OS is the Linux kernel program. In the case of the Apple system the OS is referred to as the base system that includes the Mach kernel program and the rest of the Apple software made up of many little distinct binary programs that are explicitly designed to work in a particular unison. Apple call their OS "OS X" and not "Apple Mach". For the Windows OS, the Windows OS refers to the complete base system which includes the NT kernel, but they don't call their OS "Microsoft NT kernel".

>>969984

>According to whom? POSIX? You realize almost nobody even reads standards like those, right?

How delusional can you be? POSIX is why most applications can be shared between BSDs and GNU/Linux.

>To normal people

retards like me*

>Linux is the OS because it's the thing that actually runs your programs.

Linux without a libc or compiler won't run a lot of programs, rertard.

>Linux IS the OS and everything else is just part of the distribution.

If you can't understand the difference between a kernel and an OS, you're retarded.

>Just like how there's different editions of Win10 such as the N edition that doesn't come with MS's shitty media apps.

Notice how it's not called MS NT but MS Windows? Fag.

This bickering is pointless, anyway. It's GNU/Linux, because it's GNU that started and contributed the most effort to creating a free UNIX clone. Linux came long after this, when GNU was already being used on Sun machines. If anything it would be more proper to call it GNU OS, but rms gives due credit to Linux for the success of the whole OS, so it's GNU/Linux.

>>970102

>Linux without a libc or compiler won't run a lot of programs, rertard.

<he thinks the compiler has anything to do with running an executable

LOL

>>970102

> It's GNU/Linux, because

Yeah so a few percent of the code on my system is GNU and that makes the whole fucking thing GNU / Linux.

>>970105

Your system isn't named after the biggest application on it though.

>>970101

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.en.html

>>970105

GNU forms the base platform upon which everything else relies. The most fundamental parts of your system are the Linux kernel program and the GNU OS. The rest of the system are additions on top of that base. Now if you manage to change the base so that is isn't quite GNU, your system is no longer a GNU base.