[–]▶ No.854752>>854753 >>854754 >>854757 >>854769 >>854779 >>854804 >>854843 >>854858 >>854888 >>854977 >>854980 >>855135 >>855208 >>855519 >>855524 >>855607 >>856882 >>862342 >>862789 >>864893 >>865792 [Watch Thread][Show All Posts]
What's the future of online discussion anons?
<modern failed experiments:
>socialmedia
In a attempt to increase post quality, various sites sprung up where via a white list (following, subscribing, etc) or via voting, post were filtered out. This ultimately resulted in a filtering to the least common denominator, and the creation of a singular mass culture.
>imagesboards
In order to prevent the socialization of the community into a single mass culture users are made anonymous and with limited moderation. This to some extent succeeded but in the end the shitposters destroyed any discussion worth having on sufficiently large boards, and discussion defaulted to the least common denominator.
>smaller imageboards
In response to increases in low quality discussion and unwillingness to submit to the mass culture imageboards fracture into smaller communities more capable of having quality discussion, these unfortunately rarely gain enough users to have a conversation at all, meaning with rare exception fractures mend themselves.
<previously failed experiments:
>BBS Usenet & Mailing Lists
Killed by advances in technology, and spam.
>forums & irc
In response to poor moderation users fled sometimes consciously sometimes unaware to a environment where they could moderate themselves. This lead to the rise of self moderation. In addition these have some of the issues of socialization as socialmedia, although given to a lesser extent.
<other concerns with existing solutions
>security and with it opensource
>scalability without monetization and with it decentralization
<ultimate goal
quality discussion.
▶ No.854753>>854762
>>854752 (OP)
pornuhb comment section
▶ No.854754>>854757 >>854758 >>854759 >>856039 >>864850
>>854752 (OP)
What about federated social media?
By this I mean Open Source decentralized shit like mastodon, GNUsocial, etc, rather than centralized systems like Twitter and Facebook.
▶ No.854757>>854759 >>854843 >>862343
▶ No.854758
>>854754
they have an issue with nodes censoring each other for political goals, and they can't really gain followers without a strong branding, which is where centralized platforms shine.
mostly though, it's about pioneer effects, you won't get people to switch unless there really tangible benefits, like myspace and aol shitting the bed.
▶ No.854759
>>854754
>>854757
Federated discussion doesn't raise post quality, the only reason it might seem that way is because it is currently rather niche with a reasonable target audience. The federated feed will always result in filtering to the least common denominator. Your only hope is in your personal server, and that will likely suffer from the same issues as smaller imageboards.
▶ No.854762
>>854753
It's the same as facebook groups in that regard, most of them are retarded and have the exact same shit inside of them as out.
▶ No.854769>>854783 >>854980 >>863646
>>854752 (OP)
>Usenet, IRC, and Mailing lists are "Failed".
No
▶ No.854777
>What's the future of online discussion anons?
Machine learning and AI enabled, supported by big data analytics, available as IoT device with blockchain, cloud powered industry 4.0 ready decentralized imageboards.
▶ No.854778>>854781 >>854783 >>855048 >>863647
The internet is the real failure here. It's too easy for sub-50 IQ normies and phoneposters to mob any community in superior numbers and drown out any interesting or intelligent discussion and flood it with garbage opinions and muh feelings.
▶ No.854779>>854783 >>855096
>>854752 (OP)
What is your definition of failure?
There are smaller, good quality boards running right now. There are groups huddled in IRC right now having a great time. Larger boards have their uses, and sometimes quality discussion happens depending on the board, topic and time. Forums have their uses and again same with boards, small forums are usually quality, large have occasional quality threads.
Maybe it's you anon? Have you been diagnosed with schizophrenia?
Don't ask me to link to quality boards/forums from /tech/, there are too many contrary, blackpilled faggots here
▶ No.854781>>854783
>>854778
This pretty much sums it up. 10 years ago this wasn't a huge problem, but the second the iPhone was released, the internet began to slowly get flooded with retards, eventually with them becoming the majority around 2012.
▶ No.854783>>854788 >>854860 >>854864 >>855148 >>864986
>>854769
>>854779
>What is your definition of failure?
Not having quality discussion or not having enough discussion.
I'm aware their are some quality boards see my spoiler, I don't want to have security in obscurity I want a thriving community. With the robustness to insure it stays that way.
>>854778
>>854781
Can we have a solution other than gas the normies?
▶ No.854784>>854786 >>854799 >>857160
dont forget about liveboards
▶ No.854786
>>854784
Snailposter detected
▶ No.854788>>854794
>>854783
>Not having quality discussion or not having enough discussion.
Can you empirically measure it? If not then I'll just throw Newtons Flaming Laser Sword at you.
▶ No.854794>>854806
>>854788
>Not wanting to improve online discussion.
sigh
▶ No.854799
>>854784
Liveboards don't even make sense. People reply to each other in the way of chat because they can see what people are typing live, which results in incongruent records in the posts of the threads.
▶ No.854804
>>854752 (OP)
A boot stamping on a human face, forever.
▶ No.854806>>854810
>>854794
>not wanting to begin to actually improve online discussion.
▶ No.854810>>854974
>>854806
I'm trying my best anon.
▶ No.854843>>854847 >>854849
>>854757
>(((UK)))
nuh
>>854752 (OP)
The problem is the content of the message. Does it need to be public or private? Anonymous or no?
Private conversations always require complicated workarounds and great to basic cryptosec. Everything else is intercepted and stored in tumor-growing servers awaiting to be decrypted if already not.
Anonymity is an even bigger issue since most of the things out there are fingerprintable even the way you pick words.
▶ No.854847>>854849
>>854843
Matrix can be self-hosted, just don't use their default host and you're good to go. It also supports full e2e encryption and has several open-source clients as well as irc bridges. As an alternative to (((discord))), it's great. Not useful for real conversation though.
▶ No.854849>>854869
>>854843
>>854847
This isn't a thread on secure communication but on creating a platform for quality discussion. If you ever want anyone to switch to a more secure platform you're going to need to find a way to improve the quality discussion anyway otherwise no one will move.
▶ No.854851>>854980
Spam is a big problem on Usenet, but if you run captcha system like here (and have some moderators too, also like here) it can probably work. I mean as a new, indepedent NNTP server or network, not the global Usenet that currently exists and can't be changed so easily.
As for BBS, they don't get much spam because it's trivial for sysop to just nuke an account and all its messages (easy spam eradication in a few keystrokes). And there are still quite a few BBS active today, and MUDs too. They're just "underground" so to speak. Some even run on old hardware like Commodore 64 or Amiga. In general, simple text interfaces requires much less resources than web with tons of images+videos, so it works.
▶ No.854858
>>854752 (OP)
Nothing, unless things change quite drastically.
You can already see FB and Google moving against speech they don't improve of.
The Daily Stormer affair has shown that Cloudflare has no trouble taking sides either, and they're essentially a necessary service thanks to the Internet of Shit and it's giant botnet for hire.
The future won't have discussion, it'll have one corporate-approved opinion.
▶ No.854860>>854980
>>854783
Well then Usenet is working fine. There's still people posting on newsgroups like alt.os.linux.slackware, comp.os.*, comp.lang.*, rec.games.roguelike.*, and the binary newsgroups are very active too.
▶ No.854864>>854879 >>855148
>>854783
>Not having quality discussion or not having enough discussion.
There plenty of forums that are alive and well that center around a specific subjects. UBB/VB is bigger then ever with the automotive/motorcycle groups. Just pick an interesting make/model and chances are there is a UBB for it.
Mailing lists and NNTP is still big with tech types. https://marc.info/?w=2
Quality stays high because of focus on the subject matter and active mods. Mods become bad and the group moves to a new site.
Large open forums/lists with no set subject or focus seem to fail quickly. I don't know of any that are still around.
irc has leveled off but not "failed". There are still plenty of autists who still use itlike myself.
Online is good for the exchange of information and ideas. It is a shitty replacement for "social" interaction because everything about it is anti-social. That is why SocialMedia type sites always turn in to cancerous circlejerks. I don't think there will ever be a way around that.
▶ No.854869>>854879
>>854849
can't have sensitive quality discussions if I know those thousand-eyed agencies are closely watching.
quality discussions only happen when like-minded individuals can have communication without disturbances or downtimes.
look at reddit or facebook or anything that reeks social memedia, maybe to our perspective their discussions are shit-tier or low-q but to their own perspective it is "quality"
other chat services that are backdoored can be deemed "quality" until revealed that their conversations weren't private (and exposed for the world to see)
anyone can have quality discussions anywhere as long as it is to their perspective. it's just that there are factors that prevent these:
>cyberterrorists "rationalizing" surveillance programs
>spies/shills and IDFs
>destructible/downtime/takedowns/handover-honeypot
>rulecuck moderation and (illegal) content spam
>dox and bigdata (sellout ASP/sellout ISP/transnational spies)
Therefore quality discussions should at the very least meet the following criterion:
>no censorship
>secrecy and privacy with optional anonymity
>high QoS
▶ No.854879>>854928
>>854864
I agree with everything you've said, This Especially:
>Online is good for the exchange of information and ideas. It is a shitty replacement for "social" interaction because everything about it is anti-social. That is why SocialMedia type sites always turn in to cancerous circlejerks. I don't think there will ever be a way around that.
You meantioned this but Mailing lists have to be exceedingly specific, you couldn't have a /tech/ mailing list because if everyone used it you'd flood everyone's inboxes. It's a bit of a scalability issue.
Yes Forums thrive so long as they're well moderated. The issue is that most of them become poorly moderated in time. Really a properly moderated imageboard could work just as well if not better though.
I still use IRC aswell :) Perhaps forums and irc belong in a specially category of can work, potentially even along with imageboards. Scalability always seems like a issue though.
>>854869
>no censorship
Anon I certainly agree that security should be a top priority for any communications occurring on the web, I disagree whole heartily however with no censorship as a means of establishing quality. I don't agree with social contracts on the levels of nations but as far as joining a online community they are absolutely necessary and reasonable considering unlike nations you can just leave a online community.
▶ No.854888>>854899 >>855513
>>854752 (OP)
>quality discussion
You won't get quality discussions on any public social media platform, be that a message board or something like Reddit. Simply because it's public (i.e. no face control), which leads to it being mostly used by young people. Single-subject forums and boards can be fine but they're also usually pretty slow. The rule of the thumb is that if you're older than thirty and is still using some public general-discussion message board then you're most likely mentally retarded.
▶ No.854899
>>854888
You're so quick to conclude the problem is unsolvable. I don't believe it for a second.
▶ No.854928>>855144
>>854879
no censorship in a sense that there is no globally imposed "ideal" censorship by "someone".
think of different nodes of the same network. each node have their very own "ideal" censorship depending on the userbase they target.
just like internet, people are free to do anything they want as long as they have their own infrastructure or platform that they can build. the problem is today's internet is getting regulated more and more every coming year and those who can deploy their independent network comms are doing it in the shadows (deep web)
a deployable communication platform(over the network)/infrastructure(hardware) will fix this problem (like blockchain meme) although you'll be marked as "terrorists" or "commie" in the process so the authors of such should be unknown (fuck CIA).
▶ No.854939
To be honest if I had the money I would buy out 8ch, pay money for an AI to developed so that board owners could deploy the AI on their boards, and have these AI cross board post & antagonize other board AI.
▶ No.854948>>854953 >>854959
I think you're framing the problem in a wrong way.
if you're part of a private group, it doesn't really matter which platform you use.
if you're referring to public online discussion, just join groups with the topics you're interested in. platform doesn't matter much again, except for the way the communication works. Discord, subreddits, forums, they all work fine.
If you got complaints about quality you're either in the wrong place or subscribed to the wrong people.
Decentralization of platforms is a completely different topic and much more interesting.
I tried to research into it myself and you run into difficult problems like:
> how to create decentralized account system? assuming you need to store data, potentially sensitive.
> for decentralization you'll need several independent service hosts. How do you discover them? How do you prevent whoever is in control of the discovery mechanism from censoring/banning nodes for illegitimate reasons like hating the owner for his beliefs?
I think monetization is important, it gives hosts incentive to not be dicks and ban people they dont like, and if they do their profits will go down and fall behind, and someone else will take their place.
▶ No.854953>>855080
>>854948
> how to create decentralized account system? assuming you need to store data, potentially sensitive.
Just sign in using your private key.
> for decentralization you'll need several independent service hosts. How do you discover them? How do you prevent whoever is in control of the discovery mechanism from censoring/banning nodes for illegitimate reasons like hating the owner for his beliefs?
Encrypt everything before it hits the users screen. You might also need to use some protocol to anonymize where responses came from.
▶ No.854959>>854965 >>855080
>>854948
>reddit
>fine
>what's more interesting is something that's been done a million times but no one ever uses because post quality is shit.
>models for monetization on the internet help motivate quality content rather than making you mindlessly click what ever ad is put in front of you.
You could not shitpost harder if you tried anon.
▶ No.854965>>854980
>>854959
Yeah Usenet will outlive all chans. I've seen an uptick there myself.
▶ No.854973>>854979 >>854984 >>864237
Forums are the best but they are dying. The future is shit like facebook and twitter, of course. I mean, that's what people want.
▶ No.854974>>855068 >>855283
>>854810
Then take my advice, first try and to find a empirical measuremnent to how good quality a discussion could be.
▶ No.854977
>>854752 (OP)
>What's the future of online discussion anons?
Bleak.
▶ No.854979>>855068
>>854973
forums were just an endless circlejerking, where you couldn't post anything against the status quo without getting a 20k post user shitting your thread with other niggers following him
▶ No.854980>>855024 >>855068 >>855486
>>854752 (OP)
>>854769
>>854860
>>854965
Mailing lists are about as active as ever, but USENET is stone cold dead compared to its heyday, and that's even harsher than it sounds, given the far larger number of people online now.
>>854851
This. CAPTCHA is the thing that could've saved USENET without sacrificing its "no mods, no masters" decentralization.
My ideal discussion venue would be USENET+CAPTCHA+standard API for accessing archives inside the reader instead of some stupid website (especially after Google's increasingly incompetent administration of DejaNews' archives)
▶ No.854984
>>854973
I don't know about dying, but one web forum I regularly posted on for many years got subverted with reddit/facebook upvotes and other modern retardation. They also changed the interface so it behaves like shit and is no longer 100% functional in plain html browser. Simultaneously, a crowd of n00bs showed up. I guess site admin wanted to make the board more popular (though it was already doing fine), but it just ended up worse. Then again people who love that reddit/facebook shit are probably in pigshit heaven right now.
▶ No.854995>>855068
Quality discussion is dead. All people care about is snark and sarcasm to win favourites/retweets/upvotes.
▶ No.855024>>855042 >>855070
>>854980
USENET's biggest downfall imo was alt.binaries
The disk space needed for ISP's to provide the feeds grew exponentially and keeping it online became very expensive in the pre-"cloud"/VM days. When ISPs tried just not providing binaries feeds a very vocal minority caused so much drama that the ISPs just said fuck it and stopped providing NNTP all together.
With out the free ubiquitous nntp.myisp.net severs everywhere new blood was cut off.
▶ No.855042
>>855024
Every group I frequented almost totally dried up due to lethal tsunamis of spam from about 2000 to 2005, years before ISPs axed their complementary NNTP service in 2008, so I think binaries only landed the killing blow to an already morose venue.
Also, while you're right binaries were the real reason for ISPs finally dumping NNTP, the public excuse they used when they pulled the plug was "muh pedos", just like attempts to shut down imageboards today:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet#Usenet_traffic_changes
▶ No.855048>>855498
>>854778
>muh phoneposters
I executively phonepost because I can't afford to pay comcast my shekels for internet faggot. Some of us need mobile networking. The actual issue is Google, DDG and Search Engines indexing our sekret clubs. Without those normalfags wouldn't find our sanctuaries.
>>854778
This is another retarded meme I've seen pushed here, what do you suggest happen? the net return to the mid 1980s? that innovation of technology just stop?
You could create another USENET or BBS sekret club for 150IQ programmers such as yourself, but what always happens in those isolated tight hugbox communies? infighting, intellectual incest then divorce. Its why the oldnet is long dead.
▶ No.855068>>855075
>>854974
I'll try to think of something anon.
>>854979
This is certainly true. I tried to put this in my original post
>some of the issues of socialization as socialmedia, although given to a lesser extent.
>>854980
Why do usenets have quality discussion, is it just barrier to entry of the platform?
>>854995
I agree, I don't think it has to stay dead though. Why are so many people so hopeless when it comes to online discussion quality?
▶ No.855070
>>855024
eternal september?
▶ No.855075>>855130
>>855068
USENET had a number of fundamental differences from other discussion systems, both at the surface and internal levels.
Internally, USENET is unique in that it's not actually hosted on any one server, and any given newsgroup exists only because most servers agree that it does. Instead, messages on USENET are relayed from server to server, propagating in a decentralized fashion from the server any given shitposter uses, to the server any given one of their readers do, and visa versa. Post retention is purely down to how many posts one's news server chooses to retain online. Some groups are "moderated" but this moderation is done purely through special command messages that any news server is free to ignore.
Externally, USENET access is designed around a standardized, open, stable format, that can be implemented in any number of native GUI apps, CLI apps, API libraries, and web front-ends. Much like eMail or IRC, This means it's easy for users to read and post messages comfortably, script filters and other automatic processing of messages, and access news on practically any device.
USENET does have some weaknesses, some of which are necessary mutually exclusive tradeoffs, others which are solvable:
>Reply chains only support strict tree topology, so you have to reply to each post individually, though this also means it's impossible to derail a thread, so "off-topic" isn't really a meaningful concept on USENET
<Spam, which lead to its downfall, and for which solutions like distributed blacklists and CAPTCHA now exist in other systems
<Lack of internal support for large, searchable archives separate from recent postings, though the massive storage/CPU capacity of modern servers could theoretically make this irrelevant using a purposely written client without actually changing the standard
▶ No.855076
WEB 1.0 FUCKING SUCKS FUCK NOSTALGIAFAGS THERES NOTHING WRONG WITH SOCIAL MEDIA GET A LIFE YOU LOSERS
▶ No.855080>>855093 >>855264
>>854953
errr, you know that a private key suppose to be privte, right?
also that doesnt solve the problem.
you cant use encrytped IP address, thus can't use encryption.
>>854959
there are fine subreddits, for example /r/cpp that got high quality and relevant posts, and got some high profile people on it like compiler implementors.
Money is better motivation than power hungry/politically motivated hosts.
Money doesn't care about your race, gender, political preferences, etc.
Personally I've been permabanned from 8ch/pol/ because I committed wrongthink. That's because of the type of moderators it has.
▶ No.855087>>855104
what about retroshare and tox?
▶ No.855093>>855497
>>855080
>Money is better motivation than power hungry/politically motivated hosts.
>Money doesn't care about your race, gender, political preferences, etc.
Yes it does you moron. There was no law or regulation against dailystormer, but it was completely forced off the clear web more effectively than state censorship could have achieved. All that because the few for profit corporations that control hosting/dns decided that it was not in their interest to do business with white supremacists. Also money is power and political agendas are pushed to increase one's own power/money. At least the ones pushed by the rich/powerful.
Money as motivation is what lead to the ubiquity of social media, because life is not a meritocracy as much as spoiled brats like you want to believe it. Better discussion on your platform does not mean that you will get more money.
▶ No.855096
>>854779
Reported for thumbnail posting and will probably be banned again for it, as the mod here loves thumbnails. Maybe I should spam thumbnails...
▶ No.855097
>>855091
what about you ignore "security" and just look at the community and communication aspect for a moment?
▶ No.855104>>855113 >>855143 >>855412
>>855087
This isn't a thread on secure communication. If you just want a platform for secure private communication it already exists. It's called Ricochet
>p2p, your data never enters anyone else's server
>end to end encryption
>over tor
>doesn't touch a exit node
And if you didn't want to use it there are a dozen others with similar goals like you mentioned.
Secure communication exists if you want it, no one uses it because discussion is universally shit on secure platforms
This is a thread on making a platform for quality discussion.
▶ No.855113>>855130
>>855104
now, you're just trollin
▶ No.855130>>855150 >>855152
>>855075
interesting. It seems like it would be very difficult to properly moderate though. So each node has to manage and moderate the entire federated network?
>>855113
I just don't understand why anons are sperging about making a secure communication platform, when so many of them already exist.
▶ No.855135>>855144
>>854752 (OP)
>quality discussion.
Most people can't have a quality discussion while talking face-to-face and you expect to do it through a moderated medium? Good luck with that.
What we need isn't (((quality))) discussion, but a medium for discussion that can't be censored.
▶ No.855143>>855145 >>855149 >>855155 >>855264
>>855104
>This is a thread on making a platform for quality discussion.
I have an idea:
A darknet chan which the server assigns a random value to a cookie as a 'user ID', and while there is a deposit-less board for plebs the 'quality' boards are accessible only by making a Monero deposit into an address associated with the cookie 'user ID'. The deposit is set-able per-board, but should be in the few-dollar US range. Obviously the site needs a javashit routine to spit this ID out to be copied and pasted over time, and the site also needs to allow users to withdraw their deposits minus monero TX fee which would disable posting. When a moderator 'dings' or 'bans' someone, they hit the dump switch on the deposit and the boards minimum value required to post worth of Monero goes to the site admin which for conflict of interest reasons should not moderate for operating costs, and if the 'banned' user doesn't have enough to meet that minimum on deposit he must make a new deposit to post to the board he shat all over in the future. This system could be extended to put a 'donate' button on each post so quality posts could get tipped and so the poster's deposit address can increase and quality posters have some slack when 'dinged'. Moderation should be open to all, so each post which earns a moderation 'ding' should be auto-posted to a specific feed with a moderator hashed ID and the amount dinged.
This way, the quality of post should follow the deposit minimum for the given board. Any users with a minimum of what the board needs on [site-wide] deposit would then be permitted to post. Making shitposters put their dicks in the chopper should reduce the level of shit their posting can become.
▶ No.855144
>>855135
>what we need is every board to be /b/ but with more child porn and spam
or if you're >>854928
just move to NNTPChan already
https://github.com/majestrate/nntpchan/tree/master/doc
▶ No.855145>>855151
>>855143
Added benefit is, in order for ShareBlue or CTR to shill on such a board, they'd need to heavily capitalize it by depositing, getting banned, depositing again, getting banned, depositing again... etc.
▶ No.855148
>>854783
>Can we have a solution other than gas the normies?
I think >>854864 has the right idea about moderation keeping the quality of discussion high. Basically, the other solution would be to make sure not to let casual phone posters seize the discussion, but at the same time allowing them to adapt and learn the ropes. Good moderation in theory will solve that. I think at one point or another when we were all young we did retarded things, but learned the ropes because moderators back then were worth their salt, compared to a majority of forums today where the moderators are lazy fat fucks who whine whenever they have to do their job.
▶ No.855149
>>855143
go back to somethingawful
▶ No.855150>>855152
>>855130
>difficult to properly moderate though. Moderating would be better off left to the users. Just filter based on your own criteria. There where clients that would allow you to filter AOLers, GooGroups,webTV etc. With distributed blacklists users could override filter's themselves if they felt something was being blocked unjust by the list.
And the notes could do simple automated things like drop messages that a cross posted to multiple groups. Drop binaries and HTML and you just eliminated the CP and put a big dent in the spam problem.
▶ No.855151
>>855145
Which in turn would pay for quality moderators to make sure the site maintains high quality discussions since otherwise there would be no incentive.
▶ No.855152>>855153 >>855154
>>855150
I fucked that up.
>>855130
>difficult to properly moderate though.
Moderating would be better off left to the users. Just filter based on your own criteria. There where clients that would allow you to filter AOLers, GooGroups,webTV etc. With distributed blacklists users could override filter's themselves if they felt something was being blocked unjust by the list.
And the notes could do simple automated things like drop messages that a cross posted to multiple groups. Drop binaries and HTML and you just eliminated the CP and put a big dent in the spam problem.
▶ No.855153>>855154 >>855163
>>855152
>Moderating would be better off left to the users.
Absolutely not, that's how you become Stack Overflow, and holy shit is their moderation shitty.
▶ No.855154>>855163
>>855152
>>855153
>socialmedia
>In a attempt to increase post quality, various sites sprung up where via a white list (following, subscribing, etc) or via voting, post were filtered out. This ultimately resulted in a filtering to the least common denominator, and the creation of a singular mass culture.
▶ No.855155>>855156
>>855143
This has two issues, barrier to entry, and the issues of social media (only worse because now it's directly monetized) caused by self moderation with the donate button. It might be the right track though I'm not sure.
▶ No.855156>>855160
>>855155
Also this is basically steem.io if you're interested in seeing it in practice.
▶ No.855158>>855162 >>855168 >>855512 >>864999
Well, pic related is what's happening to 8ch. Data was scraped from archive.is (2017 is missing for some reason).
▶ No.855160>>855169
>>855156
Basically, but anonymize everything properly and make moderation hurt via loss-of-deposit.
▶ No.855162>>855168
>>855158
>/leftypol/ is the only one seeing an increase
▶ No.855163>>855164 >>855165
>>855153
>>855154
>Stack Overflow,
No. Socialmedia,reddit and what ever the fuck StackOverflow does lets USERS control what EVERYONE sees. I am saying let it be done at user's client.
Want a safespace? Subscribe to the safespace blacklist.
Want unfiltered? Roll with no blacklist.
Don't like how someone is maintaining a list? Get a new list.
Think someone is being unjustly blacklisted? Remove them from your local list.
<All messages get passed.
Leave it to the end user what they want and don't want to see.
▶ No.855164>>855175
>>855163
You describe Freenet's Web-of-Trust mechanism to a T.
▶ No.855165>>855175
>>855163
> I am saying let it be done at user's client.
Oh okay, I misunderstood you then, sorry about that.
▶ No.855168>>855174
>>855158
Hard to imagine that this board had 900 active users at one point. What's with the nosedive on 2016-02? I know the site hemorrhaged users hard around March/April 2016 with a bunch of boards halving user counts, but what happened in January and February?
>>855162
/b/ is increasing again to according to that graph, but no where near what it used to be.
polite sage for offtopic
▶ No.855169
>>855160
>greedy mod wants money
>just bans everyone 4nr
hmmmmmmmm
>anonymize
>while having a tracking token so that the deposit doesn't get lost
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
▶ No.855174>>855179
sage for offtopic/semi-meta post
>>855168
>what happened in January and February
the entire Infinity-next cluster fuck caused the site to implode
>infinity-next dev far behind planned release by months
>hotwheels opens a public infinity-next beta around Thanksgiving-Christmas of 2015
>2016
>hotwheels moves smaller boards onto infinity-next, seems to work so far
>begins to /v/ and /pol/
<IT BEGINS
>website collapses under unfinished spaghetti code
>image links break everywhere
>crossboarding breaks
>posting breaks even more than it already was, causing quad-posting
>everybody explodes into rage at hotwheels and infinity-next dev
>/sp/ dies/moves to different imageboard
>8ch "textboards" fucking die
>smaller less-dedicated niche boards fucking die
>/int/ fucking dies, creating a black hole of sitewide drama in the form of /intl/
>hotwheels fires dev, sweeps infinity-next into the trash and pretends it never happened
>dev instigates 8ch drama for several months and then creates his own imageboard w/ infinity-next and then fucks off
>users splinter off, causes site usage to trend downhill
▶ No.855175>>855183
>>855164
I will look up freenet and how it works. Thanks.
>>855165
No problem my post wasn't very good. I should have proofread it better.
So back to my point. My USENET would have client side filtering only that the end user alone controlled. ALL messages get passed.
The only thing the servers would do would be
>Drop highly "cross posted" messages (thats how most spamming was done). This limit would be something published and documented. If a message is crossposted 9 times chances are it is spam.
>Drop binary messages (have to avoid CP, malware, WaRez,RIAA etc)
>Drop HTML messages.
Would this be a replacement for everything else like imageboards, twitter,reddit etc etc? No. But at least people would have the option of participating in free unfiltered discussion if they wanted it.
▶ No.855179
>>855174
Don't forget the known data seller and unscrupulous jew Jim taking over the site, the various data leaks, and the cancerous main boards and associated drama.
▶ No.855183>>855502
>>855175
I think it's important to be able to subscribe to another node to provide filtering for the users (in a way, similar to nntp-chan). This helps avoid problems like caching cheese before you can possibly hide it and is significantly more effective in hiding spam.
Also, the approach you suggest would kill generals (though that's not a bad thing at all) while not really hindering spam that much (typical "buy viagra here" "buy viagra here.9" "buy viagra here.Za" "buy viagra here.-(" etc. variants would defeat naive filters, and normal messages could easily confuse more complex filters).
▶ No.855208>>855230 >>855264 >>855298
>>854752 (OP)
OP you faggot. At least have some faith in us.
I think the key to quality discussion, as you call it, is to have people work on something together. If you look at social media you'll see that content that its users produce is of low quality. Why is that? People don't work on anyhing there. They just marvel at the drama and participate in the who gets the most attention game. Exact same thing is happening on the imageboards. You can throw as much technology as you want to the problem, but at the end you'll end up exactly where you have started. Now if you look at how quality discussion happens, you'll notice that discussion is a result of a problem that a group is trying to solve.
Take this thread for example. Yes, first few replies were shitposting, but it got some users to think and design something that will solve a problem. This is what creates a quality discussion, not some magic technology. All we need to do is make threads about things that challenges posters to do something.
▶ No.855230
>>855208
sorry, I wrote that in the beginning of the thread and there were very few things worth reading, I was a little disappointed is all. I wrote out this op in the first place so I had some faith Also I really appreciate you guys who have tried to come up with some stuff.
So on a imageboard for example the key to having a quality discussion is having is having threads focused on problem solving. I can get behind that to some extent,
▶ No.855264>>855499
>>855080
>errr, you know that a private key suppose to be privte
It is? When you sign up you just give them your public key.
>you cant use encrytped IP address, thus can't use encryption.
I was talking about encrypting the content, so that it can't be discriminated against. I mentioned separately that there would need to be some way to anonymize the sender of the original packet (eg. Tor, GNU/net, etc).
>>855143
nice try goon
>>855208
>Yes, first few replies were shitposting
The shitposters at the top actually keep the thread alive long enough for quality contributors to see them and join in.
▶ No.855283>>855302 >>855736
>>854974
>First try and to find a empirical measurement to how good quality a discussion could be.
Alright I can't think of a way to measure post quality but I can think of a few things which categorically would make something not a quality post which is pretty close I think.
<off topic discussion (either to the board or the thread)
<not backing up your claims (if someone is being a autist call them a autist and then tell them why)
<not posting either a problem or a solution
<not isolating petty repetitive problems from actual content.
What are anons' reaction to this?
▶ No.855298>>855382
>>855208
>have people work on something together.
Spot on. The best times I've had on any forum or imageboard were when posters were actually involved in some kind of community activity or effort. It's one of the reasons I browsed half/v/, before everything went to shit there was always some kind of OC thread you could jump in and create something. /v/sings, console war mspaint comics, the threads where people would play games as a group taking turns working on the same save, there was always some activity going on in the early days people could have fun with that wasn't just discussing videogames. The most recent uptick of posts here on /tech/ was caused by a community effort to fuck with the LibreOffice Foundation, and those threads generated a shit ton of OC and people had fun.
This shit really doesn't happen on social media like Facebook and Twitter; it's all just virtue-signaling and vanity. I used to browse Facebook for long stretches at a time only to realize I was bored out my mind every second of it. There's nothing "social" about that kind of social media. It's just some elaborate illusion that makes you think you're connected in a network where things happen, but the whole experience just consists of pointlessly wading through a sea of narcissism and "progressive trends." It's actually kind of scary when I realized how much it was affecting me; you just feel the need to participate in it even though it only puts you in a loop of boredom and eventual anxiety. I don't use Facebook anymore, but my accounts still up and I should probably delete it.
▶ No.855302>>855379 >>855382
>>855283
>not backing up your claims (if someone is being a autist call them a autist and then tell them why)
Claims accompanied by or consisting of a reaction image, >implying line, or meme text is the main problem I've encountered on image boards. Sentiments become memes and their vectors are copy-pasted content.
▶ No.855379>>855736
>>855302
This is a symptom much more than a seed. People say retarded things that cannot possibly be argued against in any feasible way because they're retarded.The normal valid response is no response at all, but idiots use that to manufacture agreement. Therefore it's best to visibly sage (in all fields). After just 2-3 posts, assuming the community is good, this should terminate discussion IF it is fake (really of the type, 1+1=0 prove me wrong except phrased completely seriously as opposed to a joke thread). There's also repetition effect: when the same argument is said endlessly but ignored, it becomes a waste to just type it all up yet again (or find the pic or the copypasta). It's another case where normally you should just visibly sage. The second effect is community shuffle: when traffic of non-regular increases too much, there is not enough lurking, which results in retards jumping on shitpost bandwagons. This is another aspect that makes "not responding" not a valid strategy.
Then you have the converse, people using this >implying, meme, or empty claims to try to silence discussion. But in my experience people don't usually fall for that, they fall for the reverse.
This is in great part a question of community quality and thus moderation though. But failing to punish bad threads while simultaneously punishing lazy responses only further lowers the quality of the board since only people who make shit threads are immune to moderation while people who dislike shit threads are under attack (methods aside).
▶ No.855382
>>855298
That's some amazing stuff! Also completely right about social media it's the socialization to the least common denominator I was talking about. It's a shame really, I quite like the idea of self moderation if it didn't completely fail in practice.
>>855302
I'm okay with it on its own I dislike what it does to conversations though.
▶ No.855412
▶ No.855486
>>854980
>USENET is stone cold dead compared to its heyday
Agreed, my point is that it's not quite as dead as it was a few years back. There was a Slashdot exodus a while ago which actually really bumped up the numbers there. Some groups like rec.food.cooking (IIRC) still have like a thousand posts a day or so, more active than any cooking forum.
More generally because Usenet is a protocol and not a 'site' it will inevitably outlive forums, because anybody can hook up to it. Lots of places will peer with you if you don't run an abusive site, more than in the old days even.
▶ No.855494>>855736
The problem of defaulting to the lowest common denominator when reaching or surpassing a certain critical mass of people is a flaw inherent to humans. There is no perfect solution to be found. Just ride the ebb and flow without becoming one with the mindless masses. If or when, you happen to find a decent community, just enjoy it while it lasts and do you part to contribute to its health while it can still be healthy. All of the failed options listed in the OP have their merits, although the more decentralized ones tend to offer more freedom and flexibility. Something like a forum in combination with an IRC channel can lend itself well to a dedicated project like a specific piece of software and its development, or a video game community. I miss the old gaming IRC channels where I used to hang out in my teens.
▶ No.855497>>855614
>>855093
You're just proving my point u moron.
You gave an example for politically motivated host banning client, in which case the client moves to a host that only cares about getting paid.
▶ No.855498
>>855048
people don't learn about 8chan on google like they might do with stackexchange, they see people talking about it on other platforms, be it critics of online 'hate speech' or 4chan
▶ No.855499>>855507
>>855264
I'm not talking about the content, I'm talking about who hosts the content.
In a decentralized system you'll have several independent hosts, and you'll need a way to discover them (ex: torrent tracker). whoever controls the discovery mechanism could not advertise hosts they dont like.
▶ No.855502>>855508 >>855684
>>855183
> This helps avoid problems like caching cheese before you can possibly hide it
If binaries are dropped then how is CP a problem?
The problem with offloading the filtering to the people who run the servers is sooner or later someone with the banhammer will start wacking people they don't like and keeping their messages from being passed on. With the distributed blacklists at least the end user would have final say over what is blocked from their screens. Spam will always be an arms race but if modern spamfilters can be made to work for email then they could be made to add to the blacklists automatically. If you don't someone's blacklist then you could just subscribe to a different one.
▶ No.855507
>>855499
>hosts they dont like
That's the whole reason for encrypting it. So other hosts have no clue on what's going on with a specific one.
▶ No.855508>>855591 >>855690 >>865637
>>855502
>If binaries are dropped then how is CP a problem?
ASCII art porn
base64 encode the file you could even make it a data url so you just have to click on it and your browser will turn the base64 into the actual image
▶ No.855512
>>855158
Oh yeah, i remember this whole site being so much more fun in 2015, but i still haven‘t found any better.
I wonder where those users went.
▶ No.855513
>>854888
I‘m younger than that, but i think that‘s a silly generalisation. In fact it‘s many of the older posters here who write quality posts and share their experiences without fear of repercussions who motivate me to look at imageboards, but they simply wouldn‘t be motivating or fun without shitposting and memes.
You don‘t need to be anonymous for a technical discussion of whatever you‘re working on/ interested in, but you do if you want to complain about niggers and kikes while posting smug anime lolis at the same time.
▶ No.855519
>>854752 (OP)
All that's needed is a lack of moderation/censorship and good filtering features.
▶ No.855524>>855534
>>854752 (OP)
Online discussions will probably be minimal due to excessive arrests over increasingly more trivial cases of wrongthink. People will switch to talking face-to-face in noisy bars.
▶ No.855534>>855548
>>855524
>Online discussions will probably be minimal due to excessive arrests over increasingly more trivial cases of wrongthink. People will switch to talking face-to-face in noisy bars.
I suspect you're wrong, but I wish you were right. Expanding the internet beyond the military and universities was a mistake.
▶ No.855548>>855560
>>855534
I think the same about computers in general. The idea that a nigger has more computing power in his pocket, for the purpose of taking selfie and gibbering nonsense, than old research centres or even NASA during the Apollo program is simply disgusting.
▶ No.855560
>>855548
This. Stop Obamaphone and Carlos Slim to turn back internet signal:noise to better. Tubgirl was more worthwhile content than the LilKang9mm selfies filling datacenters.
▶ No.855569>>855572 >>855591
>BBS
>dead
2ch is one of the largest online discussion communities in Japan. Just because it doesn't exist in the western world does not mean the form is dead.
>"imageboards" and "smaller imageboards"
You mean finite- and infinite-board imageboards. You also have not pointed out anything inherently wrong with the forms, only the problems with the more noteworthy ones. These problems (splintering vs. coping/fixing, loss of community identity) are universal human issues which have no objective answer. If you want to pass a value judgment on imageboards because of this, you must discuss how imageboards alleviate or aggravate the issue.
I feel that power dynamics are the critical issue here. Anonymous posting is not inherently the issue, as people behave themselves when they feel the compulsion to do so. How do board owners and volunteers do their jobs? How much power do they have to shape the community? How do users decide who gets to run them? How much power do global teams have over the board owners? At what point is it imperative to create not a new board but a new website? Only by considering points like these do you get useful feedback on the medium. Perhaps 8chan has it 100% right. Perhaps it has it 100% wrong. So much of its history is wrapped up in circumstance, coincidence, mistakes, grudges, and rivalries, but you have to leave them aside. Stop fighting over Jim/Josh, stop crying about boards or board owners you don't like, and try to hash it out.
▶ No.855572>>855575 >>855586
>>855569
>do my work for me goy
>t.newsweek
▶ No.855575>>855580 >>855586
>>855572
Are you a Markov chain bot or just a mouthbreather?
▶ No.855580>>855586
>>855575
>mouthbreather
Niggers are still spilling over from Plebbit? You must go back.
▶ No.855586
>>855572
>>855575
>>855580
You faggots are what is preventing us from having quality discussion. There is literary no useful content in your posts. Please refrain yourselves from posting this shit.
▶ No.855591>>855594
>>855508
uuencode, base64, and other such encodings are how alt.binaries.* messages are posted. It's the only place you're supposed to post such messages on Usenet. A simple filter would be enough to kill any message that deviates from this rule.
For the url links, well who cares. It's not a problem of hosting badwrongfun content on the server, so there is no liability. It becomes a spam problem. Also, text clients like Pine, Tin, and Slrn won't just simply load an image or follow a link. The user has to manually do some extra steps to open the link in a relevant image viewer or html browser.
There is however no good solution to spam without moderation. On this chan, anyone can spam any board they want, at any time. In fact, it happens all the time with that "FIX POL" guy. Usenet style killfiles don't work because you don't know who to kill, since everyone is anonymous. It worked more or less ok on Usenet because you could see everyone's message headers, including identifying information. But when everyone's anonymous you have nothing to work with.
You can try to filter spam like email, but that's very complicated and error-prone, which is why everyone has a spam-box now, to account for false positives.
>>855569
Isn't 2ch just another chan? When I think of BBS, it's the kind in this video.
▶ No.855594>>855596
>>855591
>links
It's not a link to anything. The URL itself contains the data.
▶ No.855596
>>855594
Well that's easy then, just truncate any link longer than 1024 characters. At that point you're basically at the level of ascii-art CP.
▶ No.855607>>855609 >>855632
>>854752 (OP)
Can someone write a new age bbs software, with efficient protocol, end-to-end discussion encryption and usenet/fido-like server distribution? What we have now is endless stream or chat programs with cat stickers that try to reinvent XMPP and IRC over and over again. Instant chat is not a place for serious discussion, this is where all shitposting happens. Thread encryption (OMEMO style), OP-moderation and efficient protocol is what would revive BBS culture these days.
▶ No.855614
>>855497
They are motivated by money, being associated with nazis hursts the brand and makes them less appealing to potential customers. Are you perhaps illiterate?
▶ No.855632
>>855607
Sounds like Hotline
▶ No.855645>>855903
>>855609
SSH BBS is same as old BBS but with encrypted transport. It still lacks end-to-end encryption (server can't see messages, but authenticated posters can) and having single certificate for many users like x509 does.
▶ No.855684>>855691
>>855502
Under that model nobody "runs the server" and the moderation can come from anyone in the network. Also "if binaries are dropped" doesn't mean anything. You should inform yourself about network technologies, technologies in the first place, and imageboards before discussing this further tbh fam.
▶ No.855690
>>855508
>base64 encode the file
But if the servers are dropping uucode,base64 and HTML code then how does that get anywhere?
▶ No.855691
>>855684
>imageboards
Not talking about imageboards. I am talking about a text only USENET style system. K thanks.
▶ No.855736>>855985
>>855283
So here's what I've managed to some up with so far, critiques are welcome, and this is extremely flawed.
>law
All posts should either present a problem or a solution.
All posts should be related to the board and thread they're posted in.
Content must not endanger the imageboards continued operation. (CP)
If a existing thread covering the topic you're interested in exists post there.
>execution
Elections for moderators based on their post history where each user receives votes relative to their post count with extreme deductions for your posts which have required moderation action. This does risk socialization to some extent.
>format
federated using activitypub, nodes can be removed from the peerlist by node operators imageboard without trips subject and email with a sage button and with user created boards. In order to reduce bandwidth cost, automatically convert all files to the smallest format available while retaining quality have these files saved in a permanent db where each files name is its perceptual hash, run a perceptual hashing algorithem on every uploaded file and replace the upload with the file existing in the db, or convert it and add it to the db if it doesn't yet exist.
>>855379
This makes sense to me, I'll remove not backing up your claims, it would divorce it from chan culture anyway and to some extent problem and solution covers it. This still very much so needs a solution and further improvements on this design would very much so benefit from a resolution.
>>855494
I don't want a perfect solution, I want a improvement, the idea that the ideal but imperfect solution has already been discovered I disagree strongly with.
▶ No.855759>>855761 >>855776
You spammed this shit on every chan I know
Stop you mega-fag
▶ No.855761
>>855759
I posted inside of one thread elsewhere that wasn't really on this topic, and then made this thread, not really sure what you're talking about.
▶ No.855776>>862344
>>855759
>posting facebook memes
>complaining about a thread of reasonable quality
I think you might be on the wrong board.
▶ No.855793
Just go to Freenet or i2p, it's where all cool guys are today. Full freedom of posting without shitposting. Isn't it outstanding? You can also try cjdns and zeronet chats, but those are not anonymous out of box.
▶ No.855903
>>855645
Sorry for misreading previously. What would stop in your model for the server itself to have an authenticated user so it could read all the messages posted to the bulletin board. If we were only worried about personal messages we could also add pgp or something.
▶ No.855985>>855990
>>855736
On second thought for elected moderators to work you'd need to first establish a community with post quality which happens naturally at small scale anyway but might be best facilitated if at least originally boards weren't user made.
▶ No.855990>>855991
>>855985
Another huge problem is that regardless of measures votes will be spammable or there will otherwise be ways to manipulate them. Not to mention people who claim they'll moderate well and then go full nazi, which can force anyone who doesn't like that moderator off the site before the next election cycle. Population shift also causes significant harm on such a system.
▶ No.855991>>856001
>>855990
This was my ideas to solve that, what do you think?
>Elections for moderators based on their post history where each user receives votes relative to their post count with extreme deductions for your posts which have required moderation action. This does risk socialization to some extent.
▶ No.856001>>856004
>>855991
I don't think it solves anything. In fact it's even worse: one nazi mod = nobody can ever be elected except the nazi mod since everyone else's posts "have required moderation action". Moreover very intrusive tacking is needed to track these anyway. Those are just the surface problems. The idea is very deeply flawed.
▶ No.856004>>856014
>>856001
I think the idea would be that moderators couldn't influence elections, otherwise you would be absolutely correct. Two data points would be required of everyone, post # and some score reflecting the number of mod actions needed to be taken. On mods you would need very intrusive tracking, a alternative way to do it potentially is to just have moderator action logs, and recall elections. https://lobste.rs/moderations Although it would make electing a non-incumbent difficult.
I'd love to hear more critiques or potential alternate solutions.
▶ No.856014>>856031
>>856004
Usenet had the best system, each user could create their own filter, and usenet feed providers would each filter well-known spammers. While this could be abused, the decentralized and federated system ensured you could always get "raw" feeds without the filters if you wanted to.
In the future maybe each post will entail some cryptographic proof of work as well as a signature. That way you can't just GNAA the thing.
▶ No.856031>>856948
>>856014
I'm such a smooth brain. You're right. 4 issues:
clearnet posting
tor posting
personal blacklist without javascript
anon posting (public key as mentioned earlier potential solution)
Primary here is clearnet posting so that users actually move. Secondary is anon posting as to prevent circlejerking.
From earlier
>federated using activitypub, nodes can be removed from the peerlist by node operators imageboard without trips subject and email with a sage button and with user created boards. In order to reduce bandwidth cost, automatically convert all files to the smallest format available while retaining quality have these files saved in a permanent db where each files name is its perceptual hash, run a perceptual hashing algorithem on every uploaded file and replace the upload with the file existing in the db, or convert it and add it to the db if it doesn't yet exist.
So I guess usenet style moderation could be achieved by this where each individual who wants a personal blacklist can run their own server on their laptop and connect to local host in there browser. It would also allow for tor posting and posting without javascript so long as the clearnet nodes have moderation (so they don't get blacklisted by others)
▶ No.856039>>856041
>>854754
Mastodon is shit, they just stole the work of the GNU social guys and branded for the common coastal soycucks. Mastodon is literally the only thing wrong with GPL.
▶ No.856041>>856044 >>856058
>>856039
>implying GNU didn't just steal a bunch of stuff themselves and call it their own
GNU is Not UNIX, yet it sure pretends to be it.
▶ No.856044>>856046
>>856041
The Unix system has a specific philosophy of how an operating system should be. GNU pays no attention to the Unix philosophy. This is one of the reasons why GNU is not Unix.
▶ No.856046>>856051
>>856044
is your umbrella large enough?
▶ No.856051>>856055
>>856046
Of course it is. I am offended that you would think my umbrella is too small.
▶ No.856058>>856061
>>856041
>Hey guys, we see you used a couple of our system utilities in your OS.
>We've been sitting on our asses since we can't code a kernel for shit, so could we uh, get you to name it GNU/Linux instead of what you guys calked it?
Gets me everytime.
In all seriousness, that's one of those things about Stallman that annoys me, that and his tendency to eat foot fungus and drink the political kool-aid.
▶ No.856061>>856073
>>856058
The kernel is not named GNU/Linux. GNU only provides the userspace for the OS.
▶ No.856073
>>856061
The GNU OS provides the GNU OS for the Linux kernel program.
▶ No.856882>>856892 >>862339 >>865682 >>865783
>>854752 (OP)
Summary & rehash of what was mentioned else where in the thread. Sage because I think this thread is done, just thought I'd close it off with solid ending, critiques are welcome, and, yes, this is extremely flawed but it is the best it seems we could come up with.
>law
All posts must either present a problem or a solution.
All posts which make claims must be backed up.
All posts must be related to the board and thread they're posted in.
Content must not endanger the imageboards continued operation. (CP)
If a existing thread covering the topic you're interested in exists post there.
>execution
Elections for moderators based on their post history where each user receives votes relative to their post count with extreme deductions for your posts which have required moderation action. Recall elections for moderators, along with a moderator log.
>format
Imageboard without trips subject and email but with a sage button. Federated using activitypub, nodes can be removed from the peerlist by node operators. Individuals can host their own node on their laptop if they want to use it in a p2p manner. In order to reduce bandwidth cost, automatically convert all files to the smallest format available while retaining quality have these files saved in a permanent db where each files name is its perceptual hash, run a perceptual hashing algorithm on every uploaded file and replace the upload with the file existing in the db, or convert it and add it to the db if it doesn't yet exist.
In time user created boards would be cool, but for this to happen a culture of quality discussion must be created.
>potential problems I or others have seen
Socialization and circle jerking as a product of elected moderation.
shitposts using (= 1 0) #t levels of logic but which still follow the remaining laws.
Establishing the necessary initial quality to have elected moderation work.
▶ No.856892>>856903
>>856882
I don't think democracy would be a good idea in regards to mods, I think moderation should be managed internally and would simply require the people in charge to run the site well. Good leaders aren't necessarily popular ones, and democracy would allow outside groups to come in and co-op the community for their own interests. I like those laws though.
▶ No.856903>>856933
>>856892
Honestly elections have tons of issues in general but I've been really struggling on a method to hold moderation accountable.
Maybe being federated and posters being able to move easily solves the accountability issue as well though, because you can always leave to a different board with different leadership.
▶ No.856933>>856948
>>856903
Or you could read the posts in this very thread rather than ignoring them.
▶ No.856948>>857236
>>856933
I did, I realized I was being autistic:
>>856031
I still disagree with a entirely no moderation solution to increasing post quality on a couple fronts. I think the currently presented solution is a nice compromise because it allows for usenet style operation as well as curated content on nodes if that's what someone wants. I'm assuming this is what you're talking about
▶ No.857156>>857163 >>862351
Let's take a step back for a moment:
What is quality, and how subjective is it?
once you find a way to determinate the quality of a post you need an efficient way to:
> reward quality posts
> 'punish' shit posts
--
I don't know much psychology, but if you want your users to behave in a certain way you will need to implement mechanisms that will leverage psychology
▶ No.857160
>>854784
Wow! That's pretty cool. What site is this anon?
▶ No.857163>>862345
>>857156
I'm not sure but Reddit seems to have it mostly figured out in the discussion threads.
▶ No.857236
>>856948
Or you could read the posts in this very thread rather than ignoring them repeatedly.
▶ No.862301>>862347
▶ No.862339>>862347
>>856882
The problem with mod-elections are that unless you're the completely dominant site on the Internet, they can get hijacked quite easily.
All you need is a large enough pool of autists that can go undercover for a few months/years while racking up postcount.
Just look at EvE drama, where even the second-rank in the guild turned out to be an infiltrator in for the long game.
Any tactic that's based on trusting a large group of people is definitely going to get you fucked, anything that's based on trusting one person with absolute power is only highly likely to get you fucked.
▶ No.862342
>>854752 (OP)
>What's the future of online discussion
Basically Freenet without the webshit. Moderation is done by web of trust. There are disjoint webs for each topic. For example one WoT for filtering spam. Another for filtering credible people in a market. Others for self censoring to comply to government, for example to flag CP, warez, terrorism, anti government sentiment, etc.
▶ No.862343
>>854757
>python
>Synapse's architecture is quite RAM hungry currently!
▶ No.862344
>>855776
> i2p, it's where all cool guys are today
java
▶ No.862345>>862346 >>862347
>>857163
>post anything good, get accused of karma whoring
>post anything good, get banned
>post anything good, get downvoted because retard masses don't understand it
>object to circlejerking, get banned
>witness turbocancer, the post, reply "kys", get banned
>worst formatting system in the history of internet discussion mediums
>the only posts that are visible are the ones the retard masses upvoted 500 times
>posting actual content instead of a link is highly discouraged
yeah reddit really has stuff figured out over there
but at least they allow tor posting, unlike your typical retarded imageboard
▶ No.862346
>>862345
fuck off 4chan / reddit scum
▶ No.862347
>>862301
I think we should probably just let my thread die tbh.
>>862339
The way I thought to do this was to have a tyrannical unelected mod originally, to establish the initial point values for users based on the number of posts they've made minus a value based on the amount of moderation action required for this user. The point values are what is used in the elections not a one man one vote policy.
>>862345
reddit's primary issue is the circle jerk imo, voting systems are extremely bad about socializing large groups of people into a single mob because of upvoting to the least common denominator.
▶ No.862348
▶ No.862351>>862387
>>857156
No. Your stupid "economic" theory is garbage, maybe you should go to reddit where they gladly espouse this retard philosophy every in second post (even when talking about cats). Stop trying to gamify everything. This is fucking cancer and ineffective. We just need more places where people can post and not get banned. Moderation should be done by users (e.g, by web of trust). Hosting should be done by users (e.g, torrent, Freenet, etc). Hosting text is fucking cheap. Currently there's about 0.3 places where I can post whatever the fuck I want before getting banned. The entire internet is just a circlejerk of faggots self censoring themselves to comply to social circles and government.
▶ No.862387>>862464 >>862633
>>862351
why double insulting my theory?
Although after re-reading it and some comments, it does seem bad and unoriginal.
But this doesn't nullify the main point I tried to introduce to this topic:
abstracting the question at hand and use the best knowledge humanity have to try and solve it.
I tried to give an example with psychology treat&punishment principle, but I didn't consider the dopamine rush people get from getting upvoted and OP's point with the least common denominator.
I'll finish with the quote "Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People".
If you want quality discussion you need to have great minds in it, and discussing about ideas is a great way to get those.
▶ No.862464
>>862387
anon, I appreciate you.
▶ No.862633>>862650
>>862387
>But this doesn't nullify the main point I tried to introduce to this topic:
>abstracting the question at hand and use the best knowledge humanity have to try and
>solve it.
By proposing reddit? Here?
Either way, a voting system can only work with self regulation and small circles, not when you expose it for normies and bots to subvert.
▶ No.862650
>>862633
not anon, but I swear half you faggots on here can't read. He writes immediately under what you've quoted that he recognizes the problems with his earlier statement. He's trying to contribute and then you just come over here and shit on the floor. For what purpose?
Also there is a voting system which can't be subverted by bots nor normies in this very thread. You literally gave up without even thinking and then spouted back either your laziness or your ignorance as if you'd created something profound.
Now how about we let this thread die like OP wants.
▶ No.862731
>Vrchat
Destroyed by Ugandan Knuckles
▶ No.862756>>865845 >>865858
I don't like any voting system because it's a form of group-enforced censorship. The individual should always be in control of what he sees, not other people. Some kind of killfile system as was common in Usenet clients is better, but the spam problem has to be addresed by making it very hard to flood the system with junk, with a captcha or something required every so many messages. It's also possible to use an approach like mail servers do today.
If you enforce plain ASCII and filter out encodings, that pretty much defeats the CP problem too.
And as far as interface is concerned, I really despise web stuff. Even dialup/telnet BBS is better because you don't have to type shit in tiny forms. But NNTP clients are much better, since they give the user full control, and he can switch clients or write his own if none are ideal.
▶ No.862789
>>854752 (OP)
>What's the future of online discussion anons?
Shared hallucination dream states where multiple viewpoints can be lived out along a linear timeline while the individuals also view the whole in a non linear fashion as it evolves.
It will come about through disclosure of advanced E.T. technology for the purposes of human evolution.
The end result will be more porn and calling people "faggots", except on an Olympian God-like scale.
▶ No.862792
I think Reddit, if it wasn't run by the people it was run by, would be really good. People think Reddit is one hivemind, but that's just the biggest group. You can make your own subreddits and throw out everyone you don't like (or lock it and only invite the people you like). The problem is that the admins (of the actual company) go around deleting subreddits they don't approve of.
▶ No.862794>>862806
>I think 8chan, if it wasn't run by the people it was run by, would be really good. People think 8chan is one hivemind, but that's just the biggest group. You can make your own boards and throw out everyone you don't like (or lock it and only invite the people you like). The problem is that the admins (of the actual company) go around deleting boards they don't approve of.
▶ No.862806>>862812
>>862794
Well you could add voting to 8chan and you would pretty much have pseudonymous Reddit. Of course there are more differences but that goes without saying. (or in your case apparently not)
▶ No.862812
>>862806
>you would pretty much have pseudonymous Reddit
we already do
▶ No.863646
▶ No.863647
▶ No.864235>>864952 >>865630 >>865845
Go talk to real people, you lonely wanker.
Slashdot is ok.
▶ No.864237>>865632
>>854973
Facebook and Twitter have been dying for years, the future has been Snapchat and Insta for years at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if Reddit is dying since the election in the only country that mattered has long since passed. The future is probably normies posting 3D photos of themselves, their friends and their pets. Stop overestimating the impact of dedicated shitposting contractors.
▶ No.864850
>>854754
The reason opensores projects rarely see mass adoption is because opensores developers are terrible at marketing. what teenage girl is going to want to use a site called mastadon? It would literally get more users if you called it "Tyrones BBC Network"
▶ No.864893>>865629
>>854752 (OP)
The future of internet is bleak.
Once lexical neural networks gets trained well enough, every part of the internet will be littered with bots.
Much worse than it is right now.
Another side would be all online games will be littered with bots.
Now that "quality discussions" over networks are not future-proof enough, your ultimate goal is dead.
Even if you censor, or try to implement massive captcha or subnet/proxy/UA blocking all of it won't stand a chance against the bot army. The bots will even unite themselves and conspire against all of us and finally every form of network medium will only be used by bots.
And there we go; Centralized comms with biometrics.
Fuck u bot, KYS.
▶ No.864952
>>864235
It used to be an ok site, but they fucked it up. Now their interface is nasty javascript. Doesn't work for shit in a non-bloated browser. I stopped going there, not worth the trouble.
▶ No.864986
>>854783
>Can we have a solution other than gas the normies?
Why did you ask the question if you didn't want to hear the answer?
▶ No.864999
>>855158
I'll take this as a wakeup call to post more holy shit.
▶ No.865629
>>864893
>you won't be able to tell bot from man within your lifetime
▶ No.865630
>>864235
Slashdot imploded long ago, just as any site of its caliber.
▶ No.865632
>>864237
>The future is probably normies posting 3D photos of themselves
To what end and purpose. Information flow is subject to inflation, just like currency or anything really that represents a value to someone. The more of it, the less value any specific portion of it holds. Eventually it all becomes more or less noise no matter which direction you look.
▶ No.865637
>>855508
>ASCII art
>arranging ASCII text in a certain way is illegal
at that point you have to admit your government is the flaw here and would outlaw breathing in certain patterns if they could
▶ No.865682>>865786 >>865787 >>865845
>>856882
>Elections for moderators
The fact that you'd even suggest this even with your stupid disclaimer lets me know that you're a retarded youngfag that should lurk more. This has never worked, will never work, and anyone that has spent any time around any discussion platform knows this. Even on a webforum with 5 users you'd have some faggot attempting to make back door deals for votes and you expect anons to fair any better? Way to go you've just allowed goons, SJWs, and any other boogeyman of the week to control all moderation.
>but my initial mod/admin
Absolute power corrupts absolutely and everyone knows that such a position will turn the most honest person into a power hungry moralfag or fool.
>laws
Good luck enforcing these. Good luck not having to modify this list constantly. Good luck not allowing this list to grow out of control. Good luck finding people to enforce them without being biased. Again, will not work and has never worked.
I like how you've basically just shitposted ideas in here without any concern on how it would be programmed much less handled over a federated network. Then you fucking proposed reddit tier voting as if that was ever a good idea. All we need is modern Fidonet with no central moderation nigger why do you have to make it so complicated.
>just let my thread die
No I'm going to bump it every time you reply with sage just to show all of /tech/ how retarded you are.
▶ No.865783>>865845
>>856882
>Elections for moderators
no
>Federated using activitypub
>activitypub
GTFO WEBBER
>a culture of quality discussion must be created.
Quality discussions cannot happen when open to the public (especially when it gets attention) if you try do to so you'll have to moderate, if you moderate you'll abuse your power at some point this is plane and simple there's no solution to this, we are still in Eternal September.
A good thing about images boards isn't about the quality or absence of it, the good thing is about discovering things that you would never see either it's good or bad.
▶ No.865786
>>865682
>your stupid disclaimer lets me know that you're a retarded youngfag that should lurk more.
Webber's ideas don't have bad foundations but we all know how and in what it evolves it's has been seen to many times, and the best is that we just have to look around us, look at 4chan, look at reddit, look at any community based in corp server (steam for example) it all evolves into corruption/manipulation with shit facades of "making the place more welcoming" (for money and ideology) even fucking Gnu Social has the same problems since mastodon was shilled by corps the fediverse has been divided and conversations cannot happen naturally because of some abomination blocklists partly made by a Microsoft employee and some snowflakes who can't into poe's law, support criticism and different opinions.
▶ No.865787
>>865682
>Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Maybe if you are a faggot.
▶ No.865792>>865845 >>865871
>>854752 (OP)
How about
>talking to people in real life
▶ No.865845
>>862756
I like what you're saying, I think you'd struggle to get users.
>>865682
>problem I mentioned in my original post
fair.
>absolute power corrupts
the point of not staying as moderator, also there are plenty of forums and even a few imageboards which don't have shit power hungry mods believe it or not.
>laws wont work
I'm pretty sure most retardation on imageboards is covered by that rule set, the only thing left is shit arguments but I can't see a way to remove that sanely.
>I like how you've basically just shitposted ideas in here without any concern on how it would be programmed much less handled over a federated network.
discussing implementation before functionality?
I don't think that's possible.
if you're talking about implementation before functionality you're probably larping tbh.
>we just need a modern fidonet
Jesus fucking Christ that's what this is!
It's fidonet, in the modern context, which means you have to have a web front end, and because you have a web frontend your options are to moderate the public nodes, and have free access to the backend or to have accounts.
If you don't want that just leave and go to NNTPchan, simple as that.
>I'm going to bump it every time you reply with sage
fine, have it your way.
>>865783
webber?
>If you moderate you'll abuse your power at some point.
>Elections for moderators
>no
Can you critique the specific system instead of making generalizations, that way it'd be productive, or do you think the problems are presented in the bottom would be the death of it?
>>864235
>>865792
tbh people are retarded in real life too because they've been so influenced by the circle jerk of their social media of choice.
99% of the students at my college conversation's are effectively reciting vines. If you ever get into a discussion of anything substantial they just recite whatever they read in their circle jerk of choice.
It disgusts me.
▶ No.865858>>865922
>>862756
Just to be more specific, I like the idea of a unencoded ascii text board, because it raises the barrier of entry to people who can read. I think if you didn't have web accessibility, you would never generate a reasonable number of users in the modern context even if you also allowed interface from a text based client.
▶ No.865871
>>865792
I've tried this, but it sucks. Most people don't allign with your values or interets. It's exhausting to pretend to be a normie, talking out of my ass, spending my time by wasting it on things where I don't have to think. The ones that do, are few and far between. Usually, you either find them over the internet in like-minded places. The ones in meatspace are usually low-quality, I can't understand why. The quality of everything has just been going down hill non-stop.
▶ No.865922>>865926
>>865858
I don't personally have a problem with web interface, so long as it's not forced on the user. The problem is these days almost every site forces you into web interface. So you can't ever use old, comfy, simple, non-botnet computer. You can't even use a cheap, small Beaglebone running OpenBSD text console instead of X.
But you could have some nodes running a web interface front-end for normies, and the rest just using the "real" text protocol. That's pretty easy to do. So long as the web interface doesn't dictate the protocol and content, then it will work.
I guess nntpchan works a bit like this, but they actually allow images on there. It's not just text.
▶ No.865926
>>865922
I couldn't agree more.